The White Tower - Seanchan Attack

[moratcorlm]

They do not use the name "Servants of All". They use the name "Aes Sedai", which can be translated as 'servants of all', but in practice never is.

 

Except that in The Shadow Rising Moiraine translates the phrase into 'Servants of All' during her discussion with the Wise Ones about the Old Tongue. They may not use the name but they sure as hell know that 'Aes Sedai' means Servant of All. You are obsessing over semantics.

Just going to prove my point. Pay attention to the tense she uses here.

And the words we have taken for common use, and never think of their meanings in the Old Tongue. Warders are called ‘Gaidin,’ which was ‘brothers to battle.’ Aes Sedai meant ‘servant of all.’

[Darth Krewl]

Does that make you an evil magician? Does it make me an ostrich tamer? Read my reply to gambril above, particularly the quotation from TSR.

 

How do you know that I'm no evil sorcerer? Which is not what the Sith are, btw...heh heh...or, how do I know that you're no ostrich tamer (thanks for the info, btw, I didn't know what your username stood for).

 

Now seriously, you can't compare a simple and informal internet handle with the official title/name an institution may choose for itself. That's two different things altogether. Here, people may choose their usernames in accordance to many factors, including perhaps, their real names. That's up to each one of us. But, in my case at least, I think it's pretty obvious that I like Star Wars and the Dark Lords of the Sith, in particular. So, while no real Sith Lord, obviously, my handle does say something about me, that is more accurate IMO, than those women calling themselves "Servants of All".

 

As for your comparison with the Aiel, yes, they too have clearly lost their way with time. But, IMO, that's due to the fact that knowledge of their true origins was kept hidden from them till Rand was at Rhuidean and disclosed the truth about their past to the entire Aiel. Aes Sedai on the other hand, while they have lost most of their knowledge from the AoL, do have plenty of information to have a vague idea, at least, of what that concept stood for. Besides, all I said in my previous post is that, should they not uphold the ideals conveyed by the term Aes Sedai, then all they have to do is find a new name for their order and avoid any confusions in the process, such as this one, for instance. ;-)

[Erunion]

@ wvlr2 - Hopefully Eggy is planning, and we just weren't shown it in this book.

 

@ Rest of thread -

 

The Aes Sedai need to change. They need to learn what it is to truly be a servant of all. This needs to happen, otherwise the Aes Sedai will not survive in the long term.

The Seanchan need to change. They need to realize that people are the same, whether high or low, channelers or non-channelers, and their entire society needs to be restructured.

 

Does anybody disagree with those two points?

 

The question remains, how will this happen? Will it happen at all? If it does happen, will it be at the White Tower? Who will be involved?

[David Selig]

The current age White Tower representatives call themselves Aes Sedai because that was the name of the organisation of channellers in the previous Age and it still gives them prestige and sense of continuity. They don't claim to serve all. The main goal of the organisation according to their statements is to fight the Shadow. Admittedly, they seem to be doing terrible at this lately, but this is beside the point.

 

Nobody in Randland expects them to be any sort of servants.

 

I am not a fan of the White Tower by any means, but I don't see how their crimes are comparable to those of the Seanchan. Sure, they meddle, they are arrogant and bossy, and their neglect of recruitment duty leads to a number of girls with the spark dying due to a luck of training. But leashing thousands of women, brainwashing them and turning them into trained pets to be used only as tools and weapons is far worse than anything the Tower had ever done in my book. Then there's the more ordinary slavery they practice, the aggressive wars they started and all that.

[James71]

‘servant of all’ is a very generic title.

 

Sure, it is the literal translation for "Aes Sedai". But that doesn't mean that every Aes Sedai has to become a literal "servant" to every person she meets during the course of a day.

 

The Aes Sedai of the current age take the three oaths. That is the bulk of what they are bound to do in order to carry the title of Aes Sedai.

1) Cannot lie, but they sure can twist their words

2) Cannot make weapons with the OP.

3) Defending self, warder or another sister with OP.

 

I am sure that any Blue Ajah member could make the argument that they are "servants of all" through their dedication to their causes.

Any member of the Red Ajah would say that they are "servants of all" by keeping the world safe from men who can channel.

Any member of the Green Ajah would say that their mission is to prepare as the Battle Ajah for the Last Battle, thus they are serving humanity to keep everyone safe.

Browns preserve and record knowledge.

etc, etc.

 

One person cannot fulfill all functions in life. We each specialize in what we do best.

 

There are any number of ways that the current Aes Sedai could claim they are "servants of all".

Each Ajah has a mission statement that they strive to achieve.

 

You can debate till the end of time whether or not they are effective at their mission statement.

 

But arguing about the title ‘servant of all’, and whether the current Aes Sedai deserve it, seems really trivial and pointless.

[Durinax]

I am not of fan of the White Tower by any means, but I don't see how their crimes are comparable to those of the Seanchan. Sure, they meddle, they are arrogant and bossy, and their neglect of recruitment duty leads to a number of girls with the spark dying due to a luck of training. But leashing thousands of women, brainwashing them and turning them into trained pets to be used only as tools and weapons is far worse than anything the Tower had ever done in my book. Then there's the more ordinary slavery they practice, the aggressive wars they started and all that.

yes but in the start of damane, they where imprisoning warlords, in a modern sense it would be like making gangsters and gang leaders slaves instead of killing them. So from that vantage it is a bit understandable.

 

‘servant of all’ is a very generic title.

 

Sure, it is the literal translation for "Aes Sedai". But that doesn't mean that every Aes Sedai has to become a literal "servant" to every person she meets during the course of a day.

 

The Aes Sedai of the current age take the three oaths. That is the bulk of what they are bound to do in order to carry the title of Aes Sedai.

1) Cannot lie, but they sure can twist their words

2) Cannot make weapons with the OP.

3) Defending self, warder or another sister with OP.

 

I am sure that any Blue Ajah member could make the argument that they are "servants of all" through their dedication to their causes.

Any member of the Red Ajah would say that they are "servants of all" by keeping the world safe from men who can channel.

Any member of the Green Ajah would say that their mission is to prepare as the Battle Ajah for the Last Battle, thus they are serving humanity to keep everyone safe.

Browns preserve and record knowledge.

etc, etc.

 

One person cannot fulfill all functions in life. We each specialize in what we do best.

 

There are any number of ways that the current Aes Sedai could claim they are "servants of all".

Each Ajah has a mission statement that they strive to achieve.

 

You can debate till the end of time whether or not they are effective at their mission statement.

 

But arguing about the title ‘servant of all’, and whether the current Aes Sedai deserve it, seems really trivial and pointless.

thoguht i would point out that the individual ajahs do nothing at all except sit and talk to each other. it is very very few individual sisters who do anything of worth. Not to mention the few who do leave the WT are often cloaked and hide their identity instead of assisting people as much as posible by being openly AS and offering services

[MattTaz]

Nice catch on Mat being "the centre of it all"

I think Egwene might go through a Tam Al'Thor phase of ToM where we see Jolyn/Teslyn show up in AMOL and

tell Egwene all about Mat & Tuon before she leaves for FoM.

Egwene may actually have the HoV and either refuses to let Mat have it (i.e. Tuon have it)

or use it to blackmail Tuon. Remember Rand binds the 9 moons to him. Binding sounds a bit rough shall we say

With Caemlyn, Talmanes is now 10 minutes ride from the city and is intent on protecting the Cannons. I dont think

Caemlyn will be occupied mainly because of these weapons not falling into the Shadows hands. Sacked yes, occupied no.

So many variables with this:

How well will the Kin fight? God I hope we see Hanlons death. Will the freed damane help?

How long was Mat in ToG. He was getting gateway'd by Grady at Noon I think, but what day?

Are the Legion of the Dragon still about? Their shield-fighting would be well suited for Caemlyn's narrow streets.

And just a roughy, Logain v Taim may be over by then. Shrugs, just dont know.

Elayne's Severed Hand is a good call as well. Geez RJ planned well in advance.

Just with Mat being the Supreme General, it depends on what sort of battle there is. Is it going to be all forces facing

each other or across a number of battlefronts. Outside the Pit of Doom or across the North?

I'm thinking/guessing Caemlyn's inner city saved, Cannons saved, but outer Caemlyn completely destroyed and either Talmanes's Band

nearly all killed or Olver dying. Mat walks the Halls of Mourning over Olvers death, The Bands destruction, or the thousands of Caemlyn citizens

that perished.

Tuon attacking and saving the WT from Trollocs and/or hopefully those red-veiled guys who can be gateway'd.

Still occupying the WT but agreeing to meet Rand at FoM. Egwene blackmailing Tuon into serving Rand

[Darth Krewl]

The current age White Tower representatives call themselves Aes Sedai because that was the name of the organisation of channellers in the previous Age and it still gives them prestige and sense of continuity. They don't claim to serve all. The main goal of the organisation according to their statements is to fight the Shadow. Admittedly, they seem to be doing terrible at this lately, but this is beside the point.

 

Well, personally, I don't recall having ever read that the organization residing within the White Tower is resorting to the use of the term Aes Sedai for the sole purpose of taking full advantage of the prestige it provides for them. I may be wrong, of course, but if that were the case, then I guess the use of the words "Aes Sedai" would be totally counterproductive, taking into consideration that the common folk certainly seem to dread the term, because of what it represented to them (the War of the Shadow, the Breaking of the World, etc.). So, if anything, the term "Aes Sedai" would not convey any sense of prestige. Quite the opposite, actually.

 

I also don't remember having read anywhere that the sole purpose of this organization was to fight the Shadow. But, if this was the case, then that certainly would represent a great service to all of the people of the Randland. The downside to this would be precisely their terrible performance in this sense, as you have wisely noted. Either way, I suppose it is safe to say that regardless of the reasons why these women decided to use the term "Aes Sedai" they have never even come close to live up to it.

 

Nobody in Randland expects them to be any sort of servants.

 

There's many ways to serve. The term "service" is very wide and ambiguous, it obviously doesn't apply to waiting tables or mopping floors exclusively.

 

As for the rest of your post, I don't think anyone has ever tried to claim that the ways of the Seanchan are better or worse than those of the White Tower. At least, I for one, have only been contesting that both these factions are getting in the way of unity and cooperation between the peoples of the world, at the brink of a colossal challenge facing them all. In the end, if the Shadow wins the day, it won't matter who hindered the side of the Light more. All that matters is what or whom got in the way and in that sense, the White Tower is, at this point, as much to blame as the Seanchan.

[Cillian]

It's very simple, one thousand years ago, woman channelers calling themselves Aes Sedai traveled across the ocean to Seandar and employed the same tactics in Seandar that Aes Sedai have been employing in Randland since the last Age ended. The only difference is, those woman who traveled across the ocean made a serious mistake and those people of Seandar wouldn't put up with their deceit and manipulation tactics. They got there due in Seandar and the Seanchan, whether rightly or wrongly, are determined to do the same thing in Randland and 'cleanse' them of these power hungry woman.

 

That's actually not how it happened. Aes Sedai had been on the continent of Seanchan since the Breaking & they weren't connected to the White Towere at all.

 

 

If anything, regardless of their culture and practices, like Mat...I admire the Seanchan for standing up to the Third Age's 'Aes Sedai' and saying, "No we will not put up with it and roll over like a docile lamb". This is what all the rulers of Randland, minus Hawkwing, have been doing through all of the Third Age and consequently, they are cowards. The Seanchan are not.

 

Cowardly or not, Randlanders didn't have a'dam to back them up.

[Frostmuse]

The Seanchan didn't know Trollocs existed until their General dropped some heads in front of Tuon. Seanchan have never encountered most shadowspawn and lived to tell about it. They had no idea the Forsaken were free until Tuon found out about Semirhage. Seanchan have little to no clue that the last battle is approaching, and not even the glimmer of an idea what to do about it. Their instruction manual is corrupt and I doubt they have any (accurate) left-over information from the Age of Legends to guide them. They probably don't even have a map that has Shayol Ghul on it. Seanchan's entire strategy consists of:

 

1) Collar all marath'damane

2) Make the Dragon kneel

3) ????

4) Win

 

In comparison, the White Tower is downright well-prepared. They tripped themselves up by not being ready to handle a male channeller that they couldn't gentle, and got caught totally off guard for the whole, "yeah, the world is ending in the next five years" situation. But at least they know they're supposed to fight the Last Battle with some idea what they're facing. Seanchan... not so much.

 

Granted, Aiel and Seafolk have the same problem, neither had anything in place for dealing with the end of the world, their prophesies just getting them to the point where Rand can use them, and Shara... who knows.

 

So White Tower may not be the most awesome bastion of Light, but it's the least bad one for purposes of facing Tarmon Gai'don.

[Yates_]

It's very simple, one thousand years ago, woman channelers calling themselves Aes Sedai traveled across the ocean to Seandar and employed the same tactics in Seandar that Aes Sedai have been employing in Randland since the last Age ended. The only difference is, those woman who traveled across the ocean made a serious mistake and those people of Seandar wouldn't put up with their deceit and manipulation tactics. They got there due in Seandar and the Seanchan, whether rightly or wrongly, are determined to do the same thing in Randland and 'cleanse' them of these power hungry woman.

 

That's actually not how it happened. Aes Sedai had been on the continent of Seanchan since the Breaking & they weren't connected to the White Towere at all.

 

 

If anything, regardless of their culture and practices, like Mat...I admire the Seanchan for standing up to the Third Age's 'Aes Sedai' and saying, "No we will not put up with it and roll over like a docile lamb". This is what all the rulers of Randland, minus Hawkwing, have been doing through all of the Third Age and consequently, they are cowards. The Seanchan are not.

 

Cowardly or not, Randlanders didn't have a'dam to back them up.

 

The Seanchan may have "stood" up to the Aes Sedai, but their actions since then are no better than the Aes Sedai they supplanted. The Aes Sedai plotted and schemed and used their power in battle. Allegiances were constantly shifting.

 

That doesn't sound that different from present day Seanchan. The court politics are brutal and constantly shifting. Tuon trusts almost no one.

 

And they still use the one power as a weapon. The Aes Sedai at least understand their power and its consequences. The Seanchan don't understand the power, but they still employ it, frequently against peasants and soldiers in uprisings.

 

As RJ himself wrote, Seanchan was not conquered by Hawkwing's forces, so much as they absorbed them.

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

It's very simple, one thousand years ago, woman channelers calling themselves Aes Sedai traveled across the ocean to Seandar and employed the same tactics in Seandar that Aes Sedai have been employing in Randland since the last Age ended. The only difference is, those woman who traveled across the ocean made a serious mistake and those people of Seandar wouldn't put up with their deceit and manipulation tactics. They got there due in Seandar and the Seanchan, whether rightly or wrongly, are determined to do the same thing in Randland and 'cleanse' them of these power hungry woman.

 

That's actually not how it happened. Aes Sedai had been on the continent of Seanchan since the Breaking & they weren't connected to the White Towere at all.

 

 

If anything, regardless of their culture and practices, like Mat...I admire the Seanchan for standing up to the Third Age's 'Aes Sedai' and saying, "No we will not put up with it and roll over like a docile lamb". This is what all the rulers of Randland, minus Hawkwing, have been doing through all of the Third Age and consequently, they are cowards. The Seanchan are not.

 

Cowardly or not, Randlanders didn't have a'dam to back them up.

 

The Seanchan may have "stood" up to the Aes Sedai, but their actions since then are no better than the Aes Sedai they supplanted. The Aes Sedai plotted and schemed and used their power in battle. Allegiances were constantly shifting.

 

That doesn't sound that different from present day Seanchan. The court politics are brutal and constantly shifting. Tuon trusts almost no one.

 

And they still use the one power as a weapon. The Aes Sedai at least understand their power and its consequences. The Seanchan don't understand the power, but they still employ it, frequently against peasants and soldiers in uprisings.

 

As RJ himself wrote, Seanchan was not conquered by Hawkwing's forces, so much as they absorbed them.

 

gambril, you seriously FAILED in your explanation about the history of Aes Sedai on the Seanchan continent. The Aes Sedai there had NO connection WHATSOEVER to the Aes Sedai in the mainland - Travelling was LOST, for heaven's sake, so how on earth could mainland Aes Sedai have gotten there? Anyway, the Aes Sedai on the Seanchan were warlike, openly abused their power, and committed henious crimes. Whatever the mainland Aes Sedai have done, they certainly didn't ravage the main continent with war, and drag the normal population into it as well.

 

As for mainlanders being cowards ... well, all I can say is that you seem to lack the knowledge that the a'dam existed ONLY on the Seanchan continent until very recently. If the a'dam hadn't been invented, well ... would Luthair have any more spine?

 

And Hawking didn't stand up to Aes Sedai by himself. He was turned against them by Ishamael. He was originally accepting of them and the White Tower.

[Mr Ares]

amazing how some people are relishing over the prospect of the those slave thugs from seandar attacking the white tower. The same people who keep banging about the need for co=operation amongst all light forces to aid rand al thor in his quest to save the world.

 

Ah well more power to them. Hopefully this time, those slave owners get smashed up for good this time.

 

Ah, another Aes Sedai apologist has climbed aboard. Welcome aboard.

 

I'll never be able to understand how people ignore Aes Sedai's crimes and lay all the blame on the Seanchan. *rolls eyes*

It's not about ignoring the "crimes" of the AS, it's simply that the Seanchan are no solution to the problem.

 

 

aaah yes, PC, the dreaded word. Down with PC!

Burn the filthy, Mac-using heretic!

 

 

It's very simple, one thousand years ago, woman channelers calling themselves Aes Sedai traveled across the ocean to Seandar and employed the same tactics in Seandar that Aes Sedai have been employing in Randland since the last Age ended. The only difference is, those woman who traveled across the ocean made a serious mistake and those people of Seandar wouldn't put up with their deceit and manipulation tactics. They got there due in Seandar and the Seanchan, whether rightly or wrongly, are determined to do the same thing in Randland and 'cleanse' them of these power hungry woman.

That's not at all what happened. The Seanchan AS, the Armies of the Night, were already in Seanchan when Luthair got there 1,000 years ago. After the Breaking, the women on that side of the Aryth called themselves AS, and became direct rulers. They have absolutely nothing to do with the WT AS. They share a name, that's it. They ruled for over 2,000 years, and used the creatures they found in Portal Stone worlds to destroy the Shadowspawn in the Blight. Then, they ran afoul of a bunch of conquerors. The Seanchan have translated their experience of AS to be true of all channelers, despite the WT AS being very different to the AotN.

[wvlr2]

It's very simple, one thousand years ago, woman channelers calling themselves Aes Sedai traveled across the ocean to Seandar and employed the same tactics in Seandar that Aes Sedai have been employing in Randland since the last Age ended. The only difference is, those woman who traveled across the ocean made a serious mistake and those people of Seandar wouldn't put up with their deceit and manipulation tactics. They got there due in Seandar and the Seanchan, whether rightly or wrongly, are determined to do the same thing in Randland and 'cleanse' them of these power hungry woman.

 

That's actually not how it happened. Aes Sedai had been on the continent of Seanchan since the Breaking & they weren't connected to the White Towere at all.

 

 

If anything, regardless of their culture and practices, like Mat...I admire the Seanchan for standing up to the Third Age's 'Aes Sedai' and saying, "No we will not put up with it and roll over like a docile lamb". This is what all the rulers of Randland, minus Hawkwing, have been doing through all of the Third Age and consequently, they are cowards. The Seanchan are not.

 

Cowardly or not, Randlanders didn't have a'dam to back them up.

 

The Seanchan may have "stood" up to the Aes Sedai, but their actions since then are no better than the Aes Sedai they supplanted. The Aes Sedai plotted and schemed and used their power in battle. Allegiances were constantly shifting.

 

That doesn't sound that different from present day Seanchan. The court politics are brutal and constantly shifting. Tuon trusts almost no one.

 

And they still use the one power as a weapon. The Aes Sedai at least understand their power and its consequences. The Seanchan don't understand the power, but they still employ it, frequently against peasants and soldiers in uprisings.

 

As RJ himself wrote, Seanchan was not conquered by Hawkwing's forces, so much as they absorbed them.

 

gambril, you seriously FAILED in your explanation about the history of Aes Sedai on the Seanchan continent. The Aes Sedai there had NO connection WHATSOEVER to the Aes Sedai in the mainland - Travelling was LOST, for heaven's sake, so how on earth could mainland Aes Sedai have gotten there? Anyway, the Aes Sedai on the Seanchan were warlike, openly abused their power, and committed henious crimes. Whatever the mainland Aes Sedai have done, they certainly didn't ravage the main continent with war, and drag the normal population into it as well.

 

As for mainlanders being cowards ... well, all I can say is that you seem to lack the knowledge that the a'dam existed ONLY on the Seanchan continent until very recently. If the a'dam hadn't been invented, well ... would Luthair have any more spine?

 

And Hawking didn't stand up to Aes Sedai by himself. He was turned against them by Ishamael. He was originally accepting of them and the White Tower.

 

I'm not taking a side either way on this element of the thread but:

 

Although Traveling was lost at the time, they surely could have traveled the same way that Luthor did - by ship.

 

On the other side of the Coin - Although the Seanchan histories SAY that "the Aes Sedai on the Seanchan continent were warlike, openly abused their power, and committed henious crimes." It is necessary to actually believe the Seanchan histories and such to take that as true. The trouble is that I am not sure if I trust them to be acurate. Their Phrophacies seem to have been altered by Luthor or his decendents, why not the histories? Even at the best, there is a very true saying "Histories are written by the winners".

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

It's very simple, one thousand years ago, woman channelers calling themselves Aes Sedai traveled across the ocean to Seandar and employed the same tactics in Seandar that Aes Sedai have been employing in Randland since the last Age ended. The only difference is, those woman who traveled across the ocean made a serious mistake and those people of Seandar wouldn't put up with their deceit and manipulation tactics. They got there due in Seandar and the Seanchan, whether rightly or wrongly, are determined to do the same thing in Randland and 'cleanse' them of these power hungry woman.

 

That's actually not how it happened. Aes Sedai had been on the continent of Seanchan since the Breaking & they weren't connected to the White Towere at all.

 

 

If anything, regardless of their culture and practices, like Mat...I admire the Seanchan for standing up to the Third Age's 'Aes Sedai' and saying, "No we will not put up with it and roll over like a docile lamb". This is what all the rulers of Randland, minus Hawkwing, have been doing through all of the Third Age and consequently, they are cowards. The Seanchan are not.

 

Cowardly or not, Randlanders didn't have a'dam to back them up.

 

The Seanchan may have "stood" up to the Aes Sedai, but their actions since then are no better than the Aes Sedai they supplanted. The Aes Sedai plotted and schemed and used their power in battle. Allegiances were constantly shifting.

 

That doesn't sound that different from present day Seanchan. The court politics are brutal and constantly shifting. Tuon trusts almost no one.

 

And they still use the one power as a weapon. The Aes Sedai at least understand their power and its consequences. The Seanchan don't understand the power, but they still employ it, frequently against peasants and soldiers in uprisings.

 

As RJ himself wrote, Seanchan was not conquered by Hawkwing's forces, so much as they absorbed them.

 

gambril, you seriously FAILED in your explanation about the history of Aes Sedai on the Seanchan continent. The Aes Sedai there had NO connection WHATSOEVER to the Aes Sedai in the mainland - Travelling was LOST, for heaven's sake, so how on earth could mainland Aes Sedai have gotten there? Anyway, the Aes Sedai on the Seanchan were warlike, openly abused their power, and committed henious crimes. Whatever the mainland Aes Sedai have done, they certainly didn't ravage the main continent with war, and drag the normal population into it as well.

 

As for mainlanders being cowards ... well, all I can say is that you seem to lack the knowledge that the a'dam existed ONLY on the Seanchan continent until very recently. If the a'dam hadn't been invented, well ... would Luthair have any more spine?

 

And Hawking didn't stand up to Aes Sedai by himself. He was turned against them by Ishamael. He was originally accepting of them and the White Tower.

 

I'm not taking a side either way on this element of the thread but:

 

Although Traveling was lost at the time, they surely could have traveled the same way that Luthor did - by ship.

 

On the other side of the Coin - Although the Seanchan histories SAY that "the Aes Sedai on the Seanchan continent were warlike, openly abused their power, and committed henious crimes." It is necessary to actually believe the Seanchan histories and such to take that as true. The trouble is that I am not sure if I trust them to be acurate. Their Phrophacies seem to have been altered by Luthor or his decendents, why not the histories? Even at the best, there is a very true saying "Histories are written by the winners".

 

No one did, or if they were, they were probably killed. Otherwise I think that SOME mention of the lands would have been documented by someone. But there was none. I mean, when Luthair went over, no one knew what he would find and most thought the entire fleet drowned at sea or something.

[csarmi]

It's inevitable that the Seanchan are going to attack the White Tower in full force. The Aes Sedai have no chance.

 

What do you mean no chance?

 

They can form circles. The Seanchan cannot. That means AS will be able to shield them if need be, but not the other way around.

They have ter'angreal, angreal and sa'angreal. Just look at what Egwene could do with a group of unprepared noviced and one sa'angreal.

They have plans ready for being attacked. Set up originally by the rebels (vs the forsaken), but I'm sure that is extended by now. Yes, the hall is in charge, but they are more effective than people seem to believe. I mean, remember what happened at that Bubble of Evil back in Salidar. Completely taken off guard and everyone was ready in minutes.

 

They will not be surprised, they learnt how to fight and surely everyone in the tower knows how to unlock a'dams by now.

 

It's actually the Seanchan who have absolutely zero chance. They're running into a sound defeat. A devastating one.

 

They are far behind in technology (links, items).

They have a HUGE weakness (a'dam.

They have prepared their enemy for their assault.

They are running into a surprise (the way the last attack went is surely misleading: they were up against 200 unprepared, uncooperated, divided AND surprised AS, now the WT has more than 2k channelers who won't be taken off guard once more).

[wvlr2]

What do you mean no chance?

 

They can form circles. The Seanchan cannot. That means AS will be able to shield them if need be, but not the other way around.

They have ter'angreal, angreal and sa'angreal. Just look at what Egwene could do with a group of unprepared noviced and one sa'angreal.

They have plans ready for being attacked. Set up originally by the rebels (vs the forsaken), but I'm sure that is extended by now. Yes, the hall is in charge, but they are more effective than people seem to believe. I mean, remember what happened at that Bubble of Evil back in Salidar. Completely taken off guard and everyone was ready in minutes.

 

They will not be surprised, they learnt how to fight and surely everyone in the tower knows how to unlock a'dams by now.

 

It's actually the Seanchan who have absolutely zero chance. They're running into a sound defeat. A devastating one.

 

They are far behind in technology (links, items).

They have a HUGE weakness (a'dam.

They have prepared their enemy for their assault.

They are running into a surprise (the way the last attack went is surely misleading: they were up against 200 unprepared, uncooperated, divided AND surprised AS, now the WT has more than 2k channelers who won't be taken off guard once more).

 

I agree. When the Seanchan first attacked the WT, it was split and under Elaida's rule. Now it is once again united.

 

The Rebal AS have been practicing all along for a Forsaken attack and they have had 2 bubbles of Evil. I doubt that the Rebal's would even allow those practice sessions to stop once the WT was reunited. In addition, Elaida's AS were signifficantly chastized by the Seanchan in the first attack. I am sure that even without Egwene they would at least be practicing. On top of that. During the first attack Egwene already showed several Novices AND that AS the A'dam release trick. I am sure it will get around, even if Egwene does not repeat it for everyone.

 

So just AS wise, the WT is now twice as strong as it was before. But now the place has a significant number of (Runaways (Kin)) that are mostly trained & have returned, plus all the new Novices that the Rebals took in. Quite a few were advancing rapidly.

 

I do not see a second attack going well for the Seanchan. If it does, I will be severely disappointed in the book, because it just is not realistic. Even if it occurs while Egwene is a FoM.

[gambril]

It does not matter if the woman channelers in Seanchan were Aes Sedai or not. They called themselves Aes Sedai so are Tuon and the Seanchan, from their POV supposed to believe they aren't Aes Sedai when they specifically called themselves just that?

 

I can admit I'm wrong about things, notably the details of exactly how everything went down when Hawkwings empire fell 1,000 years ago, as others have so kindly pointed out.

 

What I see is a web of destiny that has been woven for both the Seanchan and the Aes Sedai. Neither side is completely right, both sides are wrong. When I see people, naievly mind you, declare the Seanchan have no good qualities and summarily dismisses them/wants them erased from WOT is just silly. If you can look at it objectively, when you wish the absolute destruction of Seanchan people, it's equitable to saying you wish America had been destroyed completely. After all, weren't we similar to Seanchan people 150 years ago? We learned and now look at how vehemently people are opposed to slavery and property (I"m right there with you btw). If we and others can learn these lessons, why can't the Seanchan? Why should they not be given the chance, as we were?

 

From what I understand, Tuon and the Seanchan's beliefs are predicated solely on two things so please correct me if I'm wrong - be warned, I will ignore any and all post that lack proper objectivity.

 

1: Woman that called themselves Aes Sedai tried to conquer Seandar 1k years ago. Any woman today that calls herself Aes Sedai is marath'damane and has to be collared. From their experiences how are they wrong to oppose Aes Sedai? If your arguement is simply the manner in which they oppose Aes Sedai is faulty (which I agree is wrong btw so try again) then you deserve to be ignored.

 

2: With Hawkwing it's a lot more tricky and as others have correctly pointed out, Hawkwing was manipulated by Ishy, but Hawkwing was ta'veren so his story in the Pattern had a purpose. Purpose meaning that the other thing Tuon and Seanchan base all this opposition to Randland off of has been woven by the Pattern through a ta'veren in Hawkwing. Hawkwings puprose as ta'veren could have simply been a means the Pattern needed to bring the Seanchan to Randland because they will be needed for the Last Battle. Beyond that, I just don't know and can't justify any of their positions they take in regards to conquering Randland because it was previously Hawkwings empire. I personally believe most, if not all, of the Seanchan's mostly faulty conclusions were manipulated by Ishy in that Ishy saw a way in a ta'veren named Hawkwing to manipulate the Pattern to his advantage, which he did brilliantly in Seanchan's muddled Karetheon prophecies regarding the Court of the Empress and Crystal Throne most notably. In the end, I imagine the Pattern will have the last laugh in that the Pattern let Ishy do what he thought was manipulating the Pattern, but ultimately the Pattern said ok I'll take your manipulation and raise you one (hello fellow ta'veren Matrim Cauthon)

 

But also think about this, what if the Pattern used Hawkwing as means ultimately to bring Aes Sedai back into line more into returning to their true purpose in the Pattern? Think about it. Throughout the story Robert Jordan has set up Aes Sedai to be woman who are completely set in their ways (same as Seanchan btw) and no matter how many mistakes they make, no matter how much evidence is presented directly in their faces thats contrary, they still haven't taken back their proper place in the Pattern?

 

I believe Robert Jordan setup Aes Sedai and didn't worry about how 'stupid' they remained to be throughout the story because he's had his ace in the hole all along waiting for the final act to play it: Seanchan. He even used a ta'veren in Hawkwing to do this whose actions are inherently "ok'd" by the Pattern (Jordan).

 

Anyways, this might be my last post on Dragonmount until AMOL and things are more clear. It kinda seems pointless to 'debate' things and ideas at this point when people will vehemently ignore even the possibility that yes, Seanchan do have things they are right about. The same as Aes Sedai are right about the things that Seanchan are wrong about. I think as one who could ulimately look at things objectively (Robert Jordan) and whom also saw the bigger picture and the messages/lessons he wanted to convey in opposing these two peoples, yet also give them redeeming qualities to us the reader, was for a reason.

[Kierkegaurdian]

I tend to agree with a lot of what has been said so far. The Aes Sedai find giving up their haughty attitudes difficult. Egwene's placing of her own intelligence and institution over that of the Dragon Reborn and TG ... that will meet its end in the last book, I feel :-) I am very curious to see how everything plays out ... at the moment, there are a number of just-initiated disasters (Trollocs in Caemlyn, impending Seanchan attack on the WT, Lan about to get crushed in the Blight, Egwene and Elayne being brats in regards to Rand) that will need overcoming, and THEN the Last Battle must be won. The good guys have their work cut out from them ... I dunno how neatly it is going to play out.

[Darth Krewl]

@ csarmi and wvlr2:

 

We only got one PoV from the Seanchan in ToM (Tuon's), where she's seen extracting the weave for Traveling from former-Amyrlin-turned-Damane Elaida. Usually, when authors want to describe a certain situation that may be happening in a large scale, they'll rely on just one or two good examples, so as not to be overly descriptive, repetitive and boring to readers. It's up to us, the readers, to understand or at least assume that something similar is going on all over the place.

 

So, in this case, I'd think it's pretty safe to say that the Seanchan have been extracting information out of the Aes Sedai captured during their first attack. It is the right thing to do for any military leader, because you never make your move on enemy territory, until you've made certain that you've exhausted all the options at your disposal to gather as much intel on your enemy and its territory as you can. No military leader likes surprises, unless you happen to be the surprising party.

 

So, even if the White Tower has been preparing (though there's nothing to suggest that in the books and their leader and many of their number are away at this moment in the story) and will be ready, the Seanchan are just as ready (if not more so, because again, they're the ones whom we've seen getting ready and not the Aes Sedai).

[Jak o' the Shadows]

Yeah, kind of hard to pick who to root for here. Its like watching two teams you don't like playing in the Super Bowl - you don't really want either of them to have the glory of winning a championship.

 

I'd like to see the Aes Sedai forced to notice and acknowledge their shortcomings but I feel the same about the Seanchan and I hate that they treat a group of people as sub-human. I guess what I am hoping for is that both sides are forced to admit they have areas that are wrong and that they all work to compromise with Rand and the rest of the world to give the Light the strongest chance to win the Last Battle.

 

You may yet get your wish. I think the way things will go down is like this: Seanchan attack an unprepared White Tower, helping Egwene come back down from her lofty perch and realizing her mistakes. Then, Mat intervenes with Tuon and helps her realize the error of her ways (IMO, this is precisely the reason why Jordan wanted for these 2 to marry. Otherwise, that whole subplot wouldn't make any sense).

 

Tuon and Egwene get one last, little push from Rand to put their differences aside (at least for the time being) and come together to face the Last Battle. The question, IMO, would be if there's still enough time for the forces of the Light to get properly organized, because at this point I'd think it's clear they're far from doing just that and, when one thinks about it, it's the Aes Sedai and the Seanchan who are at the forefront of the main differences in the Randland at this point. So, for better or worse, that conflict needs to happen and be resolved so they can all move on to the really important conflict at hand.

 

There's evidence I believe to support most of what you said.

 

#1 In TOM when Mat's in the Towers of Ghenjei and the Eelfinn that tears his eye out says, "And the gambler becomes the center of all. I can taste fate itself" blah blah blah.

 

#2 This ones a lot more vague and requires putting a bunch of things together but it's based on Min's viewing in some book (?) where she sees Elayne and a severed hand. There's always the possibility that I'm wrong but this severed hand is The Band of the Red Hand I believe. At the end of TOM the band is split in two. One part is with Elayne (ie the severed hand), the others with Talmanes in Caemlyn.

 

This is where it gets flunky. For this viewing of Min's to be true, Talmanes and the Band that's in Caemlyn, kinda has to fall. Cue the one eyed fool walking the Halls of Mourning prophecy we get at the end of TOM.

 

Here's why Talmanes and this part of the Band has to fall: Absent the Band in Caemlyn falling, Mat will reject any offers of being the Light's Supreme General. His response is simply, "I can't do it. My responsibility is to the Band" Well, Jordan will remove this 'problem' for Mat because Mat has to be the Supreme General of the Light, none of the Great Captains will stand a chance against Demandrad and subsequently the Light would lose. The Pattern just simply won't let this happen.

 

The remaining members of the Band will be Mat's presonal bodyguard the same as the Band was at the end of the Trolloc Wars for King Aemon before they fell.

 

Anyways, put those two viewings/prophecies together and you have Mat accepting the role of Supreme General of the Light and this includes the Seanchan's forces as well. Tuon and Rand already know Mat's the man when it comes to generalship so I don't think this is something they will disagree on :). It also gives us insight into why the 'gambler becomes the center of all'. I also think this is the reason Teslyn and Joline particurly were given light into the fact that yeah, if you want someone leading your forces, it's Matrim Cauthon. This will allow the Aes Sedai on their testomony, to wisely accept Mat as their General ;p.

 

Of course, outside #1 and #2 'prophecies/viewings' this is just all speculation. But I have always believed that Mat will be the Supreme General of the Light and the only General for the Light that has a chance against Demandrad on the field. The only other person who would stand a chance that you could argue would be Lews Therin I believe, but he has other things to be about - breaking the seals/facing Moridin/the Dark One. Just imagine how mad Demandrads going to be when it's not Rand that's facing him on the field/in battles like he'll want, but a gambler named Matrim Cauthon lol.

 

 

Pretty good theory.

 

Matt is going to prove important. That line stands out to me too that Mat is 'at the center' and things are revolving around him now... Whether it's before/after/during the conflict at the WT...is the question.

 

We know we need the Seanchan at the last battle...and voila, they're preparing their entire army to go assault the tower. Convenient. Some shape or form, they'll be turned/directed to TG.

 

Hopefully they do enough damage to knock the WT down a peg or two, so the AS realize they need Matt. But not to the point they're crippled.

[csarmi]

So, in this case, I'd think it's pretty safe to say that the Seanchan have been extracting information out of the Aes Sedai captured during their first attack. It is the right thing to do for any military leader, because you never make your move on enemy territory, until you've made certain that you've exhausted all the options at your disposal to gather as much intel on your enemy and its territory as you can. No military leader likes surprises, unless you happen to be the surprising party.

 

Sure, but if they rely on the information given by those Aes Sedai they captured, they're in for a big suprise because things have changed fundamentally since then.

 

Also remember that they don't know any tricks like hiding their weaves, masking their ability and usage of travel'ing is quite new to them so their ability to gather information is limited.

 

As for the Aes Sedai not preparing, that's surely wrong. What else would they be doing?

[gambril]

So, in this case, I'd think it's pretty safe to say that the Seanchan have been extracting information out of the Aes Sedai captured during their first attack. It is the right thing to do for any military leader, because you never make your move on enemy territory, until you've made certain that you've exhausted all the options at your disposal to gather as much intel on your enemy and its territory as you can. No military leader likes surprises, unless you happen to be the surprising party.

 

Sure, but if they rely on the information given by those Aes Sedai they captured, they're in for a big suprise because things have changed fundamentally since then.

 

Also remember that they don't know any tricks like hiding their weaves, masking their ability and usage of travel'ing is quite new to them so their ability to gather information is limited.

 

As for the Aes Sedai not preparing, that's surely wrong. What else would they be doing?

 

Minus a completely unified (keywords here) Randland, all of Randland would fall to the might of the Seanchan military. The Aes Sedai have no chance militarily against the Seanchan. The Aes Sedai's only chance is a diplomatic solution.

[csarmi]

You have to be kidding.

 

Damane are no match to Aes Sedai or Asha'man, not to mention any combined forces.

 

They're too much behind in channeling technology even with traveling learned and their inability to link dooms them.

 

Look what happened to Alivia facing Cyndane.

[Erunion]

Minus a completely unified (keywords here) Randland, all of Randland would fall to the might of the Seanchan military. The Aes Sedai have no chance militarily against the Seanchan. The Aes Sedai's only chance is a diplomatic solution.

 

Or to completely change their tactics. Aes Sedai using inverted weaves and hiding their ability to channel could completely cripple the Seanchan. A brief series of raids, involving stillings, shieldings and capturings would crush the Seanchan's ability to wield Damane, all without breaching the Three Oaths.

Unfortunately, they would need a forward thinking general, and they would need to listen to him/her.

Remember, Damane are useless without their handler Sul'dam, and are kept in their kennels with their collar on a peg. An organized assault using the channeling forces available to the Randlanders could empty every single kennel of Damane before the Seanchan had time to react and adapt to the circumstances.

Keep the Damane collared until they are ready to be safely released, and voila, you have hamstrung your enemies armies, while adding to your own (as I suspect many Damane would have Alivia's reaction in the long run.)