Cuendillar Item

[Evoke]

I thought for the longest time that any heartstone items made would react the same way as the chains on Tar Valon's harbor. However Jordan has stated that it's only when it's being converted that it has the fusing property with other unconverted materials. Making chain armor is possible if you make and convert one link at a time.

 

Hmm, since all force directed against cuendillar is absorbed, would that mean a dropped heartstone item wouldn't bounce? Meaning a fall that would otherwise kill you could be made without injury if wearing cuendillar boots?

[dovien]

Hmm, since all force directed against cuendillar is absorbed, would that mean a dropped heartstone item wouldn't bounce? Meaning a fall that would otherwise kill you could be made without injury if wearing cuendillar boots?

I'm resisting the urge to design a number of insane physics experiments...

 

And no, the boots would be fine but you'd hit the boots and die.

[zshadez]

And no, the boots would be fine but you'd hit the boots and die.

 

That would depend, if Cuen can entirely absorb any force directed against it then there would be no force passed through it into your legs and body. The shock would hit the Cuen boots and be absorbed instead of transmitted and your legs would one minute be falling and the next standing with no sensation of impact at all.

 

...interesting. If all force directed against Cuen is truly absorbed then Lan's knife at the end of EotW wouldn't have snapped when he struck it. The impact of the knife would have been absorbed and so there would be no force to rebound back into the knife and break it. That makes it look more like NO force used against it is absorbed, which would still leave the Cuen undamaged.

 

Moiraine said that Cuen absorbs any force directed against it and the force only serves to strengthen the Cuen farther... but from a physics standpoint I don't see how that's possible. If that were the case Lan's knife wouldn't have broken, it would have been thrust with great force at the seal and then stopped with no sensation of impact. The knife breaking would be empirical evidence that the force directed against it was NOT absorbed and count more than her belief of why something that hasn't been made in thousands of years doesn't break... so I'm inclined to go with the thought that it fails to absorb at all rather than that it absorbs completely. Either way your legs would be fine since the cuen would either absorb all the impact force and have none to pass to your legs or absorb none of the force and still have none to pass to your legs.

 

 

The *really* fun physics project would be determining how the force is repelled, especially in the case of weaves. It's not likely to be a straight reflection of force or weaves would all mirror off of it, and it's not likely a complete diffusion or the knife wouldn't have snapped. :)

[dovien]

Well that's the thing, I don't think cuendillar absorbs all force used against it. It seems to me that while it's resistant in the extreme to regular forces, it can absorb any amount of the One Power directed into or against it.

 

As far as the boot example is concerned it appears my explanation was too brief. No matter how tight the boots, they're not a part of your body. The boots hit the ground and stop there. The bottoms of your feet hit the inside surface of the boots a moment later, still travelling at the rate of your fall. At this point the boots are stationary on the ground and you are colliding with them at nearly the rate at which you would have hit the earth anyway.

But then again, at this point your feet would be applying a force to the cuendillar from the other side and this would be absorbed too so I guess you were right in the first place.

 

Luckily I don't think it works like that.

[Evoke]

Come on, that'd be awesome!

 

A squad of to'raken ridden, cuendillar armored troops drop from a few thousand feet and touch down like Iron Man. Right before wading into battle wielding massive swords forged thin enough that they're nearly weightless yet sharp enough to slice through mail like butter.

[dovien]

Come on, that'd be awesome!

A squad of to'raken ridden, cuendillar armored troops drop from a few thousand feet and touch down like Iron Man. Right before wading into battle wielding massive swords forged thin enough that they're nearly weightless yet sharp enough to slice through mail like butter.

Well you actually want a weapon to have some weight or else it can't apply any force.. but that reminds me, a sword of cuendillar would be useless because if you hit someone with it, it would absorb the force of the blow and come to a gentle stop. Providing cuendillar absorbs all forces that is.

[Canis Rufus]

First off I think that the Cuendillar material would be a sort of “Newtonian” element. It is feasible to asses that there is a simple battle of vernacular here. In as much to state that “Absorbs force” is truly the key that needs defining; where in the large context of argument within the Cuendillar text Force would be implying the one power. This would lead to the assumption that similar to Mats medallion; it will absorb all weaves/forces only in a more textual environment. Such as to say, environmental effects would react the same. It would get wet, cold, hot, dry and convert, to the degree of its ability to translate, energy (this would be all forms, impact and the likes). This assumption can be proven in that RJ set up a world with two coexisting Natural Laws The one Power and the Non-one power existing. So yes it would “snap” the dagger as the Natural Non-one Power would translate the transfer on energy back into the knife much the same as if you had slammed the same dagger into to something else of appreciable hardness. However Weaves and the like would be absorbed as the material inherently translate this “one” energy into a form of let’s say stored Kinetic or some sort of reinforcing Kinetic much like the temporary effect Newtonian liquids have to sudden impact.

 

Now the real conundrum with this dichotomy of existence between both the One Power and Non-One power natural laws is that inadvertently we have a natural paradox. Much like a photon is nether light or matter well Cuendillar is neither One or Non-One Power. This case would be most evident in the measured effect of Cuendillar on Cuendillar action. At this point nether laws could prevail as each would be subject to the “strengthening” of its own impact each hit would be creating energy from nothing. Where Natural law we are always converting energy and in One power law we are drawing energy from a source. Cuendillar on Cuendillar would be in effect giving birth to new energy with each impact allowing for each to grow immeasurably stronger to an infinite degree. Or we must assume that the only way to destroy Cuendillar is with Cuendillar. In which much like the aforementioned Newtonian state we would have to assume that the energy would be shared and divided between the two creating a null effect. This would lead us to postulate that repeated impacts would then have a natural Non-One power affect in that the “bigger and heavier” force would eventually break the “weaker and smaller” force.

 

….. (puts away soap box)

 

Thank you.

[Aliriel]

Absorbs the force of an item impacting against it, but not the force used to move the impacting item?

Falling from 4 stories up, landing on your feet you have no ground shock to your ankles/knees/hips, but as all pilots who have walked away from a plane/helicopter/glider crash know... gravity is a heartless bitch, the speed and inersha (i know thats spelt wrong) of your fall would still cause you injury or atleast make you fall flat on your face.

Lan's knife in TEoTW, inpact of point hitting seal, absorbed, pressure Lan is placing on the blade that now how nowhere to go caused the knife to snap.

Just my thoughts anyway.

 

A.

[randsc]

Even when you are writing tens of thousands of pages, you don't have time (or probably, the inclination) to spin out every possibility enabled by the world and magic system you have created.

 

So yeah, I'd say it is entirely possible that Jordan just didn't care to do this. Just as there are many other things that are now possible in tWoT that the books don't explore.

 

For example, there is a huge army of trolloc at the bottom of Tarwin's Gap. A few AshaMan or Aes Sedai could simply have opened a gateway from the TOP of the gap into the middle of the ocean, sending a wall of water crashing down on them.

 

Or Egwene's Talent for delving for minerals, which always seemed to me to be difficult to reconcile with her army's financial problems. I mean, it seems like a solution ought to present itself there, you know?

[AquilaInfernus]

Because if the Black Ajah get their hands on cuendillar armour you can guarantee trollocs will be that much harder to kill. And the main use was to feed the army through selling the stuff, mass produced items just cheapen the price.

[Ozzie_aiel]

Besides, in a world of Fades, Gholam, and other supernaturally agile enemies, do you really want your movement hindered? These guys would just slither around, and shank your more exposed areas. Of course you can make armor that doesn't restrict your movement, but that would have even more exposed areas to play with. Theres also the fact that many armors are specifically tailored to the wearer. After Heartstoning it, no one else would be able to use it to the maximum effect ever again.

[chuckievi]

I think the main reason no one has done it is two fold, Cuendillar isn't indestructible, and it isn't just some simple weave every Aes Sedai can do. It takes a skill for earth weaves and time, very few Aes Sedai can just snap their fingers and make a significant portion. As to it not being indestructible...

 

Question: Do the Seanchan know how to make cuendillar?

Brandon: ... And that he knew of at least two ways to destroy cuendillar-- The True Power and one other way.

 

It is still for sure more durable than steel, so it would be better if it was as simple to make, but we know it isn't, and Aes Sedai don't like spending their time doing mundane tasks like that, which we saw when Elaida had to order people to go help with the harbor deconstruction.

[Evoke]

I think the main reason no one has done it is two fold, Cuendillar isn't indestructible, and it isn't just some simple weave every Aes Sedai can do. It takes a skill for earth weaves and time, very few Aes Sedai can just snap their fingers and make a significant portion. As to it not being indestructible...

 

Question: Do the Seanchan know how to make cuendillar?

Brandon: ... And that he knew of at least two ways to destroy cuendillar-- The True Power and one other way.

 

It is still for sure more durable than steel, so it would be better if it was as simple to make, but we know it isn't, and Aes Sedai don't like spending their time doing mundane tasks like that, which we saw when Elaida had to order people to go help with the harbor deconstruction.

 

The second way to destroy cuendillar is using a weave that reverts the process.

[Tollieman]

All arguments as to why cuendillar wouldn't make 'perfect' armour are illogical.

 

Heavy - What, when you can make it thinner than a hair and it is still impervious to mundane attack? How is that 'heavy'. Your force (I'm assuming forces that ALREADY wear armour) will benefit because they will be lighter, faster, fatigue slower etc.

 

Hinder movement - Again, how is that possible when cuen-armour is lighter and thinner than any other armour you've worn. You'll be way quicker!

 

Useless against channelers - Right, so the fact that you MIGHT be hit with a fire weave means you must forgo better armour? With that reasoning, there'd be NO armour. So use the best you've got for those thousands of trollocs to blunt their weapons on, and hope a dreadlord doesn't look your way.

 

Time - Well, since we don't see everything happnening in the tower, Egwene may have a little squad of AS making some important stuff. If I was Egwene, I'd already have commissioned a set of armour for Rand , Mat and Perrin (and transformed it myself) by now. Why not try protect the only hope for mankind from mundane attack. Maybe she's thought of it, and will offer it to them sometime, but I HIGHLY doubt it.

 

Cost - Time, that's it. People already make armour.

 

The reason it doesn't happen, is because they haven't thought about it, they're just too selfish to do it, or the oath (which is ridiculous, because they're making PROTECTION, not a weapon).

 

NOT because it's unfeasible or ineffective.

 

I'm done

[chuckievi]

If you really wanted to make a smart point, someone would mention that Ashaman are much more proficient/gifted in earth weaves, so it stands to reason they would be better/quicker at making Cuendillar, plus not bound by oaths and are much more militaristic in nature. I still think people underestimate the amount of time it would take to make a significant portion of cuendillar armor.

[mb]

I recall similar discussions.

 

Armor, it needs to be flexible around the joints. Making cuendillar like that would take alot of time.

Also; regardless of how the cuendillar armor is done, it would be difficult to taking off.

 

A cuendillar shield would be more feasible.

[Tollieman]

I still think people underestimate the amount of time it would take to make a significant portion of cuendillar armor.

 

Agreed actually, time (and the number of people who can make it) are both limited. I still think that having one made for the 3 super-important men (and Egwene KNOWS how important they are) would make sense.

Regarding the ashaman, we don't know if they CAN make cuendillar. Women rediscovered the skill, but they cannot teach the men. Have ashaman leant their own way?

 

No expert on armour, but I still don't understand why cuendillar armour would be difficult to take off. I've never seen plate mail bent off? Isn't it all held on by buckles etc?

 

Just make a normal set of armour and convert individual pieces before putting it all back together - As chuck (and many others actually) said, it's probably very labour intensive, but at least make one for the only saviour of humanity?

[randsc]

Cuendillar armor would be no more difficult to don or doff than steel armor. That whole line of discussion really makes no sense. Armor is flexible because it is made up of many pieces which are rivited or tied together. There is no reason that making those individual pieces out of Cuedillar would not be feasible.

 

The limitations are three:

 

1. Time;

2. Production bottlenecks (the very few people who can make it);

3. Inspiration (as far as we know, the idea hasn't occurred to anyone).

[mb]

Cuendillar's inflexibility could be considered a fourth limitation.

 

About the second, that would be the known few.

There may be more than what the books shown so far.

As far as I am aware, White Tower Aes Sedia have not been tested for the talent. Nor have Ashamen.

And I imagine a number of the Forsaken might be able also.

[randsc]

Cuendillar's inflexibility could be considered a fourth limitation.

 

 

Only if you don't know how armor works.

[W_A]

One thing I'm suprised about the second oath that nobody seems to have taken advantage of is the phrase "with which one man may kill another." Now, I'm not sure how the oath operates. If it is how the intention is, they could make the armor, or frankly anything, as long as they intend for it to be used: a) Against Shadowspawn, or even easier, b) for OR against women. If the oath goes according to how it could end up, then I wouldn't be surprised that they couldn't make it. The Aes Sedai all know that the ter'angreal they use probably aren't the original uses. If the oath goes according to how it can eventually be used, with an unbreakable substance it is alsmost inevitable that it will eventually be used as a wepaon, and thus can't be made.

[Tollieman]

I believe the oath applies specifically. It has to be a weapon, or something classified as a weapon for them not to be able to make it. I mean, everywhere we look, they can 'break' the oaths because of interpretation and meaning. I'm sorry, but someone hitting me with a hickory stick of air is using the one power as a weapon, simple as.

 

They also lie. They make extravagant comments that are by definition lies (they are speaking an untruth), but because of the context used (getting their points across, and not actually mean them literally), they can slip the oath.

 

Add that all up, and I think they would have no problem making armour. It's not a weapon.

[Mats Spare Hat]

Think I'd laugh pretty hard to see somebody real proud of their full suit of cuendillar armor, dies when a channeler puts a thread of air, invisible to non-channelers between their eyes.

 

Even if you had a fully enclosed self contained suit of cuendillar, any channeler worth their salt would find an easy way around it - Whether it's exploding the ground beneath, launching you into the air and breaking your bones on impact, flash igniting the oxygen around you so you suffocate, solidifying the air around you...The armor won't break, but the soft warm pink body inside sure can.

[Tollieman]

Of course you are correct - However, considering his massive importance to the survival of the entire human species, you'd like to limit the number of potential threats to his life?

 

I mean, one wouldn't want their DR safe from a stray arrow on a battlefield? Or do you want to rely purely on his skills and ta'veren? The only hope of mankind?

[Mats Spare Hat]

Of course you are correct - However, considering his massive importance to the survival of the entire human species, you'd like to limit the number of potential threats to his life?

 

I mean, one wouldn't want their DR safe from a stray arrow on a battlefield? Or do you want to rely purely on his skills and ta'veren? The only hope of mankind?

 

 

I would, he has, it's fine.