Discuss Lan/Defense of the Blight Border

[AutomatedTeller]

I hope, for Lan's sake, that his charge is around the Field of Merrilor... cause if it's not, he's probably dead.

 

While I agree that the charge is what they have, they still aren't going to last all that long against 100K trollocs without backup.

 

But I'm absolutely sure that Nynaeve will show up and I'm pretty sure it will be at the head of an Aes Sedai group with a bunch of greens in it, along with 30K or so Shienarans.

[Viperswhip]

The timeline is so screwy at this point that we just won't know until AMoL. Likely Lan's charge will take place from other characters perspectives 1/3 of the way through AMoL. Heck, Perrin sees Rand on Dragonmount almost halfway through ToM, while other characters have noted it at different times yet somehow Perrin catches up to Egwene in time for her battle with Mesaana. I guess all those training sessions with Hopper took a while.

 

RJ hasn't killed off any major character, or even strong secondary characters yet besides a few Forsaken and he even brings a lot of them back. We all knew Moiraine wasn't dead. We had a very strong hint from Min and verification from Thom's letter.

 

Now, Brandon is not RJ but he's obviously following a guide of some sort. I read some of his books as soon as I found out he was going to finish the WoT but I didn't pay close attention and read them over a couple of hectic days a few years ago. I can't remember if he has a penchant for killing characters but I don't think so because Martin is the only decent author I am familiar with that does kill people off.

 

So, I am inclined to believe that Rand will set the Borderlanders off to the Gap. It's quite obvious that the group from Kandor can't go home as their entire country has been sacked last we heard. There you go, fifty thousand more troops willing to sacrifice themselves in rage against the trollocs.

 

Lan will survive and Nynaeve will become Queen of Malkier, a country reconstituted after TG.

[Duskfire]

Now, Brandon is not RJ but he's obviously following a guide of some sort. I read some of his books as soon as I found out he was going to finish the WoT but I didn't pay close attention and read them over a couple of hectic days a few years ago. I can't remember if he has a penchant for killing characters but I don't think so because Martin is the only decent author I am familiar with that does kill people off.

 

Obviously I cant be too spoilerish but alot more main characters die in Mistborn then in ASoIaF. Sanderson is not afraid of killing off people. However since he is finishing WoT with how RJ wanted it, it doesnt matter what happened in Mistborn or elsewhere. We do have a few images/dreams and whatnot of people dying though, so I expect people to die. Maybe not main main, but for one Bashere is basically destined to die, and I would be quite sad about that.

[rambling]

I hope, for Lan's sake, that his charge is around the Field of Merrilor... cause if it's not, he's probably dead.

 

While I agree that the charge is what they have, they still aren't going to last all that long against 100K trollocs without backup.

 

But I'm absolutely sure that Nynaeve will show up and I'm pretty sure it will be at the head of an Aes Sedai group with a bunch of greens in it, along with 30K or so Shienarans.

 

I can't find the quotes at the moment, but I blieve that BS has said that all the timelines line up to FoM, except for the Black Tower, which is less than a week behind and the Seanchan, who are a few days behind. Mat's timeline is completely messed up, but I believe he is supposed to line up to FoM too)

[Sharaman]

I hope, for Lan's sake, that his charge is around the Field of Merrilor... cause if it's not, he's probably dead.

 

While I agree that the charge is what they have, they still aren't going to last all that long against 100K trollocs without backup.

 

But I'm absolutely sure that Nynaeve will show up and I'm pretty sure it will be at the head of an Aes Sedai group with a bunch of greens in it, along with 30K or so Shienarans.

 

I can't find the quotes at the moment, but I blieve that BS has said that all the timelines line up to FoM, except for the Black Tower, which is less than a week behind and the Seanchan, who are a few days behind. Mat's timeline is completely messed up, but I believe he is supposed to line up to FoM too)

Mat went into ToG the day before FoM. We know that because Perrin saw a vision of Rand chatting with the Borderlanders as Mat trotted off.

We don't know for sure when Mat comes out - the only vision he sees is Rand and Min eating a meal, which could be anywhere.

[gary0044187]

Just thinking about this, what were the numbers involved again. If the difference is close, like 3-1, it would be very likely for Lan's charge to work. So long as they do not lose momentum they could obliterate a large portion of the enemy with every assault (the earliest example in literature that I know of is the Nibelungenlied, where Siegfried led his knights on multiple passes through the enemy army, obliterating that larger force). Also, no one said he was going to just stick around and slug it out. If he can punch through the enemy lines, he could basically push on into the blight and force that army to chase him or whatever. I will reread this chapter later today.

[Erunion]

He's outnumbered roughly 12-1.

There is a very small chance of him winning that battle. If he was facing an army of light infantry, then maybe, but he's not. Trollocs are practically light cavalry, so his force will get bogged up if he tries to push through.

He might manage to do a good chunk of damage, but Lan will die unless he gets backup asap.

[Pinzarn]

I am expecting an Aes Sedai/White Tower redemption. Last time that the Malkier were being over run, a call was put out but the Aes Sedai/White Tower arrived too late. I expect this story line to come full circle and the AS/WT will show up in time, probably led by Nynaeve.

[Darth Krewl]

This was the one single part in ToM that really, really bothered me. Total rip-off of Aragorn leading and rallying his troops on a seemingly lost cause to the Black Gate of Mordor. Even down to the "I may rule no land - or be crownless - but I'm still a king!" Lan pep talk to his troops.

 

MAJOR LotR rip-off. So, I just hope this isn't only used as a distraction to draw all of the Shadow's forces to Tarwin Gap, while Rand and co. sneak into the Pit of Doom to reseal the Bore. I expect something more original from Lan and co. in the next book. That's all I've got to say on this.

[Mulk]

suppose, if the Borderlanders take up Rand on his offer, that he sets them down on the flanks of the Dark One's army or behind it? Either are possible, and with the amount of control Rand is showing in his weaves now it wouldn't surprise me if he could make multiple large scale gateways to get a sizable force through in a short time.

 

Or as others put, the White Tower could ride to the rescue just in time.

 

It looks grim, but knowing what we know and that Rand intends to get him aid somehow, not as grim as it looks to Lan and those with him. I'm looking forward to it. :)

[dokfeelg00d]

I think that Lan really knows that he will survive and is just trying to draw the allies into a battle that would help reclaim Malkier. He knows damn well that Nynaeve will not let him die - there is going to be a massive Aragorn/Legolas/Gimli and the ghost pirates moment here... His little "last surge of love" through the bond was what she was waiting for. We are about to see trolloc bits all over the place.

 

That being said, even if noone comes to help 12,000 veteran troops is way more than King Leonidas had at Thermopylae defending that gap (which granted is probably smaller than Tarwin's but the same concept applies... just without the slow motion). It is possible that they could hold a couple of days if they are disciplined and in good shape. I don't think that this is as much of a suicide mission as his men think.

[Viperswhip]

This was the one single part in ToM that really, really bothered me. Total rip-off of Aragorn leading and rallying his troops on a seemingly lost cause to the Black Gate of Mordor. Even down to the "I may rule no land - or be crownless - but I'm still a king!" Lan pep talk to his troops.

 

MAJOR LotR rip-off. So, I just hope this isn't only used as a distraction to draw all of the Shadow's forces to Tarwin Gap, while Rand and co. sneak into the Pit of Doom to reseal the Bore. I expect something more original from Lan and co. in the next book. That's all I've got to say on this.

 

You do know that LorR ripped off countless other stories right? There are few original ideas these days, its all in the execution. I care about Lan more than I cared about Aragorn.

[Darth Krewl]

This was the one single part in ToM that really, really bothered me. Total rip-off of Aragorn leading and rallying his troops on a seemingly lost cause to the Black Gate of Mordor. Even down to the "I may rule no land - or be crownless - but I'm still a king!" Lan pep talk to his troops.

 

MAJOR LotR rip-off. So, I just hope this isn't only used as a distraction to draw all of the Shadow's forces to Tarwin Gap, while Rand and co. sneak into the Pit of Doom to reseal the Bore. I expect something more original from Lan and co. in the next book. That's all I've got to say on this.

 

You do know that LorR ripped off countless other stories right? There are few original ideas these days, its all in the execution. I care about Lan more than I cared about Aragorn.

 

Yes, I do know that about The Lord of the Rings. Doesn't change the way I feel about it or how well I believe Tolkien pulled it off, though. Doesn't change the fact that Lan's last stand at Tarwin's Gap sounds - so far - exactly like Aragorn's last stand at the Black Gate, either. And finally, it doesn't change the fact that Jordan himself admitted to having "borrowed" from The Fellowship of the Ring when writing the Eye of the World, to attract more fantasy readers to his series. Matter of fact, I happen to be one of said readers myself. Because to me, LotR is and always will be, second to none.

 

As for you prefering Mandragoran over the incomparable Aragorn/Strider/King Elessar...good for you. Needless to say, I feel the exact opposite, myself.

[sleepinghour]

My crack theory is that Slayer is with the Trollocs at the Gap and will seek Lan out for a duel. Slayer's commanded Trollocs before (the ones that attacked Two Rivers used Isam's name as a battle cry), and he is Lan's cousin. A fight between them, surrounded by the ruins of Malkier, would be epic.

[anotherfingolfin]

This was the one single part in ToM that really, really bothered me. Total rip-off of Aragorn leading and rallying his troops on a seemingly lost cause to the Black Gate of Mordor. Even down to the "I may rule no land - or be crownless - but I'm still a king!" Lan pep talk to his troops.

 

MAJOR LotR rip-off. So, I just hope this isn't only used as a distraction to draw all of the Shadow's forces to Tarwin Gap, while Rand and co. sneak into the Pit of Doom to reseal the Bore. I expect something more original from Lan and co. in the next book. That's all I've got to say on this.

 

You do know that LorR ripped off countless other stories right? There are few original ideas these days, its all in the execution. I care about Lan more than I cared about Aragorn.

 

Yes, I do know that about The Lord of the Rings. Doesn't change the way I feel about it or how well I believe Tolkien pulled it off, though. Doesn't change the fact that Lan's last stand at Tarwin's Gap sounds - so far - exactly like Aragorn's last stand at the Black Gate, either. And finally, it doesn't change the fact that Jordan himself admitted to having "borrowed" from The Fellowship of the Ring when writing the Eye of the World, to attract more fantasy readers to his series. Matter of fact, I happen to be one of said readers myself. Because to me, LotR is and always will be, second to none.

 

As for you prefering Mandragoran over the incomparable Aragorn/Strider/King Elessar...good for you. Needless to say, I feel the exact opposite, myself.

 

and that will always be personal preference. sorry to butt in, but i just feel a major thread derailment coming on, if we re-open THAT particular can of worms. sorry.

 

i like to pretend that the overall weakness i percieve in this Lan scene is because maybe BS wrote it, and had RJ written it, he would have been better at making the tactical value more apparent/sensible.

[Darth Krewl]

You do know that LorR ripped off countless other stories right? There are few original ideas these days, its all in the execution. I care about Lan more than I cared about Aragorn.

 

Yes, I do know that about The Lord of the Rings. Doesn't change the way I feel about it or how well I believe Tolkien pulled it off, though. Doesn't change the fact that Lan's last stand at Tarwin's Gap sounds - so far - exactly like Aragorn's last stand at the Black Gate, either. And finally, it doesn't change the fact that Jordan himself admitted to having "borrowed" from The Fellowship of the Ring when writing the Eye of the World, to attract more fantasy readers to his series. Matter of fact, I happen to be one of said readers myself. Because to me, LotR is and always will be, second to none.

 

As for you prefering Mandragoran over the incomparable Aragorn/Strider/King Elessar...good for you. Needless to say, I feel the exact opposite, myself.

 

and that will always be personal preference. sorry to butt in, but i just feel a major thread derailment coming on, if we re-open THAT particular can of worms. sorry.

 

i like to pretend that the overall weakness i percieve in this Lan scene is because maybe BS wrote it, and had RJ written it, he would have been better at making the tactical value more apparent/sensible.

 

I couldn't agree more. All I was saying is that I found Lan's thread very disappointing because of the reasons I stated above. Not here to speak of personal preferences or to stir any controversy between books, authors, characters, etc. I certainly enjoy reading the WoT, but I'm certainly not blind to the shortcomings I may find in it. I was just expressing my opinion on the topic of this thread in dispassionate, objective manner.

[randsc]

The entire Lan arc in this book was irritating. Not because it was bad, but because it could have been so much better. The Ride of the Rho-- I mean, the Ride of the Malkieri could have been a great device, interspersed with the slower portions of the book. Instead, it just felt rushed. Didn't live up to its' setup be Nynaeve.

 

More pages could have been given to it if there was a little less in the way of WT and Andor politics.

[anotherfingolfin]

The entire Lan arc in this book was irritating. Not because it was bad, but because it could have been so much better. The Ride of the Rho-- I mean, the Ride of the Malkieri could have been a great device, interspersed with the slower portions of the book. Instead, it just felt rushed. Didn't live up to its' setup be Nynaeve.

 

More pages could have been given to it if there was a little less in the way of WT and Andor politics.

 

yes, it really had potential to be so much greater. i really thought we were finally done with the Andor arc, after just too much of it in the last two books, but we had EVEN more of Elayne politicking. real waste of space, imho.

[smileyman]

The timeline is so screwy at this point that we just won't know until AMoL. Likely Lan's charge will take place from other characters perspectives 1/3 of the way through AMoL. Heck, Perrin sees Rand on Dragonmount almost halfway through ToM, while other characters have noted it at different times yet somehow Perrin catches up to Egwene in time for her battle with Mesaana. I guess all those training sessions with Hopper took a while.

 

RJ hasn't killed off any major character, or even strong secondary characters yet besides a few Forsaken and he even brings a lot of them back. We all knew Moiraine wasn't dead. We had a very strong hint from Min and verification from Thom's letter.

 

Now, Brandon is not RJ but he's obviously following a guide of some sort. I read some of his books as soon as I found out he was going to finish the WoT but I didn't pay close attention and read them over a couple of hectic days a few years ago. I can't remember if he has a penchant for killing characters but I don't think so because Martin is the only decent author I am familiar with that does kill people off.

 

So, I am inclined to believe that Rand will set the Borderlanders off to the Gap. It's quite obvious that the group from Kandor can't go home as their entire country has been sacked last we heard. There you go, fifty thousand more troops willing to sacrifice themselves in rage against the trollocs.

 

Lan will survive and Nynaeve will become Queen of Malkier, a country reconstituted after TG.

 

Guy Gavriel Kay kills characters off and does it in heart-wrenching fashion. With Martin I never got that wrenching sense of loss (though I admit to having only managed to make it through the first two books). Guy Gavriel Kay has main characters die all the time and every time he writes a scene I tear up. He's one of the few authors on my "buy instantly" list.

[smileyman]

He's outnumbered roughly 12-1.

There is a very small chance of him winning that battle. If he was facing an army of light infantry, then maybe, but he's not. Trollocs are practically light cavalry, so his force will get bogged up if he tries to push through.

He might manage to do a good chunk of damage, but Lan will die unless he gets backup asap.

 

The biggest benefit for the Borderlanders is the undisciplined nature of the Trollocs and the fact that they don't use pikes or spears. They also seem to have one tactic only and that's charging en masse with the idea of overwhelming the opposition. I still think the Borderlanders will be toast, unless they get rescued by whomever Rand sends along.

[Corvinus]

IMO, Lan was written very well. The only time we've seen his POV was in New Spring, so I was excited that Lan is still the same. So assuming that Sanderson wrote all these scenes, I say good job.

Now his story arc is bland and straightforward. I see people think it could have been better. If you wanted Lan to reach Tarwin's Gap in time for the Last Battle, then I don't see how his story could have been made better. I mean, he had to go from World's End to Tarwin's Gap. Not much to do but ride, and try to avoid recruiting people, and then eventually gathering an army.

There are only two ways in which I see Lan's story being more interesting in this book:

1) have Lan's battle in the book; that would have been cool to see, though the book was already huge

2) have Lan get sidetracked and never actually reach Tarwin's Gap. By sidetracked I mean if his timeline coincided at all with the all out invasion of the Borderlands, he could have stopped in different places to help. Or he could have been attacked by Darkfriends who didn't want Lan to reach the Gap.

[Two_Rivers_Tabac]

I felt that Lan's initial impetus towards jumping to a lone last stand at Tarwin's Gap was partially the residue of his severed bond with Moiraine, which, despite his love for Nynaeve, I did not feel he had fully recovered from, and partially the resumed vendetta from before she bonded him in aNS. He was certainly resenting the fact that Nynaeve was sending him help in the beginning, but I had hoped for more of a change of heart than we saw once she took over the bond.

 

I really do hope that he will get a bail-out in aMoL. It worries me that Rand was so ready to give him as a pawn in tGS, but of course that was dark Rand. I find it hard to imagine that Nynaeve won't have something up her sleeve for him, but then she is the one main Light character other than Rand and now Mat who I would credit with abandoning her own interests if that is the only way for the Light to triumph.

[GB]

so i was reading the epilogue again

 

and i wasnt sure about this whole part from Lan's PoV:

 

"he could feel something, distant, that had given him strength recently. The bond had changed. The emotions had changed. He could still feel Nynaeve, so wonderful, caring and passionate in the back of his mind."

 

any idea what that change was?

 

i was thinking that maybe that could have been when Moiraine got out of ToG, what if some residue of the bond was there and her return from ToG, had some effect even though Nyn has the bond. but thats not very likely

 

or maybe it was just Nyn whose emotions have changed, maybe she is getting ready to come to his rescue with help Rand sent? or White Tower sent?

[lhsmommy]

so i was reading the epilogue again

 

and i wasnt sure about this whole part from Lan's PoV:

 

"he could feel something, distant, that had given him strength recently. The bond had changed. The emotions had changed. He could still feel Nynaeve, so wonderful, caring and passionate in the back of his mind."

 

any idea what that change was?

 

i was thinking that maybe that could have been when Moiraine got out of ToG, what if some residue of the bond was there and her return from ToG, had some effect even though Nyn has the bond. but thats not very likely

 

or maybe it was just Nyn whose emotions have changed, maybe she is getting ready to come to his rescue with help Rand sent? or White Tower sent?

 

I never considered that. Very interesting. I was assuming that it was when Nyn took the three oaths. But, now you have me thinking. Guess it all depends on where Lan's timeline falls.

 

Jen-

[gary0044187]

"he could feel something, distant, that had given him strength recently. The bond had changed. The emotions had changed. He could still feel Nynaeve, so wonderful, caring and passionate in the back of his mind."

 

see I read that as- "He could feel Nynaeve" I did not read the "still" part, I will have to check my book some time tomorrow. It will be a shame if we start seeing soldiers of the light thrown away like trollocs to make the main characters seem cooler though. That is what I got out of the whole defense of Maradon, the Domani and Saldaeans whiped almost to a man before Rand shows up to save the day. I am half expecting 99% of the Malkeiri dead before some relief force shows up in the nick of time to save Lan and a few handfuls of soldiers. It is so cliche to see ridiculous casualties to nonessential characters like this, that I would be really annoyed if it happened. Hell, did anyone see if they were wearing red?