Epiphany - "Demandred allways liked to use proxies"

[Jblaylock]

In Lord of Chaos, when Graendal and Sammael are meeting, they mention Demandred and how he "always liked to use proxies."

 

Well, a proxy is defined as a person authorized to act for another. Directly after recalling this (that D likes to use proxies), Sammael says he won't have Demandred or "his friends" in the south getting in his way. Isn't the Black Tower in the south?

 

This is all just after Rand started the farm and put Taim in charge.

 

Therefore, based on this, it is pretty undeniably clear (at least to me) that Taim is Demandred's servant, acting for him.

 

Now, taking that in mind, it seems that whenever Taim uses the power, he grins (almost in a sort of surprised way, if you ask me) at how much he is able to channel. It seems like maybe he shouldn't even be able to channel, or at least not that much, but is somehow granted the power to do so. So, is it possible for two male chanellers to link? If so, I think Demandred is linked with Taim, giving Taim control over that massive amount of One Power, which is why Taim always seems (at least to me) to have a look on his face, when channelling, that says "wow, this is neat." I know the book doesn't necessarily describe it that way, but they way the desribe him just gives me that imporession somehow.

 

During this meeting between Sammael and Graendel, he asks her to link and thinks to himself that she won't, since the link would remain until he decides to end it. Therefore, I don't think distance between two channellers effects the link. Therefore, I think Taim and Demandred could be linked regardless of location or distance from one another.

 

So, to sum it up, I think Taim is Demandred's servant, or proxy (person authorized to act for another, or in Demandre's stead, so Demandred can stay hidden), and that the two are linked, giving Taim a great deal more power than he should have.

[Jblaylock]

Posted this an hour ago.

Over the hour there have been 7 views, but no replies. To me this must mean one of the following: My theory is plausible and, in fact, so likely that nobody can believe they didn't think of it before; my theory is so stupid and way off for so many reasons that there is no point in repsonding; my theory is possible, but small beans and really a case of "okay, so what?"...; or, possibly my theory is exactly the case, but I didn't know that when I posted it because I haven't read TOM, and others have, and they don't want to post because they don't want to acknowlege it as a spoiler, and thus make it into one.

[Shard]

Posted this an hour ago.

Over the hour there have been 7 views, but no replies. To me this must mean one of the following: My theory is plausible and, in fact, so likely that nobody can believe they didn't think of it before; my theory is so stupid and way off for so many reasons that there is no point in repsonding; my theory is possible, but small beans and really a case of "okay, so what?"...; or, possibly my theory is exactly the case, but I didn't know that when I posted it because I haven't read TOM, and others have, and they don't want to post because they don't want to acknowlege it as a spoiler, and thus make it into one.

 

Or don't have enough time for lengthy post while at work and will post later.

[Darth Krewl]

Posted this an hour ago.

Over the hour there have been 7 views, but no replies. To me this must mean one of the following: My theory is plausible and, in fact, so likely that nobody can believe they didn't think of it before; my theory is so stupid and way off for so many reasons that there is no point in repsonding; my theory is possible, but small beans and really a case of "okay, so what?"...; or, possibly my theory is exactly the case, but I didn't know that when I posted it because I haven't read TOM, and others have, and they don't want to post because they don't want to acknowlege it as a spoiler, and thus make it into one.

 

...or that people are taking their time to think of a good reply, because you do make a good point and it takes a little while to come up with something interesting to say. Nobody likes to make a fool out of oneself, after all heh heh...also, be patient. Things take a while before take off. Every process in the universe takes time ;-)

 

Now, that being said, I've always believed Taim to be a completely independent character. A new Dreadlord and potential first Chosen of the Third Age, you know, as a sort of fail-safe option for the Dark One, given how his Chosen from the previous Age are dropping like flies. An ace up his sleeve or something along those lines.

 

So, that's my take on Taim. But, I do admit that your theory sounds plausible to me. At least the bit about Taim being Demandred's man. 'cause I believe his channeling abilities to be all his own and besides, I don't remember having read anywhere that what you suggest could be possible. Not impossible but highly unlikely, IMO.

 

Saludos, Oscurito!

[OptimusPrime]

Just before Kisman dies, in his PoV, he states that Demandred issued a kill Rand order, as if he didnt know about what Taim and Moridin had also said on the matter. Demandred made it clear to Kisman that it would better if he died than was found out again, especially by the M'Hael. Why would Demandred sound scared of his own proxy finding out about his plans? If Taim was his proxy it seems a logical move for them to gradually plan to take over the Black Tower, so why would Taim finding out about the a major part of the plan coming from his boss... be something the boss wants to hide from the proxy? Surely if Demandred was in charge of Taim, he would likely have told Taim "Okay its time for al'Thor to die, got Kisman and the boys on it." The actual comment Kisman mentions in his thoughts makes it seem much more as if Taim is AT LEAST on the same level as Demandred. Surely, he would be scared of the Nae'blis finding out about it more than his own minion, what with the no-kill order... Does that make sense? I think Demandred is scared of Taim, and rightly so. I think its possible that Taim maybe have been his proxy in the past, but I dont think thats whats going on with the Black Tower.

[David Selig]

Now, taking that in mind, it seems that whenever Taim uses the power, he grins (almost in a sort of surprised way, if you ask me) at how much he is able to channel. It seems like maybe he shouldn't even be able to channel, or at least not that much, but is somehow granted the power to do so. So, is it possible for two male chanellers to link?

No, they need a woman in the circle too.

 

Anyway, remember that Demandred was shocked when he saw Flinn at the Cleansing being able to channel. This is an obvious clue to me that he wasn't closely involved with the Black Tower at the time, since there were quite a few old guys being taught there right from the start. He didn't recognise Flinn either, even though he was the first guy Taim tested.

[OptimusPrime]

Now, taking that in mind, it seems that whenever Taim uses the power, he grins (almost in a sort of surprised way, if you ask me) at how much he is able to channel. It seems like maybe he shouldn't even be able to channel, or at least not that much, but is somehow granted the power to do so. So, is it possible for two male chanellers to link?

No, they need a woman in the circle too.

 

Anyway, remember that Demandred was shocked when he saw Flinn at the Cleansing being able to channel. This is an obvious clue to me that he wasn't closely involved with the Black Tower at the time, since there were quite a few old guys being taught there right from the start. He didn't recognise Flinn either, even though he was the first guy Taim tested.

 

I agree with this. However I do think Demandred has a kind of team leader role with the Darkfriend Ashaman, possibly appearing to them in Taims private classes.

[Jblaylock]

Good points.

 

That's what I love about WOT. RJ wrote the books from points of view, rather than from the outside looking in. He didn't write paragraphs of situational facts, and then seperate paragraphs of charecter viewpoints in those situations, like Tolkien. Rather, Jordan wrote soley from points of view, and the "established facts and knowlege" in any given chapter depends entirely on whos point of view that chapter is being told by. On top of that, he left out enough to keep readers guessing and speculating. It's just brilliant. It's like real life. You can't know everything, and so you have to try and guess, and then find out later whether you were right or wrong.

[Jblaylock]

Also, why do men channelers need a woman in order to link? The women can link without men. Or is "forming a circle" a different thing?

[Zentari]

Also, why do men channelers need a woman in order to link? The women can link without men. Or is "forming a circle" a different thing?

Because that's the way the One Power works.Yes , women can link without men which is balanced by men being individually stronger than women.Even there's a limit though : To get a circle of over 13 you have to get a man in it and he must lead.

[waffle]

Well, a proxy is defined as a person authorized to act for another. Directly after recalling this (that D likes to use proxies), Sammael says he won't have Demandred or "his friends" in the south getting in his way. Isn't the Black Tower in the south?

 

BT is near Caemlyn. That´s about in the center of Randland. Sammaels powerbase was in Illian. And south of Illian there is... the ocean? Land of Madmen? Anyway, i never really gave much thought to Sammaels theories because more often than not, people in wot are wrong about what they think is going on.

 

Not trying to say Demandred is not in cahoots with Taim. Taim is up to something. Probably has Forsaken backing. And everyone other than Demandred is already accounted for. Well, maybe what Ishamael is doing is somewhat unclear. But he seems pretty busy with disciplining Cyndene and Moggy and playing that Fisher game.

[mb]

If Taim & Demandred met during Lord of Chaos, it had to been in Telaranrhiod. And first time maybe being a "chance entering" for Taim.

 

I would guess Taim & Demandred first met after Rand's Ashaman bodyguard was chosen.

[Mr Ares]

Now, taking that in mind, it seems that whenever Taim uses the power, he grins (almost in a sort of surprised way, if you ask me) at how much he is able to channel.

Interesting theory. Because one of Taim's character quirks, one of the main points that led to the Taimandred theory, is that he never smiles. At Dumai's Wells, I believe, Rand describes him as being as close to smiling as Rand had ever seen him. Which leaves me very interested about this grinning you remember.

 

During this meeting between Sammael and Graendel, he asks her to link and thinks to himself that she won't, since the link would remain until he decides to end it. Therefore, I don't think distance between two channellers effects the link. Therefore, I think Taim and Demandred could be linked regardless of location or distance from one another.

As I recall, distance does affect a link - it doesn't break it, but it does limit the amount that can be drawn, so unless Demandred was nearby the link would be practically useless. Of course, I might be getting confused with Warder bonds. Probably not though, because I'm brilliant.

 

Posted this an hour ago.

Over the hour there have been 7 views, but no replies. To me this must mean one of the following: My theory is plausible and, in fact, so likely that nobody can believe they didn't think of it before; my theory is so stupid and way off for so many reasons that there is no point in repsonding; my theory is possible, but small beans and really a case of "okay, so what?"...; or, possibly my theory is exactly the case, but I didn't know that when I posted it because I haven't read TOM, and others have, and they don't want to post because they don't want to acknowlege it as a spoiler, and thus make it into one.

It could be we're just lazy.

 

 

BT is near Caemlyn. That´s about in the center of Randland. Sammaels powerbase was in Illian.

But at the time the comment was made, Sammael was visiting Graendal in Arad Doman.

[dovien]

As I recall, distance does affect a link - it doesn't break it, but it does limit the amount that can be drawn, so unless Demandred was nearby the link would be practically useless. Of course, I might be getting confused with Warder bonds. Probably not though, because I'm brilliant.

You're quite right. A link attenuates with distance but does not break.

[ian8950]

I've agreed with the Taim proxy for a while. But I think he's been given certain Demandred personality quirks via compulsion from Demandred himself, possibly to cause Rand to attack the wrong man and leave himself open to counterattack, or maybe something else.

[SylvanFox]

Also, why do men channelers need a woman in order to link? The women can link without men. Or is "forming a circle" a different thing?

 

Saidin is different from saidar. Just thinking of how saidin is... with the whole raging chaos, fighting for survival thing going on... How would you use that to link?

 

I think Demandred may be using Taim as a proxy, but I seriously doubt that they are permanently linked.

[rsahae]

The two clues, "always liked ot use proxies" and "events to the south had Demandred written all over them" (or whatever the wording is) are so important, but to me they never pointed at Taim. I agree that "the south" probably referred to something farther south than Caemlyn. But directly south of Arad Doman is Tarabon.

 

So I've always thought that the comment either referred to events occurring around Ghealdan and Amadicia and the Whitecloaks (possible proxies - the King of Ghealdan, or one of the Children)

 

OR events in Tarabon, specifically, the Seanchan (as infuenced by Demandred's ally and hence proxy, Semirhage)

[OptimusPrime]

Well we know Sammael was working with Carridin and the Whitecloaks. Its entirely possible that Demandred was behind Masema and the Dragonsworn, and that Sammael knew this, and was referring to that situation. We also have clues I think that hint of the Whitecloaks having people pose as Dragonsworn. If all this were true, Sammaels words could have meant:

 

Im not guna let Demandred and his Dragonsworn in the south get in the way of my plans with the Children. Im guna advance my plans with the Children by having people pose as Dragonsworn, gives us an excuse. I dont care that Im stepping into Demandreds territory with the Dragonsworn, Im not guna let him and his friends get in the way."

[Elan Tedronai]

proxy or not, taim has actually benefited the shadow more than demandred at this point. all demy has done this series is brood like a sullen teenager