Elayne's Arc

[babuada]

I love ToM, but unfortunately it made me hate Elayne. I realize she's Queen and all and needs to act the part, but threatening to execute one of the people she knows HAS to be at Tarmon Gaidon or they all lose... that's just stupid.

she knows that how?

She's been around them long enough to know, don't you think? She knows he's Ta'veren. She knows how important Ta'veren are in the last battle. Simple deduction implies the rest even without first hand knowledge of the prophecies or Min's viewings, which I'm pretty sure that she has been exposed to both.

then she may also know that you can lose taveren status, and not be important anymore.

 

so both are possibilities. Or maybe perrins taverenism caused her to say what she did in order to get what perrin wanted.

 

maybe since all 3 taveren are interconnected that since rand has control over his taverenism that maybe all 3 have control over it, and it was the easiest way to get faile off his case

 

I think it's a safe bet that our 3 taverens would remain so until some time after the last battle, which Elayne would also conclude if she were smart.

 

I did consider (and do not doubt) that Perrin's taveren nature was at work during the whole conversation with Elayne, but even so, Elayne still could have doomed their world and she should know better by now who the major (and necessary) players are. No I do not like her any longer.

Moreover, it seems like she came to FoM on Egg's side. She and Egg would be the only ones opposing Rand. She seems to be on the brink of falling off Rand's favor. I fear she and Egg would be left out to play any part at all in TG. So, she can continue to play petty politics as long as she likes. No need to hate her for this.

[Muad Cheade]

I love ToM, but unfortunately it made me hate Elayne. I realize she's Queen and all and needs to act the part, but threatening to execute one of the people she knows HAS to be at Tarmon Gaidon or they all lose... that's just stupid.

Does his ta'avern status absolve him of rebellion or any crime he could commit? In that case, the Whitecloaks were wrong in wanting Perrin to answer for the two Children of the Light he killed.

[Mr Ares]

...He was raised to be High Lord of the Two Rivers. That's exactly what that means.

 

No, he wasn't. Perrin is to be High Lord and the Steward.

This sort of misremembrance isn't helping your case.

 

Elayne hesitated, then nodded."That will be fine. But the other Houses won't like this High Lord business. There'd need to be a way around it..."

"Give the Two Rivers to the Dragon Reborn," Morgase said.

Elayne's eyes lit up. "Yes. That would work. If I gave the area to him to be his seat in Andor..."

 

It is clear that Elayne intends to have Perrin as High Lord. Otherwise the title would go to Rand and his children, while it is clear that this will pass on to Faile's progeny (for whom Elayne bargained for, and sort of secured).

The title will go to Rand and his children. The area is given to Rand, not Perrin. How can Perrin be High Lord if he doesn't actually rule anything?

 

 

An unusual case, perhaps, but not unprecedented in the series or reality.

 

No. It hasn't happened in the series before Elayne.

Rand is the lawful ruler of Tear (the King of Tear is his Steward there), and King of Illian, and car'a'carn of the Aiel.

 

Duke of Normandy becoming King of England - England and France remained separate countries.

 

And would he have admitted that the French king was his king?

Yes. In matters relating to Normandy, he was a vassal of the French King. In matters relating to England, he was King of England and thus stood, more or less, equal. It was one of the reasons for the Hundred Years' War - the then King of England put forward a claim to the French Throne, thus making him a rival claimant, and therefore an equal, not a vassal.

 

I seriously doubt that first statement, seeing as it was before the rise of nationalism. Though if you say so, I'll concede. But if they ever met face to face, in whatever capacities, they would've faced each other off as equals.

In practical terms, that might be true, but not in law. Certain nobles are sworn to the King of England, the Duke of Normandy is sworn to the French King, but even though those positions are embodied in the same man, they are different positions. This allowed William to extend his power and authority, without simply making himself a more powerful vassal. The Duke of Normandy still has to kneel and swear fealty. The King of England doesn't, so he might be forced to kneel when acting in one capacity, but not when acting in the other.

 

Rand is the lawful ruler of Tear (the King of Tear is his Steward there), and King of Illian, and car'a'carn of the Aiel.

 

Rand was the ruler of Tear, and of Cairhien (as the High Seats of the houses of both swore fealty to him.) But he had no title other than that of the Lord Dragon, so my statement still stands. Elayne's is a special case, and is unprecedented. Being the Car'acarn means diddly squat to the nobles, since to them the Aiel are not a nation.

No, your statement does not stand, because Rand is recognised as Overlord of Tear. That Tear is his, not merely an ally like Andor or Mayene, and now Cairhien. Tear recognises that their supreme ruler is not their king, but the Lord Dragon. Andor recognises that their supreme ruler is their Queen.

 

Elayne is not Rand's Queen. Which was the point I was trying to make. I can see why you think Rand is Andoran, which was not what was being discussed. Elayne has no authority over Rand just because he was born in Andor. Not anymore. Once he was crowned King of Illian, he became her equal.

In some respects, they are, in others he is her inferior, in yet other he is her superior. He is an Andoran citizen (now Lord), thus under her in Andoran law. He is a foreign ruler (consequently, he stands equal to her on the international stage), and he is the Dragon Reborn (and as saviour of humanity, has a role that supercedes any monarch). These three things are not mutually exclusive. True, he is not an ordinary citizen of Andor. But, as an Andoran, and a Andoran Lord, she is his queen. Of course, being High Lord of Andor doesn't put any responsibilities on him unless and until he returns to claim his seat - Perrin, as his Steward, is in charge.

 

There is no situation in which he is not all three. Therefore his obvious superiority will always take precedence. Which is amply illustrated throughout the books.

While Rand might be the DR in any given situation, it is not necessarily relveant in any given situation. He has to save the world at TG. If his duties as King or vassal lord interfere with that, being DR takes precedence. If he was dealing with Elayne on a matter relating purely to TR, then his being DR, or King of Illian, are not relevant.

 

 

The question is, why would he want her to do it? If he just wanted the armies there, he could get most of them himself just by asking, and maybe asking for Egwene's help. What does he gain by setting up a conflict? Also, Mahatma-Rand? Why not just go for Randhi?

 

I stole Mahatma-Rand from another thread, but I like Randhi better and will start using it now. Thanks .

 

As far as why have her do it. Rand has many other things on his plate at the time. Rand expects Egwene to be confrontational to his ideas, and if he had told her that he wants to hold the world hostage by not going to SG at all if they don't agree and then gave her 30 days to think it over it is possible that she or others might have found a way to stop him. But when you look at what he has set up by only giving her a piece of his overall plan, this worked like a charm. He has all of the major rulers (outside Seanchan) of Randland in one spot with their armies. He knows that by the time of FoM no of the rulers would actually dare kill him (if they could). Now he has the perfect location and setting to deliver his full plan and ultimatum. And Egwene created it for him. It is a platform and a launching point for TG.

The point is, he could have secured that anyway, simply by getting Egwene to agree to drag all the rulers and their armies to the FoM to hold a council of war. true, she would be angry with him at first, but he could defuse her anger. If he tells her there is much to discuss, and he doesn't want to have to go over it with her, and then with everyone else, is she really likely to petulantly refuse to help him gather everyone? Most of them already have strong enough ties to Rand they would want to come and listen to what he had to say, so any refusal to help on her part makes things harder, but he can still do it. What does he gain from antagonising her? How does the situation at the FoM benefit from being like a tinder box?

 

In fact Elayne creates no "High Lord" at all.

Yes. That means Rand is no high lord. TR is his seat in Andor. And high lords do not have steward, only kings have. Having a seat is diferent from being a high lord.

Only kings have stewards? Since when? If the TR is Rand's seat in Andor, that means Rand rules there (you know, like how lords rule stuff), but does so beneath the Queen of Andor (also much like a lord). So, Rand rules the region, and is subservient to the Andoran Queen. So Rand is just like the High lord of the Two Rivers, except for the fact, according to some, that he isn't. He is just some guy who happens to have been given title to a place but not actually any title. Perrin, on the other hand, is a High Lord of nothing at all, given that he is subordinate to Rand (who rules there). How can Perrin be lord of the TR if TR is Rand's? This makes no sense at all. The only reasonable explanation that can be taken from this is that Rand is to be made High Lord, and Perrin his Steward, to rule in his name until Rand comes to take up his seat and his responsibilities.

 

 

I love ToM, but unfortunately it made me hate Elayne. I realize she's Queen and all and needs to act the part, but threatening to execute one of the people she knows HAS to be at Tarmon Gaidon or they all lose... that's just stupid.

Considering she had no intention of executing him, what part was dumb?

[Val Mickey]

How can Perrin be lord of the TR if TR is Rand's?

 

I promised myself not to get dragged back into this, so this is a first and last infraction.

 

How can Darlin be King of Tear if Tear is Rand's?

 

(Tear rhymes with TR. So cool.)

[bysomy]

Does his ta'avern status absolve him of rebellion or any crime he could commit? In that case, the Whitecloaks were wrong in wanting Perrin to answer for the two Children of the Light he killed.

In part, yes because he had no control over his actions. His "rebellion" was directly conceived by the pattern because they are important to the last battle. Perrin seems unable to control his ta'avern-ness unlike Rand or Mat to some extent. The Whitecloaks were wrong, if people who had no legal authority over me or the land I was in tryed to force me out of my camp at swordpoint, and my companion was someone who Whitecloaks normally execute on the spot, and they killed something I had a serious mental link to, AND the pattern "controls me more than other men", I would fight back.

[babuada]

Blah blah blah ... is she really likely to petulantly refuse to help him gather everyone? ... blah blah blah

Finally you got it. The answer is yes. She is still a petulant child playing at being Amyrlin. She will refuse to help him like she always does from book one. Rand knows her inside out and played her obstinate nature against her.

 

I love this new Rand5.0

[blazetheearth]

The question is, why would he want her to do it? If he just wanted the armies there, he could get most of them himself just by asking, and maybe asking for Egwene's help. What does he gain by setting up a conflict? Also, Mahatma-Rand? Why not just go for Randhi?

 

I stole Mahatma-Rand from another thread, but I like Randhi better and will start using it now. Thanks .

 

As far as why have her do it. Rand has many other things on his plate at the time. Rand expects Egwene to be confrontational to his ideas, and if he had told her that he wants to hold the world hostage by not going to SG at all if they don't agree and then gave her 30 days to think it over it is possible that she or others might have found a way to stop him. But when you look at what he has set up by only giving her a piece of his overall plan, this worked like a charm. He has all of the major rulers (outside Seanchan) of Randland in one spot with their armies. He knows that by the time of FoM no of the rulers would actually dare kill him (if they could). Now he has the perfect location and setting to deliver his full plan and ultimatum. And Egwene created it for him. It is a platform and a launching point for TG.

The point is, he could have secured that anyway, simply by getting Egwene to agree to drag all the rulers and their armies to the FoM to hold a council of war. true, she would be angry with him at first, but he could defuse her anger. If he tells her there is much to discuss, and he doesn't want to have to go over it with her, and then with everyone else, is she really likely to petulantly refuse to help him gather everyone? Most of them already have strong enough ties to Rand they would want to come and listen to what he had to say, so any refusal to help on her part makes things harder, but he can still do it. What does he gain from antagonising her? How does the situation at the FoM benefit from being like a tinder box?

 

We have seen her "petulantly refuse" to do as he wished on a number of occasions through out the series, and since he has not seen or talked to her since he was held by Galina and Co., I can easily understand why he would not think that she has changed. But it boils down to time and effort. Why should he spend time during the meeting at the WT or after explaining everything to her. She will do what he wants without the explainations, so what would be the point? To keep FoM from being a tinder box? Not gonna happen, Gawyn comments on it, there are to many conflicting loyalties and opinions in that one place for it to be anything except a tinder box, no matter whether the armies assembled at Rand's behest or Egwene's. To me pissing her off was the quickest and easiest wy to accomplish the goals he set out to do. In order to convince her, he would have had to subject himself to the "tests" that she mentioned, and can you or anyone else have said how long those "tests" would take? And those would have to be completed before Egwene could be convinced. And what if one of those tests revealed something that set firmly in her mind that he was insane (which he is) and therefore even less to be trusted than when he walked in? How would that have helped in convincing her to gather the armies like he wanted. And it is plain that her mind was as much on AM bonding AS as it was what Rand was saying, since she would not let him leave without bringing it up, so that would be another stumbling block to convincing her. I really don't see how he could have accomplished all of this in as little time and with as little effort as it took just by being antagonistic toward her. By the beginning of this book, he is on a limited time schedule and he knows it. He has many things to do during the time he has left and cannot (or will not after the Galina thing) let himself be put in a box for AS to run tests on him before being able to convince Eggy to do what he wants.

 

I understand the reluctance to see through his eyes in this instance because he comes across as being as arrogant as any AS in the series, but really he was simply being as manipulative as all the AS are taught to be. People complain about Cads not just sitting down and talking to him instead of trying to bully him, but she taught him well. When you try to talk to someone as an equal, it gives them a chance to argue with you, but when you simply bully them into doing what you want it saves time and energy. I don't necessarily agree with the idea, but I understand why Rand did it the way he did.

 

And I just don't really see FoM being any worse of a tinder box as a result of his actions than it would have been had he followed your course. I don't see that the camps would have been mingling (any more than they are), and I think that had he told her enough to convince her then she would have phrased the call to arms differently, which might have tipped off the Shadow prematurely. Right now the Shadow agents can only know that he plans on breaking the seals. Eggy's letter to Darlin did not mention that Rand intends to travel to SG, only that he planned on breaking the seals. So how much of the rest might have been revealed if she wrote that letter differently, and as such how many DF's could have intercepted it or learned of its contents.Based on what she sent in the letters, the Shadow has no reason to try to disrupt the meeting or try to stop him, because according to what she writes, Rand will be doing their work for them.

[Muad Cheade]

How can Perrin be lord of the TR if TR is Rand's?

 

I promised myself not to get dragged back into this, so this is a first and last infraction.

 

How can Darlin be King of Tear if Tear is Rand's?

 

(Tear rhymes with TR. So cool.)

Perrin is Steward of the Two Rivers. Rand is the Lord of the Two Rivers.

 

Tear is Rand's by right of conquest. Darlin is King of Tear under Rand, similar to Perrin's new role.

 

Does his ta'avern status absolve him of rebellion or any crime he could commit? In that case, the Whitecloaks were wrong in wanting Perrin to answer for the two Children of the Light he killed.

In part, yes because he had no control over his actions. His "rebellion" was directly conceived by the pattern because they are important to the last battle. Perrin seems unable to control his ta'avern-ness unlike Rand or Mat to some extent. The Whitecloaks were wrong, if people who had no legal authority over me or the land I was in tryed to force me out of my camp at swordpoint, and my companion was someone who Whitecloaks normally execute on the spot, and they killed something I had a serious mental link to, AND the pattern "controls me more than other men", I would fight back.

No. Perrin was guilty, as ruled by Morgase. The Pattern does not remove free will.

 

 

Blah blah blah ... is she really likely to petulantly refuse to help him gather everyone? ... blah blah blah

Finally you got it. The answer is yes. She is still a petulant child playing at being Amyrlin. She will refuse to help him like she always does from book one. Rand knows her inside out and played her obstinate nature against her.

 

I love this new Rand5.0

How is she a petulant child? How would you react if the savior of the world told you he was going to break the only thing that was keeping reality-altering evil god from affecting the world even more than he currently is?

 

Also, Rand is not the same man Egwene was engaged to. Since they separated, Rand has stilled, subjugated and bonded Aes Sedai, the same fraternity that Egwene leads. How could she respond with anything but mistrust?

[babuada]

Perrin is Steward of the Two Rivers. Rand is the Lord of the Two Rivers.

That was funny. It was not given to Rand as lord. It was given to Dragon Reborn as his seat. Ofcourse I understand Morgese and Elyne would think DR as a servant under them :)

 

Tear is Rand's by right of conquest. Darlin is King of Tear under Rand, similar to Perrin's new role.

A king can be a stuard now? :) Darlin is the king of Tear, not Rand. Darlin rules it as a sovereign not under him. Darlin is under DRAGON REBORN as every sovereign ruler in Light's side should be. Look at the border landers. Now if somebody does not want to be in the side of Light ...

 

How is she a petulant child? How would you react if the savior of the world told you he was going to break the only thing that was keeping reality-altering evil god from affecting the world even more than he currently is?

Any true Wise One will react with calm. Think that it is the savior so he has a reason and ASK him what to do now and follow orders. Look at the Aiel Wise Ones.

 

Also, Rand is not the same man Egwene was engaged to. Since they separated, Rand has stilled, subjugated and bonded Aes Sedai, the same fraternity that Egwene leads. How could she respond with anything but mistrust?

The point is she never did in this whole series. She never trusted him from Book one. So, it does not matter what reason she finds this time, the fact is Rand can use her nature against her and did that very efficiently for the sake of Light.

[capuga]

Tear is Rand's by right of conquest. Darlin is King of Tear under Rand, similar to Perrin's new role.

A king can be a stuard now? :) Darlin is the king of Tear, not Rand. Darlin rules it as a sovereign not under him. Darlin is under DRAGON REBORN as every sovereign ruler in Light's side should be. Look at the border landers. Now if somebody does not want to be in the side of Light ...

 

From KoD chapter 21 Within the Stone:

 

Bera speaking to Rand regarding the agreement they made for him with the Tairen rebels - "The agreement is this. Darlin is accepted as Steward in Tear for the Dragon Reborn, all laws you made remain unchanged, and they pay for feeding the city for one year as a fine for rebellion. In return, they receive full restoration, Darlin is crowned King of Tear, and they swear fealty to him. Merana and Rafela are preparing the documents for signatures and seals." Emphasis mine.

 

Later in the same chapter Cadsuane talking to Rand about being more grateful for the agreement that was mad - "Alanna told me the terms you offered before she left - Darlin as Steward, your laws kept, everything else on the table - and it seems they've been met. You can do as you wish, of course, but another piece advice. When the terms you offer are accepted, hold to them."

[Fel]

How is she a petulant child? How would you react if the savior of the world told you he was going to break the only thing that was keeping reality-altering evil god from affecting the world even more than he currently is?

 

Also, Rand is not the same man Egwene was engaged to. Since they separated, Rand has stilled, subjugated and bonded Aes Sedai, the same fraternity that Egwene leads. How could she respond with anything but mistrust?

 

Maybe I might work on an alternate plan using the very considerable resources available to me in the form of 2 whole Ajahs whose purpose is to research and understand these things. I might try to understand why he wants to do this and see if I could see why. I most likely would consider this to be the most important thing on my plate and spend a very considerable portion of the tower's effort on it, rather than more internal political struggles. Basically, many people view her as a petulant child because she does not even consider what he says and does not even investigate if what he says makes sense. Or, if it does not, she does not come up with alternate plans that she thinks are more likely to succeed.

 

What I would not do, and can't understand why she did, is gather armies together from all around the land. What exactly is the purpose of the armies? To intimidate rand? really?

 

She can mistrust him - i would find it strange if she just agreed, but maybe a conversation about it? Maybe listen closely to nynaeve who has heard the longer descriptions? maybe find more info rather than just assuming he is wrong without any real thought about the problem.

 

The world is ending. Reality is unraveling. And, she rejects the only plan laid on the table without even hearing the reasons or taking any time (that we can see) to find an alternative.

[Mr Ares]

How can Perrin be lord of the TR if TR is Rand's?

 

I promised myself not to get dragged back into this, so this is a first and last infraction.

 

How can Darlin be King of Tear if Tear is Rand's?

 

(Tear rhymes with TR. So cool.)

Easily. The point is there is no reason to make Perrin a lord if he is to be Lord of Nothing. The land is granted to the DR, so he rules there, not the High Lord. Darlin being King of Tear was a political concession - the rebels could swear fealty to the King, not the Dragon. As Perrin is satisfied with the title Steward, there is no need for such a concession here - the rebels are already sworn to Perrin, so the mere fact of granting him some legitimacy effectively ends the rebellion. Tear is also a part of Rand's empire, whereas the TR is a part of Andor.

 

Blah blah blah ... is she really likely to petulantly refuse to help him gather everyone? ... blah blah blah

Finally you got it. The answer is yes. She is still a petulant child playing at being Amyrlin. She will refuse to help him like she always does from book one. Rand knows her inside out and played her obstinate nature against her.

The answer is no. She wanted to trust him. TG is something that directly affects everyone, including her, so faced with a planning session for TG she isn't likely to sit it out.

 

 

The question is, why would he want her to do it? If he just wanted the armies there, he could get most of them himself just by asking, and maybe asking for Egwene's help. What does he gain by setting up a conflict? Also, Mahatma-Rand? Why not just go for Randhi?

 

I stole Mahatma-Rand from another thread, but I like Randhi better and will start using it now. Thanks .

 

As far as why have her do it. Rand has many other things on his plate at the time. Rand expects Egwene to be confrontational to his ideas, and if he had told her that he wants to hold the world hostage by not going to SG at all if they don't agree and then gave her 30 days to think it over it is possible that she or others might have found a way to stop him. But when you look at what he has set up by only giving her a piece of his overall plan, this worked like a charm. He has all of the major rulers (outside Seanchan) of Randland in one spot with their armies. He knows that by the time of FoM no of the rulers would actually dare kill him (if they could). Now he has the perfect location and setting to deliver his full plan and ultimatum. And Egwene created it for him. It is a platform and a launching point for TG.

The point is, he could have secured that anyway, simply by getting Egwene to agree to drag all the rulers and their armies to the FoM to hold a council of war. true, she would be angry with him at first, but he could defuse her anger. If he tells her there is much to discuss, and he doesn't want to have to go over it with her, and then with everyone else, is she really likely to petulantly refuse to help him gather everyone? Most of them already have strong enough ties to Rand they would want to come and listen to what he had to say, so any refusal to help on her part makes things harder, but he can still do it. What does he gain from antagonising her? How does the situation at the FoM benefit from being like a tinder box?

 

We have seen her "petulantly refuse" to do as he wished on a number of occasions through out the series, and since he has not seen or talked to her since he was held by Galina and Co., I can easily understand why he would not think that she has changed. But it boils down to time and effort. Why should he spend time during the meeting at the WT or after explaining everything to her. She will do what he wants without the explainations, so what would be the point? To keep FoM from being a tinder box? Not gonna happen, Gawyn comments on it, there are to many conflicting loyalties and opinions in that one place for it to be anything except a tinder box, no matter whether the armies assembled at Rand's behest or Egwene's. To me pissing her off was the quickest and easiest wy to accomplish the goals he set out to do. In order to convince her, he would have had to subject himself to the "tests" that she mentioned, and can you or anyone else have said how long those "tests" would take? And those would have to be completed before Egwene could be convinced. And what if one of those tests revealed something that set firmly in her mind that he was insane (which he is) and therefore even less to be trusted than when he walked in? How would that have helped in convincing her to gather the armies like he wanted. And it is plain that her mind was as much on AM bonding AS as it was what Rand was saying, since she would not let him leave without bringing it up, so that would be another stumbling block to convincing her. I really don't see how he could have accomplished all of this in as little time and with as little effort as it took just by being antagonistic toward her. By the beginning of this book, he is on a limited time schedule and he knows it. He has many things to do during the time he has left and cannot (or will not after the Galina thing) let himself be put in a box for AS to run tests on him before being able to convince Eggy to do what he wants.

 

I understand the reluctance to see through his eyes in this instance because he comes across as being as arrogant as any AS in the series, but really he was simply being as manipulative as all the AS are taught to be. People complain about Cads not just sitting down and talking to him instead of trying to bully him, but she taught him well. When you try to talk to someone as an equal, it gives them a chance to argue with you, but when you simply bully them into doing what you want it saves time and energy. I don't necessarily agree with the idea, but I understand why Rand did it the way he did.

 

And I just don't really see FoM being any worse of a tinder box as a result of his actions than it would have been had he followed your course. I don't see that the camps would have been mingling (any more than they are), and I think that had he told her enough to convince her then she would have phrased the call to arms differently, which might have tipped off the Shadow prematurely. Right now the Shadow agents can only know that he plans on breaking the seals. Eggy's letter to Darlin did not mention that Rand intends to travel to SG, only that he planned on breaking the seals. So how much of the rest might have been revealed if she wrote that letter differently, and as such how many DF's could have intercepted it or learned of its contents. Based on what she sent in the letters, the Shadow has no reason to try to disrupt the meeting or try to stop him, because according to what she writes, Rand will be doing their work for them.

You make some good points, but I can't agree. Perrin setting up camp apart from the others is thought to be the spark that might set everything ablaze. He came to support Rand. The others might have come to oppose him, or even just to listen to what he had to say before making up their minds. The FoM is set up from the beginning to be a conflict - Rand against Egwene. If he had announced it as a council of war, not revealed his plan, then they would have come to plan for TG. That puts them all on the same side, that of the Light. They are uncertain allies to begin with, and this pushes them ever closer to outright enmity. As for the Shadow, the only person who would be able to act against such a force is Moridin, and he is very unlikely to. Cadsuane is quite willing to talk to people as equals, and offers advice to Rand, not always trying to force him to her will, so if this is a lesson he's learnt from her he obviously wasn't paying too much attention in class. As for Egwene, she wanted to trust Rand. And then he antagonises her. Had he just said he wanted to meet with all the rulers of the world, to discuss plans for TG, she would have been on side. Had he asked Egwene to help him gather the armies of the world at FoM to prepare to TG, she might well have helped him. He could have tried that, and then if it failed announced he would be breaking the seals and going to SG. He could lose maybe a couple of minutes by asking her first, then going the route he did if she didn't agree.

 

Perrin is Steward of the Two Rivers. Rand is the Lord of the Two Rivers.

That was funny. It was not given to Rand as lord. It was given to Dragon Reborn as his seat. Ofcourse I understand Morgese and Elyne would think DR as a servant under them :)

So Rand isn't the Dragon Reborn now? And it being his seat means precisely that he is lord.

 

Darlin is under DRAGON REBORN as every sovereign ruler in Light's side should be.

No. Many of them are allied to the Dragon, but Illian and Tear are both ruled by him. There is a difference.

 

How is she a petulant child? How would you react if the savior of the world told you he was going to break the only thing that was keeping reality-altering evil god from affecting the world even more than he currently is?

Any true Wise One will react with calm. Think that it is the savior so he has a reason and ASK him what to do now and follow orders.

I really hate the line of thinking that because Rand is the chosen one, everyone else should just fall in line and listen to him. Sometimes, other people really do know better.

 

She can mistrust him - i would find it strange if she just agreed, but maybe a conversation about it? Maybe listen closely to nynaeve who has heard the longer descriptions? maybe find more info rather than just assuming he is wrong without any real thought about the problem.

 

The world is ending. Reality is unraveling. And, she rejects the only plan laid on the table without even hearing the reasons or taking any time (that we can see) to find an alternative.

She asked him why, and he refused to answer. And there is no plan on the table to save the world - breaking the seals is a preliminary step, and Rand did not put forward what he will do after that. On the contrary, he basically admits he doesn't know how: "I believe that saidin and saidar must both be used. I don't have the answers yet." As for what she said on hearing his plan: "We must talk about this. Plan."

[babuada]

Easily. The point is there is no reason to make Perrin a lord if he is to be Lord of Nothing. The land is granted to the DR, so he rules there, not the High Lord. Darlin being King of Tear was a political concession - the rebels could swear fealty to the King, not the Dragon. As Perrin is satisfied with the title Steward, there is no need for such a concession here - the rebels are already sworn to Perrin, so the mere fact of granting him some legitimacy effectively ends the rebellion. Tear is also a part of Rand's empire, whereas the TR is a part of Andor.

Yes. TR is part of Andor as long as Perin says and still now he did not say otherwise. I still wonder how much snutty Morgese and Elayne could be that they think of making DR their servant. I agree to Ares that that is what Elayne meant.

 

The answer is no. She wanted to trust him.

Have you read the book? She was not even able to think of him as Rand, only Dragon Reborn, she hates him. Only after she was swept by Rand's Taveren power that her thought changed. And give me a single incidence in this whole series where she actually hid his word or trusted him much less respected him.

 

TG is something that directly affects everyone, including her, so faced with a planning session for TG she isn't likely to sit it out.

But that is exactly what she did. Rand ASKED her to plan. But instead of planning, she gave into petty childish fear and abused her power to play petty politics. Obviously what do you expect from a child Amyrlin.

 

You make some good points, but I can't agree. Perrin setting up camp apart from the others is thought to be the spark that might set everything ablaze. He came to support Rand. The others might have come to oppose him, or even just to listen to what he had to say before making up their minds. The FoM is set up from the beginning to be a conflict - Rand against Egwene. If he had announced it as a council of war, not revealed his plan, then they would have come to plan for TG. That puts them all on the same side, that of the Light. They are uncertain allies to begin with, and this pushes them ever closer to outright enmity. As for the Shadow, the only person who would be able to act against such a force is Moridin, and he is very unlikely to. Cadsuane is quite willing to talk to people as equals, and offers advice to Rand, not always trying to force him to her will, so if this is a lesson he's learnt from her he obviously wasn't paying too much attention in class. As for Egwene, she wanted to trust Rand. And then he antagonises her. Had he just said he wanted to meet with all the rulers of the world, to discuss plans for TG, she would have been on side. Had he asked Egwene to help him gather the armies of the world at FoM to prepare to TG, she might well have helped him. He could have tried that, and then if it failed announced he would be breaking the seals and going to SG. He could lose maybe a couple of minutes by asking her first, then going the route he did if she didn't agree.

All those forces together with that much diversity would still have been a tinder box. Supporting or opposing DR has very less significance to them than their petty politics. It was shown time and again throughout the series. Only hope for Rand is he is going to give them a purpose then and there by starting TG officially (by breaking seals). Rand knows these nobles very well by now and kept it in his plan when he tricked Egg.

 

So Rand isn't the Dragon Reborn now? And it being his seat means precisely that he is lord.

But Elayne did not give it to Rand. She gave it to DR. Just shows how snutty she is thats all.

 

No. Many of them are allied to the Dragon, but Illian and Tear are both ruled by him. There is a difference.

Nope. Only Elayne and Egg are left out of all world leaders who did not swear fealty to him one way or other. And of course Seanchan. There is no one else seating outside field yet to take side.

There is a high chance that they would remain at side line and game would be over.

 

I really hate the line of thinking that because Rand is the chosen one, everyone else should just fall in line and listen to him. Sometimes, other people really do know better.

When they think they know better, they better share that with the chosen one. Because he was chosen by the pattern for some reason. Only by sharing information and discussion you can come to a conclusion. NOT BY BULLYING.

 

She asked him why, and he refused to answer. And there is no plan on the table to save the world - breaking the seals is a preliminary step, and Rand did not put forward what he will do after that. On the contrary, he basically admits he doesn't know how: "I believe that saidin and saidar must both be used. I don't have the answers yet." As for what she said on hearing his plan: "We must talk about this. Plan."

She asked him why? When? She just said you cannot do that as if she knows anything about anything. And Rand does not have all the answers. It is a war. No body would have all the plans sketched that would work. You continue to plan in all direction and still you have to improvise on the field. At least Rand is working on it and he said so. He ASKED her to plan. That is why he came here, to give AS (the horders of knowledge) to finally use those knowledge for the benifit of mankind. But he knew it won't work with her and planned for that too. He tricked her to gather the army for him and he would take over from her in FoM.

[babuada]

Here is my take on those events - To absolve Perrin and the Two Rivers from their 'crime' of rebellion, Elayne grants the Two Rivers autonomy. She recognises Perrin as High Lord of the Two Rivers and agrees to put him above the other Houses. To gain from this, she also desires that Perrin's line will eventually be mixed with that of Trakand's. Giving the TR to the DR is a ploy to make Perrin's High Lord status and the TR autonomy palatable to the other Houses.

 

Mr Ares (and many other readers, in fact most) claim that the TR is to be autonomous, Rand is to be High Lord, Perrin is to be Steward of the TR.

My initial take on this was TR was given to Dragon Reborn as his seat in Andor. That means although TR is part of Andor, it would under DR as an autonomous state. This seemed to be a good political move as other states would offer Dragon Reborn a seat in their area too as a token of respect. But knowing how snuty she is, now I think she thought Dragon Reborn as her servant (as a Lord or whatever). So, probably the idea of Mr Ares and Co are right.

[David Selig]

Here is my take on those events - To absolve Perrin and the Two Rivers from their 'crime' of rebellion, Elayne grants the Two Rivers autonomy. She recognises Perrin as High Lord of the Two Rivers and agrees to put him above the other Houses. To gain from this, she also desires that Perrin's line will eventually be mixed with that of Trakand's. Giving the TR to the DR is a ploy to make Perrin's High Lord status and the TR autonomy palatable to the other Houses.

The whole point of giving the Two Rivers to the Dragon Reborn was to circumvent the objections of the Andoran nobles to giving the upstart they've never heard of (Perrin) the title of High Lord and the tax exemption. Perrin'll be the Steward of the Dragon for Two Rivers now, though he will have the same power in reality, but won't have the High Lord title. Perrin couldn't care less if his title is more prestigious or not if it gave him the power and autonomy he wanted, so he accepted.

 

The offer for marriage between the Trakand and the Aybara Houses was before Morgase came up with the idea to give the Two Rivers to the Dragon Reborn.

 

To divert the discussion, I observed that Elayne does not intend for her children to 'inherit' Illian. What gives?

Rand and Elayne are not married, so their children are illegitimate for now. If Rand is not around to help their claim, as all those prophesies indicate, I don't see how they could get much support from the Illian nobles in the Council of Nine, who seem to have the power to choose the king there - they gave the crown the Rand.

[Grandis]

To divert the discussion, I observed that Elayne does not intend for her children to 'inherit' Illian. What gives?

There is the possibility that she knows that Rand will probably give the crown to Mattin Stepaneos at the earliest opportunity in exchange for an oath of fealty or something similar. Also, Andoran queens have a history of not trying to bite more than they can chew, and since she doesn't know when it will be safe for people to know who the babydaddy is, she certainly can't make any concrete plans.

[Grandis]

wall of text

There's a good reason for why he would want the meeting at FoM to seem like a powder keg; so that the shadow won't be too worried about the forces of the light actually working together. In order to defuse the situation Rand has brought a giant bucket of cold water with the threat that he might refuse to even show up for TG. Remember that Rand did not know that the BA was gone, so he had to believe that anything he said could and would be used against him. The fact that Mesaana was still in the WT makes this a sound decision. If the FoM does turn into a clusterfuck the aforementioned bucket should bring everything to a grinding halt.

[babuada]

wall of text

There's a good reason for why he would want the meeting at FoM to seem like a powder keg; so that the shadow won't be too worried about the forces of the light actually working together. In order to defuse the situation Rand has brought a giant bucket of cold water with the threat that he might refuse to even show up for TG. Remember that Rand did not know that the BA was gone, so he had to believe that anything he said could and would be used against him. The fact that Mesaana was still in the WT makes this a sound decision. If the FoM does turn into a clusterfuck the aforementioned bucket should bring everything to a grinding halt.

I think eventually Egg with Elayne at her side would try to force his hand and we'll come to know the True strength of Rand5.0 behind all his miracles. My guess is the dream of Egg about her clawing at the wall made of Light disks invain would be fulfilled at FoM.

Cross your fingers everyone. We're going to see a massive smackdown on Egg. (Just joking :) Its the new Rand you know. He is too polite)

[Fel]

She asked him why, and he refused to answer. And there is no plan on the table to save the world - breaking the seals is a preliminary step, and Rand did not put forward what he will do after that. On the contrary, he basically admits he doesn't know how: "I believe that saidin and saidar must both be used. I don't have the answers yet." As for what she said on hearing his plan: "We must talk about this. Plan."

 

And, of course, after he left, she immediately got together a group of the leading thinkers in the tower's two ajahs dedicated to knowledge and logic and got them to evaluate his thoughts and/or put together an alternate plan? Obviously, since the last battle will likely be joined in earnest in 30 days, she put this as the top priority of the tower, and gave a moving speech to inspire the sisters, reminding them how they were the hope of humanity and had the most knowledge to keep the dark at bay... (also, when news came of the borderlands being overrun, she dispatched off the battle ajah to stop them...)

 

Oh, wait...that was what a good leader would have done...not Egwene. She does not do any of this (and, from the view inside her head, she did not seem to even consider it), but instead tries to muster armies against the dragon after making veiled threats about shielding him or capturing him.

 

If she *did* do detailed study and research and the result was that rand was dead wrong and she was going to show him why...I would have no problem with that - 2 different people with different opinions on how to solve an unknowable problem. But, instead, we have Rand trying to solve the problem (whether you agree with him or not) and Egwene trying to consolidate her hold on the tower and the towers hold on the world.

 

I am puzzled why you don't think it was appropriate for her to put the question of how best to beat the DO at the top of her priority list? Do you really agree it was not an important question she should have been working on?

[babuada]

I am puzzled why you don't think it was appropriate for her to put the question of how best to beat the DO at the top of her priority list? Do you really agree it was not an important question she should have been working on?

She was too busy planning to endanger the life of two of her supposed best friend. (Succeded with Nyn but Elayne booted her. After all Elayne and Egg has similar selfish mentality)

[Mr Ares]

Easily. The point is there is no reason to make Perrin a lord if he is to be Lord of Nothing. The land is granted to the DR, so he rules there, not the High Lord. Darlin being King of Tear was a political concession - the rebels could swear fealty to the King, not the Dragon. As Perrin is satisfied with the title Steward, there is no need for such a concession here - the rebels are already sworn to Perrin, so the mere fact of granting him some legitimacy effectively ends the rebellion. Tear is also a part of Rand's empire, whereas the TR is a part of Andor.

Yes. TR is part of Andor as long as Perin says and still now he did not say otherwise. I still wonder how much snutty Morgese and Elayne could be that they think of making DR their servant. I agree to Ares that that is what Elayne meant.

Well, she didn't say anything about making him a servant, that I can recall. Would you care to support that?

 

The answer is no. She wanted to trust him.

Have you read the book?

Yes. And I can quote it. For example, this from ToM 3: "To me, he must be Rand. Because Rand can be trusted." So, that would be the book supporting me then.

 

TG is something that directly affects everyone, including her, so faced with a planning session for TG she isn't likely to sit it out.

But that is exactly what she did.

No, it isn't, as she went to the FoM, where this meeting was supposed to be. And she did use her time to plan.

 

You make some good points, but I can't agree. Perrin setting up camp apart from the others is thought to be the spark that might set everything ablaze. He came to support Rand. The others might have come to oppose him, or even just to listen to what he had to say before making up their minds. The FoM is set up from the beginning to be a conflict - Rand against Egwene. If he had announced it as a council of war, not revealed his plan, then they would have come to plan for TG. That puts them all on the same side, that of the Light. They are uncertain allies to begin with, and this pushes them ever closer to outright enmity. As for the Shadow, the only person who would be able to act against such a force is Moridin, and he is very unlikely to. Cadsuane is quite willing to talk to people as equals, and offers advice to Rand, not always trying to force him to her will, so if this is a lesson he's learnt from her he obviously wasn't paying too much attention in class. As for Egwene, she wanted to trust Rand. And then he antagonises her. Had he just said he wanted to meet with all the rulers of the world, to discuss plans for TG, she would have been on side. Had he asked Egwene to help him gather the armies of the world at FoM to prepare to TG, she might well have helped him. He could have tried that, and then if it failed announced he would be breaking the seals and going to SG. He could lose maybe a couple of minutes by asking her first, then going the route he did if she didn't agree.

All those forces together with that much diversity would still have been a tinder box.

And yet: "Aybara and his force could be a spark that sends us all up like a firework." ToM56. It is his arrival, setting up camp away from others, that has the potential to exacerbate an already dangerous situation. Always going to be a dangerous situation, but things have been made worse.

 

So Rand isn't the Dragon Reborn now? And it being his seat means precisely that he is lord.

But Elayne did not give it to Rand. She gave it to DR.

...But Rand is the Dragon Reborn.

 

No. Many of them are allied to the Dragon, but Illian and Tear are both ruled by him. There is a difference.

Nope.

Yup. Ghealdan is Perrin's, not Rand's, Mayene is a willing ally of the Dragon's, as are the Borderlands, and Andor, he had Cairhien but ceded it to Elayne, Far Madding is unaligned, last I checked, and Arad Doman is an ally, as far as I'm aware. They might be on his side, come TG, but he doesn't have the authority to change laws in those nations in the way he did in Tear, for example.

 

She asked him why, and he refused to answer. And there is no plan on the table to save the world - breaking the seals is a preliminary step, and Rand did not put forward what he will do after that. On the contrary, he basically admits he doesn't know how: "I believe that saidin and saidar must both be used. I don't have the answers yet." As for what she said on hearing his plan: "We must talk about this. Plan."

She asked him why? When?

I quoted it.

 

Here is my take on those events - To absolve Perrin and the Two Rivers from their 'crime' of rebellion, Elayne grants the Two Rivers autonomy. She recognises Perrin as High Lord of the Two Rivers and agrees to put him above the other Houses. To gain from this, she also desires that Perrin's line will eventually be mixed with that of Trakand's. Giving the TR to the DR is a ploy to make Perrin's High Lord status and the TR autonomy palatable to the other Houses.

 

Mr Ares (and many other readers, in fact most) claim that the TR is to be autonomous, Rand is to be High Lord, Perrin is to be Steward of the TR.

My initial take on this was TR was given to Dragon Reborn as his seat in Andor. That means although TR is part of Andor, it would under DR as an autonomous state. This seemed to be a good political move as other states would offer Dragon Reborn a seat in their area too as a token of respect. But knowing how snuty she is, now I think she thought Dragon Reborn as her servant (as a Lord or whatever). So, probably the idea of Mr Ares and Co are right.

There is a pretty big difference between a servant and a lord. The TR was an autonomous province of Andor, whether under Perrin or Rand, but giving it to the rebel Perrin would be unpalatable, but giving it to the DR (a man Andor owes a debt to, according to Elayne) would be a fitting reward, and Perrin is elevated by his friend Rand to a Steward, rather than seizing a lordship by force of arms. Also, what does snuty mean?

 

She asked him why, and he refused to answer. And there is no plan on the table to save the world - breaking the seals is a preliminary step, and Rand did not put forward what he will do after that. On the contrary, he basically admits he doesn't know how: "I believe that saidin and saidar must both be used. I don't have the answers yet." As for what she said on hearing his plan: "We must talk about this. Plan."

 

And, of course, after he left, she immediately got together a group of the leading thinkers in the tower's two ajahs dedicated to knowledge and logic and got them to evaluate his thoughts and/or put together an alternate plan?

Surely you need a plan before you can have an alternative?

 

If she *did* do detailed study and research and the result was that rand was dead wrong and she was going to show him why...I would have no problem with that - 2 different people with different opinions on how to solve an unknowable problem. But, instead, we have Rand trying to solve the problem (whether you agree with him or not) and Egwene trying to consolidate her hold on the tower and the towers hold on the world.

No, we don't have that. We have Rand putting forward a plan to open the Bore, but not to seal it afterwards, and Egwene with a plan to stop him from opening the Bore. No-one has yet put forward a plan to seal the Bore. It's possible Rand has one, or maybe he just plans to see how things go. But he didn't share his plans with us, or with Egwene - from her point of view, she sees Rand's actions as reckless, and he refuses to even elaborate on why he is doing them. She has bloody good reason to oppose him, and I can't help but hope that his machinations in this regard blow up in his face.

 

I am puzzled why you don't think it was appropriate for her to put the question of how best to beat the DO at the top of her priority list?

Of course it should be a high priority. Just because I am currently focusing more on Rand's mistakes and behaviour, doesn't mean Egwene is without flaw in this. As I said, no-one has put forward a plan to seal the Bore so far. That's a pretty big thing to ignore. I do hope that at the FoM, someone does call her on her failure in this regard. Mistakes have been made on both sides, I'd say.

[ranjitb]

Mr. Ares - I completely agree with everything you said.

However as I posted elsewhere the difference between "So what if Egwene is an asshole, so is Rand !" is that we have spent entire books and storylines grinding through the fact that Rand is making a mistake. Every single character in every single book agonizes about how he is becoming too hard, too stuck up, too out of touch etc. etc. etc.

More than that, we have gone down the Darth Rand path and barely returned - we saw that the entire countries of Arad Doman and Saldea were nearly destroyed due to his errors in judgment and he had to go fix them.

We had to sit through four people *physically* slap him to the ground, to his knees in front of his ostensible followers, to check if he was too arrogant or not, and then received a half-assed fortelling to justify it.

Leave aside Everywoman Min, whose personal mission of "keeping him grounded" is accomplished in large part by continuously reminding him that he started out as a sheepherder.

 

And given the situation in the Black Tower, the grand world tour of "I'm so sorry, I was wrong" Rand isn't over yet.

 

Compare this to what we have in Egwene where her behavior is continuously rewarded by people smarter (yes smarter), older, more experienced, what have you - always realizing that she is doing the right thing.

It's always "Oh yes, you are Teh Mother, of course we must defer to you, in order to maintain the dignity of your station ! And b.t.w. you were right about everything else as well !" Is the dignity of her station really more important than his ?

Would Elayne slap her in the face to check if she was reasonable enough to listen to another monarch ?

Can you *imagine* what would happen if Gawyn were to suddenly say "Hey there milkmaid, what gives ?"

 

The difference between the two of them is that Rand is continuously called on his shit, and Egwene isn't. Simple as that.

[Fel]

No, we don't have that. We have Rand putting forward a plan to open the Bore, but not to seal it afterwards, and Egwene with a plan to stop him from opening the Bore. No-one has yet put forward a plan to seal the Bore. It's possible Rand has one, or maybe he just plans to see how things go. But he didn't share his plans with us, or with Egwene - from her point of view, she sees Rand's actions as reckless, and he refuses to even elaborate on why he is doing them. She has bloody good reason to oppose him, and I can't help but hope that his machinations in this regard blow up in his face.

If times are desperate (and I hope you agree that Egwene should see them as desperate) and you need a plan on how to save the world (and I hope you agree that she should realize they need some plan) and you think that the only plan on the table is boneheaded (which we agree that she thinks), then why in the Light do you not start working IMMEDIATELY with all your effort to come up with an alternative? That is all I am faulting her for. Reality is ending and she is not coming up with a constructive way to help it. She is trying to stop Rand, which is fine, but the only real effective way to stop him would be to have an alternative. Especially when Nynaeve says that his reasoning makes some sense, she should have realized that she needed to understand/fix the problem, not just reflexively oppose rand because she does not understand his reasoning.

 

Which would be more effective at stopping things?

 

"Rand you can't break the seals because you are a woolhead and I will continually sniff at you. And, I brought all of your armies here so they can...not really sure what they can do...but they sure look pretty out there..."

 

or

 

"Rand, you can't break the seals...we've had the whites and browns researching this nonstop and they say that the moment the seals are broken, you will see a massive outrush of darkness that you need to prepare for by doing the following...."

 

Of course it should be a high priority. Just because I am currently focusing more on Rand's mistakes and behaviour, doesn't mean Egwene is without flaw in this. As I said, no-one has put forward a plan to seal the Bore so far. That's a pretty big thing to ignore. I do hope that at the FoM, someone does call her on her failure in this regard. Mistakes have been made on both sides, I'd say.

I am not saying Rand did the best thing, just that Egwene is abrogating her responsibility to try to save the *world* (not the Tower, the world) which is what her position as the Amyrlin seat should call on her to focus on. Rand does not have a fully fleshed out plan by any means, but is going on the general guidance of herid fel and the Aelfinn, and has tasked Min to try to figure out the details. It's not close to enough, but he is attempting to solve the problem.

[babuada]

Of course it should be a high priority. Just because I am currently focusing more on Rand's mistakes and behaviour, doesn't mean Egwene is without flaw in this. As I said, no-one has put forward a plan to seal the Bore so far. That's a pretty big thing to ignore. I do hope that at the FoM, someone does call her on her failure in this regard. Mistakes have been made on both sides, I'd say.

I am not saying Rand did the best thing, just that Egwene is abrogating her responsibility to try to save the *world* (not the Tower, the world) which is what her position as the Amyrlin seat should call on her to focus on. Rand does not have a fully fleshed out plan by any means, but is going on the general guidance of herid fel and the Aelfinn, and has tasked Min to try to figure out the details. It's not close to enough, but he is attempting to solve the problem.

While Egg isn't. Egg is only trying to hinder the only plan on plate.

[babuada]

Well, she didn't say anything about making him a servant, that I can recall. Would you care to support that?

Doesn't a high lord serve the QUEEN.

 

The answer is no. She wanted to trust him.

Have you read the book?

Yes. And I can quote it. For example, this from ToM 3: "To me, he must be Rand. Because Rand can be trusted." So, that would be the book supporting me then.

This is after she went under influence. The change in her attitude is proof that she was influenced.

 

TG is something that directly affects everyone, including her, so faced with a planning session for TG she isn't likely to sit it out.

But that is exactly what she did.

No, it isn't, as she went to the FoM, where this meeting was supposed to be. And she did use her time to plan.

For TG? Can I have a quote where she is planning for TG?

 

And yet: "Aybara and his force could be a spark that sends us all up like a firework." ToM56. It is his arrival, setting up camp away from others, that has the potential to exacerbate an already dangerous situation. Always going to be a dangerous situation, but things have been made worse.

Really! Poor Egg! Afterall it is her fault that they are not all at The Perin's side. Don't worry, they will be except Egg And Elayne.

 

Aybara and his force is danger because of the diversity. Why do you think it is because they are at opposite side? The comment simply goes for he has accumulated that many nations in place.

 

So Rand isn't the Dragon Reborn now? And it being his seat means precisely that he is lord.

But Elayne did not give it to Rand. She gave it to DR.

...But Rand is the Dragon Reborn.

And Elayne wants the Dragon Reborn as servant.

 

No. Many of them are allied to the Dragon, but Illian and Tear are both ruled by him. There is a difference.

Nope.

Yup. Ghealdan is Perrin's, not Rand's, Mayene is a willing ally of the Dragon's, as are the Borderlands, and Andor, he had Cairhien but ceded it to Elayne, Far Madding is unaligned, last I checked, and Arad Doman is an ally, as far as I'm aware. They might be on his side, come TG, but he doesn't have the authority to change laws in those nations in the way he did in Tear, for example.

And Borderlands have sworn fealty. Counting all the leaders, only two does not bound themselves to Dragon Reborn. Fortuona of Seanchan and Elayne of Andor. Both thinks him as servant/inferior. Fortuona will eventually be bound to him. Question is will Elayne be? Or she and Egg will remain behind.

 

She asked him why, and he refused to answer. And there is no plan on the table to save the world - breaking the seals is a preliminary step, and Rand did not put forward what he will do after that. On the contrary, he basically admits he doesn't know how: "I believe that saidin and saidar must both be used. I don't have the answers yet." As for what she said on hearing his plan: "We must talk about this. Plan."

She asked him why? When?

I quoted it.

You mean "We must talk about this. Plan." LOL. That is just an WT word for detaining Dragon Reborn. The word "why" is small and easy to ask. I did a search and did not find it.

 

Also, what does snuty mean?

We can get the meaning from Elayne's prominant characteristic even without correct spelling. It is that obvious.

 

Surely you need a plan before you can have an alternative?

A plan, however half baked, is still a plan and Rand gave one to Egg. Egg didn't even try to find an alternative. Instead she was busy in power politics.