Moiraine

[OneAwesomeOpossum]

I wonder why Lanfear had to be re-incarnated into her new body while Moiraine remained the same. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? At first, I thought that Moridin (if he is indeed the one that went to retrieve Lanfear) just killed her so he didn't have to bargain with the Finn for her release, and then the DO brought her back to life in another body.

[Sharaman]

I wonder why Lanfear had to be re-incarnated into her new body while Moiraine remained the same. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? At first, I thought that Moridin (if he is indeed the one that went to retrieve Lanfear) just killed her so he didn't have to bargain with the Finn for her release, and then the DO brought her back to life in another body.

Assume the Finns did kill her - they don't lie as such though they do deceive. If they told Moiraine they killed her, they probably did.

GLoD for some reason needed to retrieve the body (maybe because the time-space elements of Finnland are so different).

So she was retrieved, transmigrated and Healed by a woman.

The timelines fit.

[Kaznen]

I'm picturing a FoM mixer and Thom and Mo coming up to Galad, Gawyn, and Elyane and Thom saying, "Hey kids, I'm your Uncle Thom!"

[Bob T Dwarf]

I'm picturing a FoM mixer and Thom and Mo coming up to Galad, Gawyn, and Elyane and Thom saying, "Hey kids, I'm your Uncle Thom!"

 

Galad, Gawyn, and Elayne already think of him that way anyhow. They'd be cool with it.

 

They might need an adjustment period with Moiraine acting all 'Aunty' on them, though.

[didymos]

The Finn didn't GIVE it to her, they let her KEEP it. HUGE difference. It came through the doorway with her and Lanfear. Try again.

 

You try again: she specifically said that it was one of the three things she asked of them. Where it came from is irrelevant, and besides, she didn't have it to keep. Lanfear was the one wearing it when they went through the door.

[Bob T Dwarf]

You try again: she specifically said that it was one of the three things she asked of them. Where it came from is irrelevant, and besides, she didn't have it to keep. Lanfear was the one wearing it when they went through the door.

 

Close, but no cigar:

 

Moiraine did not like that circle of carved age-dark ivory. At first glance it seemed to be an acrobat bending backwards to grip his ankles. Only a closer look would show that his wrists and ankles were bound together. She did not like it, but she had brought it out of Rhuidean. Yesterday she had taken the bracelet from a sack of odds-and-ends and left it lying there at the foot of the doorframe.

 

...

 

Suppressing a small bubble of hope - she could not allow herself that luxury - Moiraine balanced upright a moment on the wagontail, then embraced the True Source and leaped at Lanfear. The Forsaken had an instant's warning, enough to turn before Moiraine struck her, clawing the bracelet away. Face to face, they toppled through the doorframe ter'angreal. White light swallowed everything.

 

Moiraine had possession of the bracelet when they went through the doorway.

[The Watcher and Wanderer]

I found it quite intriguing that the Finns had the ability to actually drain her strength in the One Power. How in the Light would that be possible?

 

Also, I wonder if she was kept the whole time where they found her, Snow-White style. She was in some sort of induced sleep, it looked like -- still makes me wonder whether they fed her.

 

I also wonder if one of her requests was for her bond with Lan to be severed -- if they were capable of doing so. That way everyone would think she was dead and Lan would go follow his own path.

 

 

Well Lan going his own way is the last thing Moiraine wanted which is why she arranged to have his bond pass to Myrrel. Still I think you might be on the right track here. If Lan knew she was alive he obviously would have tried to rescue her, and since she knew it had to be Mat, Thom and Noal who rescued her Lan's attempt would mean certain death for him and possibly her too.

[Jhirrad]

You try again: she specifically said that it was one of the three things she asked of them. Where it came from is irrelevant, and besides, she didn't have it to keep. Lanfear was the one wearing it when they went through the door.

 

Close, but no cigar:

 

Moiraine did not like that circle of carved age-dark ivory. At first glance it seemed to be an acrobat bending backwards to grip his ankles. Only a closer look would show that his wrists and ankles were bound together. She did not like it, but she had brought it out of Rhuidean. Yesterday she had taken the bracelet from a sack of odds-and-ends and left it lying there at the foot of the doorframe.

 

...

 

Suppressing a small bubble of hope - she could not allow herself that luxury - Moiraine balanced upright a moment on the wagontail, then embraced the True Source and leaped at Lanfear. The Forsaken had an instant's warning, enough to turn before Moiraine struck her, clawing the bracelet away. Face to face, they toppled through the doorframe ter'angreal. White light swallowed everything.

 

Moiraine had possession of the bracelet when they went through the doorway.

 

This. Thanks for finding that quote. I'm at work and don't have my books handy.

[SheriLevisay]

She's AS - cannot break her word if, just if, he says "yes, throw it away". Would a Royal Blue who's gone through so much, risk not being able to save the world for a whim?

 

Yes, but throwing away a strong angreal on the eve of the TG is madness in any case and totally unworthy of a Royal Blue. If she truly believed that Thom could hold her to it, wouldn't she have offered to never use it and give it away at the first opportunity? She didn't promise not to use other *angreal or not to link, either. What an AS tells you... ;).

I also kind of don't understand why Thom's problems with channeling women suddenly re-appeared now after volumes spent tagging after SGs and not having any problems with their channeling. I mean, he moped and played mournful music for ages, then went to ToG drawing Mat and Noal into an extremely risky endeavor (and would have gone alone, to certain death), hauled Moiraine around for hours of mortal danger and after all that when she proposes to him, he hesitates and brings up her being an OP user? Huh?

IMHO, all of this is rather jarring and problematic motivation-wise.

 

Moiraine isn't the first one to potentially throw away a valuable weapon - think Choedan Kal. If strength in the One Power were all that's required to defeat the DO, Rand already made the larger mistake.

[Deadsy]

Wow..... long post, sorry about that.

 

Your post was great, but then the crazies came back so I threw my hands in the air.

[didymos]

You try again: she specifically said that it was one of the three things she asked of them. Where it came from is irrelevant, and besides, she didn't have it to keep. Lanfear was the one wearing it when they went through the door.

 

Close, but no cigar:

 

Moiraine did not like that circle of carved age-dark ivory. At first glance it seemed to be an acrobat bending backwards to grip his ankles. Only a closer look would show that his wrists and ankles were bound together. She did not like it, but she had brought it out of Rhuidean. Yesterday she had taken the bracelet from a sack of odds-and-ends and left it lying there at the foot of the doorframe.

 

...

 

Suppressing a small bubble of hope - she could not allow herself that luxury - Moiraine balanced upright a moment on the wagontail, then embraced the True Source and leaped at Lanfear. The Forsaken had an instant's warning, enough to turn before Moiraine struck her, clawing the bracelet away. Face to face, they toppled through the doorframe ter'angreal. White light swallowed everything.

 

Moiraine had possession of the bracelet when they went through the doorway.

 

This. Thanks for finding that quote. I'm at work and don't have my books handy.

 

In any case, that angreal was still one of the three things she requested, and she still did not have possession of it when she asked:

 

"They placed it on me to let me draw more of the Power, to make their feeding more succulent. I asked for it, actually, as one of my three demands."

 

I.e., they did not let her keep it.

[Gerrendus]

I don't know that this point is really valid...but so far we've only seen "new Moiraine" through Mat's eyes. When we last saw her I would argue that Rand/Perrin/Mat were still fairly new to the world and hadn't had so much interaction with Aes Sedai. While it could be that Moiraine is more tender, etc now, it could just as easily be that Mat is that much more perceptive to it now, having traveled with Aes Sedai and become more of a worldly traveler, etc.

[didymos]

I don't know that this point is really valid...but so far we've only seen "new Moiraine" through Mat's eyes. When we last saw her I would argue that Rand/Perrin/Mat were still fairly new to the world and hadn't had so much interaction with Aes Sedai. While it could be that Moiraine is more tender, etc now, it could just as easily be that Mat is that much more perceptive to it now, having traveled with Aes Sedai and become more of a worldly traveler, etc.

 

That's a good point, actually. Moiraine is Cairhienin, and they're noted for being hard to read and reserved. Now consider how Mat has recently clued in on what's really going on in Talmanes' head. And he's Cairhienin as well.

[Jeangray]

Moiraine isn't the first one to potentially throw away a valuable weapon - think Choedan Kal. If strength in the One Power were all that's required to defeat the DO, Rand already made the larger mistake.

 

Not comparable at all. Rand had valid concerns that CK in wrong hands could be used to end the world. The bracelet angreal is a valuable tool, but nothing more. It is a tool that could, potentially, save thousands of lives. And one on which Moiraine has already spent one of her dearly bought wishes. Throwing it away would be just sheer lunacy and gross selfishness on her part. Making this offer to Thom seemed completely out of character. But then, his sudden anti-OP reservations about Moiraine's proposal at this late juncture seemed very odd too.

 

What is more, what if Rand or somebody else important were mortally wounded or attacked from behind? Then Moiraine having that angreal could spell the difference between the Light losing or not.

[Dogmae]

And if Moiraine knew that bargaining her way out wasn't an option, why ask to keep an angreal? Why not go for broke and ask for the strongest sa'angreal that the Finn had? Not to mention that the bracelet is kind of evilish in appearance.

It makes me wonder if it's just an angreal (or was it a sa'angreal? I can't remember). It seems like an odd request - "Please give me an item of Power that I already have access to in the real world" - I am willing to bet that Moiraine could locate an angreal or three if she needed them from the WT.

 

No, I think there's more to this bracelet than a simple enhancing of Power... otherwise it seems like a god-awful request.

 

That request could have been an accident. When they fell through the door the bracelet may have fallen to the ground, and a quick Finn picked it up. "Give me that back" she says, and then "Your first request is granted!"

[dwn]

It should be noted that the *Finns took Moiraine's clothing, jewelry, and possibly the robed woman angreal. She managed to hang onto the best of the bunch, though had she known they'd suck out her ability to channel, she may have bargained differently.

 

It was also kinda spiffy that the dream/viewing of Thom pulling Moiraine's blue gem out of a fire came true almost literally with the burning mist surrounding her.

 

-- dwn

[Demon_AS]

And if Moiraine knew that bargaining her way out wasn't an option, why ask to keep an angreal? Why not go for broke and ask for the strongest sa'angreal that the Finn had? Not to mention that the bracelet is kind of evilish in appearance.

It makes me wonder if it's just an angreal (or was it a sa'angreal? I can't remember). It seems like an odd request - "Please give me an item of Power that I already have access to in the real world" - I am willing to bet that Moiraine could locate an angreal or three if she needed them from the WT.

 

No, I think there's more to this bracelet than a simple enhancing of Power... otherwise it seems like a god-awful request.

 

That request could have been an accident. When they fell through the door the bracelet may have fallen to the ground, and a quick Finn picked it up. "Give me that back" she says, and then "Your first request is granted!"

Alas, my conclusion was based on incorrect information.

 

I had forgotten that Moiraine already possessed that bracelet before she jumped into the red-stone ter'anreal, so my thoughts on it were flawed due to that premise.

[Deadsy]

I'll eat my tongue if Moiraine's importance has anything to do with how strong she is at channeling. That's never had anything to do with it. It was cool in EotW. But it will have nothing to do with beating the Dark One. If it did, Rand would want the most powerful channelers, not two he trusts. Beating the Dark One doesn't come down to strength in the OP. If it does, well, that's stupid. :P

 

 

And I'll say it again, she was just telling Thom she loved him that much. Even if she really would have given it up I'm sure she knew he wouldn't actually ask it of her.

[dyoung]

Hey all. Finally decided to join up. Post numero uno. Hope it doesn't suck.

 

I see several possibilities for why Moiraine chose to ask for the bracelet as one of her wishes.

 

1. The dialogue in the camp after the rescue and Mat's internal monologue suggest that Moiraine knew what would happen to her (i.e. the draining of her power). We know from tSR that she had knowledge of the Aelfinn and Eelfinn and what they did. Therefore, she could have asked for the bracelet anticipating their draining her power since she knew she was going to be imprisoned; however, she didn't know (by her own words) that they would use the bracelet against her by making her draw more of the OP and draining her ability more. This would imply she knew she would need to be a strong channeler upon leaving the tower to play her part, like being in the circle wielding Callendor since it may be that it has a strength requirement like the CK.

 

2. Moiraine saw in Rhuidean that she would be imprisoned in the tower, but it never says what she knew of Lanfear's fate. Her asking for the bracelet may have been to prevent Lanfear from having it (with the possibility of her escaping) since with it she was more than a match for Rand.

 

These are two possible reasons, and I tend to think it's more likely that the first one were true. But I guess we'll just have to RAFO. (How I hate that phrase!)

[MoonBeams]

Moiraine and Thom's romance is not so fargone. I remember in The Shadow Rising, after Elayne & Egwene came to terms that Elayne could have Rand, Egwene asked Moiraine had she ever been in love and Moiraine answered "I could wager I know know the face of the man I will marry better than either of you knows that of your future husband". Moiraine knew that she was going to marry Thom. That along with Egwene's dream about Thom plucking the blue stone that Moiraine always wore in her hair from the fire ties the two of them together.

 

 

Question is, what 3 questions did she ask the snakes in TGS and what did she ask for from the foxes?? Min's viewing said that without Moiraine, Rand would fail. She may be the 3rd person to meld the flows with Rand and Callandor. I think the man who came to the TOG and said Moiraine was not the one he was looking for was Luc/Isam, he is the only one I know who could enter the Tower w/o using a doorframe.

 

I also think its time for Aes Sedai to become more "human" and feel more emotions such as love and to get married and have children, it will help them be better overall. We see Egwene/Gawyn, Nynaeve/Lan, Elayne/Rand, Siuan/Gareth, Moiraine/Thom having relationships and it makes them stronger.

[Deadsy]

Question is, what 3 questions did she ask the snakes in TGS and what did she ask for from the foxes?? Min's viewing said that without Moiraine, Rand would fail. She may be the 3rd person to meld the flows with Rand and Callandor. I think the man who came to the TOG and said Moiraine was not the one he was looking for was Luc/Isam, he is the only one I know who could enter the Tower w/o using a doorframe.

 

I think you mean TSR for her questions. And, I have no clue :)

 

I've felt since the prophecy that he'd use callandor with Nynaeve and Moiraine. There's no other pair that would be as poignant to me. He already loves Aviendha/Min/Elayne. They don't need to be part of that. Plus, that would leave Min out. It would just be fitting to have it come full circle with Moiraine and Nynaeve working together.

 

I also think she will be important in the big Meeting coming up. So those are the two things I can think of, and that leaves out whatever she got from the 2nd doorway. Since it's nothing physical it was probably knowledge. "Give me knowledge that will help Rand." ? I dunno.

 

 

My only problem with it being Luc is that Moiraine might have described him differently than "a man." Everyone who sees him says he looks a lot like Rand or a lot like Lan. Though I guess Perrin didn't think much of that back in TSR.

[knutz]

Question is, what 3 questions did she ask the snakes in TGS and what did she ask for from the foxes?? Min's viewing said that without Moiraine, Rand would fail. She may be the 3rd person to meld the flows with Rand and Callandor. I think the man who came to the TOG and said Moiraine was not the one he was looking for was Luc/Isam, he is the only one I know who could enter the Tower w/o using a doorframe.

 

I think you mean TSR for her questions. And, I have no clue :)

 

I've felt since the prophecy that he'd use callandor with Nynaeve and Moiraine. There's no other pair that would be as poignant to me. He already loves Aviendha/Min/Elayne. They don't need to be part of that. Plus, that would leave Min out. It would just be fitting to have it come full circle with Moiraine and Nynaeve working together.

 

I also think she will be important in the big Meeting coming up. So those are the two things I can think of, and that leaves out whatever she got from the 2nd doorway. Since it's nothing physical it was probably knowledge. "Give me knowledge that will help Rand." ? I dunno.

 

 

My only problem with it being Luc is that Moiraine might have described him differently than "a man." Everyone who sees him says he looks a lot like Rand or a lot like Lan. Though I guess Perrin didn't think much of that back in TSR.

 

Morraine's purpose is to hand Rand the missing page from the Randland prophecies that she found in Vanden/adelas's place. The one torn from the original 300-1000 years ago that says the Dragon must bow to the crystal throne.

[dyoung]

I think the man who Moiraine saw in the TOG who said she wasn't the one he wanted was Moridin come to claim Lanfear.

[WolfDragonFox]

Great to have Moiraine back but I gotta say it was WAY LATE in the book and too quick...much more should have been covered in this part of the adventure. Jain's reveal should have been better, Thom and Moiraine's marriage proposal is coming WAY to quickly with no detail even tho we know it was coming. Mat's eye loss was great and the fact that he comes to realize how important she was to HIM hints at how much she is going to mean to the rest of the characters who's lives her involvement has molded to what they are now. Gonna be a tear jerker.

[AutomatedTeller]

My thought was that it was Slayer, too...

 

but wouldn't Slayer have tormented Moiraine? Luc's sister married Moiraine's brother, so there's some family bit there, and Slayer's never seemed like one to pass up some good torture if he could do it.

 

I think i agree that it was Moridin looking for Lanfear.