Elayne's Arc

[randsc]

Well, I'm not sure who that was. Not me.

 

But I will say this: Selucia is a man.

[Val Mickey]

im not even sure mat remembers travelling the ways

Sure he does. On the Skim to Caemlyn in TFOH, he said that it(skimming) was worse than the bloody Ways, which earned him looks from Bael and Asmo.

[moratcorlm]

It is not obvious that the attack is occuring in Elayne's absence. All we see is Talmanes rousing the Band, and Olver getting his knife. And Caemlyn burning.

That Olver won Snakes and Foxes is highly suggestive, though not certain, in placing this at the time Mat escaped the Tower of Ghenjei, on the day before the meeting at Merrilor. Elayne herself took the quick jaunt to Cairhien to be crowned and then headed to Merrilor herself; while she can surely return instantaneously (barring a dreamspike), she's almost certainly still there at the time the invasion begins.

[Nion]

People in this thread seem to be arguing a lot over something they don't really disagree about.

 

The statements "Elaynes views on the Two Rivers are reasonable and realistic, especially coming from royalty" and "Elaynes views on the Two Rivers do kinda stop her from winning any "whos got the most Light Side Points"-awards" aren't really opposed, IMO.

[Mystraka]

Everybody's assuming Elayne is not in Caemlyn when the Trollocs bust through the Waygate. We just don't know whether that's true. IIRC, it's evening when Olver opens the letter, and for all we know Elayne is back from FoM with a 100 AS.

 

While strictly speaking that is true, I think you need to consider what is likely.

 

There are all sorts of things that COULD be true, for all we know. Maybe the Last Battle has already been fought, Rand lost, and the Dark One is allowing the trollocs to rampage for a while as a reward before he unravels the Pattern.

 

But that isn't likely. And I think it is pretty obvious that we are intended to believe that the attack is occuring in Elayne's absence.

 

It is very likely that Elayne has left a 'Call me if there's trouble' mechanism in place. So that in case of an attack on Caemlyn, or the assassination of Dyelin, or the sudden appearance of UFOs, she can be back immediately.

 

It is not obvious that the attack is occuring in Elayne's absence. All we see is Talmanes rousing the Band, and Olver getting his knife. And Caemlyn burning. What is obvious is the surprise of the attack. Elayne must be expecting an attack from the north, not from the middle of her capital.

 

And if we consider only that which is likely, there would be no more fun in speculation. I remember the time when someone thought Moirane was Berelain. Now that is unlikely.

 

Exaggeration, she is a fond friend of yours, yes?

 

P.S Pls dont go all Darth on me.

 

 

I think this 'Call me if there's trouble' idea is more along the lines of a something that "Could" be true, and not likely. When in the past have we ever seen Elayne have a completely comprehensive fail-safe mechanism built into her plans? Elayne is very smart, and generally comes to the right conclusion on the fly (to her credit, thinking on her feet is a strength for her), however her execution of the plan to get to the conclusion is generally lack luster.

[waffle]

Any rebel to a crown is a dangerous rebel. monarchy is based upon everyone accepting where they are. by Perrin rising up with no consequences (until their meeting) he is the most dangerous kind of rebel, the kind that inspires others to rise up against the queen.

Perrin is not a rebel. TR is not a part of Andor.

I'm sure if you say it enough times it will come true. Until then, I must reiterate what I have said previously

 

You don´t see the irony in your statement? Of the pot and kettle variety?

 

Perrin has agreed to let Elayne convince other Andoran nobles that TR is a part of Andor. And to join in an alliance with Andor.

 

Oh I love how you just managed to ignore Mr Ares' important statement immediately after that quote that Perrin himself ADMITTED that TR was part of Andor.

 

I aim to please. Admitted? Can you give a quote? It is entirely possible i missed something.

 

Where are you getting that the Two Rivers isn't a part of Andor? Specific quotes? References? Any evidence at ALL to back up this ridiculous claim?

 

Oh alrighty then you two, i´ll grow as a person and admit i´ve been wrong about a few things.

 

The phrase "subject lord" was mentioned sometime during the discussion and Perrin did accept a title from Elayne (Funny thing is, i have never seen these specific points brought out to rebuke my ramblings(not that i have read every page of every thread)). So i guess the TR in a way falls under Andor now. Although it still looks an awful lot like an alliance to me. No taxes. They govern themselves (Come on, leave me something here.)

 

However, i will stay stubborn on the issue of Perrin not being a rebel. TR might be a part of Andor now, but it was not when he became Lord Perrin.

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

Any rebel to a crown is a dangerous rebel. monarchy is based upon everyone accepting where they are. by Perrin rising up with no consequences (until their meeting) he is the most dangerous kind of rebel, the kind that inspires others to rise up against the queen.

Perrin is not a rebel. TR is not a part of Andor.

I'm sure if you say it enough times it will come true. Until then, I must reiterate what I have said previously

 

You don´t see the irony in your statement? Of the pot and kettle variety?

 

Perrin has agreed to let Elayne convince other Andoran nobles that TR is a part of Andor. And to join in an alliance with Andor.

 

Oh I love how you just managed to ignore Mr Ares' important statement immediately after that quote that Perrin himself ADMITTED that TR was part of Andor.

 

I aim to please. Admitted? Can you give a quote? It is entirely possible i missed something.

 

Where are you getting that the Two Rivers isn't a part of Andor? Specific quotes? References? Any evidence at ALL to back up this ridiculous claim?

 

Oh alrighty then you two, i´ll grow as a person and admit i´ve been wrong about a few things.

 

The phrase "subject lord" was mentioned sometime during the discussion and Perrin did accept a title from Elayne (Funny thing is, i have never seen these specific points brought out to rebuke my ramblings(not that i have read every page of every thread)). So i guess the TR in a way falls under Andor now. Although it still looks an awful lot like an alliance to me. No taxes. They govern themselves (Come on, leave me something here.)

 

However, i will stay stubborn on the issue of Perrin not being a rebel. TR might be a part of Andor now, but it was not when he became Lord Perrin.

 

It was. Have you bothered to check the map in front? It is drawn there that TR is part of Andor. Morgase said in TeoTW that TR was part of Andor, but TR had not seen a tax collector for generations. In TSR, Faile urged Perrin to go to Morgase for help as TR was legally under Andoran ground.

 

There have been numerous instances where it has been mentioned that TR is part of Andor. Ever since the beginning of the series.

[waffle]

There have been numerous instances where it has been mentioned that TR is part of Andor. Ever since the beginning of the series.

 

It has also been mentioned that Rand killed Morgase, that the taint can not be healed and that Rand is a false dragon.

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

There have been numerous instances where it has been mentioned that TR is part of Andor. Ever since the beginning of the series.

 

It has also been mentioned that Rand killed Morgase, that the taint can not be healed and that Rand is a false dragon.

 

But the numerous instances that I have already mentioned are NOT rumours, are they? We already know that Morgase had already said that TR is part of Andor.

[waffle]

There have been numerous instances where it has been mentioned that TR is part of Andor. Ever since the beginning of the series.

 

It has also been mentioned that Rand killed Morgase, that the taint can not be healed and that Rand is a false dragon.

 

But the numerous instances that I have already mentioned are NOT rumours, are they? We already know that Morgase had already said that TR is part of Andor.

 

Umm. I don´t quite understand what you´re trying to get at. So what if Morgase said it? if she pipes up and says Bela is the Dark one, will you take that as fact? If i say some other country is a part of my country, does that make it true? The only in-book authority i´ll accept is the TR people saying: "Yeah, we were actually a part Andor all along"

 

Of course Morgase would say that TR is a part of Andor.

 

 

e-

not trying to say TR wasn´t a part of Andor ~200 years ago. Just that it wasn´t by the time Perrin took control.

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

There have been numerous instances where it has been mentioned that TR is part of Andor. Ever since the beginning of the series.

 

It has also been mentioned that Rand killed Morgase, that the taint can not be healed and that Rand is a false dragon.

 

But the numerous instances that I have already mentioned are NOT rumours, are they? We already know that Morgase had already said that TR is part of Andor.

 

Umm. I don´t quite understand what you´re trying to get at. So what if Morgase said it? if she pipes up and says Bela is the Dark one, will you take that as fact? If i say some other country is a part of my country, does that make it true? The only in-book authority i´ll accept is the TR people saying: "Yeah, we were actually a part Andor all along"

 

Of course Morgase would say that TR is a part of Andor.

 

 

e-

not trying to say TR wasn´t a part of Andor ~200 years ago. Just that it wasn´t by the time Perrin took control.

 

Perrin sent Faile to get Morgase to help the TR people in TSR against the trollocs as was her duty as Queen over the Andor which INCLUDED TR.

 

Anyway, you are also ignoring the fact that the book map says that TR is part of Andor.

[waffle]

There have been numerous instances where it has been mentioned that TR is part of Andor. Ever since the beginning of the series.

 

It has also been mentioned that Rand killed Morgase, that the taint can not be healed and that Rand is a false dragon.

 

But the numerous instances that I have already mentioned are NOT rumours, are they? We already know that Morgase had already said that TR is part of Andor.

 

Umm. I don´t quite understand what you´re trying to get at. So what if Morgase said it? if she pipes up and says Bela is the Dark one, will you take that as fact? If i say some other country is a part of my country, does that make it true? The only in-book authority i´ll accept is the TR people saying: "Yeah, we were actually a part Andor all along"

 

Of course Morgase would say that TR is a part of Andor.

 

 

e-

not trying to say TR wasn´t a part of Andor ~200 years ago. Just that it wasn´t by the time Perrin took control.

 

Perrin sent Faile to get Morgase to help the TR people in TSR against the trollocs as was her duty as Queen over the Andor which INCLUDED TR.

 

Anyway, you are also ignoring the fact that the book map says that TR is part of Andor.

 

Perrin sent Faile away so she wouldn´t get killed. He was expecting to die the next day. And i can´t find any place where Perrin says "get the Queen, it´s her duty as our Queen." It was a ruse. As for what reason did he have to even think that the Queens Guards may show up some day. Well, it´s trollocs. What ruler would want trollocs running around on their borders?

 

 

The map. Maybe you have a batter map than i do. For me TR seems to be in some sort of no-mans and. Emonds Field at least. Both the borders of Andor and Almoth Plain (is that even an independent country?) sort of fade away when they get to the vicinity of Emonds Field.

 

And if the map does show that TR is a part of Andor, then there is the matter of how to interpret the map. Is it word-from-god, or an amalgamation of maps of Randland cartographers.

[David Selig]

Is this a good enough evidence from the books?

 

TEOTW Glossary:

 

Andor ( AN-door): The realm within which the Two Rivers lies.

[waffle]

Is this a good enough evidence from the books?

 

TEOTW Glossary:

 

Andor ( AN-door): The realm within which the Two Rivers lies.

 

Heh. How Asmodeanic.

 

I wish I could say yes :(

[Val Mickey]

I think this 'Call me if there's trouble' idea is more along the lines of a something that "Could" be true, and not likely. When in the past have we ever seen Elayne have a completely comprehensive fail-safe mechanism built into her plans? Elayne is very smart, and generally comes to the right conclusion on the fly (to her credit, thinking on her feet is a strength for her), however her execution of the plan to get to the conclusion is generally lack luster.

 

Very true, though Birgitte and Charlz might have pounded some sense into her. I just can't see her leaving Caemlyn without such a system in place, especially when there are so many mercenaries outside. Doesn't she mention something of the kind to Dyelin, when Dyelin asks her how she would manage two thrones simultaneously?

[Mr Ares]

And yet you haven't explained why staying in Caemlyn is either common sense or good judgement. Wherever she went, she could be reached very quickly provided people knew where she was. While your evidence "should" be those things, it isn't. It's just your say-so. You ignored the point I brought up. There might be very good reasons to leave the country. In this case, she (at no cost to herself) secures her eastern border and dramatically increases the number of soldiers she can call on in the event of an emergency. Her business there would not take long to conduct, and she could be quickly recalled in the event of an emergency. These points you have not addressed. So, how is it a lack of common sense? How is it poor judgement?

 

I haven't? I have been very clear, in fact. "Elanye left shortly after receiving warning of an imminent attack" strikes me as a very short, direct and concise statement.

That is (more or less) what happened, not an explanation of why it should be considered a case of bad judgement, or a lack of common sense. She recieved word that her country was likely to be invaded at some point in the future. She told her advisors this, steps were taken to defend the country, quite some time after this she departs for Cairhien. Where is the bad judgement?

 

As for your user name, I hadn't even noticed that there was no dot right after "Mr".

That would have been an acceptable excuse, were it not for the fact I told you, and you persisted in using it incorrectly for at least two posts afterwards, and you even addressed that I had mentioned it.

 

Still, you want polite? How about you treating others as you'd like to be treated yourself?

I do. They tend to misinterpret.

 

But of course, the AS in Ebou Dar were not inclined to help them with their search. Furthermore, only Elayne and Nynaeve had seen the building in question, so any others would be limited in that they would only be able to work from descriptions. In fact, there was a dispute between Elayne and Nynaeve as to how many floors the building had - I've just checked and it turns out Elayne was right (it had six, Nynaeve thought it had only five). Therefore Nynaeve alone would have had them looking for a five storey building, thus they might well have missed it. So the text provides a clear reason why it is beneficial to have Elayne there. So how I boosted your argument remains unclear, but how I have benefited my own is very clear.

 

It's just that it's not my problem that the stupid, useless wenches who happened to be with Elayne and Nynaeve at Ebou Dar wouldn't prove helpful at all. The fact remains that those two were not the only Aes Sedai in the vicinity at the time.

Their help could not be counted on. Also you did not address my point about their disagreement on the number of floors.

 

No, you were the one who brought up you being part of a majority view. That is both a logical fallacy and not clearly supported.

 

OK. So, we're all stupid then and you're a genius heh heh Give yourself a pat in the back and hope it doesn't get as lonely at the top as they claim ;-)

Well, I wouldn't say I was a genius. And I can't say I have ever felt alienated as a result of my intellectual superiority over most people.

 

That's not true: "So, she goes on to start a civil war to stake her claim, weakening her country in the process."

 

Okay, so that was a poor choice of words on my part. I admit it and stand corrected. So, Elayne did not start civil war. She just perpetuated it and played right into the Shadow's plan to let chaos rule.

I still don't see why this is cause to condemn her. She didn't start the civil war - she returns to her country to find it in progress. So what can she do? As it is, she ended it as quickly as she was able.

 

Don't understand why you keep pursing this,

Because I always live in hope that the people I am debating with will see reason, in time. I am not asking you to like her, only to be a bit more objective in your criticisms.

 

I'm not a party to the Shadow's strategic planning sessions. All I know is that we see in the books that Elayne ended a civil war, and brought order where there was chaos, began mustering her armies for TG, and in general doing the things a good ruler does.

 

Again, fact, not speculation, Mr Ares.

That was fact, not speculation. In fact, you asked me why the Shadow chose to attack Andor. No reason is given in the books, so this is of necessity a matter of speculation. You cannot have it both ways. If you would have me stick to the facts, then Elayne ended a civil war, and consequently brought order to a chaotic situation, she began mustering her armies for TG, etc. Elayne leaving Caemlyn and Andor ripe for the Shadow's picking is your opinion, but it is not a matter of fact, supported by the books.

 

True. That doesn't mean that what I am saying is a matter of opinion, it just means I can't be bothered to go and track down verbatim quotes for every last little thing to support my views when you've not asked for them and they shouldn't be necessary. It's a lot of trouble to go to, and I don't bother without good reason. If I have to, I can provide. This is not my personal take, much of the time, an awful lot of what I say is matters of fact. There is a difference between that and opinion, and my opinions tend to be backed up by fact, rather than hollow claims to common sense or a belief that you must have provided evidence, therefore you did, even if there is none to be seen.

Alas, unless you provide backing directly from good sources of reference, you should understand that people will take all your claims as a matter of personal opinion. It is inevitable.

But wrong. If I say Elayne did X, I do not mean, in my opinion Elayne did X, I mean she did X. I could track down a reference to her doing X if one was wanted, if it was felt to be necessary, but it is not a matter of personal interpretation, it is a fact.

 

Her business within Cairhien could be concluded within a few hours, and if needed she could be recalled within minutes. That would be a more accurate summation of my position. She arrived, was crowned, and told the Cairhienin to gather their forces to leave for the FoM. Granted, my position might not always have been stated as clearly as it could have been, hence the clarification here. What we saw her do would not take long, and she can be recalled at short notice. Do you dispute any of this? Focussing on side issues while missing the genral thrust, as you do here, does not strengthen your point. The issue is not how many hours she spent in Cairhien, it is was it a bad idea to go? Given the advantages to going, the fact she can be recalled if she has to be, the unlikelihood of her being needed because her capital has been attacked that very night, etc., these are all relevant considerations in deciding whether or not it was a bad idea. You just say it wasn't common sense or good judgement, providing no reasoning, say no ruler would do it, providing no support, and dodge the main points against you.

 

The part in bold is from the books, you say?

Well, she didn't sneak off to Cairhien in the middle of the night, she left with an honour guard of 100 people, after having made clear her plans to take the throne. There are Kinswomen in Caemlyn who are able to Travel. So, if her location is known and people can Travel there, then she can indeed be recalled within minutes. So, yes, that is in the books, not personal interpretation. As for her business there, she shows up, parades through the streets, takes the throne, and tells people to muster their armies for TG, and they are leaving for the FoM. That is from the books again. So I am quite certain this is not my personal opinion.

 

While not everything I say can be taken for fact, there is a difference between facts and opinions, and I use both. Therefore the facts I use can be taken for facts, and the opinions I use can be taken for my opinions, backed up by relevant facts where possible. On the other hand, you might want to review some of your old posts before you reply: "The ruler does not leave her/his post at any given time, till the crisis has passed. And that's a fact." But of course, you're not claiming that fact is something you know for a fact. That fact is just your opinion. And that's a fact. In my opinion.

 

Oh, I see now, how convenient eh?

Yes, I find it very convenient to make use of facts and opinions. You attempt to do the same, but as you have already admitted I have a better grasp of the relevant facts than you. Everyone on here does it. I do not like to say "in my opinion", because I think I generally make it quite clear what is fact and what opinion, and if people are unsure as to which is which I am quite willing to clarify, therefore that particular phrase is redundant. I wouldn't use your particular metaphor about snakes (I'm not a huge fan of metaphors), and I'm not convinced it's accurate. But my debating style is gentlemanly and sportsmanlike.

 

I take it you have evidence to support that opinion of yours. As I've already pointed out, the Waygate is thought to be secure, so even if Elayne knows of it it is a non-factor, as it has been guarded against. Also, no-one has yet contested by comments on the deficiencies of launching a full-scale invasion via Waygate.

 

Mr Ares, now you have made me LMAO!

 

Do you know how many posts in this very thread include the same opinion about Elayne not knowing about the waygate in Caemlyn? Please, do go and tell this to all those who have also said the very same thing, since I'm in no way different, special, above or below them. Besides, are you implying that Elayne did know there was a waygate?

The Waygate is felt secure. So if Elayne knew about it (given that it is guarded, it is a distinct probability) then she felt it secure, and if she didn't know about it, then she can't be blamed for not taking further precautions.

[randsc]

Outside. Right now. Get some fresh air.

 

Or sex. Get some.

 

Jesus, people.

[folkstyle]

I take it you have evidence to support that opinion of yours. As I've already pointed out, the Waygate is thought to be secure, so even if Elayne knows of it it is a non-factor, as it has been guarded against. Also, no-one has yet contested by comments on the deficiencies of launching a full-scale invasion via Waygate.

 

Mr Ares, now you have made me LMAO!

 

Do you know how many posts in this very thread include the same opinion about Elayne not knowing about the waygate in Caemlyn? Please, do go and tell this to all those who have also said the very same thing, since I'm in no way different, special, above or below them. Besides, are you implying that Elayne did know there was a waygate?

The Waygate is felt secure. So if Elayne knew about it (given that it is guarded, it is a distinct probability) then she felt it secure, and if she didn't know about it, then she can't be blamed for not taking further precautions.

 

So because Elayne didn't know (if she didn't know) about the waygate then she isn't to blame for not taking further precautions, but even though Mat didn't know what was in the letter he is to blame for not warning Elayne? Those are your two opinions, but they contradict each other.

 

And don't tell me that Mat is at fault because he knew the letter was important because we've already discussed this, Verin never says it's important and even if she had Elayne was still given warning of an invasion which makes defense of the city important. So even if they are both "important" you're saying Elayne gets a pass for not knowing, but Mat doesn't.

 

Edited for quotation correction

[Darth Krewl]

Outside. Right now. Get some fresh air.

 

Or sex. Get some.

 

Jesus, people.

 

Careful now, randsc. You don't want to alienate Mr "don't-put-a-dot-here-or-I'll-flip-you-ill-mannered-sob"" Ares, now.

 

Oh, I forgot, he did claim that, since his intelligence sets him so high above the rest of us, he doesn't get alienated.

[Durinax]

So because Elayne didn't know (if she didn't know) about the waygate then she isn't to blame for not taking further precautions, but even though Mat didn't know what was in the letter he is to blame for not warning Elayne? Those are your two opinions, but they contradict each other.

 

And don't tell me that Mat is at fault because he knew the letter was important because we've already discussed this, Verin never says it's important and even if she had Elayne was still given warning of an invasion which makes defense of the city important. So even if they are both "important" you're saying Elayne gets a pass for not knowing, but Mat doesn't.

 

Edited for quotation correction

I dont blaim anyone really. the only one who can be blaimed is Moridin.

[Agelmar]

It is not obvious that the attack is occuring in Elayne's absence. All we see is Talmanes rousing the Band, and Olver getting his knife. And Caemlyn burning.

That Olver won Snakes and Foxes is highly suggestive, though not certain, in placing this at the time Mat escaped the Tower of Ghenjei, on the day before the meeting at Merrilor. Elayne herself took the quick jaunt to Cairhien to be crowned and then headed to Merrilor herself; while she can surely return instantaneously (barring a dreamspike), she's almost certainly still there at the time the invasion begins.

 

She cannot return instantaneously. Someone has to realize that Caemlyn is being attacked, that information has to travel to the palace, someone at the palace has to send the message to Elayne by gateway (which requires finding her), once through the gateway that messenger has to find her in the camp, she has to marshall her troops, someone has to create a gateway, she has to move her forces through the gateway, and she has to attack from the spot her forces are gated into. All of those will take time and all represent a potential bottleneck*, and with the Trollocs exiting the Waygate into New Caemlyn, hours matter. Hopefully she has plans in place to ensure the above run as smoothly as possible, but Elayne hasn't shown herself to be one of the stronger characters when it comes to either contingency planning or adjusting her plans on the fly.

 

*E.g., what if the Kin on duty in the gateway room is killed by a Gray Man?

[Agelmar]

Regarding the 'Is Two Rivers a part of Andor?' question:

 

Lines on a map, history, etc. are entirely irrelevant. There is no moral or legal arbiter. It's a matter of force or negotiation. The only question is whether Elayne holds or can take back the Two Rivers. Neither was true. She didn't have any leverage. I don't think she ever recognized this. Morgase, on the other hand, did, which facilitated Elayne reaching the best agreement possible given her situation.

[Durinax]

Regarding the 'Is Two Rivers a part of Andor?' question:

 

Lines on a map, history, etc. are entirely irrelevant. There is no moral or legal arbiter. It's a matter of force or negotiation. The only question is whether Elayne holds or can take back the Two Rivers. Neither was true. She didn't have any leverage. I don't think she ever recognized this. Morgase, on the other hand, did, which facilitated Elayne reaching the best agreement possible given her situation.

Elayne knew she couldnt afford to fight perrin, I think she would have to be the stupidest person in the history of rulers (fictional and real) to fnot realize that. I think she went about it that way to make her bargaining position stronger.

[Agelmar]

Regarding the 'Is Two Rivers a part of Andor?' question:

 

Lines on a map, history, etc. are entirely irrelevant. There is no moral or legal arbiter. It's a matter of force or negotiation. The only question is whether Elayne holds or can take back the Two Rivers. Neither was true. She didn't have any leverage. I don't think she ever recognized this. Morgase, on the other hand, did, which facilitated Elayne reaching the best agreement possible given her situation.

Elayne knew she couldnt afford to fight perrin, I think she would have to be the stupidest person in the history of rulers (fictional and real) to fnot realize that. I think she went about it that way to make her bargaining position stronger.

 

That's possile. Unfortunately, we can't tell without Elayne or (even better Morgase's POV, but while she's proving to be a terrible member of the Green Ajah she's been quite politally savvy.

[blazetheearth]

Regarding the 'Is Two Rivers a part of Andor?' question:

 

Lines on a map, history, etc. are entirely irrelevant. There is no moral or legal arbiter. It's a matter of force or negotiation. The only question is whether Elayne holds or can take back the Two Rivers. Neither was true. She didn't have any leverage. I don't think she ever recognized this. Morgase, on the other hand, did, which facilitated Elayne reaching the best agreement possible given her situation.

Elayne knew she couldnt afford to fight perrin, I think she would have to be the stupidest person in the history of rulers (fictional and real) to fnot realize that. I think she went about it that way to make her bargaining position stronger.

 

That's possile. Unfortunately, we can't tell without Elayne or (even better Morgase's POV, but while she's proving to be a terrible member of the Green Ajah she's been quite politally savvy.

 

I can't say that she's been a terrible member of the Greens, about average I should say. None of the Green Ajah have really lived up to the title of 'Battle Ajah', even the Green Ajah Head, Adelorna, said the same thing during the WT attack by the Seanchan. If we look back through the books, the Accepted who were posing as Green have done as much (if not a lot more) as any other full AS of the Green. I definintely agree that the TR being part of Andor is a matter of force or negotiation, and no Queen for over a hundred years has had enough force to make sure the TR paid their taxes, and the TR did not have the force to keep Andorans out. Things have changed and any person (ruler or subject) that fails to recognize that fact is just being stubborn and wool-headed. Elayne was one of these people until Morgase spoke up and stopped her, made her take the time to think about "force vs. negotiation". Once it was pointed out to her she chose negotiation, because she realized force would not work for her. Even if she did have the forces to attack the TR (which she could not have done successfully even with double her current forces), the act of doing so might cost her the crown.

 

"You're doing a poor job of convincing me that you will accept my authority," Elayne snapped.

Not good, Faile thought, opening her mouth to jump in. A clash here would not serve them well.

Before she could speak, however, another voice cut in. "Daughter," Morgase said softly, drinking her tea. "if you plan to dance with ta'veren, be sure you know the proper steps. I've traveled with this man. I've seen the world bend around him; I've seen bitter enemies become his allies. To fight the Pattern itself is to try to move a mountain with a spoon."

Elayne hesitated, looking at her mother.

 

The next words from Elayne has are to ask what Perrin's demands are. Since her entire attitude changed almost immediately, and we know from her PoV's that her emotions are still in as much flux from her pregnancy as they have been for the past few books, it seems as though she had been hostile as a preemptive measure. She believed they would come with demands, and until both her mother's and Faile's reassurance, she thought (completely incorrectly) that by raising Manetheren's flag, Perrin meant to threaten her throne. Once her mother pointed out to her that Perrin was not hostile toward Elayne, she calmed down and began to make sense. Had she done some investigation on the matter prior to the meeting, her opening stance of hostility would not have been necessary, but we see no evidence of her sending people (like Dylin, or Brigette) to Whitebridge for a "feeling out" meeting in order to see what Perrin stance on certain issues were.