Discuss Rand

[didymos]

When Rand is in the White Tower he's shielded by the Aes Sedai (double shielded by two full circles, really). They'd have noticed if he was trying to, or already touching the TS.

 

-- dwn

 

Yeah, but since we hear nothing from them and ta'veren power was locking all lips but Egwene's....so what?

[dwn]

When Rand is in the White Tower he's shielded by the Aes Sedai (double shielded by two full circles, really). They'd have noticed if he was trying to, or already touching the TS.

 

-- dwn

 

Yeah, but since we hear nothing from them and ta'veren power was locking all lips but Egwene's....so what?

 

Egwene sees that they have shielded him. They would not be able to get the shield in place if he was touching the source.

 

-- dwn

[WhiskyJack]

When Rand is in the White Tower he's shielded by the Aes Sedai (double shielded by two full circles, really). They'd have noticed if he was trying to, or already touching the TS.

 

-- dwn

 

Yeah, but since we hear nothing from them and ta'veren power was locking all lips but Egwene's....so what?

 

Egwene sees that they have shielded him. They would not be able to get the shield in place if he was touching the source.

 

-- dwn

 

13 weakest channelers in a link can overpower the strongest male channeler even if that person is holding the source..WOT-101..

[f3llyn]

When Rand is in the White Tower he's shielded by the Aes Sedai (double shielded by two full circles, really). They'd have noticed if he was trying to, or already touching the TS.

 

-- dwn

 

Yeah, but since we hear nothing from them and ta'veren power was locking all lips but Egwene's....so what?

 

Egwene sees that they have shielded him. They would not be able to get the shield in place if he was touching the source.

 

-- dwn

 

13 weakest channelers in a link can overpower the strongest male channeler even if that person is holding the source..WOT-101..

Yes, but Rand's newfound enlightenment is a game changer. We don't know if they would work against him anymore. Certainly not when you take into consideration his taverin fu.

[WhiskyJack]

When Rand is in the White Tower he's shielded by the Aes Sedai (double shielded by two full circles, really). They'd have noticed if he was trying to, or already touching the TS.

 

-- dwn

 

Yeah, but since we hear nothing from them and ta'veren power was locking all lips but Egwene's....so what?

 

Egwene sees that they have shielded him. They would not be able to get the shield in place if he was touching the source.

 

-- dwn

 

13 weakest channelers in a link can overpower the strongest male channeler even if that person is holding the source..WOT-101..

Yes, but Rand's newfound enlightenment is a game changer. We don't know if they would work against him anymore. Certainly not when you take into consideration his taverin fu.

 

I guess it's something up for debate. It must be something new coz LTT never had this..

[Elend]

When Rand is in the White Tower he's shielded by the Aes Sedai (double shielded by two full circles, really). They'd have noticed if he was trying to, or already touching the TS.

 

-- dwn

 

Yeah, but since we hear nothing from them and ta'veren power was locking all lips but Egwene's....so what?

 

Egwene sees that they have shielded him. They would not be able to get the shield in place if he was touching the source.

 

-- dwn

 

13 weakest channelers in a link can overpower the strongest male channeler even if that person is holding the source..WOT-101..

Yes, but Rand's newfound enlightenment is a game changer. We don't know if they would work against him anymore. Certainly not when you take into consideration his taverin fu.

 

I guess it's something up for debate. It must be something new coz LTT never had this..

 

We should also consider the "something strange" in Aviendha's kids and what that apparently is in them. Its possible something happened while Rand held so much power so often from the CK, allowing him to always have a link to the Source, even while shielded. Under this its possible that the Aes Sedai didn't even know Rand wasn't shielded. Think of it as going around a wall instead of through it... the people who built and doing maintenance on the wall won't know it failed.

[dwn]

When Rand is in the White Tower he's shielded by the Aes Sedai (double shielded by two full circles, really). They'd have noticed if he was trying to, or already touching the TS.

 

-- dwn

 

Yeah, but since we hear nothing from them and ta'veren power was locking all lips but Egwene's....so what?

 

Egwene sees that they have shielded him. They would not be able to get the shield in place if he was touching the source.

 

-- dwn

 

13 weakest channelers in a link can overpower the strongest male channeler even if that person is holding the source..WOT-101..

Yes, but Rand's newfound enlightenment is a game changer. We don't know if they would work against him anymore. Certainly not when you take into consideration his taverin fu.

 

I guess it's something up for debate. It must be something new coz LTT never had this..

 

To clarify: Rand is not permanently connected to saidin because the Aes Sedai were able to shield him, and would have noticed if they couldn't. Perhaps he could have broken the shield due to some new Dragon Power thing, or perhaps his ta'veren effect would induce a fit of giggles in any Aes Sedai trying to hold the shield.

 

So far we don't have any evidence showing that Rand is more powerful than he previously was. In 'A Storm of Light', Naeff is shocked by the number and complexity of weaves--for which Rand even displayed a knack in TSR--rather than the amount of power being wielded. Eldrene of Manetheren was able to destroy an army of trollocs on her own (though she died as a result), so the feat isn't entirely unprecedented.

 

-- dwn

[Zentari]

So far we don't have any evidence showing that Rand is more powerful than he previously was. In 'A Storm of Light', Naeff is shocked by the number and complexity of weaves--for which Rand even displayed a knack in TSR--rather than the amount of power being wielded. Eldrene of Manetheren was able to destroy an army of trollocs on her own (though she died as a result), so the feat isn't entirely unprecedented.

 

-- dwn

Your first point is good ,the second however is bogus.Eldrene burned herself AND the city in her anger/despair , Rand did not create a second mountain this time so it is safe to assume that he is stronger than her.

[dwn]

So far we don't have any evidence showing that Rand is more powerful than he previously was. In 'A Storm of Light', Naeff is shocked by the number and complexity of weaves--for which Rand even displayed a knack in TSR--rather than the amount of power being wielded. Eldrene of Manetheren was able to destroy an army of trollocs on her own (though she died as a result), so the feat isn't entirely unprecedented.

 

-- dwn

Your first point is good ,the second however is bogus.Eldrene burned herself AND the city in her anger/despair , Rand did not create a second mountain this time so it is safe to assume that he is stronger than her.

 

Eldrene is, however, another instance of a lone channeller destroying an army. So while 'A Storm of Light' is impressive, it's not sufficient to prove that Rand has some new, undefined ability with channelling. The New Rand is more strength of enlightenment than strength of force. A supernatural channelling ability would actually cheapen his epiphany.

 

-- dwn

[Zentari]

So far we don't have any evidence showing that Rand is more powerful than he previously was. In 'A Storm of Light', Naeff is shocked by the number and complexity of weaves--for which Rand even displayed a knack in TSR--rather than the amount of power being wielded. Eldrene of Manetheren was able to destroy an army of trollocs on her own (though she died as a result), so the feat isn't entirely unprecedented.

 

-- dwn

Your first point is good ,the second however is bogus.Eldrene burned herself AND the city in her anger/despair , Rand did not create a second mountain this time so it is safe to assume that he is stronger than her.

 

Eldrene is, however, another instance of a lone channeller destroying an army. So while 'A Storm of Light' is impressive, it's not sufficient to prove that Rand has some new, undefined ability with channelling. The New Rand is more strength of enlightenment than strength of force. A supernatural channelling ability would actually cheapen his epiphany.

 

-- dwn

I agree with you about the channeling.Your example was however miss-matched .

Also, a new supernatural ability would not cheapen his epiphany in my opinion.

[Guest Ishu161]

I did find one thing corious though. He told Tenobia that the guardian in Far Madding blocks the One Power only...the way he spoke implied that he was willing to use the True power. Why would he, after knowing that it comes from the Dark One and the harmful affects that come with its use??

 

Exactly this is very strange. I'm guessing that if he ever did use it, it would be in an absolute last resort kinda scenario, but the thing that confuses me is why would Shai'tan allow Rand to channel his essence after his transformation, which it's been implied he is aware of. Perhaps he is still hoping that maybe Rand will use it once or twice and just love it way too much and start channeling it all the time and then be corrupted by it's evil glory.

 

When he said that the Guardian blocks only the One Power is right after he tells them how lucky they are they didn't pull the slap trick before his epiphany. He's talking about what he would have done before Rand 2.0. As to why the DO would still allow him access to it... I've said before, as have others, that I think his access to the TP is a result of his link to Moridin and to deny it to him the DO would also have to take it away from his Nae'blis as well. My biggest question is why he doesn't suffer the ill effects of the link from before (dizziness, nausea).

 

 

His point was that if he'd shown up sans epiphany, they wouldn't have gotten their chance to kill him to try and survive the LB without the Dragon, because he'd have just wasted them with the True Power. He wasn't saying he would ever use it now. He was saying that Dark Rand would have, and that they were damn lucky he'd delayed their little get-together.

 

They were quite luck weren't they. Still not convinced the prophecy was reason enough for them to abandon everything and go in search of him. And Ethenielle didn't even have that excuse. The whole thing was a big let-down.

 

Anyways,back on topic. This does explains it quiet a bit...but I'm still suspicious. We can pretty much be sure that the TP use comes from his link to Moridin. I'm thinking along the lines that it may all come down to Rand containing as much of the DO's true power inside him as he can....doing this, he destroys himself, but also burns out the source or something. Poor theory, I know, but that's all I can think of if it comes down to Rand vs DO.

 

Also, the reason he's no longer having any sickness from channeling could be related to what Nyneave saw when she delved him after that Asha'man from sickness. She saw a lot of corruption from the taint in his mind. But underneath it all, there was pure light. We can attribute this to be a meta-physical form of the change he goes through at Dragonmount. We see in Perrin's wolf dream that he is surrounded by shadow and after he has his epiphany, the storm stops and clouds break open. Thats my best guess, because I don't think its plausible for him to have a new strange,unheard of power this late in the game.

[doomsgate]

iirc eldrene only destroyed the dreadlords not the entire army

[dwn]

iirc eldrene only destroyed the dreadlords not the entire army

 

Actually, this is correct according to Moiraine's rendition of the story in TEotW, and is corroborated by the account in the Guide. I was wrong on Eldrene destroying the whole army; she apparently targeted the Dreadlords, Myrddraal and Darkfriends leading the army.

 

-- dwn

[NetSlider]

I"ve always thought that the pattern had to have some sort of "safety nets" so it will not be destroyed via CK style things. I've always thought that Rand's sickness was nothing else but the safety guard to prevent him from balefiring the whole damn pattern. This prophecy about killing DR for the sake of humanity only reinforces that opinion in me.

[Sharaman]

My take was that a large part of Rand's problem was his fear that LTT would seize control and a war within himself when he grabbed saidin.

That's gone.

[Hopefire]

iirc eldrene only destroyed the dreadlords not the entire army

 

Actually, this is correct according to Moiraine's rendition of the story in TEotW, and is corroborated by the account in the Guide. I was wrong on Eldrene destroying the whole army; she apparently targeted the Dreadlords, Myrddraal and Darkfriends leading the army.

 

-- dwn

I also think that given the information we have about the event, we can't rule out that a ter'angreal or sa'angreal was involved in her attack. The extent of the effect - killing people dozens of miles away with some degree of precision - seems unlikely for any channeler, much less an unaided female channeler. Do you think that Lanfear or Nynaeve would be capable of it? Or even Rand, even as he is now?

 

It just seems unlikely to me that she was unaided.

[babuada]

Rand may also have a peralis-net. If he draws power via an well he does not get seek. Look at the battle in TEoTW.

[babuada]

Look at this dream from Egwin.

 

ACOS (Ch10)

She stood before an immense wall, clawing at it, trying to tear it down with her bare hands. It was not made of brick or stone, but countless thousands of discs, each half white and half black, the ancient symbol of the Aes Sedai, like the seven seals that had once held the DO's prison shut...the wall stood strong however she beat at it. She could not tear it down. Maybe it was the symbol that was important. Maybe it was the AS she was trying to tear down, the White Tower. Maybe....

 

Now look at this.

The unstained tower breaks and bends knee to the forgotten sign. The seas rage, and stormclouds gather unseen. Beyond the horizon, hidden fires swell, and serpents nestle in the bosom. What was exalted is cast down; what was cast down is raised up. Order burns to clear his path.

 

And the Jendai Profecy.

The White Tower shall be broken by his name, and Aes Sedai shall kneel to wash his feet and dry them with their hair.

 

My speculation is in Fields of Merilor Rand is going to teach them to be truely AS, i.e, servant of all.

[babuada]

Another speculation.

Fields of Merilor is where Paasan Diren was. Especially the hall of servants. Rand is going to show them what Light is and he is the only wielder of it.

Refer TEoTW. IMO Light is the essence of True Source. And only Rand can handle it without getting burned. AS already take oath to follow Light and therefore already bound to him (as he is the only representative of Light).

[johthohar]

iirc eldrene only destroyed the dreadlords not the entire army

 

Actually, this is correct according to Moiraine's rendition of the story in TEotW, and is corroborated by the account in the Guide. I was wrong on Eldrene destroying the whole army; she apparently targeted the Dreadlords, Myrddraal and Darkfriends leading the army.

 

-- dwn

Okay... WoT rookie here... If I am reading this right you are admitting that Rand pwning a hundred thousand strong shadowspawn army is unprecedented? To be clear... I am NOT trying to force my opinion here... But it would be cool of the huge hole you punched in my theory was erased.

[Guest Ishu161]

Another speculation.

Fields of Merilor is where Paasan Diren was. Especially the hall of servants. Rand is going to show them what Light is and he is the only wielder of it.

Refer TEoTW. IMO Light is the essence of True Source. And only Rand can handle it without getting burned. AS already take oath to follow Light and therefore already bound to him (as he is the only representative of Light).

 

I really like the idea that Paaran Disen stood at the place which is now known as the Fields of Mellinor. Not sure about the whole 'show them what Light is' thing, but this could lead to some interesting scenes early on in AMoL. even if it doesn't, I'd still like the place to be of a certain significance.

[dwn]

iirc eldrene only destroyed the dreadlords not the entire army

 

Actually, this is correct according to Moiraine's rendition of the story in TEotW, and is corroborated by the account in the Guide. I was wrong on Eldrene destroying the whole army; she apparently targeted the Dreadlords, Myrddraal and Darkfriends leading the army.

 

-- dwn

Okay... WoT rookie here... If I am reading this right you are admitting that Rand pwning a hundred thousand strong shadowspawn army is unprecedented? To be clear... I am NOT trying to force my opinion here... But it would be cool of the huge hole you punched in my theory was erased.

 

I wouldn't go that far. Rand himself destroys a large part of a shadowspawn army (hundreds of fades, implying tens of thousands of trollocs) in TEotW, and he was just beginning to channel there. 'A Storm of Light' was impressive but doesn't require that Rand have some newfound power. My recall of Eldrene's story, however, was incorrect; while her channelling feat was off the charts (assuming the story is accurate), she did not personally incinerate a trolloc army.

 

-- dwn

[f3llyn]

She just scattered their armies if I remember correctly, not destroying them completely like Rand did.

 

Anyways, I'm not certain if Rand gained a new power or not other than the efficiency he will have gained from having Lews Therins memories in his head. But on the flip side to that coin, Rand could still be gaining strength in the one power. I mean he hasn't really been channeling for all that long, about 2 years give or take a few months? It's said several times that it takes women at least 5 or 6 years to gain their full potential while they steadily grow in strength over that time. Where men grow in great leaps in power at a time, but I've never read anything that says how long it takes men to reach their full potential.

 

I think the part where Aviendha's sees through her daughters eyes in the columns gives us a clue about this. Her daughter Padra mentions the difference between how efficient and effortless they channel compared to the seanchan. She basically says the difference is like night and day, and that could be all that we're saw there.

 

Though, I don't think the light that blinded Bashere's cousin (don't remember his name) and his wife had anything to do with his channeling abilities.

[johthohar]

iirc eldrene only destroyed the dreadlords not the entire army

 

Actually, this is correct according to Moiraine's rendition of the story in TEotW, and is corroborated by the account in the Guide. I was wrong on Eldrene destroying the whole army; she apparently targeted the Dreadlords, Myrddraal and Darkfriends leading the army.

 

-- dwn

Okay... WoT rookie here... If I am reading this right you are admitting that Rand pwning a hundred thousand strong shadowspawn army is unprecedented? To be clear... I am NOT trying to force my opinion here... But it would be cool of the huge hole you punched in my theory was erased.

 

I wouldn't go that far. Rand himself destroys a large part of a shadowspawn army (hundreds of fades, implying tens of thousands of trollocs) in TEotW, and he was just beginning to channel there. 'A Storm of Light' was impressive but doesn't require that Rand have some newfound power. My recall of Eldrene's story, however, was incorrect; while her channelling feat was off the charts (assuming the story is accurate), she did not personally incinerate a trolloc army.

 

-- dwn

 

If I am remembering correctly he was in a kind of dazed, dreamlike state at that point drawing on the untainted pool at the eye and I believe he destroyed most of the initial charge... Enough to turn the tide of the battle in favor of the Shienaran army. It's been over a year since I read tEotW though. Is there a clear estimate anywhere of how many shadow spawn he killed there?

[Fable]

I felt like I had a better perspective of Rand's ordeal on Dragonmount in this book. Even though the struggle was almost totally internal at the end of TGS it wasn't until I saw things from the Wolves' perspective that I had a sense that the DO was on the verge of truly winning, as Rand wasn't so much in danger of turning to serve the DO as he was in danger of Balefiring the whole dang planet, effectively unweaving the pattern.

 

I also think at this point Rand simply is the Creator's Champion. It's not so much that he's outside the pattern as he has the ability to bend it to his will (and is doing so more subtly than in TGS). Rand had to transcend humanity in some way, as would anyone in his position. For the last two years he's lived his life focused around one truth: only you can save the world, and the world will dispise you for it.

 

I'm of the opinion that as the Dragon he serves a specific purpose for the forces of light, and it's not simply that he battles the DO on their behalf... it's that he drives humanity to fight for itself. He prepares the world for the battle. That way, even if he simply turns to the DO it doesn't simply result in the DO winning because humanity may be driven to fight for itself because the Dragon turns.