Discuss Egwene

[Elan Tedronai]

For those who don't understand why many feel Egwene is so awful, I'll offer this little primer.

 

First, let me start by saying that I believe that Egwene is being written this way very intentionally. I am aware of the fact that RJ was frequently criticized for being unable to write strong female characters that didn't come across as bitches. But I think the growth we have seen in some of the female characters (notably Nynaeve, Cadsuane and Min) is proof that he could write strong female characters that aren't bitches. Or at least, proof that Sanderson can.

 

So if Egwene is being written as a cluesless, arrogant witch (and she is) it is intentional. There will be a plot justification for it. I favor the Halima compulsion explanation myself, but it may turn out to be something else.

 

Now, as to the ways in which Egwene is awful.

 

1. She opposes Rand instinctively, with no plan of her own. It's fine to be freaked by the idea of breaking the seals. It is not fine to simply attempt to stonewall while making no attempt to come up with a better plan, and devoting the resources (e.g., the Browns) who could have helped come up with a better plan to White Tower politics instead.

 

2. She spends time and effort trying to ensure that the White Tower will control all of the female channelers, post-Last Battle. Her little scheme with the Wise Ones and Windfinders might not be a bad idea. But if the breaking the seals is the WOT equivilent of nuclear war, as some claim, than what Egwene is doing is the equivilent of plotting to ensure that that nuclear war benefits her political party in the resulting redistricting. Outrageous.

 

3. We can see into her head, and what we see is ugly. I find the speculation about Egwene's motivations and attitudes fruitful only when we don't have direct knowledge of what she is thinking. We have Egwene POVs that give us that direct knowledge in a number of cases. Egwene doesn't think to herself, "If only Rand would EXPLAIN why he thinks he needs to break the seals." She just thinks she knows better. She doesn't think to herself, "You know, Nynaeve has spent a lot of time with Rand lately, and I trust her judgment. Maybe I should follow up later on why she isn't sure Rand's idea is crazy. But I'll oppose that plan until I have a chance to talk to her about it and consider her answers." She just thinks that Nynaeve has been spending to much time with Rand and is caught in the Ta'Veren effect. She doesn't think to herself, "I love and respect Gawyn, I just wish he would realize the difficult position I am in as a young, new Amyrlin, and defer to me in public." Instead, even her thoughts indicate that she expects not just public deference of the sort she demands of Nynaeve, but actual submission to her will.

 

4. She has a completely unfounded belief in the superiority of her own judgment, and the necessity for all to defer to her. I realize that all Aes Sedai do, but it is far worse in her case. Someone like Cadsuane might be able to say to herself, with some justification, “You know, self, I’ve seen a lot in the last 400 years. My experience is superior to that of virtually anyone alive.” A Brown (take your pick) might be able to say to herself, with some justification, “I have spent decades studying this question. My knowledge of the subject is superior to that of virtually anyone else.” Egwene is an unschooled, 19-year-old who came to her position mostly by dint of being the candidate least objectionable to all of the various factions. She has neither the experience nor the knowledge to justify her belief that she always knows best. It would be fine if she recognized this, but thought she needed to put on a brave face due to her position. But there is nothing in her POVs that suggests that she does. She just thinks she knows best.

 

5. Rand isn’t a king. I have seen a number of comments to the effect of, “No leader should be unquestioned.” Interestingly, this apparently applies only when Rand is the leader in question. Questioning our teenage Amyrlin remains verboten. But regardless, Rand is not a “leader.” He is the Dragon Reborn, the living fulfillment of the Prophecies, the Messiah come to save the World. All major characters accept this. He is the only hope of victory over the Shadow. He has been given special gifts to help him do this. And yet Egwene thinks he should, “Submit to the guidance of the Tower?” If there is a Second Coming of Jesus, will he be expected to “submit himself to the guidance” of Pat Robertson?

 

6. She pits herself against the pattern. She believes that anyone opposing her must be swept up in Ta’veren effects. Because of course no one behaving rationally could possibly oppose HER! But lets say she’s right, and Nynaeve (for example) has been swept up in Rand’s ta’veren influence. What exactly is that influence? It is the freakin’ Pattern , the motive force of the Universe, bending itself around someone in order to accomplish something that must happen. So not only is Egwene’s judgment superior to that of the Dragon Reborn, the Aiel Wise One, all the centuries-old Aes Sedai, her friends, and every other human on the planet. Her judgment is superior to the working of the Universe itself. Okey-dokie.

 

7. She’s a good, old-fashioned sexist. No other way to put it, really. Again, we don’t need to simply divine this from her actions (although we certainly could.) We see her thoughts. And she continues to hold female chauvinist beliefs. It is instructive, I think, to see how much she objects to women being bonded to male channelers. Not Aes Sedai, that’s not how she thinks of them. WOMEN. But women bonding men is just fine. It's interesting, I think, that the female Foresaken don't have the same sorts of sexist thoughts in their POVs that Egwene does in hers. In this regard, at least, she is a worse person than Lanfear or Graendel.

 

8. Her actions toward Perrin in TAR. Are not just arrogant, they’re potentially deadly. Trying to tie him up in the middle of a battle? And don’t tell me, “Oh, she was just doing that while she pushed him out of the Dream.” In the first place, we haven’t seen anything to suggest that immobilizing someone is necessary or even helpful in pushing them out of the Dream. In the second place, she says something like, “I’m sorry Perrin, I’ll be back for you.” She was clearly planning on leaving him in place while she ran off and fought the battle.

 

9. No respect for the man she supposedly loves. A.) No apology for Gawyn about the Blackknives. No thanks for saving her life. Bitch move. She knows she was wrong, but still won’t admit it. B.) No personal note asking him to return when he leaves (after she tells him she doesn’t need him). She has no official right to control his actions. He is not a Warder, or serving in her army. She has only a personal tie. And yet the note is sent by a flunky she knows dislikes men in general and Gawyn in particular. Bitch. C.) Even after events have proven that Gawyn’s judgment isn’t bad and has in at least one instance been correct while hers has been wrong, she is dismissive of his warning about Perrin and the armies. Fool.

 

10. No help for the Borderlands. Can’t allow that to get in the way of her gathering armies to herself. Because you know, she might need those armies if Rand, “Forces her hand.”

Egwene is awful. Simply awful. If there were justice in WOT world, she would be stilled and executed. But there is no justice in WOT world, or in modern publishing, so she’ll probably not even suffer any public embarrassment.

 

A perfect summary of why I can't stand Rand fanboys. Frequent hypocritical criticisms of other characters, but it's OK if Rand does the same thing (or worse). Please try to see the world w/out Rand colored glasses on.

 

Nice rebuttal to your drivel early on, but I'll take a shot as well. Point for deluded point.

 

1. Instinctively opposing Rand?

 

She doesn't instinctively oppose Rand, she instinctively opposes breaking the seals. Which is completely sane given what most in Randland believe. Does Moiraine smash the seals she finds? Does Rand earlier in the book? Does Taim? Do Elayne and Nynaeve? No, no, and no. You rightly criticize Egwene for not trying to come up with an alternative plan (or maybe it is just poor writing that hasn't shown that to us), but Rand doesn't have a plan either, yet he is determined to press forward without one. Only Min seems to be actively trying to figure it out. Why don't you criticize Rand for the same thing? I smell a fanboy/hypocrite. Lastly, all the reports she has on Rand (from Nynaeve, and anyone who has been around him lately) is that he is violent, tyrannical, and borderline insane (as Tam rightly said). She has no way to know the changes he's undergone. SHE is the one that wants to talk about it, and he refuses and rushes off and then does nothing for 22 days.

 

2. WT Control of all female channelers?

 

She is doing nothing of the kind. She is setting up an exchange program that will benefit all parties and every society. She entirely has let the Kin and the Wise Ones and the Windfinders go their own way. She hasn't tried to impose AS rules on them in any way at all. Unlike many other AS we've read about. Seriously, the fact that you don't get this makes me think you are not worth responding to.

 

3. Egwene's head is ugly?

 

No, it isn't. Or at least not always. In Ch. 3 we see that she can't think of him as a criminal (though Rand does see himself so), nor the Dragon reborn, but Rand al'Thor. She's put herself on the line for him a bunch of times (Fal Dara, Tear, Cairhien).

 

BTW, is was Siuan who thought Nynaeve was spending to much time with Rand (her POV), not Egwene. And again, she DID try to talk about it, but Rand refused. By the way, why do you think Rand is right? LTT got it wrong, has stated that the women may have been right to deny him aid, and admitted he has no plan. And by the way, she IS Amyrlin. If he's going to be her Warder, she CAN order him around. And he is going to have to trust her first.

 

Still, I hated the way Gawyn/Egwene thing was written (and it was poor). The whole "I would have bonded him earlier if he knew he loved me" was beyond stupid, but I blame the writing.

 

4. Egwene always thinks she knows best, and has only gotten lucky to gain her position?

 

Egwene has been schooled extensively by some of the best teachers in the world. She's been schooled by the some of the best of the Wise Ones (Amys, Bair, Melaine). By Moiraine in her early teachings and in Tear and in the Waste. She's gotten some politics 101 from Siuan (one of the best political Amyrlin's around), from Leane (almost as good a schemer as Siuan), and from Elayne (who learned from Morgase who learned from Thom). She may be young, but she has had good teachers, and has seen a lot of different cultures close up (Two Rivers, Fal Dara, Falme, Seanchan, Tear, Aiel Waste, Cairhein, Tar Valon). She's probably more well traveled than most sisters who are older. She often accepts advice when it is good (Siuan, even Gawyn) and she definitely IS taken aback a bit when Elayne and Nynaeve don't agree with her about Rand.

 

Plus, she gained her position through a lot of skill, determination, and self-sacrifice. She's earned that stole. She was willing to die rather than accept a Tower divided. People love Galad for his sacrifice with the Whitecloaks, but his certainties that he always knows the right thing are a sun beside's Egwene's candle.

 

 

5. Crazed non-sense from you here. All major characters accept that Rand is always right and should not be questioned? The Aiel beat him up on a regular basis. The Wise Ones certainly thinks he needs to be guided. As do Cadsuane. As does Siuan. Moiraine realizes early that he needs to free to dance to his own song. Even Nynaeve doesn't really get there until ToM/tGS. Plus, you miss the plain fact that if the other characters would have stepped aside and not questioned Rand, or tried to help him, we'd have Darth Rand and the world would be doomed.

 

Heck, he got Mat and Avi killed with his attack on Caemlyn. He could have saved Mo but didn't. He needed Cadsuane to save his bacon (how many times now: Fain in the fog, Far Madding). If Bashere hadn't jumped all over him in Altara, he'd probably have killed everyone with Callandor. And he ignored the advice of every sane advisor he has to go home before he did it. Yet, you think everyone in the series should (and has) bowed to him.

 

And the idea that we all think Egwene shouldn't be questioned is mind blowing. Of course she should. Her hypocrisies on oath's of fealty drive me batty. And in some other areas too. The difference is I rag on both Egwene and Rand for: not addressing the BT (though Rand does blow HER off); not helping Lan (though Rand does have more resources); and not planning better for the LB or how to break the seals. You just take one side.

 

6. Ta'veren.

 

We've seen tons of people in the series swept up by Rand's ta'veren effect (or Perrin's or Mat's). Why is it crazy to think someone else could be? Now, I agree she should trust Nynaeve more, but they have their own issues that make it hard for Eggy to defer to her.

 

7. Sexism.

 

Yes, she is sexist, but so is the whole world. And for good reason. The male channelers broke the world. That's where the sexism comes from, and 3,000 years of women only channelers running things. The WO's have similar thoughts about the Clan Chiefs. And the Windfinders. What about Far Madding? Or Altara? Totally sexist. But the fact that you don't seem to grasp where the sexism came from is breathtaking in it's lack of comprehension.

 

8. Perrin in T'A'R.

 

She isn't trying to tie him up. Brandon has already confirmed this. Again, the way it was written was poor, so I'll forgive you for thinking what you did. But BS has already said she was going to set him aside someplace safe, not leave him there. OK?

 

9. Bitch toward Gawyn.

 

OK. You've got me here. But, then I didn't really mind, since it was Gawyn. Still, her actions were awful.

 

10. Help for the Borderlanders.

 

Again, Rand didn't send help either, and wasn't going to, until he saw Maradon himself, and he waited 20+ days to do that. Why the hell didn't he just show up right after Ch. 3 and save all those people, then go to Bandar Eban? Seriously, what good was feeding Bandar Eban if Maradon was overrun? They'd all be in a cookpot anyway! He had more resources. Has he sent Lan aid after promising he would? No. Has he helped Arafel or Kandor? Doesn't look like it. But you love him and call her a bitch for doing the same thing. Are you sexist, or just blind?

 

You have a point. The fact that the Borderlands didn't get more help from the Dragon of the AS was infuriating. But yet, you only point the finger at Egwene, and not Rand (though he had more resources and more ability to help).

 

"Only the Messiah would fail to help the King of Malkier unless there was good reason for it!"

 

Plus, Egwene is probably worried about sending out a lot of her strength with the Seanchan about. A not unreasonable position given recent events, yes?

-----------------------------------------------------------

 

Look, I'm not saying Egwene is a saint, she isn't. She's often stubborn, arrogant, and wrong-headed. But so are Rand, Mat, Perrin, Egwene, Elayne, Cadsuane, Lan, and just about everyone else we get a POV from except for Min or Thom.

 

Again, Mr. Fanboy, take of the Rand colored glasses.

 

 

well said.

 

Oh and let me say this. So what if egwene is arrogant. I don't think she is but so what. She has earned the right to be arrogant. She reunited the tower, purged the black ajah and destroyed a forsaken. More power to her.

[Braden]

Alright this post has alot of good points on both sides but the post quoted below I think sums up why Egwene is seen as a @#$%# where Rand is forgiven of fault.

 

---Elan Tedronai

 

Today, 08:23 PM

 

Ha it's so funny seeing the rand al thor brigade up in arms the moment someone questions their saviour. A saviour who was one step away from destroying the entire pattern. Egwene has her faults but this constant vilfying of hers is funny. only brought about because she dared not grovel to messiah rand al thor.

 

 

May be rand the messiah should try and explain to egwene on why the seals must be broken. It's a lot better than ultimatums. But first he should try and sort his black tower out just like how egwene sorted hers.---

 

Seriously? Why is it that if the 'haters' are only hating because of Rand are people bringing up other incidents? If everything I have read in this thread says anything, it is that this thing with Rand is the LEAST of their complaints. I an not and Egwene hater like many, but I do find that at times she displays a serious lack of humility, an unwillingness to hear and take into consideration others knowledge and opinion, and (to repeat everyone) know it all complex.

 

I have also read quite a few people say that Rand has made HUGE mistakes and yes he almost destroyed everything. But... He didn't. He shows regret and remorse. He is trying to make reparations. He APOLOGIZES! He cried... He acknowledged all the mistakes and wrongs. Egwene does not believe she has or apparently ever will make any, according to her POV. To me, there in lies the difference between her and other characters that have been stupid or arrogant or blundered. They usually recognize and repent. I don't really hate her but would like her to grow up. Even the most powerful people in our world and theirs take and use advice, opinion and knowledge. Even tuon... Ugh.

 

Before Egwene defenders jump on me about being a Rand supporter or not liking strong female characters let me say:

 

My favorite characters in the series are Min, Elayne (though she is a little, jump first think about it later), Aviendha and Perrin (though his role prior to ToM was somewhat boring).

 

That being said I like Rand more then Egwene for many reasons, many of which are summed up by other posters. This sentence essentially conveys alot of it:

 

"Egwene does not believe she has or apparently ever will make any mistakes, according to her POV. To me, there in lies the difference between her and other characters that have been stupid or arrogant or blundered. They usually recognize and repent. I don't really hate her but would like her to grow up. Even the most powerful people in our world and theirs take and use advice, opinion and knowledge. Even tuon... Ugh."

 

I could almost forgive her behaviour if we didn't have her PoV's. Her PoV's enforce my feelings about her. She ALWAYS thinks she is in the right, she NEVER considers other people to know more then her and she uses people to better herself regardless of who they are.

 

Yes you can say Rand does this too but he at least feels bad about it in his PoV's. He has resigned himself to do what he can for the world and he will use everything at his disposal to do so. All we get from Egwene PoV's is her thoughts on how to exploit others and get her own way.

 

Yes I agree alot of her actions are for the good but they are usually for the good of Egwene or the WT NOT the world. Her actions make sense given her station / circumstances, but don't say this and then turn around and rip into Rand for his misgivings. Rand was literally dealing with going mad, he had to use saidin to perform his duties and protect himself and others thereby driving himself mad. Nyneave tries to cure Rand in ToM and sees the extent to which the corruption of Saidin had effected him, compare that to a man hallucinating with a fraction of the same affliction.

 

Additionally Rand has been handed sole responsibility by Egwene supporters for the whole world apparently. Yes he is the saviour of humanity but he is not an omnipotent being, he can only be in one place at a time and can deal with only one probelm at a time. He knows the BT is a problem and has not dealt with them where Egwene has fixed the WT. What else has Egwene done though? really?

 

Rand has alot more on his plate and cares for the world as a whole not just one institution like Egwene seems to feel. He has been dealing with food shortages, Trollocs invading, starvation and anarchy in some nations, the Seanchan invasion, establishing world peace... Egwene has fixed one problem of AS civil war which was resolved more by the Seanchan then any of her actions.

 

Can you really blame people for not likeing Egwenes character. Really read her PoV's and put yourself in the shoes of an Amrilyn who knows that TG is approaching and tell me she has her head on straight. Yes Rand wants to break the seals and I have NO problem with her questioning him on this but to not work towards finding a solution but rather make the problem worse by raising armies against him.... that really the actions an Amrilyn should do?

[Hatrel]

I cannot remember if it was in this thread or the Rand and Egween Thread where someone was considering that Egwene was acting the way that she is towards Rand due to some Compulsion that Halima was dropping on her during the headache sessions. However, that would not work right now because Rand balefired Halima into oblivion and that would have removed any Compulsion that she would have placed on Egwene.

 

In regards to the haters of Egwene or Rand, I think that we have to look at it like this. These people have made mistakes, errors in judgement and even straight out selfish acts. Guess what? THEY ARE HUMAN!! It is why many of us read these books because these are not the Perfect, never-make-a-mistake-type of heroes. They screw up.

 

I keep coming back to this point however. The Pattern will find a way! It takes all of the actions of the players and makes it fit to what it wants. Sometimes using Rand, Mat or Perrin to give things a boost, but ultimately things will work out to what needs to happen.

 

think on this. Perhaps Egwene not coming up with a plan is going to be exactly what Rand needs to get the nations behind him. In his new enlightened state, he might turn to Egwene, after she makes some empassioned speech about his insane plan to break the seals, and says "So what do you think that I should do? What have you found in the library at the White Tower that will guarentee that we can create a plan that will work?" Then he explains why removing the broken crap first allows for a more complete build of the seal and Mat and Perrin will add their Ta'veren juice to his arguement and everyone will see his point and follow him to SG.

 

So in reality, Egwene's stubborn refusal to blindly follow Rand (not that I blame her as she thinks that he is still insane) and her invitation to many of the world's leaders to attend the summit (Some that may not have attended except for her pressure) all fits into the Pattern.

 

So when you think that you might have done different in someone else's position, remember that you have more information that she does as you have already seen that Rand has become Superman and is sane now.

[Elan Tedronai]

oh really so now we are to forgive rand's mistakes because he shows remorse and regret. well i would hope the great one would show some bit of remorse after going on a rampage and nearly destroying the world.

 

To equate looney rand's atrocities and mistakes with those of egwene is just frankly laughable. why should egwene show any remorse? she didnt go on a balefire killing spree or nearly killed her own dad.

[David Selig]

I cannot remember if it was in this thread or the Rand and Egween Thread where someone was considering that Egwene was acting the way that she is towards Rand due to some Compulsion that Halima was dropping on her during the headache sessions. However, that would not work right now because Rand balefired Halima into oblivion and that would have removed any Compulsion that she would have placed on Egwene.

I doesn't work that way. Even with Choedan Kal's massive balefire torrent which Rand unleashed on Aran'gar, only few days or so would've been erased from Aran'gar's life. The Compulsion would've been put on much earlier.

 

But I am 100% here's no Compulsion in this case anyway. Egwene is acting the same way towards Rand as she has been doing for most of the series, always questioning his decisions and thinking she knows better than him.

[randsc]

At the very least, you have to acknowledge this:

 

If the intent was to make Egwene a sympathetic character, Jordan and Sanderson failed. She is easily the most hated WOT character, that is immediately obvious on any WOT forum. At Theoryland, threads are actually closed for something refered to as, "excessive Egwene hate." If you are an author trying to write a sympathetic sharacter, and more than half your readership hates the character, you're doing something wrong.

[randsc]

 

Blah, blah, blah, quoth the Egwene fangurl

 

 

 

 

I'm an AVIENDHA fanboy, actually. Try to keep up.

[lhsmommy]

***Elan Tedronai

 

Today, 08:38 AM

 

oh really so now we are to forgive rand's mistakes because he shows remorse and regret. well i would hope the great one would show some bit of remorse after going on a rampage and nearly destroying the world.

 

To equate looney rand's atrocities and mistakes with those of egwene is just frankly laughable. why should egwene show any remorse? she didnt go on a balefire killing spree or nearly killed her own dad.***

 

WOW... You are an Egwene fanboy... Explains a lot.

 

Now, let's just say there's this pretty nice guy, good heart, some smarts. He is put in a position of power. Then, one day, he develops schizophrenia. Let's just say... Now, his illness effects his judgement. He makes mistakes and outrageous commands and does horrible things. Then Dr. Phil diagnoses him and gives the guy meds that return his sanity. He looks at what he did when ill and is truly horrified. He holds himself responsible and expects others to as well. In our society, he would probably get off.

 

So, Rand does hold himself responsible. He expects others to as well. He told the Aiel 'I have toh.' He acknowledges what he has done as horrific and terrible and just plain dumb. Do I totally forgive him, no. Do I understand that insanity does limit ones ability to reason and control ones self. Absolutely!

 

Is Egwene insane? Nope. Everything that people dislike about her are within the realms of her control. She is snarky and calculating and hypocritical. I DO NOT hate her, nor do I find fault with her response to Rand's 'gonna break the seals.' The pattern need everybody together in one place. I do find fault that she NEVER finds fault within herself nor does she ever acknowledge that SHE has ever made a mistake. Not that hers were worse or any such crud. No acknowledgment or remorse or humility on her part.

[David Selig]

Can I just say how much I dislike when a discussion about one character start shifting towards the lines of "Yes, this was bad from him/her, but character X did worse". This is neither relevant, nor a valid excuse. Seems like most of the arguemts the Egwene come up in this thread are "Yesm but Rand did the same" instead of arguing the real point.

 

Egwene has done her bit. In the very same hall meeting where the hall votes to remove the Amyrlins power over the WT army, and leave her to the political side of things, she informs the hall that the borderlands are being overun. The hall is now in power of the army, Egwene has informed them that the borderlands are in trouble. Job Done.

Are you kidding me? The Tower Guard is just a minor fraction of the Aes Sedai's military strength. Their main force are the sisters themselves, and she hasn't given over control of them. True, she would've need to work out some agreement with the Hall, but she didn't even try. The Borderlanders were the last thing on her mind, she was too busy with her other plans. Why should she care people are getting eaten by Trollocs while the Aes Sedai are sittin in their tower playing petty politics...

[randsc]

The Borderlanders were the last thing on her mind, she was too busy with her other plans. Why should she care people are getting by Trollocs while the Aes Sedai are sittin in their tower playing petty politics...

 

That's the typical Aes Sedai MO.

 

Some people claim that Aes Sedai haters won't be happy unless the Aes Sedai all end up groveling at Rand's feet. Untrue.

 

I want them groveling at the feet of every parent in Randland who lost a child to a fever, while those gifted with the ability to magically heal sat in their ivory tower.

[David Selig]

What I don't get is how come the Aes Sedai are held in such high regard in the Borderlands. They've basically abandoned those guys to fight with the Trollocs alone, completely disregarding their supposed their main mission to fight the Shadow, and instead sit at Tar Valon and play politics. They should be hated there. In TEOTW there was a huge Trolloc invasion in Shienar, which had been gathering strength for months, yet Moiraine was the only Aes Sedai there to help the defenders, and that was by accident.

[lhsmommy]

The Borderlanders were the last thing on her mind, she was too busy with her other plans. Why should she care people are getting by Trollocs while the Aes Sedai are sittin in their tower playing petty politics...

 

That's the typical Aes Sedai MO.

 

Some people claim that Aes Sedai haters won't be happy unless the Aes Sedai all end up groveling at Rand's feet. Untrue.

 

I want them groveling at the feet of every parent in Randland who lost a child to a fever, while those gifted with the ability to magically heal sat in their ivory tower.

 

Well said. As servants of all they just fail, abysmally. Servants to themselves and their own personal belief in their innate superiority a big giant success. Ugh...

 

Jen-

[IoCaster]

Eggys dream in LoC:

 

"Him walking toward a burning mountain, something crunching beneath his boots. She stirred and whimpered; the crunching things were the seals on the Dark One's prison, shattering with his every step."

 

It seems kind of strange that she has either forgotten or refuses to acknowledge it.

 

Why strange that she forgot it?  People forget things.  I know: she always remembers her dreams.  But that's only immediately after having them.  I don't see why she couldn't forget them later, just like any of a million other things she's likely forgotten.  It would have been nice if it had been referenced, but I don't see it as a problem.  Besides, it could be that Brandon is saving that moment where she remembers it for the next book.  Not sure it'll help much if she does: the narrative there makes it clear she thought that was a rather bad dream.

 

 

 

 

She is a Dreamer. That's some pretty explicit foretelling and I'm curious as to whether she forgot the dream or came up with some interpretation that doesn't result in Rand breaking the seals. If she has persuaded herself that it was just a 'bad dream' and refuses to reconsider after Rand tells her what he plans to do, well then...?

[randsc]

What I don't get is how come the Aes Sedai are held in such high regard in the Borderlands. They've basically abandoned those guys to fight with the Trollocs alone, completely disregarding their supposed their main mission to fight the Shadow, and instead sit at Tar Valon and play politics. They should be hated there. In TEOTW there was a huge Trolloc invasion in Shienar, which had been gathering strength for months, yet Moiraine was the only Aes Sedai there to help the defenders, and that was by accident.

 

I agree completely.

 

Why are there not Greens attached to every Borderland army? Why are there not Yellows available to heal the wounded. Why are there not Reds around to deal with potential Dreadlords?

 

For that matter, why is there not a hospital in each of the world's major cities, staffed with a couple of Yellows? That Elayne is taking care of this is the greatest point in her favor. But why had it occured to no one before?

 

The Browns do important work...important work that could be done as well by people without the innate ability to heal the sick. Whites...well, I don' want to get into a debate with every liberal arts major on the board about how useful their work is. But useful or not, it could be done by non-channelers. The meddling of the Blues is behind much of the dislike of the Tower in Randland. So that was something Elaida got right.

[Jeangray]

 

1. She opposes Rand instinctively, with no plan of her own.

 

She had a prophetic dream , so it was hardly completely instinctive. As to whatever plans she might have, they have been deliberately excluded from ToM. Not to say that they won't turn out to be complete suckage, but at this point we just don't know. Certainly, Verin's ideas re: what the DO wants and how this battle is really going to be fought might provide Egwene with some hints.

 

2. But if the breaking the seals is the WOT equivilent of nuclear war, as some claim, than what Egwene is doing is the equivilent of plotting to ensure that that nuclear war benefits her political party in the resulting redistricting. Outrageous.

 

At the same time, it would make whole-hearted working alliance _during_ the TG that much easier. And who is to say that the Seanchan wouldn't need dealing with with combined forces before then?

 

4. Egwene is an unschooled, 19-year-old who came to her position mostly by dint of being the candidate least objectionable to all of the various factions. She has neither the experience nor the knowledge to justify her belief that she always knows best.

 

But wasn't it one of the main features of WoT that ignorance is bliss and therefore a group of teen-twen-age newbs would be so much better at saving the world than everybody else? People who just started to channel are making all the fabulous inventions, because knowledge and experience only blinkers and limits in that world, apparently. I mean, generals are the only people in WoT who seem to actually profit by experience ;) and even then a reluctant farmboy with a memory download is clearly the superior version :). So, yea, isn't it strange to bring it up with Egwene, when it is one of WoT's mainstay quirks?

 

5. But regardless, Rand is not a “leader.” He is the Dragon Reborn, the living fulfillment of the Prophecies, the Messiah come to save the World.

 

"Weep for us, who have no more tears, pray for us who are damned alive" or something along those lines. That was the result of the Dragon's actions in the last age. Better than complete anihilation, sure, but Dragon is not just the Messiah in WoT universe, but the Antichrist in equal measure. In fact, his negative aspect was rather more prominent in people's minds throughout the 3rd Age, no doubt due in great part to troubles with False Dragons et al.

And if female AS had not stood up to LTT the last time around, saidar would have also been tainted and it would have been curtains for humanity (RJ confirmed it). So, yea, there is not much reason for them to believe the Dragon infallible.

 

6. She pits herself against the pattern.

 

Does she? Rand seemed to think differently.

 

7. She’s a good, old-fashioned sexist.

 

And which WoT character, either male or female, isn't? They all spew their prejudices at every opportunity, it is just that female ones are novel and consequently attract more attention.

Re: men bonding women, well after a look into the heads of folks like Naeff and Androl, I'd have reservations, too. When/if Nynaeve Heals them all, well... And of course there is an issue of that perfect Compulsion that can be inserted into it and the fact that male bond seems to have no advantages for the bondees, like the female one does.

 

Perrin and Gawyn issues are just badly written, IMHO. With Perrin, Sanderson has already admitted in a Q&A that Egwene's intention was to take him somewhere safe. Too bad it didn't come through in the text.

With Gawyn, the main source of his problems in the series was that had been dismissing opinions and choices of women whom he professed to love and insisting that _he_ knew better, whilst making one disastrous decision after another. Well, obviously that needed to be resolved, what with Egwene becoming a ruler.

But the actual resolution was less than satisfying, not to mention extremely contrived. I mean, Egwene's vaunted defenses could be overcome by shoving one person in, really? Moiraine was able to ward her room against entry completely in TGH! And what happened to Egwene's alarms and extra guards, etc?

 

10. No help for the Borderlands.

 

Indeed. No cuiendillar armor assembly line either, which is extremely disappointing. Can't have the WT doing anything so useful.

 

Egwene is awful. Simply awful. If there were justice in WOT world, she would be stilled and executed. But there is no justice in WOT world, or in modern publishing, so she’ll probably not even suffer any public embarrassment.

 

Hm, rather over the top! I'd say that it goes more towards RJ's problems with convincingly depicting capable female leaders (or female organizations that don't completely suck) and his quirky ideas of what makes a strong woman.

[Durinax]

actually I wouldnt level blame at just the blue for meddling too much. They all do it entirely too much, and are set to meddle until the wheel itself stops or the WT falls.

 

I just hope that egwene figures out how to destroy all the old traditions in the tower, especially the ones about not looking over each others backs, thats how the black ajah was able to flourish. Plus does anyone else find it odd that egwene does nothing to prevent more sisters from changing to the dark side? or to prevent another BA infection from happening?

[David Selig]

For that matter, why is there not a hospital in each of the world's major cities, staffed with a couple of Yellows? That Elayne is taking care of this is the greatest point in her favor. But why had it occured to no one before?

It wouldn't surprise me at all if Egwene tries to stop that plan. It would certainly make the Aes Sedai look bad in comparison and their prestige is way more important to them than common people dying.

[Braden]

The Borderlanders were the last thing on her mind, she was too busy with her other plans. Why should she care people are getting by Trollocs while the Aes Sedai are sittin in their tower playing petty politics...

 

That's the typical Aes Sedai MO.

 

Some people claim that Aes Sedai haters won't be happy unless the Aes Sedai all end up groveling at Rand's feet. Untrue.

 

I want them groveling at the feet of every parent in Randland who lost a child to a fever, while those gifted with the ability to magically heal sat in their ivory tower.

 

Well said. As servants of all they just fail, abysmally. Servants to themselves and their own personal belief in their innate superiority a big giant success. Ugh...

 

Jen-

I think this is where the WT, Fields of Merrilor and BT plot lines are going to merge... Rand knew that Egwene would do what she has done and gather armies to her. He used her influence as Amrilyn to gather the world leaders together and I am almost certain he is going to use this to sue for peace.

 

As we know from the famous quote in ToM, "You may call me Rand Sedai". Rand considers himself the oldest Aes Sedai and not an Asha'Man. The BT is building male channellers into combatents because that is what Rand himself thought he was initially. Now that saidin is cleansed and the deeds of Asha'Man are spreading along with the knowledge that they won't go mad the AS have competition.

 

I think together the male and female AS will become the enforcers of the Dragons Peace. The WT will no longer hold the power it currently has and will become public servants. On topic of healing the sick ... I really respect the move Elayne made to solidify the Kinswomen to her in that regard.

[randsc]

For that matter, why is there not a hospital in each of the world's major cities, staffed with a couple of Yellows? That Elayne is taking care of this is the greatest point in her favor. But why had it occured to no one before?

It wouldn't surprise me at all if Egwene tries to stop that plan. It would certainly make the Aes Sedai look bad in comparison and their prestige is way more important to them than common people dying.

 

Could be. Egwene is horrible, after all.

 

But you would think the Tower would have done these sorts of field postings before now. If for no other reason than self-interest.

 

What better way for Yellows to encounter interesting and challenging cases? What better way for the so-called (but so far largely worthless) "Battle Ajah" to actually get some experience with battle?

[Elan Tedronai]

At the very least, you have to acknowledge this:

 

If the intent was to make Egwene a sympathetic character, Jordan and Sanderson failed. She is easily the most hated WOT character, that is immediately obvious on any WOT forum. At Theoryland, threads are actually closed for something refered to as, "excessive Egwene hate." If you are an author trying to write a sympathetic sharacter, and more than half your readership hates the character, you're doing something wrong.

 

 

RJ and sanderson didnt fail. From the moment in LOC when she was raised to amyrlin and had to fight from being controlled by romanda and co to her standing up to elaida, all painted egwene as someone who is a strong character who deserves our sympathy.

 

Yes she's hated alot looking at forums. And that's because she does not bow down to the great messiah al thor. Rand al thor fanboys are the firemost of the haters. They can't stand anyone who does not grovel at their master's feet.

[Jillain Sanche]

There certainly is much more partisanship for Rand as opposed to his childhood sweetheart! ROFLMAO!!! And the next time you are put out in RL over something a 19-year-old does, or says, try to remember that at 19 a person is not yet mature and far more apt to make all kinds of mistakes than a mature person. That is normal. Yet in real life and in fantasy which reflects many aspects of real life, often war pushes youth into positions for which they will not be as competent as they would with years of "seasoning." Elayne has had great teachers and a lot of seasoning for her age, but that was counted in months and she is still 19.

 

I foretell some of you may be in for surprises when the stuff hits the fan in the Last Battle.

[Bob T Dwarf]

At the very least, you have to acknowledge this:

 

If the intent was to make Egwene a sympathetic character, Jordan and Sanderson failed. She is easily the most hated WOT character, that is immediately obvious on any WOT forum. At Theoryland, threads are actually closed for something refered to as, "excessive Egwene hate." If you are an author trying to write a sympathetic sharacter, and more than half your readership hates the character, you're doing something wrong.

 

 

RJ and sanderson didnt fail. From the moment in LOC when she was raised to amyrlin and had to fight from being controlled by romanda and co to her standing up to elaida, all painted egwene as someone who is a strong character who deserves our sympathy.

 

Yes she's hated alot looking at forums. And that's because she does not bow down to the great messiah al thor. Rand al thor fanboys are the firemost of the haters. They can't stand anyone who does not grovel at their master's feet.

 

Nobody should be groveling at anyone's feet.

 

I dislike Egwene because she fails to cop a clue. Because she cannot choose a course and stick to it. First she's going to eliminate the Oaths because she ( rightly ) realizes they are worthless and serve only to alienate the people rather than reassure them. Now she can't wait to have everybody she can get her hands on take those worthless oaths.

 

As many point out, she seems incapable of acknowledging her own mistakes. Incapable of treating her friends fairly.

 

Both her actions and those of her thoughts that we get to see show her to be an incredible hypocrite.

 

In short, she presents a series of character traits that I simply cannot like.

[Durinax]

Yes she's hated alot looking at forums. And that's because she does not bow down to the great messiah al thor. Rand al thor fanboys are the firemost of the haters. They can't stand anyone who does not grovel at their master's feet.

actually if you read through most of us arent angered by the fact she doesnt bow down to rand, its that she hypocritical, always thinks and says the same thing especially when it comes to controlling rand, her arrogence about all matters concerning her abilities (especially while she is learning), plus her backsliding when transitioning from tutors to tutor.

 

The only problem i have with her gathering people against rand is that she isnt even trying to come up with a plan that we can see.

 

and then theres how she dealt with gawyn, she left him in limbo, just hanging out, and when he tried to go find purpose in his life she got angry that he left her and ordered him to come back to limbo.

[Hopefire]

 

RJ and sanderson didnt fail. From the moment in LOC when she was raised to amyrlin and had to fight from being controlled by romanda and co to her standing up to elaida, all painted egwene as someone who is a strong character who deserves our sympathy.

 

Yes she's hated alot looking at forums. And that's because she does not bow down to the great messiah al thor. Rand al thor fanboys are the firemost of the haters. They can't stand anyone who does not grovel at their master's feet.

 

Grovel at the feet of Rand al'Thor? By that standard, I also grovel at the feet of Mat, Elayne, Moiraine, Aviendha, Cadsuane, Galad, Gareth, Gawyn, Lan, Logain, Siuan, Tam, Thom and Verin. Furthermore, I grovel on my belly for Nynaeve and Min.

 

In any case: your argument essentially is boiling down to "people hate Egwene because she disagrees with Rand," whereas throughout this thread people have been essentially saying "we dislike Egwene because of how she acts without awareness of the big picture, shows very little capacity for self-reflection, and shows a great deal of hubris." The problem is not that she disagrees with Rand or that she's indicates she'll oppose him; the problem that I and others have with her as a person is how she goes about her position.

 

It makes for a woman who is a fantastic character, but who is also somewhat less that sympathetic as a person.

[anotherfingolfin]

oh really so now we are to forgive rand's mistakes because he shows remorse and regret......

......why should egwene show any remorse? she didnt go on a balefire killing spree or nearly killed her own dad.

so you hold no value for penitence. many people do, when it is sincere. maybe this is part of a reason for a paradigm difference in outlooks. and really, you think remorse should only be felt for those extremes, and all smaller mistakes and wrongings are not worthy of any regret?

 

Oh and let me say this. So what if egwene is arrogant... ....More power to her.

again, maybe you hold a different outlook on arrogance. it implies something negative. if you think arrogance is ok, then you will not understandably not grasp the crux of what bothers so many people about Egwene. since a lot of gripes people have, stem from this core trait of hers. so maybe there is no point in arguing this.

 

Yes she's hated alot looking at forums. And that's because she does not bow down to the great messiah al thor. Rand al thor fanboys are the firemost of the haters. They can't stand anyone who does not grovel at their master's feet.

really? that attempt at sarcasm or whatever that comment was really doesn't make any sense. i may be off base with this but to me it reads like you are taking it a bit to personally.

let alone that you once again ignore that many thought out arguments given about her character, have NOTHING TO DO WITH RAND.

 

EDIT: on a side note, with regards to her interaction with Perrin in T'A'R- it's not that she tried to tie him up that bothers me. though not the smartest thing, it was just instinctive, which i understand. it was later on, when she thinks, "How had he grown so confident, so strong? She hadn't been surprised by the things he'd done so much as by the fact that he had been the one doing them."

once again showing her inability to give due credit even internally, and her incredulity at the thought that anybody else may have become powerful.