Cuendillar Item

[EvilSocrates]

Why has NOBODY used an indestructible substance that can stop the One Power to make armor or a shield? Perhaps Egwene hasn't had time yet or something (implausible anyhow, she makes it super fast--should at least get the warders geared out), or perhaps armor counts as a weapon as far as the oaths are concerned, but folks in the Age of Legends might have wanted to think about that instead of making goblets of heartstone.

 

Should I just chalk this up to how, generally, nobody in Randland uses magic at all sensibly? Or was this explained away somehow?

[Byzantine279]

It would be completely inflexible, which is one downside. Another is: How would you get it off? Finally: I suspect it would be very, very heavy.

 

And there is the whole 2nd oath to worry about.

[EvilSocrates]

1) Stupid oaths are stupid, but I already mentioned that. Doesn't deal with the Age of Legends (or, in the future, Ashaman). Besides, not clear that a shield or armor is a "weapon for one man to kill another." I guess you could bash someone to death with it, but by that logic they can't make anything that is hard or point, which is implausible. My guess is that their intent when making an iten is what matters. They should be able to make protective items. Even if not, for some reason, they should at least be able to make ones for the war with the shadow.

 

2) Make chain mail if you are worried about flexibility, or overlapping plates, or a shield, where it doesn't matter. You would get it off the same way you get steel armor off (you don't cut a man out of it!). It wouldn't be heavy at all. You could make it almost paper thin, because it is indestructible anyhow. A fine, fine chain of iron turned cuendillar would make you arrow and sword proof still, and really, really thin plate of iron turned cuendillar would be a magic shield of invulnerability. It would only be too heavy if it weighed as much as neutron stars or something, in which case people PROBABLY wouldn't have made cups out of it.

[Neeros]

Mithril!

[dovien]

There are plenty of instances where a weave could be used for something or in a particular way but isn't simply because no one has thought of it yet.

[Evoke]

Using the One Power an ounce of iron could be stretched thin enough to create a suit of full plate. Since there wouldn't be any need for extra armor beneath it, it would be feasible to make it so that extra padding could be fitted underneath to dampen any blows. Shields you may want to have some heaviness to them so that they don't twist and turn in the wielders grip due to blows or simple wind.

 

I'm sure most Wheel of Time fans have had similar thoughts and speculated on how to create nigh indestructible warriors.

[Ozzie_aiel]

A shield is possible, and with the special powers of Cuindillar, you could make it paper thin and it'll never break.

 

Armor on the other hand is overly possible, especially chainmail. Look what happened when Egwene and Lean used the weave on the massive chains both of Tar Valons harbors, it fused the whole thing together! Even if you made the parts seperate, such as plate armor, I doubt, it'd work, you'd never get the movable parts you need (buckles, joints, etc)

 

About the only armor that may work would be something like Studded leather

[zshadez]

Chainmail would likely fuse together like the gates, but...

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plate_armour

 

You could use the power to form the overlapping plates individually with holes for the rivet to attach the pieces together, then cuen it, and finally attach the pieces with iron/steel/cuen rivets. Straps of leather on the inside could keep it in place and on the body. By preforming the pieces and keeping them indicidual before the cuen transformation it wouldn't be a problem at all.

[Nomos]

There really hasn't been much time for it yet. AoL was a peaceful time for the most part, so no real need for armor. After the breaking, not many people knew how to make cuendillar. Egwene rediscovered the Talent for it, and since then has been bitterly embroiled in combining the split tower, dealing with the Seanchan, rooting out the Black Ajah, and figuring out how to work with Rand. She MIGHT get to it in the next book, but the battle has already started.

[dwn]

What would be the point? High quality steel (or possibly kevlar or ceramic in the AoL) is a perfectly effective armour and doesn't need a channeller to be involved with the construction. Unlike weapons where dulling and breakage are common, extraordinary material for armour isn't nearly so cost-effective. Even among exotic materials, cuendillar only offers the added benefit of invulnerability... of the armour itself. It wouldn't offer the wearer any special protection against concussion, fire, balefire, etc.

 

-- dwn

[zshadez]

What would be the point? High quality steel (or possibly kevlar or ceramic in the AoL) is a perfectly effective armour and doesn't need a channeller to be involved with the construction. Unlike weapons where dulling and breakage are common, extraordinary material for armour isn't nearly so cost-effective. Even among exotic materials, cuendillar only offers the added benefit of invulnerability... of the armour itself. It wouldn't offer the wearer any special protection against concussion, fire, balefire, etc.

 

-- dwn

 

Cuen isn't a cost prohibitive material, as the only cost over base metals is a few seconds of an AS time/ High quality steel, kevlar, or ceramic would take more effort to create and cost more. And... the 'only' benefit is invulnerability? It wouldn't offer protection against concussion, fire, balefire, etc? Have you actually read the series? Cuen's main property is absorption. It absorbs any force directed against it and uses the force to strengthen itself. This includes physical force, heat, and the OP including balefire. Being entirely encased in Cuen, the only real reason to need padding is so you don't chafe.

[EvilSocrates]

What would be the point? High quality steel (or possibly kevlar or ceramic in the AoL) is a perfectly effective armour and doesn't need a channeller to be involved with the construction. Unlike weapons where dulling and breakage are common, extraordinary material for armour isn't nearly so cost-effective. Even among exotic materials, cuendillar only offers the added benefit of invulnerability... of the armour itself. It wouldn't offer the wearer any special protection against concussion, fire, balefire, etc.

 

-- dwn

 

Cuen isn't a cost prohibitive material, as the only cost over base metals is a few seconds of an AS time/ High quality steel, kevlar, or ceramic would take more effort to create and cost more. And... the 'only' benefit is invulnerability? It wouldn't offer protection against concussion, fire, balefire, etc? Have you actually read the series? Cuen's main property is absorption. It absorbs any force directed against it and uses the force to strengthen itself. This includes physical force, heat, and the OP including balefire. Being entirely encased in Cuen, the only real reason to need padding is so you don't chafe.

 

Agreed. However, even if it didn't protect you from heat, it would still be super handy. It should definitely stop balefire though, so the Forsaken should have commissioned themselves some for sure. Arrows and bolts go through steel armor all the time. Also, the main thing that kills you when you are wearing a suit of plate and you get hit with a hammer isn't the concussion, it is the deformed metal sticking into your body. Also, also, if something even if cuen didn't directly just absorb the energy from a blow, it would spread the energy of impact out over your whole body, because it does not flex.

 

I'd say invulnerability is way more important in armor than in weapons, so it is really strange we see power wrought weapons instead. Then again, the pinnacle of fighting In Robert Jordan's view, for some reason, is skill with a weapon and no armor, for reasons that are never clear to me. Rand makes a little sense, because he is crazy and uses the Power, but warders and Perrin and Mat should at least wear breastplates and helmets in battle. Don't know why they don't.

[Demiandre]

Just a quick question : Cuendillar absorbs Balefire. But what if you balefire a cuendillar item minutes after it is made? will it be balefired because it won't be cuendillar because of the balefire thread burning? Or will the cuendillar property have the upper hand on the OP?

[buckeyebull64]

I'd say we can't accept the premise that Cuendillar is indestructable. The only information we get about it's properties come from people in the current age, who until recently, knew nothing of it's making. Travelling was impossible too, before Avi and Rand did it. Cuendillar is only indestructable because nobody has been seen to break it yet. And the only group in this age that could do it is lead by a Egwene, who to my knowledge, has not seen any Cuendillar that was not in fact broken (the seals) before she learned to make it.

 

And for the current war and the war of Power, armor of Cuendillar would be just as effective as any other armor, not more so. Balefire is still going to hit you in the exposed areas or through the links of your chain mail, pillars of fire will still roast you in the armor, tornados will still fling you 500 yards, your blood will still boil or your muscules still explode, etc.

[dovien]

Just a quick question : Cuendillar absorbs Balefire. But what if you balefire a cuendillar item minutes after it is made? will it be balefired because it won't be cuendillar because of the balefire thread burning? Or will the cuendillar property have the upper hand on the OP?

The Balefire doesn't strike back in time, it strikes when it is cast and has an effect which reaches back. Thus, balefiring newly-made cuendillar will have no effect that it wouldn't have on older cuendillar.

[EvilSocrates]

I'd say we can't accept the premise that Cuendillar is indestructable. The only information we get about it's properties come from people in the current age, who until recently, knew nothing of it's making. Travelling was impossible too, before Avi and Rand did it. Cuendillar is only indestructable because nobody has been seen to break it yet. And the only group in this age that could do it is lead by a Egwene, who to my knowledge, has not seen any Cuendillar that was not in fact broken (the seals) before she learned to make it.

 

And for the current war and the war of Power, armor of Cuendillar would be just as effective as any other armor, not more so. Balefire is still going to hit you in the exposed areas or through the links of your chain mail, pillars of fire will still roast you in the armor, tornados will still fling you 500 yards, your blood will still boil or your muscules still explode, etc.

 

False. Most of the people dying will not be getting balefired. They will be getting arrowed or Trolloced or Faded. Also, it would still provide some protection against Power explosions and other weaves. Not every channeler is a Forsaken.

 

Saying regular armor and cuendillar armor are equal is like saying paper armor and steel armor are equal, because there exist situations in which neither would save you.

[Silver]

Making plate armor is entirely possible. It's just nobody thought of it. It may have a high up front cost (like getting a Sedai to make it) but afterwards you'd never have to repair the armor since it'll never get damaged.

[buckeyebull64]

Also false. We have no idea how people will be dying, how do you predict a supernatural battle before it happens.

 

the making of cuendillar is still relativly new, and known by only by those people who are above swords and battles (c'mon, you know the Aes Sedai don't care about thier men). So they just haven't thought of it yet. But I can assure you that in the AoL, LTT or Sammy thought of it, and the other one found out how to counter it with more ease than the making and distributing it. Like I said, cuendillar isn't indestructable, the third age just thinks it is. If they face a Dreadlord who uses a weave that makes all cuendillar like your paper armor, you just wasted a lot of time for nothing.

 

Is that the exact reason? not sure, but do you really think RJ would miss a detail as big as this for no reason?

[Silver]

That reasoning doesn't fly. Just because you believe it isn't indestructible doesn't mean i's true. We have no evidence at all that cuen can break (exexpt with TP).

[EvilSocrates]

Also false. We have no idea how people will be dying, how do you predict a supernatural battle before it happens.

 

the making of cuendillar is still relativly new, and known by only by those people who are above swords and battles (c'mon, you know the Aes Sedai don't care about thier men). So they just haven't thought of it yet. But I can assure you that in the AoL, LTT or Sammy thought of it, and the other one found out how to counter it with more ease than the making and distributing it. Like I said, cuendillar isn't indestructable, the third age just thinks it is. If they face a Dreadlord who uses a weave that makes all cuendillar like your paper armor, you just wasted a lot of time for nothing.

 

Is that the exact reason? not sure, but do you really think RJ would miss a detail as big as this for no reason?

 

1- We have a pretty good idea, as we have already seen a bunch of the fighting in Maradon and in the other borderlands. Also, common sense. There are way more vanilla mortals and Trollocs than channelers, and everyone is going around gathering mundane armies, so they apparently matter.

 

2-Aes Sedai at least care about their Warders. They feel uber-magic-grief at their deaths.

 

3- You are just making that cuendillar stuff up. I doubt that they would have sealed the DO's prison with something that is susceptible to simple counter measures.

 

4- Yes I do think he could have missed it, or saw it and didn't much care, because he didn't much care about a plausible and organic world in a ton of other contexts. But sometimes he does, and I was wondering if I had missed some explanation in world. For example, I used to be confused about why the Forsaken used Ways and Portal Stones and stuff for getting their armies around, but then someone pointed out to me that shadowspawn can't travel, and it made a bunch of sense.

[zshadez]

There's nothing in the books that says it was tried and failed or that Cuen is anything but indestructible. I'd say the main reason it didn't exist in AoL was because the AoL was mostly entirely peaceful and when the bore was opened war was a "new invention". Things were frantic and they just didn't come up with it or get it done before the sealing and the breaking. After that Cuen was lost until just recently and Eg&co haven't thought of it yet.

[Zentari]

Well , TP can be used to destroy Cue.There are no known conventional means of destroying it SO FAR yet saying the possibility doesn't exist is at least shortsighted if not outright idiotic.Just take a look at all the things that were thought impossible during the AoL.

[zshadez]

So you're saying that making armor from a material that's invulnerable to almost all if not all attacks isn't worth it because a handfull of people who can channel TP may in theory find a way to break it? Do you realize we currently spend a massive amount on armor for soldiers that we KNOW things can get through/around? Cuen is something many orders of magnitude greater, and your argument is that since the DO could weaken/break 7 pieces of Cuen over 3,000 years the average soldier with the average lifespan shouldn't bother protecting himself from the trollocs and fades and the million other ways to die besides being set on by one of the forsaken or the DO?

[RyanDuranGeiger]

So, just wondering..

But, what would happen if a gateway were to happen over/next to a Cuendillar piece? would it not be able to open, or would there be a random non-gateway part in the gateway, causing anyone entering from the other side to have a piece of themselves missing when they enter?

[zshadez]

My guess is that since the weave for a gateway parts anything it contacts (plants, people, ropes, etc) to open and it would be unable to part the Cuen the gateway simply wouldn't form in the same space. We've seen gateways fail for several reasons, being physically unable to open in a spot seems like another good reason.