Elayne's Arc

[David Selig]

Yes, of course it's Elayne's fault that things are worse now in Andor than during most of Morgase's reign, it can't have anything to do with the Last Battle coming, the Pattern growing weaker, the Dark One touching the world, a Forsaken doing all he can to create chaos among the leadership of the country and all Darkfriends and Black Ajah members increasing their activity big time. Nope, it's all Elayne's fault.

 

1. That's exactly the problem. She thanked him publicly like he did something good for andor like feeding the poor or saving the queen(which is funny cause she used to be the queen). But this is her mother...mother! She showed no emotion. No gratitude. She doesn't have to do it in public, she can thank him in private and really show that she means it, but no! she'd never do that because she has to act like she's the toughest most powerful person in the world and try to scare Perrin into doing what she wants. It's just stupid. If someone saved my mother I'd be thanking them vehemently. But whatever. it seems like some people are just not ever going to consider that she was rude and mean and the way she acted was completely unnecessary.

That's the way the politics works everywhere. Showing weakness when meeting with someone who's potentially a dangerous rival is a bad idea. Elayne has to think about her country first and Morgase would be the first to agree with that. But yes, if she didn't take Perrin "offscreen" after the negotiations were over, that is a bit rude, I agree with that. But it's not that big of a deal, she already thanked him publicly.

 

This is EXACTLY what i'm talking about. It's stupid. I'm so tired of it. I don't care if it is common practice or not. Perrin doesn't do it. She could have easily learned this from Morgase or Galad. And yeah we didn't see Morgase say much else about Perrin on screen, but if she didn't tell Elayne anything about him off-screen then that's just plain stupid on her part and on Elayne's part for not inquiring about information about Perrin. You've just hit what i'm talking about right on the head. "don't put yourself in debt" because it'll help your negotiations! This is total bull(I want to cuss so bad right now, but i'm pretty sure it's not allowed). He saved her mother. He earned the debt. She doesn't get the opportunity to give it to him.

"Don't put yourself in debt" is wrong, since that's exactly what Elayne did during the public part of the meeting. "Is there a boon you would ask in return for the gift you have given to Andor?"

 

And Perrin might not do politicking of this kind, but Faile certainly is not above it, she'd been taught all about it, she'd always pushed him to take what she sees as his rightful place as a powerful Lord and her thought process during the meeting shows she's not surprised by anything that happened and all this is to a normal procedure for this kind of negotiations. Perrin may be a simple straightforward kind of guy, but Faile is skilled politician. Morgase knew that and probably told her daughter.

[Darth Krewl]

Elayne did NOT bring chaos and civil war. The chaos and civil war were already brewing. Elayne's rule as of ToM is currently QUITE stable. She CAN'T do anything about the famine. That is the Dark One's fault, and nothing she can do can change it. She has done her best in the circumstances. Could you do any better? Famine is not her fault. It is the work of the Dark One and she is powerless to stop it. There is famine EVERYWHERE. The only reason why Perrin's troops are not suffering is because of Perrin being Ta'vern. She also did NOT bring hordes of Trollocs into Caemlyn. Are you accusing her of being a darkfriend? To her knowledge, there is no way a Trolloc can suddenly jump to Caemlyn. After all, it is assumed that the waygate is secured. Only Verin, and now Olver knows that it isn't so. How can you blame Elayne for preparing for something she wouldn't know about?

 

All your points are moot. Elayne did not bring any of those things into the country. The country was already brewing with those things before she arrived. She has been doing as much as she can on a shaky throne since TPoD. Half the country didn't even support, let alone listen to her till the end of KoD. What could she do? She can only do as much as she can within a limited amount of time. Since only ToM. That isn't a lot of time prepare. And anyway, the Chaos and the Civil war have vanished since the end of the KoD so that point isn't valid anymore anyway.

 

Elayne did not bring chaos and civil war, granted. She just facilitated the war in her ambition to take the throne, thus perpetuating chaos.

 

The famine is the Dark One's fault, granted. But no, famine isn't everywhere. And that isn't only around enlightened Rand or the Ta'veren. Seanchan occupied territories are very stable and orderly. Rand saw this during his trip to Ebou Dar, which led him to question his abilities as a ruler. It's not Ta'verness, it's exactly what Herid Fel told Rand about the key to defeating Shai'tan: it's called belief and order; the opposites of chaos. Again, Elayne perpetuated chaos in Andor. Nobody forced her to choose her ways. She did that by herself.

 

The country was already in dire straits when Elayne took over, yes. Alas, that was the risk that taking the throne implied; the price that Elayne had to pay to stake her claim as Daughter-heir of Andor. She knew how hot the spot was before she took over. She had to plan ahead and cover all her bases, which she didn't. What's more, if it hadn't been for Dyelin, Elayne would've been toast and even she admits it.

 

Am I accusing Elayne of being a Darkfriend? Of course not hah hah! Where do you get that?

 

Well, at any rate, I am accusing her of unknowingly doing the Dark One's work by perpetuating war and chaos in Andor, by ignoring a direct threat made by an actual Darkfriend AS and by wishing a Ta'veren and one of the Dragon Reborn's closest allies and friends dead.

 

I can blame her for not preparing, because though she had warning of the attack beforehand, she downplayed it, instead of ordering a thorough investigation of the facts and deep analysis of her strengths and weaknesses, in an effort to try and diminish any potential risks, like any good, experienced and smart ruler would, since none of them would ever take threats to their rule lightly and discard them offhand, like she did.

 

What could she do? Desperate times demand desperate measures. Once she came into possession of the throne, she had different choices that went all the way from a rigid state of martial law for the duration of the upcoming crisis (or are you forgetting all about that little "skirmish" known as the Last Battle, for which Elayne doesn't seem to be preparing for at all?) to much more lax measures, such as securing alliances with any and all allies that she could find (such as the White Tower, Rand-controlled nations, etc.).

 

Choices were aplenty, yet she chose to concentrate her time on hunting down Black Ajah (only to let her stupidity help them escape, getting stabbed in the process), maneuvering to secure her rule on the Two Rivers and expand it over Cairhien, instead of making certain that the threat warned to her by the Black Sister was as empty as she suspected it.

 

Like and defend Elayne all you want, that's your choice and preference and I respect that. All I know is that, unless she fights back to regain Caemlyn and wins, history will see the girl as the queen who lost Andor to the Shadow. Fair or unfair, that is how people tend to see things.

 

Especially in the Randland, where the example of the Dragon should suffice to demonstrate how harshly people are judged because of their failure and regardless of their triumphs. At least, Lews Therin did seal the Bore. How has anything done by Elayne helped Andor at this point in the story?

 

And finally, if all my points are moot, then why are you pursuing this debate? Could I do better? We're discussing fantasy here, Arani. Not a matter of life and death in the real world, so relax and take it easy, my friend. You're more than welcome to debate me on anything, anytime you wish. Just try to keep it respectful, okay? No need to use caps (yell) :D

[f3llyn]

How could she have prepared for something she could have never have predicted? Do tell.

 

But I do agree she will be blamed in history if Caemlyn falls. Perhaps this attack will change the future that Aviendha saw? That future can't happen if their is no place for Elaynes children's children to rule from. That's something nobody has ever proposed as far as I know.

[Darth Krewl]

How could she have prepared for something she could have never have predicted? Do tell.

 

But I do agree she will be blamed in history if Caemlyn falls. Perhaps this attack will change the future that Aviendha saw? That future can't happen if their is no place for Elaynes children's children to rule from. That's something nobody has ever proposed as far as I know.

 

It's not prediction, I'm talking about. It's warning. Elayne was warned that an attack was coming. She just decided to dismiss it as the black sister's attempt to unsettle her and buy some time for the Black's colleagues to rescue her. She thought the warning a vain, empty threat and didn't even do anything to have the remote or unlikely possibility investigated.

 

It's not preparation, I'm talking about. It's prevention. She should have ordered a thorough investigation, as well as an in-depth analysis of possible ways to attack/besiege Caemlyn and reduce/prevent them to the best of her abilities. She did nothing of the kind. A wise ruler would know that, after receiving warning (even if you see it as nothing more than an empty threat and a ruse) contemplation of any eventuality and developing potential preventive or emergency countermeasures will never hurt.

 

Had Elayne had no warning whatsoever, then I'd be the first to admit that she couldn't have even tried to prevent being caught with her pants down. But there was warning. It was just her youth and inexperience that led her to dismiss it. At least based on my understanding of Jordan's development of his characters.

 

IMO, he tried to portray them as exceptional in many ways, but clumsy and prone to mistakes, just like any human being, based on several factors, such as age, personality, experience, personal views, etc. And the fact that all the younger characters have made major mistakes 'cause of their age, inexperience, etc., is not lost on me.

 

Hence the reason why the Forsaken wanted Elayne raised as Amyrlin. For her youth and overall lack of experience. Ditto here: remove Morgase and have the kid take the throne. Makes perfect sense from that perspective, when you think about it. It has Jordan's MO written all over it.

 

Concerning Aviendha's visions, Caemlyn could still be rescued and rebuilt, just like Gondor was saved from Sauron's forces in LotR to see Aragorn crowned. So, in that sense, Aviendha's visions may still come true. Though, personally, I see those visions as a warning on a potential future outcome and not as something etched in stone.

[wvlr2]

WOW. The logic on this thread could give a person whiplash!

 

Ravin who threw Andor into Chaos is not accountable, but Elayne who is clearing everything up - in record time - is responsible!

 

Elayne is responsible for acting like the Queen, but she should not chastize a rebal who raises banners and names himself Lord of part of her domain.

 

She should have taken longer to prepare for her claim (which would have delayed the resolution) but she should have resolved it sooner. It seems to me she got to it as soon as she finnished using the Bowl of the Winds which was another critical item on her "to do list" that directly effected her kingdom.

 

She should instantly know that Mat (Who always acts a clown, was a "Toy" for Tynan and dressed like a bum for his meeting with her) is a super general?

 

She should pay more attention to getting ready for the LB, but consolidationg the leadership and armies of Andor and Carieen behind the Dragon Reborn in record time somehow is not doing just that.

 

She recieves intel from the BA, that an attack is comming so she beefs up all her border forces and sends out a call to muster everyone "including old men and boys" in both Andor and Carieen - but she is not doing enough. YES she messed up on the Waygate - but there are MANY responsible for that failure. Most notable Rand who knew about it & had a weave that specifically killed Shadowspawn. He could easily have adjusted the weave to kill in 5 minutes instead of 2 hours.

 

 

 

 

Elayne does irratate me, but not for any of the things mentioned above.

 

What bothers me is that she continually gets herself into sever trouble by not taking proper precautions. All her incidents with the BA were inproperly planned and implemented. Time and time again. Sometimes it is necessary to take risks, but by now she should know that she needs several layers of backups. They lost the BA that they captured in Eby Dar, and in Andor she let it happen again by not having multiple layers of security on them. THAT IS BAD.

 

 

Also, she is giving land away to her rivals in Andor and Carieen but what about her supporters? It seems to be better to be her rival than her supporter. And what about Dyelin who has supported her from the start!

 

It seems very backwards to me!!

[f3llyn]

It's not prediction, I'm talking about. It's warning. Elayne was warned that an attack was coming. She just decided to dismiss it as the black sister's attempt to unsettle her and buy some time for the Black's colleagues to rescue her. She thought the warning a vain, empty threat and didn't even do anything to have the remote or unlikely possibility investigated.

 

It's not preparation, I'm talking about. It's prevention. She should have ordered a thorough investigation, as well as an in-depth analysis of possible ways to attack/besiege Caemlyn and reduce/prevent them to the best of her abilities. She did nothing of the kind. A wise ruler would know that, after receiving warning (even if you see it as nothing more than an empty threat and a ruse) contemplation of any eventuality and developing potential preventive or emergency countermeasures will never hurt.

 

Had Elayne had no warning whatsoever, then I'd be the first to admit that she couldn't have even tried to prevent being caught with her pants down. But there was warning. It was just her youth and inexperience that led her to dismiss it. At least based on my understanding of Jordan's development of his characters.

 

IMO, he tried to portray them as exceptional in many ways, but clumsy and prone to mistakes, just like any human being, based on several factors, such as age, personality, experience, personal views, etc. And the fact that all the younger characters have made major mistakes 'cause of their age, inexperience, etc., is not lost on me.

 

Hence the reason why the Forsaken wanted Elayne raised as Amyrlin. For her youth and overall lack of experience. Ditto here: remove Morgase and have the kid take the throne. Makes perfect sense from that perspective, when you think about it. It has Jordan's MO written all over it.

 

Concerning Aviendha's visions, Caemlyn could still be rescued and rebuilt, just like Gondor was saved from Sauron's forces in LotR to see Aragorn crowned. So, in that sense, Aviendha's visions may still come true. Though, personally, I see those visions as a warning on a potential future outcome and not as something etched in stone.

The only people who really knew about the waygate in Caemlyn and in the best position to do something about were Rand and Loial. No one else would have even thought to check it if it was mentioned that Caemlyn was going to be attacked.

 

Verin fubbed up by thinking that Mat would be "curious" enough to open a letter that was given to him by an Aes Sedai. She should have known better after being near Mat more than just about any other Aes Sedai besides Elayne.

 

Elayne did everything she could with the information that she had at the time. So again, if there is blame to given out others should be included as well. But I do agree that since Elayne is the ruler in Caemlyn that the fault will fall squarely on her shoulders.

 

And I agree that what Aviendha saw was a warning and not 100% sure to happen. If for no other reason than we saw it. If it were to happen that way there would be no point in having the last book.

[Darth Krewl]

The only people who really knew about the waygate in Caemlyn and in the best position to do something about were Rand and Loial. No one else would have even thought to check it if it was mentioned that Caemlyn was going to be attacked.

 

Verin fubbed up by thinking that Mat would be "curious" enough to open a letter that was given to him by an Aes Sedai. She should have known better after being near Mat more than just about any other Aes Sedai besides Elayne.

 

Elayne did everything she could with the information that she had at the time. So again, if there is blame to given out others should be included as well. But I do agree that since Elayne is the ruler in Caemlyn that the fault will fall squarely on her shoulders.

 

And I agree that what Aviendha saw was a warning and not 100% sure to happen. If for no other reason than we saw it. If it were to happen that way there would be no point in having the last book.

 

Oh, I agree wholeheartedly that the blame on the attack falls on the shoulders of others, rather than Elayne. Though, why she doesn't have any knowledge whatsoever on the waygate found in Caemlyn escapes my comprehension. She is, after all, supposed to be Aes Sedai. So she should have known...or not been raised to the shawl, 'cause the girl clearly seems to be missing lots of information concerning Perrin's and Mat's importance as Ta'veren, their exploits (IMO, just as commendable as her pal Egwene's, if not more so 'cause neither can channel), the waygate, the Prophecies, etc.

 

How come Perrin does keep up to speed with developments? I know Balwer is the elite spy in the WoT universe and Perrin's very lucky to have the man work for him. How about Elayne? She named her clerk her master spy. Her clerk...an accountant! No wonder her e&e network is so faulty lol

 

At any rate, I'd also like to point something important out, by comparing Elayne to another queen who was Aes Sedai, Ethenielle of Manetheren. While the former's been running wild, playing at Aes Sedai (neglecting her duties as Daughter-heir of Andor in the process), the latter kept her position and ruled over her people, while Aemon went to war. Ethenielle only intervened after all was lost, exacting her vengeance on those who had destroyed Manetheren. Now, that was a queen who knew her place and who put the interests of her people, before her personal ones.

 

I believe balance is an integral part of Jordan's message and Elayne is ANYTHING but balanced. Again, I blame this on her youth and inexperience, but she should know that you can't have the best of both worlds. She should have done as Ethenielle and stayed in place, prepared for the worst as queen of Andor, instead of running all over the place, to find the Bowl, stake her claim to Cairhien, etc. departing only to the Fields of Merrilor, as every other ruler in the Randland.

 

I didn't see Sisnera running wild, since Rand crowned him king of Tear. I didn't see the Borderland rulers running wild, but seeking the Dragon Reborn in a place where they felt protected, till they could confirm that Rand was no false Dragon. Only Elayne is this reckless and naive, believing she can do it all.

 

So, IMO, what she's got coming to her is a very painful, but well-deserved lesson. Experience is a harsh teacher and I believe Jordan was wise to plot this the way he did, precisely to make this point.

[Kaznen]

Something I've decide is one of her problems concerning Mat and Perrin is the "Buddy's Girlfriend" problem. She thinks just because Rand is her boyfriend she can treat his best friends however she wants thinking Rand will automatically support her. She also wants Rand to do do what she thinks is best instead of what he thinks, such as submitting to Egwene, even though many non dragonsworn AS think that would be a bad idea.

 

Out of the five women who love ta'veren she is the only who thinks like this. Avi, Min, Faile, and Tuon/Fortuna want their man to be the best they can be. Elayne wants her man to be how she thinks he should.

[Jack Shaftoe]

She should instantly know that Mat (Who always acts a clown, was a "Toy" for Tynan and dressed like a bum for his meeting with her) is a super general?

 

Well, she currently does seem to know that. I am not sure how exactly she finally realized the truth, considering she has never seen Mat in command during a large scale battle but there was something like "Every soldier of the Band is worth ten random mercenaries" in Elayne's PoV, IIRC. As for not realizing that long ago, I tend to blame Egwene who was there when Moiraine of all people praised Mat's prowess as a general at the end of TFoH, she was there for the big battle against the Shaido and still in LoC she seems to think Rand just made Mat a general on a whim...

[Darth Krewl]

Something I've decide is one of her problems concerning Mat and Perrin is the "Buddy's Girlfriend" problem. She thinks just because Rand is her boyfriend she can treat his best friends however she wants thinking Rand will automatically support her. She also wants Rand to do do what she thinks is best instead of what he thinks, such as submitting to Egwene, even though many non dragonsworn AS think that would be a bad idea.

 

Out of the five women who love ta'veren she is the only who thinks like this. Avi, Min, Faile, and Tuon/Fortuna want their man to be the best they can be. Elayne wants her man to be how she thinks he should.

 

These are a couple of excellent points.

 

The "buddy's g/f" thing could be what is getting in the way of her showing Mat and Perrin with the respect they both, not only deserve, but have earned through their deeds. Also, buddies of Rand or not, Mat's dragons are his and the Two Rivers should be Perrin's. Period. She has the right to get her piece of the pie, but not eat all of it, IMO.

 

Second point, by wanting to bond Rand as a Warder (independent from the multiple lovers bond she laid on Aviendha, Min, Rand and her) it would seem clear that Elayne has always wanted for Rand to bend to her will, regardless on how stupid it may be to even fantasize about anyone wanting the Dragon Reborn as a bodyguard. She's not looking for him to be the best man he can be, but the best man according to her perception. Agreed.

 

It'll be interesting to see how she behaves when Rand and Egwene face off concerning the breaking of the seals. That's another nice pickle Elayne's managed to get herself in. What will Rand's reaction be, if/when one of his lovers turns on him and supports Egwene...

[Kaznen]

If she tries to use the warder bond to bend her to her will...

It will be intresting.

[f3llyn]

If she tries to use the warder bond to bend her to her will...

It will be intresting.

If you mean Rand we already know that won't work on him. Alanna said it was like trying to uproot an oak tree with her bare hands or some such. I take that to mean it's all but impossible.

[Darth Krewl]

I agree. I don't think the bond would work on Rand for this purpose. Especially now that he's become "enlightened".

[Ltsegarra]

On Elayne and the Throne of Andor...

 

As we see in the ending of Tower of Midnight, just as Elayne has consolidated both the Carhein andAndor thrones, Camelyn is attacked via The way gates by trollocs and others. I believe as Elayne earlier surmised she'll have to deal with two fronts of wars. First and for most the Seachan will engage Andor one side and the trollocs and I believe the "Blacktower" on the other.

Andor fighting the Seachan is important for one Reason only. Andor will be the only unified nation to probably be strong enough to AT LEAST stop the Seanchan from moving further inland. Using the large Andorian army, Perrins Army, and new "dragon weapons" shell be able to HOLD only from both fronts. Logically she can't win if we're to believe in something called the "Rands Peace".

As the black tower is located on Andorian soil, it's primarily Elaynes problem when the rouge Ash'aman/dread lords declare themselves. I think Taim is leading the attack on Camelyn directly with a his dread lords. At some point, I believe that foolishly Grandel or another forsaken will attempt to control Toun and the Seachan, or may attack her armies directly splitting the confrontations on three points, forcing Toun to side with Andor/Elayne and Rand, in an alliance.

From this point forward the idea that any of the the good side (and I place the Seachan in this group) wins or beats another section is foolish. The fight is with the Dark One and his armies.

 

 

As an aside...I believe the final novel will not finished with Tarmon Gaidon, but have a few chapters settling down and establising Aviendhas prophecies and how things will be left.

[White_star]

Something I've decide is one of her problems concerning Mat and Perrin is the "Buddy's Girlfriend" problem. She thinks just because Rand is her boyfriend she can treat his best friends however she wants thinking Rand will automatically support her. She also wants Rand to do do what she thinks is best instead of what he thinks, such as submitting to Egwene, even though many non dragonsworn AS think that would be a bad idea.

 

Out of the five women who love ta'veren she is the only who thinks like this. Avi, Min, Faile, and Tuon/Fortuna want their man to be the best they can be. Elayne wants her man to be how she thinks he should.

 

These are a couple of excellent points.

 

...

Second point, by wanting to bond Rand as a Warder (independent from the multiple lovers bond she laid on Aviendha, Min, Rand and her) it would seem clear that Elayne has always wanted for Rand to bend to her will, regardless on how stupid it may be to even fantasize about anyone wanting the Dragon Reborn as a bodyguard. She's not looking for him to be the best man he can be, but the best man according to her perception. Agreed.

 

Well her best friend IS Egwene so it's not surprising she adopts some of her traits among whatever ideas she grew-up with.

 

 

It'll be interesting to see how she behaves when Rand and Egwene face off concerning the breaking of the seals. That's another nice pickle Elayne's managed to get herself in. What will Rand's reaction be, if/when one of his lovers turns on him and supports Egwene...

I think she has more faith in Rand then Ewgene and she respects Nynaeve's thoughts more who has even more faith in him. I guess I can only hope she will think before blindly follow Egwene in any "action" she means to use to "try" to stop him.

[f3llyn]

Elayne is much to fierce and stubborn to just do whatever Egwene tells her. That much should be considered a fact. And if Egwene tells her to oppose Rand in any way? I think we'll see some fireworks of one kind or another if that happens. I think at the end of ToM Elayne still doesn't really know what Egwene is up to.

[Darth Krewl]

Well her best friend IS Egwene so it's not surprising she adopts some of her traits among whatever ideas she grew-up with.

 

Not a very good idea, if you ask me.

 

In all fairness, I give Egwene credit for the way she handled herself during her time in captivity and I commend her for her decisions for the White Tower. But therein lies the problem...

 

IMO, the girl's not interested in the common good, but only has the WT's interests at heart. And she's proven to be as ruthless as she deems necessary and more than willing to go against her own friends and allies if/when she feels that their advise goes against the good of the Tower. She's a zealot in this sense and I believe doing as she says would be the worst possible choice anyone could make.

 

That being said, you can't put a friend over a romantic partner. It's not natural. Some people have even fought their families when they're at odds with their partner. But either way, we're talking about an extraordinary situation where all kinds of personal feelings and allegiances have to be put aside for the good of all. Regardless on which side Elayne decides to support, IMO.

 

I think she has more faith in Rand then Ewgene and she respects Nynaeve's thoughts more who has even more faith in him. I guess I can only hope she will think before blindly follow Egwene in any "action" she means to use to "try" to stop him.

 

To me, Elayne and Egwene are TWoT's version of Dumb & Dumber, so I do have my doubts that Elayne will do the right thing (like Nynaeve seems to be ready to do). So, for the sake of all, I do hope you're right, too.

 

Either way, I think we all know what Rand will do: "you're not backing me on this? Well, screw you! I'll do it anyways" heh heh...

[blazetheearth]

My only real problem w/ Elayne as a monarch and specifically Queen of Andor, is that despite her efforts since taking the throne she took waaaaay too long to go to Camelyn to take the throne. Mat and the Band Travel to Salidar to tell her that her country (the realm she is Daughter-Heir for) is monarch-less and that she is needed in Camelyn.

 

What was does she do?

 

Runs to Ebou Dar w/ Nyn to look for the Bowl. Granted we (as readers) know how important it will be, but she had no real clue what would be involved in using it or whether it even could be used when she went after it.

 

She ABANDONED her people in a time when her realm needed her the most (i.e. just after losing the ruling Queen and are frightened by trollocs appearing from the palace and fighting between them and the Aiel in the streets of the New City, etc.) and she wants more adventure instead of going home and doing her duty to her people.

 

Some will argue that getting the Bowl corrected the weather, and was therefore more important than quelling a few fears in Camelyn, but my point is not the outcome. No one can argue that her part in that was minor, but SHE doesn't KNOW what will happen in the search of the Bowl. She "believes" but that is NOT the same as "knowing". She "believed" that the Bowl would be more important, but she "knows" that her place and her duty is in Camelyn. She chose that belief over the things she knows she can correct and help.

 

As Daughter-Heir, her DUTY required her to go back and take up the throne and leave the search for the Bowl to other AS, but she ignores her duty to her people and instead goes looking for adventure. Even Brigette feels that she has been too much of an adventure seeker. I don't think she deserves the throne or the loyalty of her citizens. I would have loved it if Mat had said something in front of Dyelin about how "when I came to Salidar to tell you about Morgause (sp?) before we went to Ebou Dar...". One has to wonder if the nobles that supported her during the Civil War would have been as supportive if they found out that she left Camelyn and Andor to fend for itself so she could hare off to EB.

 

As far as her treatment of Perrin and Mat in ToM, why would anyone question her thinking about killing Perrin after he save her mother. After all, it's only her mother's life, and Mat has saved Elayne own life twice, but right after Mat did it the second time, her next action is to USE Mat to bully the Sea Folk into leaving Ebou Dar and going to the Kin's farm.

 

Personally, and it may just be because she is just a good politician, I have disliked her in almost every scene since she remembered who Thom was, it seemed at that point what brains she had flew out of her head, and when they came back she was a different person. I hope that the attack on Camelyn leads to an epiphany for her, because I did really like her in the first few books. I just cannot respect her as a person and definitely not as a ruler, maybe I could if we didn't get her PoV and see how often her choices are made without a thought or care as to how she hurts those that she uses, and how quickly her first thoughts are 'How can I used this person'.

 

Ok, I'm ready. I know the arguments are coming.

 

 

 

 

edited for double negative

[Kaznen]

If she tries to use the warder bond to bend her to her will...

It will be intresting.

If you mean Rand we already know that won't work on him. Alanna said it was like trying to uproot an oak tree with her bare hands or some such. I take that to mean it's all but impossible.

That's exactly what I mean. I think Egwene is going to end up humiliated by Rand at ToM. In front of all the Kings, generals, soldiers, AM, and and V.I.P.s she is going to be taken down a few rungs and by extension the WT image of an invincible institution will crumble. And I think Elayne will help with that put down by her assuredness about Perrin and her trying to compel Rand to her will in front of everyone.

 

All the non AS at FoM will see the WT for 3k+ years has been FoS.

[Durinax]

I actually think that elayne is on the fence, that she will be the one to actually convince egwene to hear out his plan in a neutral way. And once egwene tells her to go to hell becuase she is the amyrlin and thus a genious, Elayne will be totally on rands side and support him as he strips the AS of all their false pretenses and reveals that they have been an epic fail especially to the borderlanders

[Mr Ares]

Rand, Loial, Verin, and Mat all share equal blame in Caemlyns invasion if you want to go that rout, each of them could have taken different actions that would have prevented it.

 

Rand and Loial because they forgot to do anything about the waygate in Caemlyn.

Actually, they didn't. It is stated in KoD that the Caemlyn Waygate has been dealt with. Verin's letter notes that it is felt to be secure, but it isn't. Precautions were taken, but they proved to be insufficient.

IIRC they only placed guards around/near it. Not nearly enough so there is still fault to go around. Anyways it doesn't matter, my point was that if you blame Elayne for something there was absolutely no possible way she could have predicted, others share the blame for it as well. Some more so than others. Any one of the people I mentioned could have prevented the Caemlyn attack and yet the blame for it falls on Elayne?

Oh, I quite agree. Mat had the information but refused to act on it due to his paranoia. Verin tried to convince him, but didn't do enough to stress the importance, and how it shouldn't be a huge problem for him. Those two are the biggest failures here.

 

 

Now, in addition to Mat, there's also Elayne's thoughts on wanting to kill Perrin. Which, IMO, is much, much worse than the way she treats Mat. To even consider killing a guy who is close to Rand (meaning that he must be an ally and not the dangerous rebel threat that she deems him to be) w/o trying to find out what the hell happened in the Two Rivers that would make them raise the Manetheren and Wolf banners is, frankly, completely idiotic.

She didn't want to kill Perrin. She acknowledged it might be a simple solution, but then thought that of course she wasn't going to do it. And he is a dangerous rebel threat.

 

. . .

 

I had a hard time finding my quotes in your post. I read them, but I'm not gonna paste them here. Too much trouble separating them from all the other posts.

 

So I'd pin all that Rhavin did on Morgase but, taking into consideration the order and stability that I had during most of her reign, I would say that Elayne bringing chaos, civil war, strife, hunger (if not outright famine) and now, hordes and more hordes of damned Trollocs to my capital is the worst rule of Andor in a long time, if not ever.

 

Because my point has been the state of affairs in Andor since Elayne took over, regardless on whose fault it is. So, Andor was already headed into civil war, chaos and famine, as per the order "let the Lord of Chaos rule". Fine. Either way, that doesn't mean that Elayne has failed miserably as ruler, since she hasn't been able to bring any order, peace and stability to Andor since she took over.

That is just completely not true. She arrived to find her country beset by civil war and strife, then stopped it. She brought peace and stability as of the end of KoD. She has thought about securing her realm, and did so, and of improvements she plans to make to it in the long term, and is mustering forces for TG. I fail to see how Elayne can be considered a failure as a ruler, by any reasonable measure.

 

Mr. Ares - we're just going to have to disagree. We could go back and forth making our points, but it's not working. I read what you said, thought about it and then formed my statements after accepting some of the things you said and adding them into my considerations, but you don't seem to consider anything I say. If you're not even going to consider what the other person in the argument says then there's no point in even discussing it. So now I'm back to the fact that we'll just have to disagree. I will admit you have changed my mind on some subjects though :)

I did read your statements and take them into consideration, I just didn't agree with them. I can't say you changed my mind on anything, but you did give it a good try.

 

 

How could she have prepared for something she could have never have predicted? Do tell.

 

But I do agree she will be blamed in history if Caemlyn falls. Perhaps this attack will change the future that Aviendha saw? That future can't happen if their is no place for Elaynes children's children to rule from. That's something nobody has ever proposed as far as I know.

 

It's not prediction, I'm talking about. It's warning. Elayne was warned that an attack was coming. She just decided to dismiss it as the black sister's attempt to unsettle her and buy some time for the Black's colleagues to rescue her. She thought the warning a vain, empty threat and didn't even do anything to have the remote or unlikely possibility investigated.

Once again, completely untrue. She was warned of an attack, so increased border defences, a logical move. The Waygate was, per Verin's letter, "guarded, barricaded, and thought secure." Given that, she did take reasonable steps.

 

 

If she tries to use the warder bond to bend her to her will...

It will be intresting.

If you mean Rand we already know that won't work on him. Alanna said it was like trying to uproot an oak tree with her bare hands or some such. I take that to mean it's all but impossible.

Bear in mind that Rand was holding the Source when she tried it, and you can't Compel a man holding saidin.

 

 

My only real problem w/ Elayne as a monarch and specifically Queen of Andor, is that despite her efforts since taking the throne she took waaaaay too long to go to Camelyn to take the throne. Mat and the Band Travel to Salidar to tell her that her country (the realm she is Daughter-Heir for) is monarch-less and that she is needed in Camelyn.

 

What was does she do?

 

Runs to Ebou Dar w/ Nyn to look for the Bowl. Granted we (as readers) know how important it will be, but she had no real clue what would be involved in using it or whether it even could be used when she went after it.

The perpetual summer was something that could have caused massive casualties the longer it went on. Including killing off large numbers of Andorans. So securing the Bowl was important for Andor and the whole world, therefore Elayne cannot be considered negligent in her duties for making sure it is secured. As for why she had to do it herself, only two people went on the need walk in T'a'r - her and Nynaeve. If she didn't go, Nynaeve has to do it all alone. Two people searching improves their chances, therefore I would say she was wholly justified. I do not see how taking steps to prevent the apocalypse can be considered dereliction of duty unless you happen to be one of the four horsemen.

 

I actually think that elayne is on the fence, that she will be the one to actually convince egwene to hear out his plan in a neutral way. And once egwene tells her to go to hell becuase she is the amyrlin and thus a genious, Elayne will be totally on rands side and support him as he strips the AS of all their false pretenses and reveals that they have been an epic fail especially to the borderlanders

Rand has a plan? Beyond unleash Shai'tan and then hope something will come to him?

[randsc]

I get a feeling that Elayne is as close as some of you boys have ever come to having a girlfriend.

[blazetheearth]

My only real problem w/ Elayne as a monarch and specifically Queen of Andor, is that despite her efforts since taking the throne she took waaaaay too long to go to Camelyn to take the throne. Mat and the Band Travel to Salidar to tell her that her country (the realm she is Daughter-Heir for) is monarch-less and that she is needed in Camelyn.

 

What was does she do?

 

Runs to Ebou Dar w/ Nyn to look for the Bowl. Granted we (as readers) know how important it will be, but she had no real clue what would be involved in using it or whether it even could be used when she went after it.

 

The perpetual summer was something that could have caused massive casualties the longer it went on. Including killing off large numbers of Andorans. So securing the Bowl was important for Andor and the whole world, therefore Elayne cannot be considered negligent in her duties for making sure it is secured. As for why she had to do it herself, only two people went on the need walk in T'a'r - her and Nynaeve. If she didn't go, Nynaeve has to do it all alone. Two people searching improves their chances, therefore I would say she was wholly justified. I do not see how taking steps to prevent the apocalypse can be considered dereliction of duty unless you happen to be one of the four horsemen.

 

 

As I pointed out later in the post, it doesn't matter that she turned out to have been needed to get the Bowl. That is faulty logic. At the time when she made the choice, she didn't KNOW for a fact (such as through a foretelling or Min's viewing, ect.) that she herself was necessary to the search. She wanted to be one of the ones to go, and she and Nyn tried to talk the AS into sending just the two of them to get it, which would have been as bad a fiasco as if she had not gone. I agree that storywise and Saving-the-world-wise that SHE HAD TO GO. Not disputing that.

 

My entire dispute is that she had absolutely NO WAY to KNOW that she would prove to be as necessary as she ended up being. She simply thought so and believed so, and so went of to find more adventure. But she KNEW her citizens needed a leader (other than Rand), she KNEW that her duty was to go back and help her people by assuming the throne. And she turned her back on what she KNEW and the obligations of duty that came with it, in order to follow what she believed and wanted. The fact that she turned out to be right is completely immaterial, because if she had been wrong most of the posters here would have blasted her for it. That fact is the ONLY reason people haven't blasted her for it before. Knowing what she knew then, her choice as a monarch-to-be was irresponsible. Later we find out that it was the right choice, but that does not make it a responsible decision when the decision was made.

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

I get a feeling that Elayne is as close as some of you boys have ever come to having a girlfriend.

 

And I get the feeling that some of you are extremely deluded.

 

My only real problem w/ Elayne as a monarch and specifically Queen of Andor, is that despite her efforts since taking the throne she took waaaaay too long to go to Camelyn to take the throne. Mat and the Band Travel to Salidar to tell her that her country (the realm she is Daughter-Heir for) is monarch-less and that she is needed in Camelyn.

 

What was does she do?

 

Runs to Ebou Dar w/ Nyn to look for the Bowl. Granted we (as readers) know how important it will be, but she had no real clue what would be involved in using it or whether it even could be used when she went after it.

 

The perpetual summer was something that could have caused massive casualties the longer it went on. Including killing off large numbers of Andorans. So securing the Bowl was important for Andor and the whole world, therefore Elayne cannot be considered negligent in her duties for making sure it is secured. As for why she had to do it herself, only two people went on the need walk in T'a'r - her and Nynaeve. If she didn't go, Nynaeve has to do it all alone. Two people searching improves their chances, therefore I would say she was wholly justified. I do not see how taking steps to prevent the apocalypse can be considered dereliction of duty unless you happen to be one of the four horsemen.

 

 

As I pointed out later in the post, it doesn't matter that she turned out to have been needed to get the Bowl. That is faulty logic. At the time when she made the choice, she didn't KNOW for a fact (such as through a foretelling or Min's viewing, ect.) that she herself was necessary to the search. She wanted to be one of the ones to go, and she and Nyn tried to talk the AS into sending just the two of them to get it, which would have been as bad a fiasco as if she had not gone. I agree that storywise and Saving-the-world-wise that SHE HAD TO GO. Not disputing that.

 

My entire dispute is that she had absolutely NO WAY to KNOW that she would prove to be as necessary as she ended up being. She simply thought so and believed so, and so went of to find more adventure. But she KNEW her citizens needed a leader (other than Rand), she KNEW that her duty was to go back and help her people by assuming the throne. *and so on*

 

And she knew that securing the bowl was more important than securing Andor. Obviously securing the fate of the world is more important that securing the fate of a nation, but just as obviously, some disagree.

[randsc]

Not really a great argument, that.

 

Securing Russia's supply of nuclear weapons, over which it has somewhat tenuous control, is more important than public sanitation in Belize.

 

But the President of Belize should address himself to the sanitation issue, not Russia's nukes.

 

There were others who could have gone after the Bowl in Elayne's place. She went because she wanted adventure.

 

I actually find Elayne's adventurous spirit one of her relatively few appealing qualities. But let's not pretend she is always making sober-minded judgments about the most rational course of action. She isn't, and would be less interesting if she did.