Discuss Egwene

[Durinax]

i dont really hate egwene, nor am i a rand fan, but egwene's attitude in this book is, in my mind, what has set off most of the haters on their rampage. i know it set me off. on that note, rand ASKED her to oppose him! he TOLD her to gather those who oppose and meet with him. she is doing just that. rand is going to do what he does no matter what, no-one can stop him. but the arrogance that she has in not even trying to think "why would rand do that?" is what gets me. she treated gawyn, who incidentally i have always liked, like a heap of fish turd, she wouldnt listen to reason from anyone, and she constantly ignored everyone elses point of views when they were voiced to her. Gawyn was correct in telling her the deaths were not messaana she dismissed him because he couldnt possibly know anything about battle or politics, or assassins, its not like he grew up in a palace or anything, nor is it like he had to fight his way through the whitecloaks to get to TV. so she is perfectly justified in ignoring people who do have experience? i dont think so. her lack of remorse in any way whatsoever also strikes me as not only odd but a major reason to dislike her now. remember i like egwene. however she doesnt think in this book. the unification of the channellers was amazing! very well thought out, and designed to weed out weaknesses that the tower has had for years, it shows that she knows the aes sedai arent perfect or all knowing creatures of all powerfullness, but that they have much to learn. can you imagine sylviana being tied to a mast by her toes? or running around the camp in the freezing night of the waste naked? what will this do to the aes sedai? as for weeding out the BA, it is fairly easy, immediately after taking the oaths, you swear, not on the OR but that does not matter, that you will fight the shadow for as long as you live. binding and no way around it, and if someone has second thoughts, they wont be able to swear, they are then put to the question. so it is easily taken care of. plus the fact that there is not one single member of the BA left to help recruit, or secure the OR, or anything else. all in all she did turn a bit into a power hungry warlord type at the end, but i think this has to do with halima and the messages. nynaeve will discover something wrong with her after the battle in caemlyn, and fix it, and the egwene will no longer have quite as many issues. i just thought of one other thing she spent considerable time with fain and that is probably playing a part into all of this as well.

I dont think fain had any real control over his powers at that time, every other character who has had him put his spell over him subsequently degenerated rapidly.

 

she doesnt have any remorse for anything she has done/the lives she put in imminate danger. She does not get held responsible for any losses, betrayals (mostly of trust), or anything else she has done. Plus even though she is playing into rands hands she does not come up with any backup plans.

 

I think thats the bulk of the hatred. and on another note althouhg she is gathering all female channellers to her, she is doing so to bring them underneith of the AS thus eventually they will all be basically AS and/or aspiring AS in the current ages fashion

[Lacanos]

Excuse the dealyed reply, my ability to post is generally tied to how busy work it on any given day.

 

1. Paaran Disen was about to be destroyed. The Light was on the brink of losing. ONly a few days away from total defeat. I suggest you also read up on the history. LTT, while ORIGINALLY when the plan was formed, he knew it was arrogance, and noted this. However, AT THE TIME OF THE SEALING, the shadow was on the brink of victory, THERE WAS NO MORE TIME. So yes, LTT did save the world.

 

To the second point. YEs, As the world was days away from destruction, LTT had to. your wrong there. And it has been prophesied that Rand has to break the seals, or have you forgotten Herid Fel and the Karatheon Cycle? You seriously cant doubt that Rand is wrong on this point? If so, thats just willfull ignorance.

 

And yes, Rand does have to break them now. In case you didnt notice, the Borderlands have been overrun by trollocs, Caemlyn is burning and the shadow is in full swing. The Aes Sedai havent been working on a plan to re-seal the bore in 3000 years, or at least the 2 years when they knew the seals were crumbling. There is NO MORE TIME to sit around. The DO is about to break free anyway. I dont see how hard a concept that is.,

 

Edit: Sorry if this sounds a little agressive, it isnt meant to be. the Caps are just to highlight key points. I forgot about bold type. So yeah, it may seem testy, but it is meant to be good natured.

 

I think you've missed my point. Let me clarify.

 

My issue is that people are confusing winning/losing a war with the destruction of the pattern.

 

LTT had to strike then to win the war. He did not have to strike then to save the pattern. So to say in striking then he saved the pattern is not exactly true.

 

In striking then he ended the war yes, but there's no evidence to suggest the moment the war was lost the pattern would be unmade. The Bore had been wide open for ~100 years, the DO had had every opportunity to unmake the pattern and hadn't yet done so, which suggests that that needs a significant amount of time to achieve. The Dark's forces had every opportunity to free him and hadn't done so, which suggests they couldn't actually do more, or they would have done so to get a further advantage. Even Ishamael was planning to rule for a time, which again suggests that there was time left. So to equate the loss of the war with the immediate destruction of the pattern really doesn't make a lot of sense.

 

I'm not arguing that he has to break the seals. As readers we have clearly been given enough information to see that he does and is going to. I'm saying that there is a logical inconsistancy with arguing that it's ok for Rand to break the seals now, but it was terrible and the end of the world for LTT to leave the bore unsealed for a little longer. And as we know it's not the instant end of the world if Rand breaks the seals, as such it doesn't logically follow that LTT couldn't have left the bore open longer in order to work something better out. To do so may have indeed cost the light the war, but it's unlikely it would have resulted in the immediate destruction of the pattern.

 

Even LTT admits it was a mistake. See ToM Chapter 51 A Testing, where Min and Rand discuss LTT at the end:

 

He made mistakes. I made mistakes. I grew arrogant, desperate.

 

What LTT did was a mistake. It may have ended the war, but it broke the world, and was the result of a rash, desperate, arrogant action that he now recognises was a mistake. So to say it was absolutely the right thing etc etc is just not correct.

 

Alot of what your saying is semantics. The pattern would be destroyed after the light fell. LTT the Dragon, Champion of Light, would have died, and the shadow had no opposition. It doesnt matter what TIME FRAME the DO unravelled the pattern, the point is that the Shadow would have had the final victory. There would be no comming back. The end. Even if it took weeks, or even years. The light would be destroyed.

 

The sealing was not a mistake. it broke the world, yeah, but compared to what? The end of time itself? Are you seriously saying that the DO's victory would be better than the Breaking? That just sounds silly and defending your point to extreme.

 

With the Rand/ LTT hypocracy thing, there are different circumstances. LTT had no choice, or the Shadow would have won. Full Stop. Theres no denying it. Unnless you think that there may have been some miraculous rebellion managing to seal the bore while the DO was basically dominating the world? Which is basically impossible and wishful thinking.

 

Rand knows he has to break the seals. So why wouldnt he do it sooner rather than wait until the light was devistated then do it at the last possible moment. The blame lies with both LTT and Latra. Latra waited too long for some stupid miracle. LTT realised thhey had to act right away. Even though he admits it was not the best plan, Latra was also to blame. She was being an idiot. If you are on death row (which the Light was) you would try to escape (the sealing) no matter the risks involved, as anything is better than death (the DO winning) . Latra's plan was lost to the shadow, they didnt have any time left to think of a new one. THEY WERE WEEKS/DAYS AWAY FROM TOTAL DEFEAT. You take the risk, because its the only plan you have. I seriously cannot believe you cant understand that LTT saved the world from utter destruction. Its not a hard concept. Unless you think that they would come up with a random plan in the days they had left. While the DO grew stronger and the Light slowly being suffocated. You cant exactly make plans while you are being choked by a murderer, you just act on the best thing you can think of.

 

Also, you seem to have left out another important quote.

 

Towers of Midnight Chapter 3: The Amyrlin's Anger:

 

"The last time I tried to seal the Bore, I was forced to do it without the help of the women. That was part of what led to the disaster, though they may have been wise to deny me their strength. Well, blame must be spread evenly, but I will not make the same mistake a second time. I believe that saidin and saidar must both be used."

 

HERE would be a better quote than the one you used. he did acknolwedge IN RETROSPECT, he made a mistake. But I dont know how anyone can doubt it did not save the world from total destruction. It may not have been the most perfect plan, but it was the right one to make at the time. because it was THE ONLY ONE.

 

Also, as the quote points out, the blame lay evenly. In retrospect, it was kinda good they refused to help, but that refusal that led to LTT desperation was a major factor that led to the disaster. To say Latra was all good and right and that LTT was wrong is foolish.

 

In fact, i think that the pattern wanted this to happen. so the BOTH did the right thing. So the blame lies with both, and none, if you understand me. Both LTT and Latra are to blame for the botched sealing, because they didnt work something out together and plan. However, none of them were to blame because it accomplished what the pattern needed in the dire circumstances. The bore sealed. LTT did. And the saidar clean (Latra). Hard to ecxplain, but they were both right AND to blame.

 

This time it will be different. Rand acknolwedges his mistakes that led to the tainting. now Egwene needs to fulfill her part of the bargin by acknowledging Latra's mistakes for not helping. I dont think that the exact same events are going to play out, that Egwene will refuse and Rand seals the bore and taints saidin. The key will be THIS TIME, they will work together to do it right.

Are you drunk or something? Cos I'm drunk, and your metaphors still don't make sense to me... The death row thing, seriously, that's not an apt comparison - Latra Posae (Shadowcutter or whatever name they gave her) thought she had a better plan by using the CK, which isn't unreasonable when one considers the raw power of those sa'angreal.

[Durinax]

@lacanos

 

although it was a decent idea to use that much of the power ot try and overwhelm the DO. after losing the access keys it is a bit foolish to put all your eggs in one basket and keep defending when you lost your fortress type thing. I think she kept the women out of the circles at the end out of spite for LTT but thats my personnal twist, and I can see egwene trying that and being beaten down (figuratively because I can just imagine the outcry if a woman protagonist got beaten by a man in any physical sense)

[capuga]

@lacanos

 

Latra's plan was basically null and void at this point because the Light had lost the access keys. Also, her plan was only to use the CK to contain the Dark One while they figured out how to seal him in some way they felt was less risky than LTT's plan. So they still would have needed another plan for the actual sealing.

[randsc]

Latra's plan amount to, "If only horse apples were candy, all the kiddies could have goodies."

 

A plan that depends on assets that are unavailable to you, and that you have no reasonable expectation will ever be available to you, is not a plan. It is an excuse for doing nothing, because you lack either the courage to support the plan on offer or the wit to devise an alternative.

[gambril]

You mean these White Tower pretend AS

 

You keep mentioning that. Time to back it up. Find a quote that says they're not Aes Sedai.

 

Rand says he was the only one properly raised by the standards of the AoL, he doesn't say he is the only Aes Sedai, he treats them as Aes Sedai and refers to them as Aes Sedai. By the existing rules, which are what counts, they are Aes Sedai.

 

You would make a good current third age 'Aes Sedai' imo. It's very convenient or perhaps disturbring that you ignore what Aes Sedai actually means. If I told you that building was the color white when it's actually the color green, are you going to believe me just because I said it was? You're doing the same thing here. These woman at the White Tower are not Aes Sedai (Servants of All). If you want to blindly believe they're Aes Sedai because they themselves think they are, then by all means continue to do so; just don't ask me to wear your blinders as well.

[johthohar]

I will make bold prediction and say that Rand wants Egwene (or her allies) to kill him at some point. Perhaps he knows that the way he plans to seal the bore/defeat the DO will corrupt him to such a degree that he will become great danger to the world. Something like that.

Good idea.

 

other idea:

He wants to be killed at the Fields of Merilor by Egwene & co so that his soul go back to TAR as any hero does. THERE he can find the ACTUAL seals (and not the "focus points for the seals" and break them. Just like Perrin destroys the Dreamspike in TAR.

 

The only problem with that, other than the lack of knowledge cited by the other dude, is that he can already enter TAR in the flesh. He doesn't need to die to get there.

[haloun]

i dont really hate egwene, nor am i a rand fan, but egwene's attitude in this book is, in my mind, what has set off most of the haters on their rampage. i know it set me off. on that note, rand ASKED her to oppose him! he TOLD her to gather those who oppose and meet with him. she is doing just that. rand is going to do what he does no matter what, no-one can stop him. but the arrogance that she has in not even trying to think "why would rand do that?" is what gets me. she treated gawyn, who incidentally i have always liked, like a heap of fish turd, she wouldnt listen to reason from anyone, and she constantly ignored everyone elses point of views when they were voiced to her. Gawyn was correct in telling her the deaths were not messaana she dismissed him because he couldnt possibly know anything about battle or politics, or assassins, its not like he grew up in a palace or anything, nor is it like he had to fight his way through the whitecloaks to get to TV. so she is perfectly justified in ignoring people who do have experience? i dont think so. her lack of remorse in any way whatsoever also strikes me as not only odd but a major reason to dislike her now. remember i like egwene. however she doesnt think in this book. the unification of the channellers was amazing! very well thought out, and designed to weed out weaknesses that the tower has had for years, it shows that she knows the aes sedai arent perfect or all knowing creatures of all powerfullness, but that they have much to learn. can you imagine sylviana being tied to a mast by her toes? or running around the camp in the freezing night of the waste naked? what will this do to the aes sedai? as for weeding out the BA, it is fairly easy, immediately after taking the oaths, you swear, not on the OR but that does not matter, that you will fight the shadow for as long as you live. binding and no way around it, and if someone has second thoughts, they wont be able to swear, they are then put to the question. so it is easily taken care of. plus the fact that there is not one single member of the BA left to help recruit, or secure the OR, or anything else. all in all she did turn a bit into a power hungry warlord type at the end, but i think this has to do with halima and the messages. nynaeve will discover something wrong with her after the battle in caemlyn, and fix it, and the egwene will no longer have quite as many issues. i just thought of one other thing she spent considerable time with fain and that is probably playing a part into all of this as well.

I dont think fain had any real control over his powers at that time, every other character who has had him put his spell over him subsequently degenerated rapidly.

 

she doesnt have any remorse for anything she has done/the lives she put in imminate danger. She does not get held responsible for any losses, betrayals (mostly of trust), or anything else she has done. Plus even though she is playing into rands hands she does not come up with any backup plans.

 

I think thats the bulk of the hatred. and on another note althouhg she is gathering all female channellers to her, she is doing so to bring them underneith of the AS thus eventually they will all be basically AS and/or aspiring AS in the current ages fashion

 

he didnt have controll, but hye was able to infect the people around him. the gaurds and the prisoners kept getting worse and worse.

[gambril]

I definately never pictured Aviendha as looking like Lucy Lawless!

 

Moreso Lindsay Lohain perhaps? Minus the boozing and drugs of course.

[anotherfingolfin]

I definately never pictured Aviendha as looking like Lucy Lawless!

 

Moreso Lindsay Lohain perhaps? Minus the boozing and drugs of course.

 

Taller and much skinnier. Ok, taller and much leaner, at any rate.

[James71]

You would make a good current third age 'Aes Sedai' imo. It's very convenient or perhaps disturbring that you ignore what Aes Sedai actually means. If I told you that building was the color white when it's actually the color green, are you going to believe me just because I said it was? You're doing the same thing here. These woman at the White Tower are not Aes Sedai (Servants of All). If you want to blindly believe they're Aes Sedai because they themselves think they are, then by all means continue to do so; just don't ask me to wear your blinders as well.

 

The mean of any word can change over time. I would say that in our own society that it happens in far less time than 3,000 years.

 

The meaning or definition or purpose of "Aes Sedai" does not have to stay constant between the AOL and the current RandLand.

It does not invalidate the current White Tower or them referring to themselves as Aes Sedai.

It is a matter of context. The Forsaken obviously do not consider the current WT to contain their understanding of Aes Sedai.

But there are also many other changes. The binding rod for criminals is now the oath rod, along with many other such examples that Robert Jordan created.

 

That is part of the originality of Robert Jordan's writing. So many authors write their novels as if every character has access to all of the information in common.

Robert Jordan wrote a world and made it obvious that many of the characters were acting on their own set of information (or misinformation) without full knowledge.

 

It creates a world that is much more realistic in terms of our misunderstanding and acting with incomplete knowledge of the facts.

[randsc]

Taller, definately. Looks physically strong. And with very short hair. Maybe Kristen Bell, with a haricut.

[gambril]

You would make a good current third age 'Aes Sedai' imo. It's very convenient or perhaps disturbring that you ignore what Aes Sedai actually means. If I told you that building was the color white when it's actually the color green, are you going to believe me just because I said it was? You're doing the same thing here. These woman at the White Tower are not Aes Sedai (Servants of All). If you want to blindly believe they're Aes Sedai because they themselves think they are, then by all means continue to do so; just don't ask me to wear your blinders as well.

 

The mean of any word can change over time. I would say that in our own society that it happens in far less time than 3,000 years.

 

The meaning or definition or purpose of "Aes Sedai" does not have to stay constant between the AOL and the current RandLand.

It does not invalidate the current White Tower or them referring to themselves as Aes Sedai.

It is a matter of context. The Forsaken obviously do not consider the current WT to contain their understanding of Aes Sedai.

But there are also many other changes. The binding rod for criminals is now the oath rod, along with many other such examples that Robert Jordan created.

 

That is part of the originality of Robert Jordan's writing. So many authors write their novels as if every character has access to all of the information in common.

Robert Jordan wrote a world and made it obvious that many of the characters were acting on their own set of information (or misinformation) without full knowledge.

 

It creates a world that is much more realistic in terms of our misunderstanding and acting with incomplete knowledge of the facts.

I agree, it is a matter of context. You choose to ignore what Aes Sedai means and apply it to how you want to understand it. I'm doing the same thing. The meaning and definition of something in my understanding changes due to ignorance and/or lack of knowledge. What you are choosing to ignore though is that Aes Sedai do know what Aes Sedai means, they just choose to ignore what the word means and mold it to their own benefits, yes? So suddenly the word servant is erased from the Aes Sedai 'dictionary' and becomes the word manipulator and unquestioned Boss of All the peons in Randland.

 

And ultimately, I think your thoughts aren't relevant because we know what the word means, Aes Sedai know what the word means. They just choose to ignore it. You can't state that Aes Sedai actually ever believe they are serving people. They serve numeoro uno foremost and anything else that might get served in the process is an afterthought lol.

[James71]

I agree, it is a matter of context. You choose to ignore what Aes Sedai means and apply it to how you want to understand it. I'm doing the same thing. The meaning and definition of something in my understanding changes due to ignorance and/or lack of knowledge. What you are choosing to ignore though is that Aes Sedai do know what Aes Sedai means, they just choose to ignore what the word means and mold it to their own benefits, yes? So suddenly the word servant is erased from the Aes Sedai 'dictionary' and becomes the word manipulator and unquestioned Boss of All the peons in Randland.

 

And ultimately, I think your thoughts aren't relevant because we know what the word means, Aes Sedai know what the word means. They just choose to ignore it. You can't state that Aes Sedai actually ever believe they are serving people. They serve numeoro uno foremost and anything else that might get served in the process is an afterthought lol.

 

Gambril, I am not the orignal person that got into this debate with you. I did not write any of those things.

 

I am merely pointing out that the meaning of any word can change over time and that does not invalidate that the current members of the White Tower give themselves the title of Aes Sedai. Just like that Aiel also have adopted that title, despite how different they were during the AOL.

[Ala Rubra]

I agree, it is a matter of context. You choose to ignore what Aes Sedai means and apply it to how you want to understand it. I'm doing the same thing. The meaning and definition of something in my understanding changes due to ignorance and/or lack of knowledge. What you are choosing to ignore though is that Aes Sedai do know what Aes Sedai means, they just choose to ignore what the word means and mold it to their own benefits, yes? So suddenly the word servant is erased from the Aes Sedai 'dictionary' and becomes the word manipulator and unquestioned Boss of All the peons in Randland.

 

And ultimately, I think your thoughts aren't relevant because we know what the word means, Aes Sedai know what the word means. They just choose to ignore it. You can't state that Aes Sedai actually ever believe they are serving people. They serve numeoro uno foremost and anything else that might get served in the process is an afterthought lol.

 

Gambril, I am not the orignal person that got into this debate with you. I did not write any of those things.

 

I am merely pointing out that the meaning of any word can change over time and that does not invalidate that the current members of the White Tower give themselves the title of Aes Sedai. Just like that Aiel also have adopted that title, despite how different they were during the AOL.

 

As an in-ToM example of words changing over time, consider "gai'shain" in Avi's second trip through the Pillars.

[Mats Spare Hat]

Contextually speaking I think the point at which you see a shift in Aes Sedai corporate culture, so to speak, is the onset of the breaking at the end of the previous age.

 

You've gotta figure when all the male AS went crazy and pretty much destroyed the entire world in power-fueled rampages that what population you have left turned really sour, really quick towards anybody and all things Aes Sedai, male or female. One might also surmise that for a world that by all appearances had Aes Sedai standing as pillars of ideal society, servants of all, to have the AS go from being so celebrated to pond-scum has to bring about the same sour feelings amongst the AS, as normal folks surely had for them.

 

All the events that occur during the breaking, a population that no longer trusts what the AS stand for - leads to a change in what it means to be Aes Sedai. The three oaths are now sworn, under the pretense that a person would know that an AS can speak no word that is untrue, to not use the power to create weapons for which one man to kill another, or to use the power as a weapon except against shadowspawn/darkfriends, in the last defense of her or her warder's lifed or another sister.

 

People no longer trusted AS -hell, they barely do now- the world was shattered, what were once heroes were now vilified, and yet, Aes Sedai are an integral link to the power that drives the wheel. The world changed, what it once meant to be Aes Sedai was trashed, in a trashed world.

 

The Aes Sedai of present day are not the Aes Sedai as they once were, but they are Aes Sedai - as a result of a ruined world that would not tolerate the organization as it once was. They are the product of their experiences.

[bysomy]

Aes Sedai literally means servant of all. Modern Aes Sedai do not serve the world, they take care of their own desires and use the power to gain personal power. Nowhere do we see yellows actively healing people in cities, or greens fighting shadowspawn at the blightborder, or browns puting their knowledge to use(ie cleanse the taint seal the bore make ter'angreal), or whites solving problems that require higher thinking. Modern Aes Sedai are divided, they don't even share weaves together. They have sat in their tower for 3000 years doing nothing. This is not serving all. They have used their power to make other nations distrust them more instead of repairing the distrust produced by the breaking.

[Mats Spare Hat]

Aes Sedai literally means servant of all. Modern Aes Sedai do not serve the world, they take care of their own desires and use the power to gain personal power. Nowhere do we see yellows actively healing people in cities, or greens fighting shadowspawn at the blightborder, or browns puting their knowledge to use(ie cleanse the taint seal the bore make ter'angreal), or whites solving problems that require higher thinking. Modern Aes Sedai are divided, they don't even share weaves together. They have sat in their tower for 3000 years doing nothing. This is not serving all. They have used their power to make other nations distrust them more instead of repairing the distrust produced by the breaking.

 

 

And if I have a sword, and only use it exclusively to open cans of beans, it's still a sword.

[Kahlika]

You mean these White Tower pretend AS

 

You keep mentioning that. Time to back it up. Find a quote that says they're not Aes Sedai.

 

Rand says he was the only one properly raised by the standards of the AoL, he doesn't say he is the only Aes Sedai, he treats them as Aes Sedai and refers to them as Aes Sedai. By the existing rules, which are what counts, they are Aes Sedai.

 

You would make a good current third age 'Aes Sedai' imo. It's very convenient or perhaps disturbring that you ignore what Aes Sedai actually means. If I told you that building was the color white when it's actually the color green, are you going to believe me just because I said it was? You're doing the same thing here. These woman at the White Tower are not Aes Sedai (Servants of All). If you want to blindly believe they're Aes Sedai because they themselves think they are, then by all means continue to do so; just don't ask me to wear your blinders as well.

 

There's really no indication anywhere that they aren't Aes Sedai. They're clearly not what you think Aes Sedai should be, but that doesn't actually change the fact that they are Aes Sedai. Pretty much everyone in the books, new Rand included, recognise them as Aes Sedai, they are Aes Sedai. Nothing says you have to like them or approve of them.

 

And while you've for some reason jumped back a few weeks to pick out a quote of mine you seem to have ignored all the other discussion that went on around it.

 

This idealised conception of Aes Sedai you and some others seem to think of as being the 'real' Aes Sedai never existed, not even in the AoL.

 

Aes Sedai serve all in the sense that a public servant or an elected politician serves all now.

 

The AoL was a totally different society, with different goals, values and so on. Society was structured around helping others as a way to gain personal status and power. Even the majority of the Forsaken did so, all bar Mesaana, Moghedien and Balthamel have the honorific third name gained through community service. Yet we know they had crime amongst Aes Sedai (binding chairs and rods), we know that they had politics and pettiness (the events chronicled in A Strike at Shayol Ghul), we know they were arrogant via Rand's memories, and we even know that the most noted ascetic of the age despised everyone for not being able to live up to her standards, which in itself suggests everyone wasn't as clean and wonderful as people try project onto them. The AoL Aes Sedai have, in every instance we've seen them, been shown to be just as human as the TA Aes Sedai.

 

As people have already discussed in the thread the organisation has changed over time as it has adapted to circumstances, which is hardly surprising given the breaking. But the TA Aes Sedai are just as much Aes Sedai as the AoL Aes Sedai, even though neither of them would meet this ideal people seem to have constructed around an absolutely literal interpretation of the name. The AoL Aes Sedai are closer to the ideal, partly due to the nature of the society they existed in and partly due to the fact that we haven’t seen as much detail about them. But on close inspection of the evidence we do have of the AoL there is no reason to think they were any better or worse than the TA Aes Sedai, just different due to the circumstances.

 

Did the AoL Aes Sedai get more done? Absolutely. But again we have to look at the differences in the socieites. RJ described Aginor as a "chip designer dropped into the seventeenth century" when someone asked why he hadn't created more shadowspawn etc once he was released from the bore. He would have had to actually start from the bottom, with just creating simple things like the basic science. The AoL Aes Sedai had access to that science, to the facilities etc that they needed to do what they did. Expecting the TA Aes Sedai to do the same without the resources (which they don't have due pretty directly to the AoL Aes Sedai helpfully serving everyone by drilling the Bore and then breaking the world), is just silly.

 

There was an excellent quote from Robert Jordan posted in one of the threads where this was discussed earlier. It was something about how the AoL was a utopia compared to the TA (I believe it drew the analogy of our society seeming a utopia if viewed by someone from hundreds of years ago), but that didn't mean it was actually a perfect society. If anyone knows where I can find that I'd appreciate the link.

[bysomy]

And if I have a sword, and only use it exclusively to open cans of beans, it's still a sword

Bad analogy. More like if a Fish produces milk, gives birth to live offspring, is warm blooded, is furry, lives on land, and breathes air is it still a fish?

[garion]

Aes Sedai literally means servant of all. Modern Aes Sedai do not serve the world, they take care of their own desires and use the power to gain personal power. Nowhere do we see yellows actively healing people in cities, or greens fighting shadowspawn at the blightborder, or browns puting their knowledge to use(ie cleanse the taint seal the bore make ter'angreal), or whites solving problems that require higher thinking. Modern Aes Sedai are divided, they don't even share weaves together. They have sat in their tower for 3000 years doing nothing. This is not serving all. They have used their power to make other nations distrust them more instead of repairing the distrust produced by the breaking.

 

 

And if I have a sword, and only use it exclusively to open cans of beans, it's still a sword.

 

Yeah except the sword is not being used for is purpose and has been changed and is just a really fancy can opener. Or you can say that if all swords were not being used for their original purpose and directed to the same new purpose that the definition of a sword can be changed to match its current state. SO Aes Sedai can still be Aes Sedai since the entire organization has changed to the same direction of being manipulative idiots.

[draconian]

Aes Sedai literally means servant of all. Modern Aes Sedai do not serve the world, they take care of their own desires and use the power to gain personal power. Nowhere do we see yellows actively healing people in cities, or greens fighting shadowspawn at the blightborder, or browns puting their knowledge to use(ie cleanse the taint seal the bore make ter'angreal), or whites solving problems that require higher thinking. Modern Aes Sedai are divided, they don't even share weaves together. They have sat in their tower for 3000 years doing nothing. This is not serving all. They have used their power to make other nations distrust them more instead of repairing the distrust produced by the breaking.

 

 

And if I have a sword, and only use it exclusively to open cans of beans, it's still a sword.

ah but then it isnt a sword of/for justice b/c is just a sword used to open cans. comparing aes sedai to swords is wrong on too many levels though.

 

aes sedai are likely like the ashaman and had there name granted to them by a past dragon(1st age). the dragon as he is now is the model of of both a guardian of justice and light and a servant of the wheel and the life.

 

aes sedai translates servants of all and thats well known but how did it change in meaning i think the "all" went from ppl and society to the wheel and the pattern. in the 2nd age there was no need to serve the pattern and the wheel b/c the DO was well sealed. yet most they still do and have done a terrible job of serving the pattern and the wheel.

[Mats Spare Hat]

Aes Sedai literally means servant of all. Modern Aes Sedai do not serve the world, they take care of their own desires and use the power to gain personal power. Nowhere do we see yellows actively healing people in cities, or greens fighting shadowspawn at the blightborder, or browns puting their knowledge to use(ie cleanse the taint seal the bore make ter'angreal), or whites solving problems that require higher thinking. Modern Aes Sedai are divided, they don't even share weaves together. They have sat in their tower for 3000 years doing nothing. This is not serving all. They have used their power to make other nations distrust them more instead of repairing the distrust produced by the breaking.

 

 

And if I have a sword, and only use it exclusively to open cans of beans, it's still a sword.

ah but then it isnt a sword of/for justice b/c is just a sword used to open cans. comparing aes sedai to swords is wrong on too many levels though.

 

aes sedai are likely like the ashaman and had there name granted to them by a past dragon(1st age). the dragon as he is now is the model of of both a guardian of justice and light and a servant of the wheel and the life.

 

aes sedai translates servants of all and thats well known but how did it change in meaning i think the "all" went from ppl and society to the wheel and the pattern. in the 2nd age there was no need to serve the pattern and the wheel b/c the DO was well sealed. yet most they still do and have done a terrible job of serving the pattern and the wheel.

 

 

Nah dude, you and the other dude are reading way too far into the whole can-opener sword thing. I just said it to say it, and ya'll, not so much you, went all OOUU WAHHHH HE'S COMPARING AN INANIMATE SWORD SHAPED OBJECT USED FOR OPENING CANS TO AES SEDAI! UGH OMG! LIKE, WRONG!

 

...Reading too much into a blithe sword/not a sword comment, getting panties in bunches over people being Aes Sedai now vs Aes Sedai then. Wah wee wah wah wee wah wah...hark, is that the wah-mbulance? *pops can of beans with sword

[draconian]

Aes Sedai literally means servant of all. Modern Aes Sedai do not serve the world, they take care of their own desires and use the power to gain personal power. Nowhere do we see yellows actively healing people in cities, or greens fighting shadowspawn at the blightborder, or browns puting their knowledge to use(ie cleanse the taint seal the bore make ter'angreal), or whites solving problems that require higher thinking. Modern Aes Sedai are divided, they don't even share weaves together. They have sat in their tower for 3000 years doing nothing. This is not serving all. They have used their power to make other nations distrust them more instead of repairing the distrust produced by the breaking.

 

 

And if I have a sword, and only use it exclusively to open cans of beans, it's still a sword.

ah but then it isnt a sword of/for justice b/c is just a sword used to open cans. comparing aes sedai to swords is wrong on too many levels though.

 

aes sedai are likely like the ashaman and had there name granted to them by a past dragon(1st age). the dragon as he is now is the model of of both a guardian of justice and light and a servant of the wheel and the life.

 

aes sedai translates servants of all and thats well known but how did it change in meaning i think the "all" went from ppl and society to the wheel and the pattern. in the 2nd age there was no need to serve the pattern and the wheel b/c the DO was well sealed. yet most they still do and have done a terrible job of serving the pattern and the wheel.

 

 

Nah dude, you and the other dude are reading way too far into the whole can-opener sword thing. I just said it to say it, and ya'll, not so much you, went all OOUU WAHHHH HE'S COMPARING AN INANIMATE SWORD SHAPED OBJECT USED FOR OPENING CANS TO AES SEDAI! UGH OMG! LIKE, WRONG!

 

...Reading too much into a blithe sword/not a sword comment, getting panties in bunches over people being Aes Sedai now vs Aes Sedai then. Wah wee wah wah wee wah wah...hark, is that the wah-mbulance? *pops can of beans with sword

i thought it was a terrible comparison b/c aes sedai r terrible battle channallers. i think a butter knife would of been better.

[RedVanilla]

I thought the comparison was a hoot!

 

The Aes Sedai are supposed to be servants of all, but they do it in their own way, which is not always necessarily best. So far, Nyneave is the best Aes Sedai I've seen, and I'm hoping that all of them start acting a bit more like her and a bit less manipulative.