Discuss The Forsaken

[Jeangray]

At a signing or in a Question of the Week, Jordan said that Aginor was something like a chip designer dropped into the sixteen century. He'd have to invent the science to invent the tools to make the tools to make the ugly, awful, twisted Shadow creatures.

 

That would have been way more convincing, if we didn't see that Lighsiders never need any tools when they want to do something amazing with OP. Not only don't they need any tools, but they don't need any understanding either. It's all instinctive, wouldn't you know.

 

I never liked that - sure, it provided shortcuts, but those shortcuts then felt quite cheap when anybody other than Rand was concerned. I never understood why RJ thought that his main characters aversion to learning something properly was endearing.

And of course it completely undermines the whole basis for AoL, when channeling was supposedly a science.

[didymos]

And of course it completely undermines the whole basis for AoL, when channeling was supposedly a science.

 

Yeah, it was. And like modern science, it required tons of people and infrastructure to accomplish a lot of it.

[nolirion]

Can Morridin be turn to the light ?

[Duskfire]

Can Morridin be turn to the light ?

 

i think its hypothetical possible. His reasons for joining the Shadow were based on beliefs and ideals; if Rand was able to convince him those beliefs were false, it would definetly shake him up a bit. However, I don't think it'll happen.

 

Well, I'm hoping we will still get a lot of D as a real threat in MoL, but I don't see how we really can, what with Shaidar Haran, Moridin, Fain, and of course the Dark One all to be resolved.

 

That's why I was so surprised his moment of glory wasn't ToM. I would have put money on him being here in a major way.

 

True, but it probably just means for Demandred to make a splash he has to against one of the other characters - Mat is one who gets mentioned alot as a possible foe to Demandred. Rand does have too much on his plate, unless of course something unexpected happens and Moridin is killed by someone else (which is always possible.)

 

I still have hope for Demandred. But it will have to be something truly sensational. You dont keep something like this a mystery without making a big bang.

[WhiskyJack]

Can Morridin be turn to the light ?

 

 

Anakin did.

[Tom Sawyer]

I always see Demandred as George out of Seinfeld. Sitting around not doing much, pretending he's up to date his plans and he hasn't a clue what is going on.

I can picture Moridin rushing in and asking 'Hey man what are you doing? The last battle has started. Where's your army? I thought you were preparing for war!'. And his response would be like, 'The last what now? Army? Is that what I was meant to be doing?'. And then Moridin kicks the chair he was leaninmg back on out from under him and he dies.

 

"THIS WAS SUPPOSED TO BE THE SUMMER OF DEMANDRED!!!!!!!!"

 

[Tom Sawyer]

 

I think this is the key. The guy was introduced back in book 6 as a Big Bad. He was a nasty guy out there doing something huge and was going to be one hell of an enemy. That was book 6. We're now through book 13 and he still hasn't gotten around to doing it. There's only one book left and there's an even Bigger Bad around who's going to be the focal point of it and a number of other Big Bads who also need to get their scenes in, so whatever Demandred ends up being up to, it's going to be a truncated side plot which will have a lot of problems living up to the hype that's been built up about the guy. There's just been too much smoke and not enough fire with the man.

 

Well, I'm hoping we will still get a lot of D as a real threat in MoL, but I don't see how we really can, what with Shaidar Haran, Moridin, Fain, and of course the Dark One all to be resolved.

 

That's why I was so surprised his moment of glory wasn't ToM. I would have put money on him being here in a major way.

 

Well, how much of a threat could he really be and how much time can really be devoted to him?

 

As you said, there is still Moridin, Fain and Tuon out there who are major threats and are bad guys who are far more central to the storyline than Demandred is, not to mention the actual Dark One. They have to be dealt with in a non-truncated manner. Moghidien, Lanfear, Graendal and Shadar Haran need some screentime as well, the Logain-vs-Taim battle is still upcoming and the bulk of the story is going to be focused on what the good guys are doing and not what the bad guys are doing - not to mention that there's all the time which neesd to be devoted to the general soldiers-fighting-Trollocs part. With one book left and all the plotlines to wrap up, there's just not a lot of space left for Demandred.

 

I really can't see how he'd be able to get anything more than a Rahvin-type scene where he's in one big fight and then dies. While that can be a cool scene, it's not a scene that changes him from being a minor and irrelevant character to an important part of the story. Given the amount of buildup that there's been around the question of what he's doing, I can't see how the reveal won't be a letdown.

[Astus]

So, it turns out that good ol' Ishy has amassed quite a bit of AoL goodies, judging by Graendal's reaction. You'd wonder why they didn't just set Aginor to working with that stuff, or if not, then participating in the Trolloc creating centers in the Blight. Figuring out ways to improve them or perhaps alter then in whatever way. You know, evil scientist stuff and not the useless douchebag agenda. The dude actually creeped me out when he first showed up. I suppose it helped that at the point I still held the Forsaken in such a high view (as bad guys) but still.

[Lancer]

Am I the only one in thinking that one of the Forsaken (Probably Demandred) is impersonating 1 of the Monarchs of the Borderlanders?? I have been having this idea now for the last 3 or 4 books. We havent seen him and Now w/ the question that was asked of Rand my suspicion is more so. Anyone agree w/ me???

[WhiskyJack]

^^Yep, it's only you.

[Tom Sawyer]

Am I the only one in thinking that one of the Forsaken (Probably Demandred) is impersonating 1 of the Monarchs of the Borderlanders?? I have been having this idea now for the last 3 or 4 books. We havent seen him and Now w/ the question that was asked of Rand my suspicion is more so. Anyone agree w/ me???

 

I wish. It looks to me like the whole Borderlander thing was as pointless and lame as it appeared to be. If it were a trap by one of the Forsaken, I think we'd have seen some kind of trap aspect associated with it.

[Kidicaris]

It occurs to me how strange it is that the Forsaken could not make or copy (ter)angreal. I guess it's lucky for our heroes that they could not, but it's convenient too.

 

I am not exactly sure how Talents work, or the nature of the (ter)angreal, so maybe expecting them to know the basics might be asking too much. I mean, we might not know how to produce a Ming vase, but I can surely make a passable ashtray right? I digress, maybe those items of Power are closer to cars than they are pottery :). I surely could not make a car, even though I can get a speeding ticket driving one.

[Sharaman]

It occurs to me how strange it is that the Forsaken could not make or copy (ter)angreal. I guess it's lucky for our heroes that they could not, but it's convenient too.

 

I am not exactly sure how Talents work, or the nature of the (ter)angreal, so maybe expecting them to know the basics might be asking too much. I mean, we might not know how to produce a Ming vase, but I can surely make a passable ashtray right? I digress, maybe those items of Power are closer to cars than they are pottery :). I surely could not make a car, even though I can get a speeding ticket driving one.

We know what the Forsaken did before they turned to GLoD.

Lanfear - researcher in the OP and TAR, hottest of the hot, power-monger.

Ishy - Philosopher,

Aginor - bioscientist

Belal - Lawyer, swordsman

Demandred - politician, soldier

Sammael - athlete, soldier

Balthamiel - anthropologist

Mesaana - educationist

Asmodean - musician

Moghedien - investment councillor

Graendal - shrink

Semirhage - physician

Rahvin - womaniser

 

These are all full-time professions. No reason why any of them would have dabbled in ter'angreal making. It was a stroke of luck that Moggy had a clue about making cuen'dillar.

FWIW, quite a lot of the stuff that AoL used would also have required advanced technology - funny glass columns with bizarre properties, weird metallic alloys, sound-recorders, kindles, stasis boxes. Even if they know how to do it in principle and they have some Talent, it would be impossible to reproduce these without a major industrial backup.

The simple stuff like the domination band, they could reproduce even with 3rd Age tech.

I'm sure foxhead medallion copies might suddenly appear somewhere at TG

[Kidicaris]

It occurs to me how strange it is that the Forsaken could not make or copy (ter)angreal. I guess it's lucky for our heroes that they could not, but it's convenient too.

 

I am not exactly sure how Talents work, or the nature of the (ter)angreal, so maybe expecting them to know the basics might be asking too much. I mean, we might not know how to produce a Ming vase, but I can surely make a passable ashtray right? I digress, maybe those items of Power are closer to cars than they are pottery :). I surely could not make a car, even though I can get a speeding ticket driving one.

We know what the Forsaken did before they turned to GLoD.

Lanfear - researcher in the OP and TAR, hottest of the hot, power-monger.

Ishy - Philosopher,

Aginor - bioscientist

Belal - Lawyer, swordsman

Demandred - politician, soldier

Sammael - athlete, soldier

Balthamiel - anthropologist

Mesaana - educationist

Asmodean - musician

Moghedien - investment councillor

Graendal - shrink

Semirhage - physician

Rahvin - womaniser

 

These are all full-time professions. No reason why any of them would have dabbled in ter'angreal making. It was a stroke of luck that Moggy had a clue about making cuen'dillar.

FWIW, quite a lot of the stuff that AoL used would also have required advanced technology - funny glass columns with bizarre properties, weird metallic alloys, sound-recorders, kindles, stasis boxes. Even if they know how to do it in principle and they have some Talent, it would be impossible to reproduce these without a major industrial backup.

The simple stuff like the domination band, they could reproduce even with 3rd Age tech.

I'm sure foxhead medallion copies might suddenly appear somewhere at TG

 

Of course I didn't expect Mogi to be sporting her flashy new convertible Sho'wing. But that simple stuff you mention would have been incredibly useful in these archaic times for the Forsaken. I'll just accept that it so happens that the 13 surviving Forsaken just didn't have any Talent for, or useful enough knowledge of (ter)angreal to create/copy anything useful.

 

I did find it funny that you considered Raavin's full time profession, womanizer. I imagine him as a star on the AoL equivalent of Jersey Shore.

 

I wonder how useful Mogi found investment councilor to be once she turned to the Shadow. Luckily she had some skill in TAR and managed a kickass network of spies. I find it odd that Mogi was easier to fight in TAR than Mesaana was, but I guess there can be no denying Nyneave's strength of will either. A forum poster reminded me how Nyneave actually failed her test to become Acccepted, but WILLED the doorway to reappear, then also broke the rules in her Aes Sedai testing, through willpower too.

[Cyf]

In relation to the ter'angrael and angreal: at least for angreal, I think you need both males and females to create one. Rand's thoughts pretty much nailed it for me in Winter's Heart. An angreal augments your power, much like a lens does light. Yet, his fear was if he used saidin for the funnel, it'd leech out. In much the same way, a saidin weave probably wouldn't 'lens' properly for Saidin, making it seep out and leaving you with no boost or even a loss. Same with saidar and saidar.

 

Can you imagine Forsaken /actually/ trusting each other enough to link and work together? I can't. :)

[Guest starwxrwx]

I have to add I was disappointed we didn't get to see what Demandred was up to in ToM. Or did we?

 

Has it been ruled out that he is involved in the Black Tower? Surely that constitutes an army being gathered. I know he is not Taim, but could he not be one of those around Taim only showing up 'on screen' in ToM (has he been confirmed to have been seen as an alter-ego yet? At end of tGS he hadn't IIRC)? I thought maybe the Asha'man who had the "wrong" laugh might be Demandred impersonating, though from reading through the forums it seems the guy was simply 13x13'd..

[Elan Tedronai]

what a bunch of useless tools the chosen are. I refuse to believe these guys were the same guys that gave lews therin and co alot of headache in the war of power.

 

completely inept.

[Graendal probably did it]

Am I the only one in thinking that one of the Forsaken (Probably Demandred) is impersonating 1 of the Monarchs of the Borderlanders?? I have been having this idea now for the last 3 or 4 books. We havent seen him and Now w/ the question that was asked of Rand my suspicion is more so. Anyone agree w/ me???

 

I often thought that over the years of reading the wheel of time, it is a mystery why the borderlanders left their respective nations and left the blight border unguarded. But with TOM it is made apparent that Rand would be able to spot darkfriends, and forsaken, but in the meeting he had with them, he didn't. It's all a little odd still, they say they went south to fulfill a prophecy to find the Dragon reborn, but it seems like a plot device to me to leave the blight border undefended.

 

I personally think that Demandred has been hanging out in Shoyol Ghul preparing for Tarmon Gaidon. If he had done anything else, we would have heard about it by now. Like others have stated it's not like Brandon is short of plotlines to fill the last book. Perhaps some entanglement with the black tower is the only plausible reason for his omission. Although of course RJ has consistently said over the years Taim is not Demandred.

[decrepid dragon]

what a bunch of useless tools the chosen are. I refuse to believe these guys were the same guys that gave lews therin and co alot of headache in the war of power.

 

completely inept.

 

I am pretty sure there were a lot more chosen in the war of power. And of course Stalin and Hitler have been big players in the world, but get them on there own and, well... Not so much hot stuff. Circumstance always has to favour people in some ways to get places. They took over entire countries as well, not exactly pathetic, big speed bump for the Dragon if nothing else. Like dwn said earlier.

 

On another note I know it has been said before, by me included, but the forsaken seem to be a giant neon sign saying 'look at me'. They seemed to be the Big Thing on the path to fighting the DO in the beginning, Rand first had to use TEOTW to kill one, and other forsaken were hard. Then Sammael and Graendel were shown to be human, and Rand began to find them easier to fight, and I could feel myself thinking "This is it, he's going to be ready to fight the Dark One" It seemed like the classic tale hero build up. And then BAM! Its revealed that Moridin helped kill Sammael and the DO gave the true power to Rand to kill Semhirage just to get him a little bit closer to betraying the light. On top of that Shaidar Harran can literally rape the forsaken when he wants to and Moridin thinks of them all as fools while only he knows what is going to happen (admittedly this happens over several books). Its like the DO slapping the person reading in the face with a wet fish and saying "You think Rand will be able to fight ME? Just cause he beat a few of my overglorified servants? You ain't seen nothing yet." I really like this way of writing, it shows that everyone else is just a side note when compared to the DO. And of course the forsaken never co-operate. If even 3 had been there to help Sammael or Rahvin there goes hope of light side. Even Nynave with controlled Moghedien would have been rolled along with Rand if Mesaana, Semhirage and Damandred had jumped out of the shadows to help in the Rahvin fight.

 

And they seem evil enough to me, people can be evil without dripping blackness and having unfathomable motives that can only be described as 'a painful darkness' or some such. But I must admit they have gotten a bit lame in the last book. Graendel was ok until she kept trying to manipulate everything from the Shadows (that only goes so far), and EGWENE beat a forsaken? When she started off with an adam on her? Messaana = pathetic as Useless and Pointless (Epic post Bob T Dwarf). Only Moridin remains truly kick-ass, sitting back and watching like an evil overlord should, punishing his own servants (A true sign of evil is counter-productivity and inefficiency, as it leads to chaos ). And Damendred is still cool cause he is doing this all for revenge and ragefullness.

 

That was a long speil, but I feel better now

[Bob T Dwarf]

Although of course RJ has consistently said over the years Taim is not Demandred.

 

What he actually said was, "Demandred has never posed as Mazrim Taim."

 

There is a semantic difference between that statement and saying, "Demandred is not Mazrim Taim."

 

Whether that difference is significant remains to be seen.

 

 

 

Thank you, decrepid dragon. While I don't always succeed, I DO try.

[decrepid dragon]

Although of course RJ has consistently said over the years Taim is not Demandred.

 

What he actually said was, "Demandred has never posed as Mazrim Taim."

 

There is a semantic difference between that statement and saying, "Demandred is not Mazrim Taim."

 

Whether that difference is significant remains to be seen.

 

LOL, if that was actually a significant difference so many people would hate RJ for a while.

[Owayn The Traveller]

I always see Demandred as George out of Seinfeld. Sitting around not doing much, pretending he's up to date his plans and he hasn't a clue what is going on.

I can picture Moridin rushing in and asking 'Hey man what are you doing? The last battle has started. Where's your army? I thought you were preparing for war!'. And his response would be like, 'The last what now? Army? Is that what I was meant to be doing?'. And then Moridin kicks the chair he was leaninmg back on out from under him and he dies.

 

"THIS WAS SUPPOSED TO BE THE SUMMER OF DEMANDRED!!!!!!!!"

 

 

LOL. So if George is Demandred who is Kramer or more imortantly who is Newman?

[Bob T Dwarf]

I always see Demandred as George out of Seinfeld. Sitting around not doing much, pretending he's up to date his plans and he hasn't a clue what is going on.

I can picture Moridin rushing in and asking 'Hey man what are you doing? The last battle has started. Where's your army? I thought you were preparing for war!'. And his response would be like, 'The last what now? Army? Is that what I was meant to be doing?'. And then Moridin kicks the chair he was leaninmg back on out from under him and he dies.

 

"THIS WAS SUPPOSED TO BE THE SUMMER OF DEMANDRED!!!!!!!!"

 

 

LOL. So if George is Demandred who is Kramer or more imortantly who is Newman?

 

Kramer is Ba'alzamon. Newman is probably Sammael, he seems to be pretty angry most of the time. I see Elaine as more a Lanfear than any of the other female Forsaken.

 

That, of course leaves Jerry, who is decidedly not Rand. Rahyvin? Asmodean? Not cool enough to be Bel'al. There have been some seamy stories about ole Jer, maybe Balthamel.

[rambling]

 

I wish. It looks to me like the whole Borderlander thing was as pointless and lame as it appeared to be. If it were a trap by one of the Forsaken, I think we'd have seen some kind of trap aspect associated with it.

 

Having the Borderlanders down south is very useful for the DO, they can't defend their kingdom from Far Madding.

Still lame though, I agree

[Owayn The Traveller]

I always see Demandred as George out of Seinfeld. Sitting around not doing much, pretending he's up to date his plans and he hasn't a clue what is going on.

I can picture Moridin rushing in and asking 'Hey man what are you doing? The last battle has started. Where's your army? I thought you were preparing for war!'. And his response would be like, 'The last what now? Army? Is that what I was meant to be doing?'. And then Moridin kicks the chair he was leaninmg back on out from under him and he dies.

 

"THIS WAS SUPPOSED TO BE THE SUMMER OF DEMANDRED!!!!!!!!"

 

 

LOL. So if George is Demandred who is Kramer or more imortantly who is Newman?

 

Kramer is Ba'alzamon. Newman is probably Sammael, he seems to be pretty angry most of the time. I see Elaine as more a Lanfear than any of the other female Forsaken.

 

That, of course leaves Jerry, who is decidedly not Rand. Rahyvin? Asmodean? Not cool enough to be Bel'al. There have been some seamy stories about ole Jer, maybe Balthamel.

 

Don't know about all them Bob. I'll have to go watch a few seasons to get the feel of the characters and then re read the wheel of time before I can give my choices. See ya in a couple of months.