Elayne's Arc

[babuada]

Mr. Ares - I completely agree with everything you said.

However as I posted elsewhere the difference between "So what if Egwene is an asshole, so is Rand !" is that we have spent entire books and storylines grinding through the fact that Rand is making a mistake. Every single character in every single book agonizes about how he is becoming too hard, too stuck up, too out of touch etc. etc. etc.

More than that, we have gone down the Darth Rand path and barely returned - we saw that the entire countries of Arad Doman and Saldea were nearly destroyed due to his errors in judgment and he had to go fix them.

We had to sit through four people *physically* slap him to the ground, to his knees in front of his ostensible followers, to check if he was too arrogant or not, and then received a half-assed fortelling to justify it.

Leave aside Everywoman Min, whose personal mission of "keeping him grounded" is accomplished in large part by continuously reminding him that he started out as a sheepherder.

 

And given the situation in the Black Tower, the grand world tour of "I'm so sorry, I was wrong" Rand isn't over yet.

 

Compare this to what we have in Egwene where her behavior is continuously rewarded by people smarter (yes smarter), older, more experienced, what have you - always realizing that she is doing the right thing.

It's always "Oh yes, you are Teh Mother, of course we must defer to you, in order to maintain the dignity of your station ! And b.t.w. you were right about everything else as well !" Is the dignity of her station really more important than his ?

Would Elayne slap her in the face to check if she was reasonable enough to listen to another monarch ?

Can you *imagine* what would happen if Gawyn were to suddenly say "Hey there milkmaid, what gives ?"

 

The difference between the two of them is that Rand is continuously called on his shit, and Egwene isn't. Simple as that.

Good that he was. Otherwise WoT wouldn't have got back the hero needed. The good thing is you can see all the good people at work trying hard to get him back to Light side. They never left his side and never stopped trying. The other thing is, he was always trying to do the best for others, his reasoning was faulty, but he tried his best. Egg on the otherhand tries to do only whatever is best for her. From book one this selfish characteristic is the most prominant one. She made a perfect WT queen because this is kind of their primary requirement.

[Mr Ares]

No, we don't have that. We have Rand putting forward a plan to open the Bore, but not to seal it afterwards, and Egwene with a plan to stop him from opening the Bore. No-one has yet put forward a plan to seal the Bore. It's possible Rand has one, or maybe he just plans to see how things go. But he didn't share his plans with us, or with Egwene - from her point of view, she sees Rand's actions as reckless, and he refuses to even elaborate on why he is doing them. She has bloody good reason to oppose him, and I can't help but hope that his machinations in this regard blow up in his face.

If times are desperate (and I hope you agree that Egwene should see them as desperate) and you need a plan on how to save the world (and I hope you agree that she should realize they need some plan) and you think that the only plan on the table is boneheaded (which we agree that she thinks), then why in the Light do you not start working IMMEDIATELY with all your effort to come up with an alternative? That is all I am faulting her for. Reality is ending and she is not coming up with a constructive way to help it. She is trying to stop Rand, which is fine, but the only real effective way to stop him would be to have an alternative. Especially when Nynaeve says that his reasoning makes some sense, she should have realized that she needed to understand/fix the problem, not just reflexively oppose rand because she does not understand his reasoning.

 

Which would be more effective at stopping things?

 

"Rand you can't break the seals because you are a woolhead and I will continually sniff at you. And, I brought all of your armies here so they can...not really sure what they can do...but they sure look pretty out there..."

 

or

 

"Rand, you can't break the seals...we've had the whites and browns researching this nonstop and they say that the moment the seals are broken, you will see a massive outrush of darkness that you need to prepare for by doing the following...."

 

Of course it should be a high priority. Just because I am currently focusing more on Rand's mistakes and behaviour, doesn't mean Egwene is without flaw in this. As I said, no-one has put forward a plan to seal the Bore so far. That's a pretty big thing to ignore. I do hope that at the FoM, someone does call her on her failure in this regard. Mistakes have been made on both sides, I'd say.

I am not saying Rand did the best thing, just that Egwene is abrogating her responsibility to try to save the *world* (not the Tower, the world) which is what her position as the Amyrlin seat should call on her to focus on. Rand does not have a fully fleshed out plan by any means, but is going on the general guidance of herid fel and the Aelfinn, and has tasked Min to try to figure out the details. It's not close to enough, but he is attempting to solve the problem.

It appears we are, more or less, on the same page, but focusing on different things - she is failing to come up with a plan for TG, he is needlessly antagonsing her while his own plan is a preliminary step. He's making an attempt, but not enough, she's not even bothering - at least, given the information we have.

 

 

Well, she didn't say anything about making him a servant, that I can recall. Would you care to support that?

Doesn't a high lord serve the QUEEN.

So do ordinary subjects, so do servants. She mad him a lord, not a servant.

 

The answer is no. She wanted to trust him.

Have you read the book?

Yes. And I can quote it. For example, this from ToM 3: "To me, he must be Rand. Because Rand can be trusted." So, that would be the book supporting me then.

This is after she went under influence. The change in her attitude is proof that she was influenced.

Ta'veren is rarely a good argument, as it can only cause to happen that which might still have happened with no ta'veren - it makes things more likely, it can't make the impossible happen. So any change in attitude is one that can happen even if Rand wasn't ta'veren. As it is, all the changes in Egwene's attitude throughout that conversation can be put down to the conversation - she went into a conversation with a Rand she hadn't seen for a long time, who had changed a lot, and during the course of it she was able to judge him for herself, see the man he now was. Ta'veren might play a part, but it isn't needed.

 

TG is something that directly affects everyone, including her, so faced with a planning session for TG she isn't likely to sit it out.

But that is exactly what she did.

No, it isn't, as she went to the FoM, where this meeting was supposed to be. And she did use her time to plan.

For TG?

For stopping Rand freeing Shai'tan.

 

And yet: "Aybara and his force could be a spark that sends us all up like a firework." ToM56. It is his arrival, setting up camp away from others, that has the potential to exacerbate an already dangerous situation. Always going to be a dangerous situation, but things have been made worse.

Really! Poor Egg! Afterall it is her fault that they are not all at The Perin's side.

No, it's Rand's. After all, he was the one who decided to antagonise Egwene, he was the one who manipulated her into bringing armies to oppose him. You can't have it both ways. If he used her to get the armies there he must stand by the consequences.

 

So Rand isn't the Dragon Reborn now? And it being his seat means precisely that he is lord.

But Elayne did not give it to Rand. She gave it to DR.

...But Rand is the Dragon Reborn.

And Elayne wants the Dragon Reborn as servant.

You just changed your argument. From one that didn't make sense to a completely different one that doesn't make sense.

 

No. Many of them are allied to the Dragon, but Illian and Tear are both ruled by him. There is a difference.

Nope.

Yup. Ghealdan is Perrin's, not Rand's, Mayene is a willing ally of the Dragon's, as are the Borderlands, and Andor, he had Cairhien but ceded it to Elayne, Far Madding is unaligned, last I checked, and Arad Doman is an ally, as far as I'm aware. They might be on his side, come TG, but he doesn't have the authority to change laws in those nations in the way he did in Tear, for example.

And Borderlands have sworn fealty. Counting all the leaders, only two does not bound themselves to Dragon Reborn.

Fortuona, Alliandre, Egwene, whoever is First Council in Far Madding now, Roedran - none of these have sworn to Rand, that I can recall. Please, provide quotes or references to say otherwise. Elayne is an ally.

 

She asked him why, and he refused to answer. And there is no plan on the table to save the world - breaking the seals is a preliminary step, and Rand did not put forward what he will do after that. On the contrary, he basically admits he doesn't know how: "I believe that saidin and saidar must both be used. I don't have the answers yet." As for what she said on hearing his plan: "We must talk about this. Plan."

She asked him why? When?

I quoted it.

You mean "We must talk about this. Plan." LOL. That is just an WT word for detaining Dragon Reborn.

But by this time she was already caught up inhis ta'veren web, according to you - it's after she decided she could trust him. Again, you can't have it both ways.

The word "why" is small and easy to ask.

But there are other ways of saying the same thing. If they are talking about him breaking the seals, surely why he wants to do it is implied? After all, it helps to understand why someone wants to do something if you are trying to talk them out of it.

 

Surely you need a plan before you can have an alternative?

A plan, however half baked, is still a plan and Rand gave one to Egg. Egg didn't even try to find an alternative. Instead she was busy in power politics.

Rand did not put forward a plan. You must clear the rubble before you can rebuild. But clearing the rubble is not rebuilding. Rand announced his plan to clear the rubble, but has not put one forward for rebuilding. Not for closing the Bore. Not for winning TG. That plan is one that would free Shai'tan, therefore her plan was to stop him doing that - that's a little different from power politics.

[Aquarius]

Rand did not put forward a plan. You must clear the rubble before you can rebuild. But clearing the rubble is not rebuilding. Rand announced his plan to clear the rubble, but has not put one forward for rebuilding. Not for closing the Bore. Not for winning TG. That plan is one that would free Shai'tan, therefore her plan was to stop him doing that - that's a little different from power politics.

Everybody knows the rubble has to be cleared.

Nobody knows how to rebuild.

 

The risk is not in actually clearing the rubble, it's in clearing the rubble without a plan to rebuild. in that respect Egg is right to be caution. She has no insight on just how to rebuild, but clearing the rubble is nonetheless fearfull.

The problem here might lie in Rand not actually saying "I don't have a plan to rebuild". They will probably figure this out in time, but probably not before the rubble is cleared, or maybe they will figure this out wrong, clear the rubble, realise their mistake, cause 1 milion soldier death, THEN figure out the right way to do it.

Anyway, Rnad is wrong not to say so clearly, and Egg is wrong not 1) understand it, 2)trust him anyway.

[blazetheearth]

Soooo....... Back to Elayne, anybody else find it odd that she didn't take a bath in ToM?

[Fel]

Actually, I did notice and was quite happy that the pace for Elayne picked up quite considerably vs previous books.

 

I may have hated the direction her character went, but at least she went that way fairly quickly. In previous books, he decision to take the throne of Cairhein would have taken about 5 chapters of her bathing, dressing, doing her hair, eating porridge, throwing a tantrum, putting on formal shoes, re-doing her hair, walking to the travelling grounds, straightening her jewelry, noticing her guards unusual armor, generally screeching at Birgitte, and getting angry at Rand for getting her pregnant.

 

At least in this book, we got this useless plotline wrapped up in one or 2 chapters instead so I have fewer pages to skip over on my re-reads.

[David Selig]

Soooo....... Back to Elayne, anybody else find it odd that she didn't take a bath in ToM?

Leigh Butler's reread of the series on Tor's site is just about to reach the chapter in CoT with Elayne's infamous bath scene, so if you missed such scenes much, be sure to check it out tonight or the next few days, when the update should be posted. ;)

 

Doesn't a high lord serve the QUEEN.

In this case no, since the High Lord happen to be the ruler of two other countries and will be a Lord in Andor only on paper anyway.

[Kierkegaurdian]

Actually, I did notice and was quite happy that the pace for Elayne picked up quite considerably vs previous books.

 

I may have hated the direction her character went, but at least she went that way fairly quickly. In previous books, he decision to take the throne of Cairhein would have taken about 5 chapters of her bathing, dressing, doing her hair, eating porridge, throwing a tantrum, putting on formal shoes, re-doing her hair, walking to the travelling grounds, straightening her jewelry, noticing her guards unusual armor, generally screeching at Birgitte, and getting angry at Rand for getting her pregnant.

 

At least in this book, we got this useless plotline wrapped up in one or 2 chapters instead so I have fewer pages to skip over on my re-reads.

 

 

Lol, too true. Honestly, I still felt she had too much screen time in ToM. I know that it would be nice to see loose ends tied up (the implication from waaaaaay back that Elayne would rule Cairhien), but honestly, TG is right around the corner. Why all the time and page-space spent on what the Carihienians might do in ten years? Bah. Nynaeve and Aviendha are the lady-folk's saving grace this late in the series. As awesome as Elayne and Egwene have been of late, it is infuriating that they are spending so much more time on internal and political matters than the Last Friggin' Battle.

[Elan Tedronai]

elayne's just a waste of space at this point. only arc in the book where i sometimes skip a few pages.

[bysomy]

I'm going to get mad if she doesn't side with Rand at FoM. He killed the Forsaken holding Andor and her mother, basicly giving her Andor, gave her Cairhien, a whole other country she didn't deserve for no apparent reason(Dobrane anyone?),and they are emotionally involved. (he is Ta'avern, if it doesn't happen, it has no posibility of ever happening.) Anyway, MAKE HIM A NEW HAND ALREADY!!! And you'd think Birgitte would be doing something useful too.

[babuada]

Actually, I did notice and was quite happy that the pace for Elayne picked up quite considerably vs previous books.

 

I may have hated the direction her character went, but at least she went that way fairly quickly. In previous books, he decision to take the throne of Cairhein would have taken about 5 chapters of her bathing, dressing, doing her hair, eating porridge, throwing a tantrum, putting on formal shoes, re-doing her hair, walking to the travelling grounds, straightening her jewelry, noticing her guards unusual armor, generally screeching at Birgitte, and getting angry at Rand for getting her pregnant.

 

At least in this book, we got this useless plotline wrapped up in one or 2 chapters instead so I have fewer pages to skip over on my re-reads.

Completely agree. Now without any companion, it is probably hard to put anything during her bathing time to push the plotline al all.

[babuada]

I'm going to get mad if she doesn't side with Rand at FoM. He killed the Forsaken holding Andor and her mother, basicly giving her Andor, gave her Cairhien, a whole other country she didn't deserve for no apparent reason(Dobrane anyone?),and they are emotionally involved. (he is Ta'avern, if it doesn't happen, it has no posibility of ever happening.) Anyway, MAKE HIM A NEW HAND ALREADY!!! And you'd think Birgitte would be doing something useful too.

I can assure you that she would stand against Rand.

[blazetheearth]

Soooo....... Back to Elayne, anybody else find it odd that she didn't take a bath in ToM?

Leigh Butler's reread of the series on Tor's site is just about to reach the chapter in CoT with Elayne's infamous bath scene, so if you missed such scenes much, be sure to check it out tonight or the next few days, when the update should be posted. ;)

 

 

Actually, it was just a comment to get the thread back on Elayne, instead of Eggy and the WT. They have their own threads after all. The only reason I picked baths was because of Luckers comment in post #1.

 

I thought about making a "Bela" comment instead, but I have noticed that some people do not like to have conversations diverted by Bela.

[babuada]

Soooo....... Back to Elayne, anybody else find it odd that she didn't take a bath in ToM?

Leigh Butler's reread of the series on Tor's site is just about to reach the chapter in CoT with Elayne's infamous bath scene, so if you missed such scenes much, be sure to check it out tonight or the next few days, when the update should be posted. ;)

 

 

Actually, it was just a comment to get the thread back on Elayne, instead of Eggy and the WT. They have their own threads after all. The only reason I picked baths was because of Luckers comment in post #1.

 

I thought about making a "Bela" comment instead, but I have noticed that some people do not like to have conversations diverted by Bela.

Sorry for diverting off topic, I was one of the person at fault (and I am fighting in those on topic threads too).

I extremely like this Elayne character. The way she is developing gives us some interesting insight in WoT world and people.

[kristineaskada]

Yes, you're right. Her only thought these days is 'how can I use her/him/them?'. Including the Kin, the One Power, the dragons, and everything else. I liked Elayne up till this book, but now I really want to see her knocked down. Aes Sedai are Servants of ALL. Not just Andor. This is why I really am opposed to Sisters being Queens, always have been. But I thought Egwene would keep Elayne in check at least. Now it seems Egwene herself is too pre-occupied with reeling in power herself.

 

The 'I can use this' seems to have become a general MO for the few Aes Sedai I actually liked up to this point. I can just hope that Moiraine won't turn out to be that way or I'll have no one but Cadsuane left to admire.

 

Admire Cadsuane?? Please, no!! : )

 

I've always liked Elayne previous to these last two books, she was refreshing with her winsomeness and positivity. But, honestly, I think she was really badly written, especially in ToM. This book made her really look like that dumb blonde bimbo/queen of arrogance stereotype. And she wasn't represented that way before. She was the least overbearing of the three (Nyneave and Egwene being the other two) for the most part. And now, Elayne and Egwene both are insufferably arrogant and power-hungry where Nyneave has grown into her own graciously. I'm actually sad that we haven't seen more of Rand with Aviendha, she's much better than Elayne.

[Ryamano]

About Birgitte:

 

She wore a short sword in this book. In previous books she refused to wear a sword when Elayne suggested it because she knew, from her past lives, that that would cause a distaster somehow.

 

So there are two reasons Birgitte wore a sword in this book:

 

1) She forgot that she wasn't supposed to wear one. She's losing her memories more and more and this is one thing she forgot.

 

2) Brandon Sanderson forgot she wasn't supposed to wear one.

 

I'm going to go with reason # 1. I'm just waiting for the disaster to happen now. Is the Caemlyn invasion going to be it? If so, it's not that directly related to the sword she's wearing. But maybe this works like superstitions do, like breaking mirrors or walking under a ladder.

[capuga]

About Birgitte:

 

She wore a short sword in this book. In previous books she refused to wear a sword when Elayne suggested it because she knew, from her past lives, that that would cause a distaster somehow.

 

So there are two reasons Birgitte wore a sword in this book:

 

1) She forgot that she wasn't supposed to wear one. She's losing her memories more and more and this is one thing she forgot.

 

2) Brandon Sanderson forgot she wasn't supposed to wear one.

 

I'm going to go with reason # 1. I'm just waiting for the disaster to happen now. Is the Caemlyn invasion going to be it? If so, it's not that directly related to the sword she's wearing. But maybe this works like superstitions do, like breaking mirrors or walking under a ladder.

 

Option #3 - A short sword doesn't really count as a sword. Aiel don't use swords either but they carry knives long enough that everyone but an Aiel would consider them short swords.

[Durinax]

About Birgitte:

 

She wore a short sword in this book. In previous books she refused to wear a sword when Elayne suggested it because she knew, from her past lives, that that would cause a distaster somehow.

 

So there are two reasons Birgitte wore a sword in this book:

 

1) She forgot that she wasn't supposed to wear one. She's losing her memories more and more and this is one thing she forgot.

 

2) Brandon Sanderson forgot she wasn't supposed to wear one.

 

I'm going to go with reason # 1. I'm just waiting for the disaster to happen now. Is the Caemlyn invasion going to be it? If so, it's not that directly related to the sword she's wearing. But maybe this works like superstitions do, like breaking mirrors or walking under a ladder.

 

Option #3 - A short sword doesn't really count as a sword. Aiel don't use swords either but they carry knives long enough that everyone but an Aiel would consider them short swords.

its not a sword, its a decorative braid weight/place to tie it too