Moiraine

[Hopefire]

I'm pretty Rand reconciled himself with her apparent death when he came to his realization at the end of TGS.

 

Not completely. He is still feels guilty about other people he's responsible for killing. Like the King of Arad Doman. And he also feels guilty about other things that have gone wrong because of him.

I'd say he feels more pain and guilt than ever, but now he lets himself feel it. The way I see his habit of keeping a list of names of women who died because of him was a survival method for his mind. On some level, he knew that he was losing his capacity for empathy and compassion, and so he started the list as a way of forcing himself to feel something for others. With the changes to Rand's mind, he's again able to feel without the need to flay himself to force himself to feel.

[f3llyn]

I didn't mean to say he doesn't feel pain or guilt over her apparent death, or for all the others. But that he came to terms with himself and no longer believes it was his fault. I also believe that the list no longer exists for him. And I saw it more of a punishment for him thinking he was not strong enough that some sort of coping mechanism.

 

He used it to remind himself of his failures and also as a reminder of what happens if he fails; people close to him die.

[Deadsy]

But that he came to terms with himself and no longer believes it was his fault.

 

It is partially his fault though, so I don't see why that would go away. The difference now is that it's not a reason to make himself hard. It's likely true he doesn't blame every death on himself now, but Moiraine's "death" was more avoidable (in his mind) than the others. It was a direct consequence of his inability to kill Lanfear.

 

 

One innocent I assumed that I'd killed still lives. That's something. A small something. But it helps

 

I think he'll consider Moiraine's return a lot more than "A small something."

[blazetheearth]

I thought the answer to Cyndane was "intuitively obvious".

 

Slayer goes into the ToG (Perrin sees him do this), he finds Moiraine and Lanfear (Moiraine sees some man say something about her not being the one he was looking for), and then kills Lanfear. No bargaining. Slayer's particular skills allow him to find them quickly or something (hey, he can go in and out of TaR without channeling), without bargaining. Lanfear has been fed on a little bit by this point, and then she is transmigrated. Her loss of power carries through, she gets her new body, Cyndane.

 

No crazy healing by Black Ajah theories needed, no need to discuss the metaphysics of being stilled/severed/burned out and being fed on.

 

The Finns lie to Moiraine. They didn't want to give her hope of rescue or death.

 

I agree with almost everything (definitely the part about no crazy BA healing stilling theories). But I have to correct one part in particular, Perrin does not see Slayer 'enter' ToG. Perrin follows Slayer to it and thinks that he must have gone in, but at the time Perrin was not that skilled in TAR and was following blur trails from massive leaps and jumps of miles at a time. We know that no one has to leave one of those, so Slayer could just easily have stopped at the bottom of the ToG and then teleported with no blur to follow to TV or Tear or even right back to the TR. Perrin 'assumes' that he goes inside, but does not see it.

 

I prefer the idea that the Finns killed Lanfear by draining her to quickly, similar to the way that one can kill yourself or burn themselves out by drawing too much. That they sucked so much OP through her that it killed her, but that act reduced the amount of OP strength that was tied to her soul to begin with (similar to Moiraine's weakening). Moir's draining took longer and therefore her reduction was much greater. And because channeling ability is tied to the soul (per RJ) when Mierin was transmigrated into the body we know as Cyndane her loss of max power was still present, where as had she died and been reborn in the normal fashion, then her ability might be restored. Same with Moir, I doubt that she can be brought back to her original strength, short of dying and being spun back out by the Wheel.

 

It definitely seems that many people on these forums need a close shave with Occam's Razor.

[johthohar]

Technically, no, but Moridin is certainly the most likely person to do so. If you must, replace 'Moridin' above with 'Moridin, one of his lackeys, or some random guy who was shopping for women'. I was going for brevity.

 

-- dwn

 

It was me. I woulda taken Moiraine but I just don't dig short chicks.

[Fable]

Whether Jordan already wrote the reunion scene between Moiraine and Rand, or Brandon Sanderson has yet to write it... that scene had better rival the Rand/Tam reunion take 2 in ToM.

 

If nothing else can be said about the Aes Sedai it's that they have completely and utterly failed in every attempt to interact with The Dragon Reborn in a positive manner with the two exceptions of Verin and Moiraine, Moiraine's success being the most prolific. Even Egwene has so far failed because she, like nearly every other woman in this series that has met Rand, thinks she 1) somehow knows what's best for him despite his thoughts and 2) seems intent to manipulate him to comply.

 

Moiraine is one of two Aes Sedai that Rand trusts implicitly, the other being Nyneave. And learning what she asked should also be monumental. If she used her wishes solely to aid Rand in winning the last battle its a sacrifice he cannot repay except through his own sacrifice to seal the DO. Nyneave may resent Rand sacrificing Lan, but she also sees him differently than anyone else does. She sees him as the boy from the Two Rivers who learned that he would have no choice but to save the world and have the world resent him for it. Despite the fact that he may have doomed her husband Nyneave still does what only Moiraine and possibly Min have done in this series... she tries to understand him. Moiraine has sacrificed for Rand years before they'd ever met and took the step of surrendering to him like he was the living embodiment of the OP. Moiraine stopped looking at Rand as the boy from the Two Rivers and instead let herself view him as The Dragon.

[Rookie.Rider]

First of all, hello all. I introduced myself yesterday, but this is my first post here at DM. I was a regular at wotmania, but have been away since.

 

Anyways, I am a bit dissapointed that Moiraine lost her strenght in the Power. That affects her "rankings" within the Aes Sedai. With that Angreal, she can do just as much as before. The only thing that rankles me is that being an Aes Sedai, and her Power diminished, she will have to bow and defer to the likes of Cadsuane. Yes, she can take on the same attitude as Sorilea, but that is not her style.

 

About that bracelet. Much attention has been focused on it. I wonder if there is something special about it. And to whom does it belong to? To Moiraine Sedai, or to the White Tower?

 

Surely she must have taken something from the Snakes and the Foxes. Information, certainly. But I wonder, since we find them both in the same place, whether she also received something more tangible from them. Perhaps a special skill, or ability? I'm hoping the ability to channel another power source.

[capuga]

First of all, hello all. I introduced myself yesterday, but this is my first post here at DM. I was a regular at wotmania, but have been away since.

 

Anyways, I am a bit dissapointed that Moiraine lost her strenght in the Power. That affects her "rankings" within the Aes Sedai. With that Angreal, she can do just as much as before. The only thing that rankles me is that being an Aes Sedai, and her Power diminished, she will have to bow and defer to the likes of Cadsuane. Yes, she can take on the same attitude as Sorilea, but that is not her style.

 

About that bracelet. Much attention has been focused on it. I wonder if there is something special about it. And to whom does it belong to? To Moiraine Sedai, or to the White Tower?

 

Surely she must have taken something from the Snakes and the Foxes. Information, certainly. But I wonder, since we find them both in the same place, whether she also received something more tangible from them. Perhaps a special skill, or ability? I'm hoping the ability to channel another power source.

 

Welcome to DM!

 

I don't worry much about Moiraine's standing with the Aes Sedai because I believe after the Last Battle she will retire with Thom and enjoy some quite time and a well earned rest and won't spend much time interacting with other Aes Sedai. (And she would have had to defer to Cadsuane anyways - she was the strongest until the wonder girls came along. Its the idiots like Romanda and Lelaine that would bother me more.)

 

I also can't wait to see wait knowledge she brings back with her from the ToG.

[Moogle]

 

I prefer the idea that the Finns killed Lanfear by draining her to quickly, similar to the way that one can kill yourself or burn themselves out by drawing too much. That they sucked so much OP through her that it killed her, but that act reduced the amount of OP strength that was tied to her soul to begin with (similar to Moiraine's weakening). Moir's draining took longer and therefore her reduction was much greater. And because channeling ability is tied to the soul (per RJ) when Mierin was transmigrated into the body we know as Cyndane her loss of max power was still present, where as had she died and been reborn in the normal fashion, then her ability might be restored. Same with Moir, I doubt that she can be brought back to her original strength, short of dying and being spun back out by the Wheel.

 

Going to have to disagree. The Finns obviously seem to love draining their victim of the one power (and enjoying the victim's sadness as it happens), and Moiraine/Lanfear can't have been the first Aes Sedai they've done this too. I think they would have learned the limits they could draw from without killing them, so as to keep them sad for longer.

 

After all, what's the point of Moiraine saying that she saw a man come and mention she wasn't the one he was looking for if Lanfear just died due to a mistake by the Finns? Doesn't have much relelvance: it appears at the least that a man came into the Tower looking for Lanfear.

[capuga]

 

I prefer the idea that the Finns killed Lanfear by draining her to quickly, similar to the way that one can kill yourself or burn themselves out by drawing too much. That they sucked so much OP through her that it killed her, but that act reduced the amount of OP strength that was tied to her soul to begin with (similar to Moiraine's weakening). Moir's draining took longer and therefore her reduction was much greater. And because channeling ability is tied to the soul (per RJ) when Mierin was transmigrated into the body we know as Cyndane her loss of max power was still present, where as had she died and been reborn in the normal fashion, then her ability might be restored. Same with Moir, I doubt that she can be brought back to her original strength, short of dying and being spun back out by the Wheel.

 

Going to have to disagree. The Finns obviously seem to love draining their victim of the one power (and enjoying the victim's sadness as it happens), and Moiraine/Lanfear can't have been the first Aes Sedai they've done this too. I think they would have learned the limits they could draw from without killing them, so as to keep them sad for longer.

After all, what's the point of Moiraine saying that she saw a man come and mention she wasn't the one he was looking for if Lanfear just died due to a mistake by the Finns? Doesn't have much relelvance: it appears at the least that a man came into the Tower looking for Lanfear.

 

Its been a long time since anyone entered Finnland with any regularity though (at least that's the impression I have) so they could just be junkies jonesing for their hit and got a little too anxious.

[blazetheearth]

I prefer the idea that the Finns killed Lanfear by draining her to quickly, similar to the way that one can kill yourself or burn themselves out by drawing too much. That they sucked so much OP through her that it killed her, but that act reduced the amount of OP strength that was tied to her soul to begin with (similar to Moiraine's weakening). Moir's draining took longer and therefore her reduction was much greater. And because channeling ability is tied to the soul (per RJ) when Mierin was transmigrated into the body we know as Cyndane her loss of max power was still present, where as had she died and been reborn in the normal fashion, then her ability might be restored. Same with Moir, I doubt that she can be brought back to her original strength, short of dying and being spun back out by the Wheel.

 

Going to have to disagree. The Finns obviously seem to love draining their victim of the one power (and enjoying the victim's sadness as it happens), and Moiraine/Lanfear can't have been the first Aes Sedai they've done this too. I think they would have learned the limits they could draw from without killing them, so as to keep them sad for longer.

After all, what's the point of Moiraine saying that she saw a man come and mention she wasn't the one he was looking for if Lanfear just died due to a mistake by the Finns? Doesn't have much relelvance: it appears at the least that a man came into the Tower looking for Lanfear.

 

Its been a long time since anyone entered Finnland with any regularity though (at least that's the impression I have) so they could just be junkies jonesing for their hit and got a little too anxious.

 

 

That was my thought, Lanfear was by far thestronger of the 2 and they may have overestimated what she could take and were then much more careful with how much the drew. As for why she remembered some guy.... we already have seen that the DO (much less the Forsaken) are not able to see everything that goes on with every person sworn to him. As was presented by a previous poster, it's possible that the only reason the Finns drew too much from Lanfear was because this 'guy' showed up and told them that 2 women came to them and he wanted a bargain to take one of them . He gets taken to Moir first, and says "No, this is not her." The Finn transmit telepathically to the other Finns that he went to the wrong one so the Finns currently drawing from Lanfear start suck harder (since they know they only have her for a little longer) and they suck so hard she dies. They present the dead woman to the guy (imo, Moridin) and he tells the DO who transmigrates her soul into the body of Cyndane. That was my take on the scene, your might be different but that's how I read it.

[Declan]

to Ishadar:

For the Finns to kill Lanfear wouldn't they have to suck more of the OP than they did? I mean, Cyndane is presented to us and explained through one of the Forsaken's POV as being not strong enough - not incredibly weaker or substantially weaker, but slightly. At least that is what I got out of it. I think the guy that came to get her was Moridin and since he is of the shadow, and questions asked of the shadow to the Finns are dangerous, there must be something like a deal they made with the DO and they have to respect any emissary they send to him. So basically most of the rules don't apply to him and he can walk in there and get what he want and walk out.

 

It just doesn't make sense that the Finns drained her too quickly and killed Lanfear. I think they just said that to scare Moiraine, and Moiraine thought that as well.

 

to Rookie.Rider:

Welcome! I seriously hope Moiraine gets to keep the bracelet. Since she is Moiraine and all she will no doubt be able to keep it a secret until it is too late for Egwene or something to do about it. I dont think there will be too much bowing done by Moiraine just because of the simple fact that everyone will be amazed that she is alive. No doubt she will be sticking close to Rand and not too many Aes Sedai will be able to jostle her around if she sticks to him.

[blazetheearth]

to Ishadar:

For the Finns to kill Lanfear wouldn't they have to suck more of the OP than they did? I mean, Cyndane is presented to us and explained through one of the Forsaken's POV as being not strong enough - not incredibly weaker or substantially weaker, but slightly. At least that is what I got out of it. I think the guy that came to get her was Moridin and since he is of the shadow, and questions asked of the shadow to the Finns are dangerous, there must be something like a deal they made with the DO and they have to respect any emissary they send to him. So basically most of the rules don't apply to him and he can walk in there and get what he want and walk out.

 

It just doesn't make sense that the Finns drained her too quickly and killed Lanfear. I think they just said that to scare Moiraine, and Moiraine thought that as well.

 

to Rookie.Rider:

Welcome! I seriously hope Moiraine gets to keep the bracelet. Since she is Moiraine and all she will no doubt be able to keep it a secret until it is too late for Egwene or something to do about it. I dont think there will be too much bowing done by Moiraine just because of the simple fact that everyone will be amazed that she is alive. No doubt she will be sticking close to Rand and not too many Aes Sedai will be able to jostle her around if she sticks to him.

 

That's just it, we know how much channeling potential that she lost (approx), but we have no idea how much they tried to draw through her at one time. Possibly the lost potential is based on how long/often they fed on her, and that would have no impact on how much they made her draw at once. I see what you mean, and I agree that it was Moridin, but I just can't see him killing her so that the DO could transmigrate her. If he has as much respect from the Finns as you describe then he could just pay their price to bring her out (give them a random BA member in trade for example).

 

We know that if a channeler exceeds their channeling potential, one of 2 things happens: 1) they're burned out or 2) they die. If the Finns made her pull more than her potential would have allowed, it could kill her, and I can see them drawing way to quickly of they thought they were going to lose her soon (because of Moridin's arrival)

[Declan]

I understand what you are saying but if they made her draw too much power so that it killed her, what would be the point of Moridin coming to get her? If she had died the DO would almost instantly know about it and there would be no reason to send the Nae'blis in after her. And since she isn't burned out because we know her to be Cyndane who can still channel. How did she die? Maybe Moridin made a deal with them but he didn't stipulate that Lanfear must be alive, and so they killed her. Judging by the Finns trickery i think that is pretty likely.

[Guest yolcu]

Just had to comment on the discussion concerning whether stilling and subsequent healing could restore Moraines full power.

 

I think it's obvious due to the fact that the discussion is so heated yet still ongoing that there is no actual proof either way. The only possible proof might be if this was in fact what happened to Lanfear. If that is what happened, then only darkfriends will know of it.

 

With this in mind we have to infer that nobody who might be able to still and then heal Moraine knows whether it would work. They may well still her, and then find out that because of what the Finns did to her, they cannot even heal that.

 

My point is that nobody knows. We don't know, and they don't know. Darkfriends might know, but that does not help Moraine. If you were her, or Nyn, or anyone else who is actually good, would you let them risk cutting you off from the source entirely forever on the chance that it might restore your full potential? I wouldn't, and I don't think Moraine would either. Especially since she has the angreal that gives her access to more strength in The Power than she had before she was taken.

 

Had to sign up to say it, and now it is said.

 

Before I go on my way, one last thing. To those who wonder why she asked for this angreal and not a stronger one, three possibilities spring to mind.

1: This is the strongest angreal that can be used by a single person?

2: The finns could only grant a gift that was already in their world, and this was the only, or the strongest one in their world.

3: This angreal is special. It has been described in detail. A man with his wrists bound to his ankles. (I don't have the books, but does this remind anyone of Rand in the box?) Perhaps it works together with, or against someone or something special? Perhaps it fixes the flaw in Callandor? We'll all have to read to find out.

 

Yolcu out!

[johthohar]

Just had to comment on the discussion concerning whether stilling and subsequent healing could restore Moraines full power.

 

I think it's obvious due to the fact that the discussion is so heated yet still ongoing that there is no actual proof either way. The only possible proof might be if this was in fact what happened to Lanfear. If that is what happened, then only darkfriends will know of it.

 

With this in mind we have to infer that nobody who might be able to still and then heal Moraine knows whether it would work. They may well still her, and then find out that because of what the Finns did to her, they cannot even heal that.

 

My point is that nobody knows. We don't know, and they don't know. Darkfriends might know, but that does not help Moraine. If you were her, or Nyn, or anyone else who is actually good, would you let them risk cutting you off from the source entirely forever on the chance that it might restore your full potential? I wouldn't, and I don't think Moraine would either. Especially since she has the angreal that gives her access to more strength in The Power than she had before she was taken.

 

Had to sign up to say it, and now it is said.

 

I actually think I was the one who brought that up in the first place. I know it's pretty much a moot point as the angreal was obviously a pre-arranged solution for the problem and I doubt the question will ever be addressed by the autor(s) much less in the books. I just thought it was interesting to discuss.

 

Before I go on my way, one last thing. To those who wonder why she asked for this angreal and not a stronger one, three possibilities spring to mind.

1: This is the strongest angreal that can be used by a single person?

2: The finns could only grant a gift that was already in their world, and this was the only, or the strongest one in their world.

3: This angreal is special. It has been described in detail. A man with his wrists bound to his ankles. (I don't have the books, but does this remind anyone of Rand in the box?) Perhaps it works together with, or against someone or something special? Perhaps it fixes the flaw in Callandor? We'll all have to read to find out.

 

Yolcu out!

 

It's mentioned several times that the bracelet is so powerful as to almost be sa'angreal so it's unlikely there are many (if any at all) more powerful than it. I remember in one of the books someone (Lanfear I think?) mentions that few people are powerful enough to use the access keys for the Choedan Kal. I suspect that there is a power threshold you have to meet or pass before you can use any given sa'angreal and Moiraine didn't want to risk receiving one she wouldn't be able to use (it would fit with the finns' behavior to grant her wish this way). If this is the case its a good thing she got the angreal since she ended up so weak after escaping.

[Guest cthulhufan]

I haven't read this whole thread yet and wanted to postulate on this matter before I do read it all.

 

At first I was genuinely perturbed by her demeanor during and after the Tower of Ghenjei; this is neither the Moiraine I know nor the Moiraine I would expect. The emotional 'outburst' or, rather, unhindered emotion was completely out of character in my mind. I respect that she very well could have spent years or decades suffering in the realm of the Finns (as per Birgette's description of time in that place).

 

Then, also, there was her complete nonchalance with regard to relinquishing her angreal which is the only thing keeping her from "barely at the level of being raised to an Accepted".

 

Then it hit me.

 

She submits to her emotions and wants nothing more than to be with Thom after she talks to Rand.

 

One of her questions. She has the key to defeating the DO and must impart that to Rand. After that she can live in peace with Thom knowing her role has been fulfilled. She asked about the DO and paid dearly for it not even knowing if that knowledge would make it back to RandLand for certain.

 

Probably way off base but I wanted to spit that out there before wading through this huge thread!

[AquilaInfernus]

Just my two cents,

 

On 'finn feeding. It sounds like burn out. Mentioned once briefly before, my image is of a straw (channel) to the OP through the soul. You can cut it (stilling/severing) or burst it (burn out). A controlled drain probably splits the straw so it leaks until the whole thing is useless. Relative OP strength might be the strength of the connection (a steel straw for Rand or a paper one for Morgase). Pain indicates the straw stretching to bursting point. (Sa')Angreals strengthen the connection and protect against the burst. The tortured acrobat angreal may also play a part in our dilemma:

 

Angreals protect against excess power (one of the flaws of Callandor is that it doesn't do this). Therefore Moiraine is (somewhat) protected as the 'finns feed, and time length is a major factor. Lanfear/Cyndane is without one, thus is drained faster, but rescued much quicker, so her power loss is less.

 

We also know burn out can result in death. Likely Lanfear's rescuer had something to do with it, killing her and stopping the power drain. I'm inclined to believe they may have addiction tendencies that explain this (as postulated above and in the description of their exctasy at Mat's eye pain). Because channelling is connected to the soul, the damage stays but could possibly be healed (a different weave for burn out than stilling).

 

I only have ToM with me so I leave it to someone else to find text references for me, if they share my sentiments. I think all the facts are right though.

[Val Mickey]

One of Cyndane's wishes was to be the strongest saidar channeler alive.

 

So the Finns drained her!

 

So she's still the strongest.

[Mystraka]

We know that Flinn can do the same. Should I take that to next level and assume that bunch of DF male channelers learned the weave (or even a forsaken) and healed Lanfear? If they were healing her, it would make sense to do it right, right?

 

IIRC, there was a span of time between Nynaeve discovery of how to Heal severing and Flinn duplicating her feat. Maybe Landane was Healed then. Also, wasn't it mentioned somewhere that the Healing Talent is more common in women than in men? There may not be another male channeler capable of doing it.

Yes, Lanfear was resurrected and mindtrapped before Moghedien who escaped from Salidar before Dumai's Well. Only Nyn's healing method was known at that stage.

 

 

Again, you cannot still and then heal someone who cannot even channel.

Also, Cyndane was first introduced in a scene with Graendal. Moghy was there too. Could you point me to scene where it says that Cyndane was resurrected and mind trapped before Moghy?

 

Moghy sees another mindtrap around Morridins neck when she meets her mia cova for the first time.

[Mystraka]

 

I prefer the idea that the Finns killed Lanfear by draining her to quickly, similar to the way that one can kill yourself or burn themselves out by drawing too much. That they sucked so much OP through her that it killed her, but that act reduced the amount of OP strength that was tied to her soul to begin with (similar to Moiraine's weakening). Moir's draining took longer and therefore her reduction was much greater. And because channeling ability is tied to the soul (per RJ) when Mierin was transmigrated into the body we know as Cyndane her loss of max power was still present, where as had she died and been reborn in the normal fashion, then her ability might be restored. Same with Moir, I doubt that she can be brought back to her original strength, short of dying and being spun back out by the Wheel.

 

Going to have to disagree. The Finns obviously seem to love draining their victim of the one power (and enjoying the victim's sadness as it happens), and Moiraine/Lanfear can't have been the first Aes Sedai they've done this too. I think they would have learned the limits they could draw from without killing them, so as to keep them sad for longer.

 

After all, what's the point of Moiraine saying that she saw a man come and mention she wasn't the one he was looking for if Lanfear just died due to a mistake by the Finns? Doesn't have much relelvance: it appears at the least that a man came into the Tower looking for Lanfear.

 

 

Lanfear was the strongest female Aes Sedai to ever pass live. You don't think its possible, when presented with a bountiful feast, the finns perhaps ate a little too quickly and ended up with a tummy ache? 40 year old men still make that mistake every thanks giving, in spite of "having done it before"

[Declan]

 

I prefer the idea that the Finns killed Lanfear by draining her to quickly, similar to the way that one can kill yourself or burn themselves out by drawing too much. That they sucked so much OP through her that it killed her, but that act reduced the amount of OP strength that was tied to her soul to begin with (similar to Moiraine's weakening). Moir's draining took longer and therefore her reduction was much greater. And because channeling ability is tied to the soul (per RJ) when Mierin was transmigrated into the body we know as Cyndane her loss of max power was still present, where as had she died and been reborn in the normal fashion, then her ability might be restored. Same with Moir, I doubt that she can be brought back to her original strength, short of dying and being spun back out by the Wheel.

 

Going to have to disagree. The Finns obviously seem to love draining their victim of the one power (and enjoying the victim's sadness as it happens), and Moiraine/Lanfear can't have been the first Aes Sedai they've done this too. I think they would have learned the limits they could draw from without killing them, so as to keep them sad for longer.

 

After all, what's the point of Moiraine saying that she saw a man come and mention she wasn't the one he was looking for if Lanfear just died due to a mistake by the Finns? Doesn't have much relelvance: it appears at the least that a man came into the Tower looking for Lanfear.

 

 

Lanfear was the strongest female Aes Sedai to ever pass live. You don't think its possible, when presented with a bountiful feast, the finns perhaps ate a little too quickly and ended up with a tummy ache? 40 year old men still make that mistake every thanks giving, in spite of "having done it before"

 

I dont think its possible to think that based solely on the fact that Cyndane is only LITTLE bit weaker than Lanfear. Her death definitely has to deal with Moridin in my mind. I like the idea of him coming to get her, killing her, then getting out of there so that the DO can revive her.

[Lacanos]

 

I prefer the idea that the Finns killed Lanfear by draining her to quickly, similar to the way that one can kill yourself or burn themselves out by drawing too much. That they sucked so much OP through her that it killed her, but that act reduced the amount of OP strength that was tied to her soul to begin with (similar to Moiraine's weakening). Moir's draining took longer and therefore her reduction was much greater. And because channeling ability is tied to the soul (per RJ) when Mierin was transmigrated into the body we know as Cyndane her loss of max power was still present, where as had she died and been reborn in the normal fashion, then her ability might be restored. Same with Moir, I doubt that she can be brought back to her original strength, short of dying and being spun back out by the Wheel.

 

Going to have to disagree. The Finns obviously seem to love draining their victim of the one power (and enjoying the victim's sadness as it happens), and Moiraine/Lanfear can't have been the first Aes Sedai they've done this too. I think they would have learned the limits they could draw from without killing them, so as to keep them sad for longer.

 

After all, what's the point of Moiraine saying that she saw a man come and mention she wasn't the one he was looking for if Lanfear just died due to a mistake by the Finns? Doesn't have much relelvance: it appears at the least that a man came into the Tower looking for Lanfear.

 

 

Lanfear was the strongest female Aes Sedai to ever pass live. You don't think its possible, when presented with a bountiful feast, the finns perhaps ate a little too quickly and ended up with a tummy ache? 40 year old men still make that mistake every thanks giving, in spite of "having done it before"

 

I dont think its possible to think that based solely on the fact that Cyndane is only LITTLE bit weaker than Lanfear. Her death definitely has to deal with Moridin in my mind. I like the idea of him coming to get her, killing her, then getting out of there so that the DO can revive her.

I buy the slayer theory a lot more; I don't see why the Finns wouldn't simply take Moridin also if they were able/allowed to take Lanfear.

[Sharaman]

 

I prefer the idea that the Finns killed Lanfear by draining her to quickly, similar to the way that one can kill yourself or burn themselves out by drawing too much. That they sucked so much OP through her that it killed her, but that act reduced the amount of OP strength that was tied to her soul to begin with (similar to Moiraine's weakening). Moir's draining took longer and therefore her reduction was much greater. And because channeling ability is tied to the soul (per RJ) when Mierin was transmigrated into the body we know as Cyndane her loss of max power was still present, where as had she died and been reborn in the normal fashion, then her ability might be restored. Same with Moir, I doubt that she can be brought back to her original strength, short of dying and being spun back out by the Wheel.

 

Going to have to disagree. The Finns obviously seem to love draining their victim of the one power (and enjoying the victim's sadness as it happens), and Moiraine/Lanfear can't have been the first Aes Sedai they've done this too. I think they would have learned the limits they could draw from without killing them, so as to keep them sad for longer.

 

After all, what's the point of Moiraine saying that she saw a man come and mention she wasn't the one he was looking for if Lanfear just died due to a mistake by the Finns? Doesn't have much relelvance: it appears at the least that a man came into the Tower looking for Lanfear.

 

 

Lanfear was the strongest female Aes Sedai to ever pass live. You don't think its possible, when presented with a bountiful feast, the finns perhaps ate a little too quickly and ended up with a tummy ache? 40 year old men still make that mistake every thanks giving, in spite of "having done it before"

 

I dont think its possible to think that based solely on the fact that Cyndane is only LITTLE bit weaker than Lanfear. Her death definitely has to deal with Moridin in my mind. I like the idea of him coming to get her, killing her, then getting out of there so that the DO can revive her.

I buy the slayer theory a lot more; I don't see why the Finns wouldn't simply take Moridin also if they were able/allowed to take Lanfear.

 

Slayer can't channel, and Finnland is outside TAR. He would be defenceless.

Moridin can channel True Power - we have no reason to believe the Finns can handle TP at all.

[Declan]

Exactly my point. Why would Slayer be able to do ANYTHING in Finnland? Moridin on the other hand can channel TP and is very smart. So even if it came down to bargaining I dont think that Moridin would make a mistake given that it is widely known that he was a leading thinker back in the AoL.