Cyndane

[Guest Emu on the Loose]

I have a couple of observations to make:

 

My first observation is that we don't actually have a good indication of the evil that Lanfear wrought. We know she swore to the Shadow. We are told she invaded people's dreams during the Age of Legends. And we know she went crazy on that day at the docks. None of these is a clear proof of her supposedly evil nature, in that each of them can be plausibly explained in other ways.

 

There is nothing else about her that suggests an evil person. In fact, RJ went out of his way to imply the opposite. Unlike the other Forsaken, Lanfear never seemed to revel in her license to be cruel and malevolent. She told Rand that she does not utilize some of the Shadow's worser abominations, like the Soulless, and she also told him that she never kills or even harms without cause.

 

There's a lot of “according to Lanfear” in WoT. She seems to be one of the more reliable sources of rare information, and I think that's because her ambitions are so naked that we tend to take what she says at face value. Others may know better, but I can't recall Lanfear ever lying about something important, other than her reaffirmation to Ishamael that she serves the DO (and no other—which was true!).

 

But RJ also wrote, in his letter to a fan back in the 1990s, that Lanfear would never be motivated in her actions by pure intentions. And she doesn't seem to be interested in the welfare of anyone but herself and Rand. She doesn't seem like a good character, to be sure, but I just don't see her as evil. That's my first observation.

 

My second observation is that we never heard the sane Lews Therin. The real Lews Therin in the prologue of the series was first completely insane, and then, after being healed by Ishamael, overwrought with grief. The Lews Therin in Rand's mind was undoubtedly completely insane for his entire presence in the series. We've never gotten a point of view from a sane Lews Therin Telamon.

 

This might be very important when we consider his reaction to Mierin. I keep going back to that remorse of his in “On Dragonmount,” when he thinks to himself that he had been foolish enough to try and match the Creator in mending what man had broken. Matching the Creator sounds a lot like Lanfear talk; in fact no one else in the whole series talks like that.

 

His first appearance as a voice in Rand's head is when Lanfear is present. And his reaction is one of disgust, not that Mierin turned bad but that Mierin is Mierin: ambitious, proud, powerful. Meanwhile, Lanfear herself is having one of her most heart-wrenching moments in the whole series, hands clenched on her stomach in shock, confessing to Rand that she loves him and has always loved him, and pleading with him to accept it.

 

If you ask me, Lews Therin's opinion of Mierin is an act of self-loathing. Remember, we've never heard from sane Lews Therin. I think she reminds him of himself, and Lews Therin hates himself because of what he did to his family, and how he failed to save the world without such a terrible cost. From his point of view, ambition and power lead to the destruction which ultimately befell him. Mierin is too similar a reminder of his own failure, and perhaps of her failure too—her descent into Lanfear.

 

That's my second observation: I think Lews Therin has failed to appreciate Lanfear's sincerity in her love for him.

 

I'm beginning to wonder if “Lanfear” is the result of somebody who was made victim to the 13x13 trick, or suffered some other form of duress which compelled Mierin to become Lanfear. We were never told how she survived the explosion of the Sharom.

 

These two observations, together, suggest that Lanfear's appearance in Rand's dream at the end of ToM is the beginning of the end of her service to the Shadow. She's going to reject the DO in a big way, and I think AMoL will hinge upon the consequences of that.

 

Will she reject the Shadow in favor of the Light? I doubt it, but it's certainly possible. That could turn out interestingly. Also possible is that she will be afforded the chance to redeem herself by sacrificing herself in the bid to defeat the DO. That would be awfully trite, and almost as bad as if she were to suffer the kind of death and defeat that most of the other Forsaken have. But it's very possible.

 

Less possible, but most preferred: I would much like to see Rand and Mierin surviving the Last Battle and passing out of Randland to live together in peace beyond the reach of mundane interests. They both deserve it. Everybody knows why Rand deserves it, but most people haven't thought about why Mierin deserves it: Unless you buy the premise that she is totally and irredeemably evil, she has walked a longer, harder, and lonelier road than anyone—even the Dragon.

[MoonBeams]

I have to say up until now i havent thought Lanfear to be loyal to the DO, She even wants to usurp both him and the creator with Rand at her side.

 

 

 

I too do not believe for a moment that Cyndane/Lanfear is totally loyal to the DO, we've seen in the past books that she has shown contempt and wanted to overthrow the Do and rule. She is angry at Rand for not reciprocating her feelings so she is the perfect person to set him up. When Shaidar Haran came to punish Graendael and she said she had some plot against Rand, Shaidar said that that was given to someone else to handle.....Cyndane.

[Durinax]

what interests me is that she does not see herself as lanfear at all

 

"it was a woman with silvery hair, wearing a thin white shift."

 

In the dream you picture yourself however you want. In all books previous she has been unwavering in how she presented herself in the dream.

 

and even though she is desparate for rand to help her, she does not say her name nor take her old form so he may recognize her and sympathize.

 

Yet I think this is not a trap set up by cyndane but rather by SH or the DO himself

 

"instead, he felt hatred, concern, and --- like a seething viper within him --- desire."

 

I think those are directed at the shadow not at Mierin. the reason I think this is that I think it is very reasonable to assume that a person walking in the light would feel such emotions when in the presence of the Shadow. I think the hatred is obvious. But the concern and desire both stem from what he wants to do, concern that his plan may fail again but this time dooming man for all time likely, and desire to finish teh fight.

 

The only reason Mierin was used is because she has a more intimate connection to LTT and was a person in total control at all times (well of her emotions and such) that LTT seeing her soul in such a distraught way would unnerve him and it did since he couldnt achieve his inner calmness, whether that effect lingers I really want to know

[Sharaman]

She lies a lot. To Rand and the other Forsaken as well.

She get a sadistic charge out of hassling Asmo in his dreams after she's bound him.

She skins a DF who's giving her info in TFOh because she doesn't like the info.

She frames another DF in TSR and exposes her to a death sentence because she doesn't like the woman and is jealous of her.

She slices up a DF n WH simply because she happens to be talking to him when the cleansing starts and she can't be bothered.

Of course those killings have ample cause and are completely justified.

It doesn't matter.

All can be forgiven because she's hot and she was indeed prepared to dump GLoD if she could have gotten away with it.

[Caedn of the Taardad]

Something that stuck out to me was that Moiraine's strength in the power was reduced by the finns feeding on her...

If this means the finns have the ability the reduce someone's strength in the power, perhaps they have the ability to increase it as well? Perhaps that explains why Lanfear/cyndane thought no one could possibly be stronger than she once had been?

 

 

Because Lanfear was as strong as any woman could be without the aid of an angreal or sa'angreal.

Well Alivia show her How wrong she was

 

 

?? Cyndane was weaker than Lanfear and Alivia had an amgreal. And yet, Cyndane managed to fry one of Alivia's arms.

 

Cyndane was, if memory serves, using inverted weaves. So Alivia was much stronger, and had Cadsuane's anti-weave ter'angreal, but couldn't see what Cyndane was throwing at her. Cyndane was weaker, but able to counter all Alivia's weaves with no resistance, since Alivia couldn't see her counter-attacks.

 

May you find Water and Shade.

[Duskfire]

There is nothing else about her that suggests an evil person. In fact, RJ went out of his way to imply the opposite. Unlike the other Forsaken, Lanfear never seemed to revel in her license to be cruel and malevolent. She told Rand that she does not utilize some of the Shadow's worser abominations, like the Soulless, and she also told him that she never kills or even harms without cause.

 

She is lying her ass about that last comment. She has killed heaps of people just because she is in a bad mood. She is definetly an evil person, and I am staggered that people think otherwise. Her disregard for human life is just sickening. Your right, she doesn't revel in cruelty or maliciousness. She just kills people with an uncaring nature. Thats worst. Just because she doesnt worship the Dark One doesn't mean that she isnt an evil person. Her unhealthy obsession with lews Therin meant that she was prepared to kill a whole heap of people because Rand slept with Aviendah. Look what happened at the docks; a whole bunch of people died because she was jealous and pissed off. Yeah, shes a sweetheart.

[Bob T Dwarf]

There is nothing else about her that suggests an evil person. In fact, RJ went out of his way to imply the opposite. Unlike the other Forsaken, Lanfear never seemed to revel in her license to be cruel and malevolent. She told Rand that she does not utilize some of the Shadow's worser abominations, like the Soulless, and she also told him that she never kills or even harms without cause.

 

She is lying her ass about that last comment. She has killed heaps of people just because she is in a bad mood. She is definetly an evil person, and I am staggered that people think otherwise. Her disregard for human life is just sickening. Your right, she doesn't revel in cruelty or maliciousness. She just kills people with an uncaring nature. Thats worst. Just because she doesnt worship the Dark One doesn't mean that she isnt an evil person. Her unhealthy obsession with lews Therin meant that she was prepared to kill a whole heap of people because Rand slept with Aviendah. Look what happened at the docks; a whole bunch of people died because she was jealous and pissed off. Yeah, shes a sweetheart.

 

Yes, but unlike the other women in this series, you always know where Mieren is coming from. She's predictable. It's easier to work with a predictable enemy than it is with an unpredictable ally.

 

Which is not to say that I think Rand should trust her or save her. If he believes she's in a bad way, he should just kill her, quick and clean. Well, come to think of it, he should just kill her, period.

[AutomatedTeller]

Honestly, the idea that RJ went out of his way to imply that Lanfear isn't evil is just a complete misreading of the books.

 

She SKINS Kadere, just out of rage because he told her that he thought Rand was with Aviendha. He's a DF, so who cares, but still.

 

I don't know that she's lying about that last statement, actually. It's just that her definition of cause is "anything that I don't like", as opposed to some of the other forsaken, whose definition of cause is "because i feel like it"

[Random Man]

I'm thinking that in the case of Lanfear, perhaps we should be prepared to separate "evil" from "dedicated to the Shadow's cause."

 

Lanfear's shown to be very selfish and her conscience ends at what gets her what she wants. She has no qualms with doing bad things to get what she wants. She turned to the Shadow because it held the promise of fulfilling ambitions that she could not obtain otherwise. Based on comments she's made in the past, though, she's also clearly not a True Believer.

 

The POV we saw in the epilogue could very easily just be her feeling sorry for herself. I have no doubt she's been punished severely by the DO -- the name Cyndane means "Last Chance." It's clear that she's considered to have failed the DO and has likely seen punishment as Moghedien did. A selfish person would feel sorry for herself in this situation and would leap at the chance to get out of the situation she's in. If Rand manages to succeed, could she possibly be free of the hole she's dug for herself? Death and the chance to be reborn would certainly be better than an eternity of punishment.

 

Rand should tread very, very carefully. He should not trust anything Lanfear says on the surface, as anything she says or does is only for her own benefit, and it's not clear whether she'd take a gamble at betrayal or would try to redeem herself in the eyes of the DO. It could go either way -- I'm not prepared to call it a trap yet. Or if it is a trap engineered by Moridin or another, she could be playing her own game at the same time.

[waffle]

Did i miss a big screwup by Cyndene that brought about this "grinds my bones" business? Or did it just come out of the blue.

[Random Man]

Did i miss a big screwup by Cyndene that brought about this "grinds my bones" business? Or did it just come out of the blue.

 

The name Cyndane means "Last Chance" in the Old Tongue. Revealed when we first saw Cyndane in tPoD, IIRC. So likely Lanfear is being punished for some great failing. Since she was largely a failure as Lanfear -- she did nothing to further the Shadow's plans and actually helped Rand incidentally -- it's not surprising she's been mindtraped and is being punished.

 

Edited for a misplaced word.

[waffle]

So grinding her bones is not a punishment for a new screwup but the same one she got mindtrapped for?

[didymos]

So grinding her bones is not a punishment for a new screwup but the same one she got mindtrapped for?

 

Why assume she's even telling the truth about that?

[mbuehner]

A few things I have been thinking about:

 

- The Finns said they killed Lanfear by draining her too fast... that doesn't necessarily mean that they drained her all the way, or even 'a lot', like Moiraine obviously was. It could be like losing blood- if you lose a lot in a short amount of time you go into shock and die almost instantly. On the other hand if you lose blood slowly you can lose a lot more and survive. Moiraine was held for perhaps a year or more? Cyndane reappeared much sooner than that, and Lanfear was MUCH stronger than Moiraine. All of this points to the conclusion that Lanfear died of shock (or the equivalent) before she could be drained overwhelmingly. Perhaps one of her wishes (or Moiraine's!) forced the issue.

 

- SH told Graendal something very interesting the prior chapter. She began to say that because Rand thought her dead, she could... but then she was cut off and told that another had that job (words to that effect). Taken literally, you could argue that there was a job in the works by somebody else Rand thought was dead (Lanfear for instance).

 

- How did she get in Rand's dreams? The Moridin connection is the only way we currently know of by the rules of the WOT this should be possible. Lanfear styled herself mistress of Tel'aran'rhiod, she might have the skills to enter Moridin's dreams (invited) and find a way to touch Rand's.

 

-Why was she being punished? Is it likely that Lanfear stepped out of line so far that she was removed as a useful tool off camera? Aside from pure bloody mindedness (not to be dismissed I suppose) why bother to mindtrap her and then just destroy her? Doesn't seem like a good use of resources.

 

 

I think its very likely this whole thing is a trap, under the assumption that Lews Therin still cared enough for her to do something rash. I hope she (and Moridin) may end up sorely disappointed.

[BrandonXRoss]

I think Lan'fear once boasted that she could break through the wards that Rand set on his dreams. If this is true then that could explain the Trap Angle easily enough. Honestly I think it being a trap is just too obvious, but then, maybe I'm just being tricked by reverse psychology.

 

I think that the Redemption Angle has some merit. If Lan'fear craves power above anything else and is now rendered a tool she could easily find herself making another mistake that puts her in the situation described in the epilogue. Perhaps she tried to strike down Moridin in an attempt to be free of the mind trap? Would that even work?

 

In any case, if it's not a trap and she really is being tortured by the DO then it sounds like she has been broken. If so, she'll probably follow anyone that protects her from being tortured. That kind of treatment tends to fundamentally change a person. Her desire for power would be overshadowed by her need for security. This doesn't mean that she will no longer be treacherous/murderous/psychotic however, just that these or any other traits wouldn't have the same level of freedom, since she would constantly be worried about being tortured again.

 

Another possibility is that with his post-VoG lightness Rand might drive away whatever taint the DO placed on her when she drilled the bore and through her years of service. If she wasn't corrupt before then there could be some hope of partial redemption...

 

All that said, I think Lan'fear is probably going to die beyond the DO's reach. The only way she could truly be fully redeemed is to be born again in another life. Maybe she will turn and serve the light in her final days, just to spite the DO for torturing her.

[JSSheridan]

Another reason to bring Lanfear/Cyndane back into the picture is she was the one who originally drilled the bore. Rand still doesn't know how to patch/repair the bore, perhaps Lanfear may have some insight into the solution.

This is off topic, but of all the talk about sealing the Bore, I think there's a different way to look at it. The Bore could be a phenomena of the pattern, like where the threads are knotted up, and it would need to be destroyed. The TP would be used to unmake the Bore.

[didymos]

The Bore could be a phenomena of the pattern, like where the threads are knotted up, and it would need to be destroyed.

 

No, it's not. If it weren't clear enough from tSR that it was damage done to the Pattern, RJ has told us what it is:

Crossroads of Twilight Book Tour 18 January 2003 - Cambridge, MA

 

Q: What exactly is the Bore?

 

RJ: Well, it is at…No, I shouldn't say that. It is a thinness in the Pattern that you can feel the most at Shayol Ghul.

 

It is not a natural phenomenon. It was created by humans. That is why it is always referred to as something that was drilled or opened, and why it is said to be blocked and something through which the DO reaches. Indeed the very name tells you that it is a lack of something; that something was removed. That is why it was said to have been sealed too. You don't seal a knot (well, you can, but that's in the sense of a sealant and thus a way of keeping that knot around), or say a knot has been opened or drilled or needs to be closed.

[Alexandros]

In one of Aviendha's visions I recall it was stated that there were four bloodlines from the Dragon. Min, Elayne and Aviendha are obviously three, but where is the fourth from? Something to think about...

[waffle]

So grinding her bones is not a punishment for a new screwup but the same one she got mindtrapped for?

 

Why assume she's even telling the truth about that?

 

I´m not assuming that. If her new punishments are coming out of nowhere then that suggests that she is putting on an act.

[dwn]

In one of Aviendha's visions I recall it was stated that there were four bloodlines from the Dragon. Min, Elayne and Aviendha are obviously three, but where is the fourth from? Something to think about...

 

Four bloodlines among the Aiel, one from each of Aviendha's four children.

 

-- dwn

[Coraxian]

She is still mindtrapped, so Moridin was probably looking at her, and Rand just happened to brush up against his conscience, allowing him to see what Moridin was seeing.

 

 

My thoughts as well.

 

Also, still have the idea in my head that Mierin, back when she was looking for more Power went to the Aelfinn and asked where she could find more power, more beauty etc. They might have led her to the DO and the Eelfinn. Although I seem to remember this being shot down once... bad memory, I guess.

[Sharaman]

She is still mindtrapped, so Moridin was probably looking at her, and Rand just happened to brush up against his conscience, allowing him to see what Moridin was seeing.

 

 

My thoughts as well.

 

Also, still have the idea in my head that Mierin, back when she was looking for more Power went to the Aelfinn and asked where she could find more power, more beauty etc. They might have led her to the DO and the Eelfinn. Although I seem to remember this being shot down once... bad memory, I guess.

 

Urban legend - been speculated about by fans. Not a shred of textual evidence for it.

Some textual evidence against - you cannot enter the Tear and Rhuidean portals more than once in a lifetime. The second time you try it won't work.

(You can enter ToG multiple times though).

[Zorlon]

The epilogue made me think Lanfear might have been turned to the shadow.

 

She was a leader on the research team which drilled the Bore, and was one of the few survivors of the Sharom's destruction.

 

Everytime we've seen her since she has been a nasty spirited sort and a champion of the dark. But what was she like before that?

 

We have two sources for what she was like before the turning to the shadow; a throwaway line from Lews Therin in book four "you loved power", and Rand's ancestor seen in Rhuidean who, until his dying day, always thought Mierin used to be a pretty nice lady and he doesn't know what happened to her.

 

This is what Jordan said in a Tor Q&A about what happens when someone is turned against their will.

 

Week 15 Question: When a channeler is forcibly turned to the Dark' date=' is his/her former personality lost to eternity? Are they in a permanent state of mindless Compulsion? Furthermore, can a channeler forcibly turned to the Dark return to the Light unaided?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: They are not in a mindless state of Compulsion. Their former personality is twisted, the darker elements that everyone has to some degree elevated while what might be called the good elements are largely suppressed. I don't mean things like courage, which is useful even to villains, but they are unlikely to be very charitable, for example, and forget any altruistic impulses. Call it being turned into a mirror image of yourself in many ways. It is very unlikely that a channeler forcibly turned to the Shadow could find a way back to the Light unaided. For one reason, by virtue of the twisting he or she had undergone, it is very unlikely that he or she would have any desire to do so.[/quote']

 

Certainly sounds like the difference between pre and post bore Mierin, and it would explain why Jordan made such a point about how kindly Rand's ancestor Charn always thought her to be.

 

Further, Jordan's answer implies one could be aided in returning to the light. Considering her position on the research team she could certainly be useful in finding a way to seal the bore. Plus, four women would be more in line with the Arthurian themes Jordan draws on.

 

Any chance this is where Sanderson's going, or am I reading too much into things?

[Guest Emu on the Loose]

The epilogue made me think Lanfear might have been turned to the shadow. ... Any chance this is where Sanderson's going, or am I reading too much into things?

 

I think this is by far the likeliest possibility. I'll bet they're making a faction for this already over at Theoryland.

 

If true, it would mean that the "he" in "he has me" is the Dark One. It would, as you said, explain Charn's positive view of her, Lews Therin's ambiguous view of her, and Lanfear's own complete lack of interest in advancing the interests of the Dark. It would also explain the "daughter" aspect of "Daughter of the Night," since "Lanfear" would have been a work of the Shadow. I remember in Jordan's letter to a fan he said very clearly that Lanfear would never have Rand's best interests at heart, even if she was helping him. However, if Lanfear had been forcibly turned, that seemingly decisive comment could turn out to be yet another one of RJ's classic "lying to you with the truth" statements.

 

If Lanfear had been forcibly turned, then we also finally be able to hazard an educated guess at what "Last Chance" means: Mierin's last chance to deliver herself (or be saved) from the grip of the Shadow. I'll bet you her wishes to the Finns play into this.

 

We're looking at one of the biggest plot twists in the series, and we've already figured it out! Now, to wait sixteen months for resolution...ugh!

[mbuehner]

I don't buy it. Everybody we suspect of undergoing a 13x13 type of transformation ends up 'off'. Not only that but Lanfear schemed (even from her own pov) of usurping the DO with Rand. Doesn't seem likely from somebody turned to serve the DO. Finally, why would Meirin's 'soul' look like Cyndane if it were being tormented by the DO for age after age.

 

It also doesn't work from a story pov. Lanfear's demise is one of hubris, just as drilling into the DO's prison was an act of hubris. Everything she has done has been for her own ends (as Verin noted about dark friends), for her own selfish reasons, SOME of which intersected her service to the dark. The idea that the Dark One could seize a person's soul and replace it with a more selfish version of them doesn't seem right.

 

Occam's razor- she's lying, its a trap.