Elayne's Arc

[Mr Ares]

I completely understand and believe that Eggy did exactly as Rand intended she would, and since I think that Eggy was doing Rand's bidding (whether she knows it or not) I also believe that the results were ta'veren work.

How so? I've heard this line of reasoning before, but don't really understand it.

 

(Jared but I cant remember what house),

Sarand.

but in spite of knowing this she strips Andor of its army to take to FoM.

Unless you remember something I don't, we don't know what forces she took and how many she left.

[randsc]

And TR is not in Andor. Oh, wait...

 

Even stipulating that the TR is part of Andor, Rand doesn't live there. And has not accepted it as a fief from Elayne. Elayne is not his Queen. I realise that you have a very strong identification with this particular character, but sometimes you just need to accept that she ain't all that.

[Val Mickey]

Rand al'Thor is the King of Illian. Therefore, he is no longer Andoran.

[randsc]

]How so? I've heard this line of reasoning before, but don't really understand it.

 

 

It is fairly simple. During Rand's visit to the Tower, all of the other AS felt unable to intervene, or even speak. Presumably this is due to his Ta'veren influence.

 

There is no indication the Egwene feels that same influence. It is not a question of her feeling it, and being able to fight through it due to her own strength of ppersonality, or anything like that. She just isn't constrained at all.

 

Since we have no reason to believe that Egwene is immune from ta'veren influence, the pattern must not have had a problem with what she was doing.

 

What I personally thought was weird about how that whole scene was written was that the AS couldn't make themselves speak against Rand, but apparently didn't have a problem shielding him. That seems odd. Unless, of course, the shielding was an irrelevency, as Egwene seems to believe it was.

[mbuehner]

]How so? I've heard this line of reasoning before, but don't really understand it.

 

 

It is fairly simple. During Rand's visit to the Tower, all of the other AS felt unable to intervene, or even speak. Presumably this is due to his Ta'veren influence.

 

There is no indication the Egwene feels that same influence. It is not a question of her feeling it, and being able to fight through it due to her own strength of ppersonality, or anything like that. She just isn't constrained at all.

 

Since we have no reason to believe that Egwene is immune from ta'veren influence, the pattern must not have had a problem with what she was doing.

 

What I personally thought was weird about how that whole scene was written was that the AS couldn't make themselves speak against Rand, but apparently didn't have a problem shielding him. That seems odd. Unless, of course, the shielding was an irrelevency, as Egwene seems to believe it was.

 

Bingo, I think that's right. Going one further- Egwene's reaction was required, due to the prophecy of knowing her anger. Since she was going along with the flow of fate, there was no need to nudge her into line. Now had she tried to act differently, things would have started happening to nudge her back towards how things are fated to go down. The showdown on the Fields of Merrilor are assumedly critical to how things are supposed to happen.

[anotherfingolfin]

And TR is not in Andor. Oh, wait...

 

The Andoran claim on the TR is debatable at best, and as you know, has already been beaten to death. More importantly, the point that the assertion that Elayne is Rand's queen is ridiculous, is not contingent on the TR/Andor question, at all.

 

What I personally thought was weird about how that whole scene was written was that the AS couldn't make themselves speak against Rand, but apparently didn't have a problem shielding him. That seems odd. Unless, of course, the shielding was an irrelevency, as Egwene seems to believe it was.

 

Or maybe, him being shielded at that moment just didn't make any difference to the pattern at that point, even if it could hold him. Their shielding didn't interrupt his discussion with Egwene, in the way that their superfluous voices/opinions would would have.

[johthohar]

And TR is not in Andor. Oh, wait...

 

The Andoran claim on the TR is debatable at best, and as you know, has already been beaten to death. More importantly, the point that the assertion that Elayne is Rand's queen is ridiculous, is not contingent on the TR/Andor question, at all.

 

How can you say the Two Rivers being a part of Andor is "debatable at best"? Texas has a better case for not being part of the United States.

[anotherfingolfin]

And TR is not in Andor. Oh, wait...

 

The Andoran claim on the TR is debatable at best, and as you know, has already been beaten to death. More importantly, the point that the assertion that Elayne is Rand's queen is ridiculous, is not contingent on the TR/Andor question, at all.

 

How can you say the Two Rivers being a part of Andor is "debatable at best"? Texas has a better case for not being part of the United States.

 

My point regarding the debatability was referring less to the fact itself, and more to the point that it has been pretty heatedly debated earlier, without too much of a consensus being formed. In this very thread, if I am not delusional.

Also, I'll be honest, I have very little knowledge pertinent to Texan secessionist claims.

[Lacanos]

And TR is not in Andor. Oh, wait...

 

The Andoran claim on the TR is debatable at best, and as you know, has already been beaten to death. More importantly, the point that the assertion that Elayne is Rand's queen is ridiculous, is not contingent on the TR/Andor question, at all.

 

How can you say the Two Rivers being a part of Andor is "debatable at best"? Texas has a better case for not being part of the United States.

 

My point regarding the debatability was referring less to the fact itself, and more to the point that it has been pretty heatedly debated earlier, without too much of a consensus being formed. In this very thread, if I am not delusional.

Also, I'll be honest, I have very little knowledge pertinent to Texan secessionist claims.

No. It's not debatable. It's a fact. The Two Rivers as we know it is a part of Andor. It might not have been in the past, it may not be in the future, but it is at the moment.

[Mulk]

I'm not debating past or future status. But whether the TR is part of Andor RIGHT NOW or not was resolved in Perrin and Elayne's talks. Perrin is subject to Elayne; he agreed to this. He is superior to all other Andoran Lords and Ladies by virtue of this being the land of the Dragon Reborn, but he is still subject to Elayne.

 

To me, that makes it moot whether they were truly part of Andor or not over the past 4-5 generations, but that's just my take.

 

For the Texas stuff (and keep in mind I'm going off 20+ year old memories of state history courses) Texas secessionist claims go back to the state's initial admission to the Union in 1845 (finalized 1846). Since it was its own country joining of its own volition and not by conquest or purchase, things were a touch different than with any other state. I remember there being a provision to break the state into as many as five states, as it was a good deal larger than any other state then currently in the Union. I don't recall this part, but current day secessionists claim Texas retained the right to withdraw and become its own country again. Whether they did or not in the original state constitution to me is irrelevant; as with all other states that were part of the Confederacy, the state had to adopt a new constitution before being fully readmitted to the U.S. I don't believe the 1876 document contains any such provisions. I think the whole business is hogwash myself, as do most Texans I know. Just the minority in this case gets more press than the majority. Press coverage on that stuff is embarrassing, both to me as a resident and (if I were a principled press agent LOL) to the press reporting it. You'd think the state was clamoring for independence like you hear from Quebec and that's just not the case.

[James71]

Rand al'Thor is the King of Illian. Therefore, he is no longer Andoran.

 

It is doubtful than Rand considers himself to be Illian either. He has barely spent any time there.

 

I think if someone were to ask Rand, he would describe himself as from the Two Rivers. That is his cultural upbringing.

He might even consider himself to be Aiel since clearly his father, Janduin, is Aiel.

 

He is like many people in the USA. He is a melting pot of blood and culture.

Aiel (Janduin), Andoran (Tigraine) and Two Rivers (Tam).

[randsc]

There is no doubt that the Two Rivers will be part of ANdor if Rand accedes to Perrin and Elayne's deal.

 

There is considerable doubt as to whether was in the immediate past. Elayne's own POV makes reference to the opportunity to "return" these lands to Andor, which certainly implies that she accepts that they had been "away." Meaning, ironically, that Elayne has a firmer grasp of the practical realities on the ground than many of her passionate defenders here. But whatever, it doesn't matter.

 

No matter how you look at it, Elayne is not Rand's Queen. There is no evidence anywhere in the books of chattel serfdom anywhere in Randland. Meaning Rand was free to leave. Having left and made his residence elsewhere, Rand is no subject of Elayne's. He has spent less than one day in Andor in the last two years, and only minutes or seconds in the Two Rivers.

 

Mister Ares simply let his Elayne-love get the better of him for a minute.

[capuga]

There is no doubt that the Two Rivers will be part of ANdor if Rand accedes to Perrin and Elayne's deal.

 

There is considerable doubt as to whether was in the immediate past. Elayne's own POV makes reference to the opportunity to "return" these lands to Andor, which certainly implies that she accepts that they had been "away." Meaning, ironically, that Elayne has a firmer grasp of the practical realities on the ground than many of her passionate defenders here. But whatever, it doesn't matter.

 

No matter how you look at it, Elayne is not Rand's Queen. There is no evidence anywhere in the books of chattel serfdom anywhere in Randland. Meaning Rand was free to leave. Having left and made his residence elsewhere, Rand is no subject of Elayne's. He has spent less than one day in Andor in the last two years, and only minutes or seconds in the Two Rivers.

 

Mister Ares simply let his Elayne-love get the better of him for a minute.

 

He spends a fair amount of time in the Caemlyn palace after he liberates it from Rahvin. In terms of Elayne being Rand's queen - To me it doesn't really matter because Rand will do whatever he wants regardless. He certainly won't feel the need to bow to a queen's wishes (even one he loves) and since he is the most powerful man on the planet (in any way you measure it - One Power strength, military strength, political influence, etc) he can pretty much do whatever he pleases. Of course, Egwene might not agree with that last statement but I suspect she will learn differently at FoM. Whatever agreement is made there you can be certain it is the one that Rand wants and any points he concedes to Egwene will be his decision and not because he was forced.

[David Selig]

The Dragon Reborn is a special case, outside the normal political structure of Randland. He's not an Andoran subject, or of any other country.

TSR, Chapter 8:

 

“If you call me that again, I shall call you my Lord Dragon. And curtsy. Even the Queen of Andor might curtsy to you, and I am only Daughter-Heir.”

 

It's obvious from here Elayne doesn't consider the Dragon Reborn an Andoran subject.

[blazetheearth]

but in spite of knowing this she strips Andor of its army to take to FoM.

Unless you remember something I don't, we don't know what forces she took and how many she left.

 

The closest I can come to something suggesting the amount of total force Elayne took to FoM is right after she takes the throne of Cairhien. She orders all of the assembled Cairhienen nobles to "Gather your individual forces and House Guards." because they would be "marching, with the forces of Andor, through gateways to a place known as the Fields of Merrilor." When she arrives Egwene only notes that Elayne has a large number of the Band of the Red Hand with her as we as the Cairhienen and Andoran armies. Politically it could be disastrous for her in Cairhien to take all of their arms men while leaving her own Andoran arms men behind, and since she is a thoroughly political animal she would know this and at least match the Cairhienen arms men with Andoran. But I must concede that many people could be simply confusing the 2 countries, because we know directly from her PoV that she completely stripped Cairhien of every potential soldier to take to FoM.

 

Thank you for supplying the name of Jared Sarand.

[Val Mickey]

Rand al'Thor is the King of Illian. Therefore, he is no longer Andoran.

 

It is doubtful than Rand considers himself to be Illian either. He has barely spent any time there.

 

I think if someone were to ask Rand, he would describe himself as from the Two Rivers. That is his cultural upbringing.

He might even consider himself to be Aiel since clearly his father, Janduin, is Aiel.

 

He is like many people in the USA. He is a melting pot of blood and culture.

Aiel (Janduin), Andoran (Tigraine) and Two Rivers (Tam).

 

Something like President Obama, heh?

 

All true. However, it precludes him from being an ordinary citizen of another country. Ergo, Elayne is not his Queen. She is his queen, though.

[Mr Ares]

Rand al'Thor is the King of Illian. Therefore, he is no longer Andoran.

A rather dubious line of reasoning. One can, after all, be a citizen of more than one country. Or an ex-pat. Elayne is Queen of Cairhien, yet is still Andoran. And we have seen numerous examples of people leaving their countries without ceasing to be nationals of that country. So Rand did not cease to be Andoran when he left Andor, nor when he became ruler of Tear (which he remains), nor King of Illian. So, when did he cease to be Andoran?

 

]How so? I've heard this line of reasoning before, but don't really understand it.

It is fairly simple. During Rand's visit to the Tower, all of the other AS felt unable to intervene, or even speak. Presumably this is due to his Ta'veren influence.

 

There is no indication the Egwene feels that same influence. It is not a question of her feeling it, and being able to fight through it due to her own strength of ppersonality, or anything like that. She just isn't constrained at all.

 

Since we have no reason to believe that Egwene is immune from ta'veren influence, the pattern must not have had a problem with what she was doing.

So the Pattern doesn't have any objection to Egwene opposing Rand. Maybe that means that the Pattern wants Rand to stop and think before carrying out his half-baked plan. But how does any of that equate to Egwene doing Rand's bidding?

 

There is no evidence anywhere in the books of chattel serfdom anywhere in Randland.

What's that got to do with anything? One can leave ones country while remaining a citizen. Rand left and became an Andoran abroad.

[AnthonyJamesEnglish]

What's that got to do with anything? One can leave ones country while remaining a citizen. Rand left and became an Andoran abroad.

 

Actually he left and became the Dragon Reborn. he is a person of No bonds. he belongs to everyone and no one as a true aes sedai should be.

 

and if i left Australia and ruled another country im sure that would make me a foreign diplomat and threat more than a member of my former country.

[anotherfingolfin]

Rand the man is genetically half-Andoran, half-Aiel, culturally, of the Two Rivers. The Dragon Reborn is a person who is seemingly not the lesser of any monarch. The only monarchy to outrightly set itself above the DR is that of the Empire of Seanchan. We have no idea how exactly the Sharans view him.

 

There is no evidence anywhere in the books of chattel serfdom anywhere in Randland.

What's that got to do with anything? One can leave ones country while remaining a citizen. Rand left and became an Andoran abroad.

 

Yes, because Randland and the pre-early-modern social milieu it draws upon have strong concepts of citizenship, and documentation thereof? I failed to notice it, please correct me with citations if I am wrong.

While the technicality of Rand the man's Andoran 'citizenship' can be argued inconclusively, and largely arbitrarily, it's pretty safe to say that being the Dragon Reborn, and various events that he has been a part of in that capacity, effectively transcend any such inconsequentiality.

[blazetheearth]

Rand al'Thor is the King of Illian. Therefore, he is no longer Andoran.

A rather dubious line of reasoning. One can, after all, be a citizen of more than one country. Or an ex-pat. Elayne is Queen of Cairhien, yet is still Andoran. And we have seen numerous examples of people leaving their countries without ceasing to be nationals of that country. So Rand did not cease to be Andoran when he left Andor, nor when he became ruler of Tear (which he remains), nor King of Illian. So, when did he cease to be Andoran?

 

 

Once he became the Dragon Reborn. As soon as he announced himself at Falme, he stopped being an Andoran citizen. My reasoning is simple. The same reason the Shinenarans did not feel obligated to return to Lord Agelmar, and instead swore to Rand. Because of this line from the Karaethon Cycle:

 

In sackcloth and ashes shall he clothe the people, and he shall break the world again by his coming, tearing apart all ties that bind.

 

He is not bound to any one country except by his choosing, because all previous ties that bind are torn apart. Simple enough. Other people in the books have used this line as excuse and reason to abandon their duty to their previous Lord or Lady, Queen or King, therefore it can easily apply to Rand and for that matter the TR also.

If Rand tears apart all ties that bind, that would imply that all vassals and properties become free and up for grabs unless and until those vassals reswear their oaths to the liege over them. So once Rand became TDR, all maps became obsolete until new oaths are sworn. None of the borders exist as such any more. Which is actually closer to reality than you might think, Andor and Cairhien have sworn to a new Queen, Tear has sworn to a King, Illian swore to a new King, Ebou Dar has sworn to a new ruler (Empress). Arad Doman still has (or will have) it's King back, and it's very likely that after such a long absence many nobles would reswear allegiance to him because of everything that has happened. Altara is now sworn to the Empress. Basically the entire political structure of Randland has been in upheaval and chaos.

 

But essentially it boils down to neither Rand, nor the TR nor any other part of what had been Andor, was still answerable to a Queen once Rand announced himself. That some noble remained despite the broken bonds has to do with their choice. The bonds were broken but some (like Dylin) reforged the bonds immediately or nearly so, while others chose to accept the break and swear to new Lords (like the TR, or the Shinenarans).

[Mulk]

counterargument to that is that while you do see new Rulership, you never see lands themselves changing ownership. Say from Illian to Tear, or Andor to Cairhien, etc. There are no new kingdoms. Altara and Tarabon are sworn to the Seanchan now, but they are still countries in their own right, subject to the greater authority of the Empress and in any case that occurred by conquest, not by someone deciding "oh, the Dragon Reborn is here so all oaths are null and void!"

 

People changed allegiance - and mostly what we see is from the land of their birth to the DR or the BotRH or the Black Tower or whatever. We don't see lands changing countries, at least not that I recall.

[blazetheearth]

counterargument to that is that while you do see new Rulership, you never see lands themselves changing ownership. Say from Illian to Tear, or Andor to Cairhien, etc. There are no new kingdoms. Altara and Tarabon are sworn to the Seanchan now, but they are still countries in their own right, subject to the greater authority of the Empress and in any case that occurred by conquest, not by someone deciding "oh, the Dragon Reborn is here so all oaths are null and void!"

 

People changed allegiance - and mostly what we see is from the land of their birth to the DR or the BotRH or the Black Tower or whatever. We don't see lands changing countries, at least not that I recall.

 

Except when Pelivar and Co meet the SAS at the end of TPoD. Talmanes tells Eggy that she "changed a border today, Mother." Because the Andorans would not just go home after spending a month camped in northern Murandy. And while the lines on the map say one thing about the borders of these countries, remember we have seen through out the books that really the only lands that held what the maps claimed are Tear, Illian (at least after Samael took charge there), and maybe the borderland countries. Andor could not enforce its claims to all the land depicted on the maps. Tylin says that her writ really only extends 10 miles outside the city (Ebou Dar). Altara was so weak that The Fortress of the Light was much better protected than the capital. Cairhien hasn't been able to support farms near the Dragonwall for 20 years but the maps still show its lands going that far. Far Madding, as far as we can tell, does not even patrol beyond the bridges. I understand what you mean, but when an entire region (the TR) changes allegiance, the same way 20 Shinenarans did, then people refuse to think that they can break away, and consider them rebels. The did not rebel because and claim on the land Andor had was broken by the Dragon's coming, just as Agelmar's claim's on those Shinenarans were broken.

 

And Mainly I was using it to point out exactly when Rand stopped being an Andoran citizen. If people will not accept that he never was, then the moment he announced himself, he broke all the ties Andor had on him. I just happened to realize that it could be applied to evey individual in the TR as well as Rand while I was typing.

[Mulk]

fair enough. I'd argue that the reason that border changed had nothing to do with the Dragon and everything to do with the fact that the Aes Sedai had a fricking huge army and that Murandy was never terribly strong or secure. That's kinda beside the point. I see what you're saying, I just happen to disagree. :)

 

It's an interesting point to argue. My personal thought on the breaking of bonds is that the need to fight and win the last battle supersedes all other claims and responsibilities. The intent of that phrase is not to destroy the current political order (which, if the Dragon does in fact die, will result in anarchy/chaos) but to underscore the preeminence of the Dragon and the battle he fights - if you lose, the world dies. It doesn't get more important than that. I could be mistaken in my thoughts, though.

 

edit for a typo

[Val Mickey]

A rather dubious line of reasoning. One can, after all, be a citizen of more than one country. Or an ex-pat. Elayne is Queen of Cairhien, yet is still Andoran. And we have seen numerous examples of people leaving their countries without ceasing to be nationals of that country. So Rand did not cease to be Andoran when he left Andor, nor when he became ruler of Tear (which he remains), nor King of Illian. So, when did he cease to be Andoran?

 

How can the king of one country be the citizen of another? Would his country then be under his homeland's rule?

 

Elayne herself agrees that Rand is no mere Andoran. If he was just an ordinary citizen, he should have been raised to be the Lord of Two Rivers. Instead she 'cedes' the Two Rivers to be his 'seat' in Andor.

 

Elayne's take over of Cairhien is a special case.

 

QA, The Dragon Reborn has to break the nations. It is a prophecy. It hasn't happened yet (not fully), but lands will soon change hands. I doubt we will see it in the next book though. Of course, the breaking could be metaphorical.

[Mr Ares]

What's that got to do with anything? One can leave ones country while remaining a citizen. Rand left and became an Andoran abroad.

 

Actually he left and became the Dragon Reborn. he is a person of No bonds. he belongs to everyone and no one as a true aes sedai should be.

 

and if i left Australia and ruled another country im sure that would make me a foreign diplomat and threat more than a member of my former country.

Australia might disagree. By, for example, making you an Aussie Lord (if such a thing existed). Rand does not belong to everyone, he belongs to himself. Well, Avi might say differently. If we're going by quotes in the books, how many "you belong to Elayne"s do you think there are?

 

 

Rand al'Thor is the King of Illian. Therefore, he is no longer Andoran.

A rather dubious line of reasoning. One can, after all, be a citizen of more than one country. Or an ex-pat. Elayne is Queen of Cairhien, yet is still Andoran. And we have seen numerous examples of people leaving their countries without ceasing to be nationals of that country. So Rand did not cease to be Andoran when he left Andor, nor when he became ruler of Tear (which he remains), nor King of Illian. So, when did he cease to be Andoran?

Once he became the Dragon Reborn. As soon as he announced himself at Falme, he stopped being an Andoran citizen. My reasoning is simple. The same reason the Shinenarans did not feel obligated to return to Lord Agelmar, and instead swore to Rand. Because of this line from the Karaethon Cycle:

 

In sackcloth and ashes shall he clothe the people, and he shall break the world again by his coming, tearing apart all ties that bind.

 

He is not bound to any one country except by his choosing, because all previous ties that bind are torn apart.

Who has he clothed in sackcloth and ashes? Also, it says by his coming. He came at Dragonmount, in NS, over a decade before his announcement. Seems like in the books, all we see is people going "Dragon's here, ties broken, let's go somewhere else." And yet no nation's borders have changed as a result of his coming. There has been much chaos, much fighting, but in terms of lines on a map, not much difference. Same country, different ruler. New alliances. But not many nobles seem to take that porphecy the way you do, nor many kings and queens.

 

A rather dubious line of reasoning. One can, after all, be a citizen of more than one country. Or an ex-pat. Elayne is Queen of Cairhien, yet is still Andoran. And we have seen numerous examples of people leaving their countries without ceasing to be nationals of that country. So Rand did not cease to be Andoran when he left Andor, nor when he became ruler of Tear (which he remains), nor King of Illian. So, when did he cease to be Andoran?

 

How can the king of one country be the citizen of another? Would his country then be under his homeland's rule?

No. They would be two different countries. We see examples in history, such as the Duke of Normandy becoming King of England - England and France remained separate countries. George I was ruler of Haanover before he got the throne of the UK, and when Victoria became Queen, Hanover went its own way due to different succession laws. A person would have one set of obligations as a citizen of one country, and another as the ruler of another. Rand was ruler of Tear before any other nation (and remains so - the King of Tear's titles include Steward of the Lord Dragon, so Rand is accepted as the lawful ruler, the King only ruling in his stead), and is also King of Illian, yet those two countries remain separate, and Rand was made Lord of the TR in ToM (which puts no obligations on him unless he returns to take up his seat - until then, Perrin is Steward and de facto ruler). He is also Chief of chiefs of the Aiel.

 

Elayne herself agrees that Rand is no mere Andoran. If he was just an ordinary citizen, he should have been raised to be the Lord of Two Rivers. Instead she 'cedes' the Two Rivers to be his 'seat' in Andor.

...He was raised to be High Lord of the Two Rivers. That's exactly what that means.

 

Elayne's take over of Cairhien is a special case.

An unusual case, perhaps, but not unprecedented in the series or reality. And she even discusses with Perrin what will happen should he have kids, with regards to Saldaea.