Elayne's Arc

[Wheel of Thyme]

Elayne showed me once again that she has very little sense and very little wisdom. Whoever wrote that she doesnt EVER learn was quite correct. Her previous attempt at catching the Black Ajah met with unexpected failure from an unlikely source; this would suggest to someone prudent that the same possibility again exists. But no, Elayne dashes in where even fools wont tread, without any plans should the meeting go awry.

 

And then, what does she DO with the information that she got? I will use someone elses analogy here, makes for a better read. The US President, having recieved word that a massive attack is planned against the USA, decides to...annex Canada. WHAT was Elayne THINKING? She was warned that a major invasion of Caemlyn was afoot so she grabbed the throne of the neighboring nation? That made allot of sense <sarcasm>.

 

As for HOW the Black Ajah was freed...I am not sure whether Sylvase's secratary was a Darkfriend who aided the escape or a poor innocent who did so as he was placed under Compulsion. But surely SYLVASE is described often enough in a sufficiently creepy manner (her eyes, her "eerie" monotone voice) to make me wonder if she was turned to the Shadow as Tarna was.

 

Be that as it may, Elayne character impressed me with her new heights of utter foolishness.

[Darth Krewl]

WHAT was Elayne THINKING? She was warned that a major invasion of Caemlyn was afoot so she grabbed the throne of the neighboring nation? That made allot of sense <sarcasm>.

 

Exactly.

 

No ruler in their right minds would decide to expand their territory at the brink of a potential attack/invasion. What you do is fortify your position and wait till after the dust settles, before making a move at expanding your rule. Especially, since Cairhien was secure under Rand's rule and not in need for stabilizing or anything like that.

 

Still, not to defend Elayne (never that lol!) but, she is as young and she is stupid. This has been proven again and again. So, where were her advisers?

 

Where was her mother, who was already at Caemlyn by the time Elayne decided to move for the Sun Throne, telling her to stay in place the storm had passed?

 

Where was Dyelin, who provided Elayne with such good advise during her other ill-fated idiocy (civil war, instead of taking the throne from the silver platter where Rand had left it for her)?

 

There's always the risk that Elayne wouldn't have listened to reason, anyways. Wouldn't surprise me in the very least. But her advisers were worse than her. And the result is that Caemlyn will most likely be lost to the Shadow by the beggining of AMoL.

[babuada]

WHAT was Elayne THINKING? She was warned that a major invasion of Caemlyn was afoot so she grabbed the throne of the neighboring nation? That made allot of sense <sarcasm>.

 

Exactly.

 

No ruler in their right minds would decide to expand their territory at the brink of a potential attack/invasion. What you do is fortify your position and wait till after the dust settles, before making a move at expanding your rule. Especially, since Cairhien was secure under Rand's rule and not in need for stabilizing or anything like that.

 

Still, not to defend Elayne (never that lol!) but, she is as young and she is stupid. This has been proven again and again. So, where were her advisers?

 

Where was her mother, who was already at Caemlyn by the time Elayne decided to move for the Sun Throne, telling her to stay in place the storm had passed?

 

Where was Dyelin, who provided Elayne with such good advise during her other ill-fated idiocy (civil war, instead of taking the throne from the silver platter where Rand had left it for her)?

 

There's always the risk that Elayne wouldn't have listened to reason, anyways. Wouldn't surprise me in the very least. But her advisers were worse than her. And the result is that Caemlyn will most likely be lost to the Shadow by the beggining of AMoL.

I doubt she shared the information of threat with her advisers. She was too busy hiding the fact from Mat that she almost lost the fox medallion. She got in power when she is still a child. Morgese should be replacing her until she grows up.

[Darth Krewl]

I doubt she shared the information of threat with her advisers. She was too busy hiding the fact from Mat that she almost lost the fox medallion. She got in power when she is still a child. Morgese should be replacing her until she grows up.

 

Well, in that case, she's even more foolish than I thought. Why have advisers with her, when she's not gonna share vital information, such as a potential, big scale attack on Caemlyn? Especially for such a young, inexperienced person.

 

EDIT: Oh and btw, her mother cannot reign again. That's not how a medieval kind of court would act. That's precisely the reason why young rulers in both, fantasy and real life, have to surround themselves with plenty of experienced advisers, whom they can trust with everything. So Morgase could rule from behind the throne, but not officially, after abdicating.

[folkstyle]

I could make another list of pros and cons for Elayne, but it seems like everyone else has already done a good job of that. I liked her earlier in the series and then got more and more aggravated with her as she became more sexist and more cocky, but the thing that actually makes me dislike her is her actions as queen. She's clever(not as clever as she thinks though), and that's good to a degree, but Andor isn't supposed to be about politics and plots. It's supposed to be about honor and loyalty, but she isn't being honorable or loyal to her people at all. I good write pages and pages about this because it just drives me crazy, but I have one main questions(sorry if this was already explained):

 

1. She makes the agreement with Perrin that he will be the Steward of the Two Rivers, but that it will be Rand's territory. This is explained away as the only reasonable way that she can give the territory to Perrin. Then they discussed the issue of having children who have claims to both the Two Rivers and Saldeae and they solve this problem pretty well IMO. My question is: Does anyone else think that Elayne may have made the deal in a way that Rand actually owns the territory so that her children will have claim to it over Perrin's? If this is the case, which i believe it is, then I will be even more infuriated by Elayne because this is the exact thing that I don't think Andor is about and is another example of how she isn't honorable or loyal to her people.

[David Selig]

Taking over the Sun Throne peacefully actually makes perfect sense given the information for the invasion. Now that she's the monarch of Cairhien, Elayne can call upon the armies of the Cairhieniin nobles to help protect Andor.

 

I doubt she shared the information of threat with her advisers. She was too busy hiding the fact from Mat that she almost lost the fox medallion. She got in power when she is still a child. Morgese should be replacing her until she grows up.

You will be wrong then, it was clearly stated she told Biritte, Dyelin and Norry.

[Mr Ares]

You can make an intellectually honest and consistent argument that Elayne owes nothing to the Two Rivers, and that she has no claim to the Two Rivers.

 

You can make an intellectually honest and consistent argument that Elayne owes somthing to the Two Rivers, and that she has a claim to the Two Rivers.

 

You cannot make an intellectually honest and consistent argument that Elayne owes nothing to the Two Rivers, and that she has a claim to the Two Rivers.

 

It isn't complicated. There are mutual obligations. Since the Andoran throne has not provide protection and other services to the Two Rivers, it has abrogated its claim to the loyalty of the Two Rivers.

No, since the TR people failed to pay taxes to the Andoran throne, they forfeited their right to protection from the Andoran throne. Given the Andoran throne was not under any obligation to protect them, it did not fail in its obligations. That does not change her legal claim to the TR.

 

Andor has no moral claim to sovereignty of the Two Rivers,

What has morality got to do with it?

nor the capacity to hold it without Perrin.

She could hold it without Perrin. Or do you expect a leaderless rabble to win a war against a powerful nation?

 

Also, chew on this: Elayne is aware that Perrin is necessary for Rand to succeed. And therefore, for the universe to avoid destruction. And yet she threatens to execute him? And people defend this?

That he is necessary for the universe's continued survival does not give him carte blanche to violate laws as he sees fit without having to face the consequences. He was a rebel, she had every right to punish him. If they couldn't come to an amicable solution, simply schedule his execution for after TG. Anyway, bored now.

 

 

Elayne showed me once again that she has very little sense and very little wisdom. Whoever wrote that she doesnt EVER learn was quite correct. Her previous attempt at catching the Black Ajah met with unexpected failure from an unlikely source; this would suggest to someone prudent that the same possibility again exists. But no, Elayne dashes in where even fools wont tread, without any plans should the meeting go awry.

I won't bother asking you to back this up. So far, no-one has been able to provide a decent explanation for this point, and I don't expect them to start now.

 

And then, what does she DO with the information that she got? I will use someone elses analogy here, makes for a better read. The US President, having recieved word that a massive attack is planned against the USA, decides to...annex Canada. WHAT was Elayne THINKING? She was warned that a major invasion of Caemlyn was afoot so she grabbed the throne of the neighboring nation? That made allot of sense <sarcasm>.

She was not warned an invasion of Caemlyn was afoot, she was warned an invasion of Andor was afoot, there is a difference. And your analogy is flawed. If the US President was threatened with his country being invaded and at the same time was offered the chance to become PM of Canada, just waltz in and make a speech announcing he was taking over, not diverting any American forces north of the border, then in what way doesn't it make sense to take the job? How does taking over Canada alter the decisions made to protect the US from this assault? Elayne increased border defences - completely reasonable when faced with invasion. One can hardly fault her for that. She didn't divert forces to Cairhien - the situation we are presented with is two separate countries with the same ruler. So, how is it a failure of good sense?

 

I could make another list of pros and cons for Elayne, but it seems like everyone else has already done a good job of that. I liked her earlier in the series and then got more and more aggravated with her as she became more sexist and more cocky, but the thing that actually makes me dislike her is her actions as queen. She's clever(not as clever as she thinks though), and that's good to a degree, but Andor isn't supposed to be about politics and plots. It's supposed to be about honor and loyalty, but she isn't being honorable or loyal to her people at all. I good write pages and pages about this because it just drives me crazy, but I have one main questions(sorry if this was already explained):

 

1. She makes the agreement with Perrin that he will be the Steward of the Two Rivers, but that it will be Rand's territory. This is explained away as the only reasonable way that she can give the territory to Perrin. Then they discussed the issue of having children who have claims to both the Two Rivers and Saldeae and they solve this problem pretty well IMO. My question is: Does anyone else think that Elayne may have made the deal in a way that Rand actually owns the territory so that her children will have claim to it over Perrin's?

You are correct: Perrin's children will have no claim to the TR, they will only be its stewards. Rand's children (specifically, his children with Elayne) will be the next rulers of the TR.

If this is the case, which i believe it is, then I will be even more infuriated by Elayne because this is the exact thing that I don't think Andor is about and is another example of how she isn't honorable or loyal to her people.

I'm not sure I follow you. How is she disloyal to the Andoran people? Where is she without honour?

[f3llyn]

You are correct: Perrin's children will have no claim to the TR, they will only be its stewards. Rand's children (specifically, his children with Elayne) will be the next rulers of the TR.

Are you sure about that? Elayne's children, especially if one or both are girls would become the Daughter Heir of Andor like they've always had. I'm of the opinion that one will be a boy and one will be a girl. So they'll be Daughter Heir and First Prince of the Sword as has been tradition in Andor/Caemlyn for a long time..

 

Perrin and his chilren would be the major land owners in the Two Rivers so they would take his place, imo.

[anotherfingolfin]

You can make an intellectually honest and consistent argument that Elayne owes nothing to the Two Rivers, and that she has no claim to the Two Rivers.

 

You can make an intellectually honest and consistent argument that Elayne owes somthing to the Two Rivers, and that she has a claim to the Two Rivers.

 

You cannot make an intellectually honest and consistent argument that Elayne owes nothing to the Two Rivers, and that she has a claim to the Two Rivers.

 

It isn't complicated. There are mutual obligations. Since the Andoran throne has not provide protection and other services to the Two Rivers, it has abrogated its claim to the loyalty of the Two Rivers.

No, since the TR people failed to pay taxes to the Andoran throne, they forfeited their right to protection from the Andoran throne. Given the Andoran throne was not under any obligation to protect them, it did not fail in its obligations. That does not change her legal claim to the TR.

 

in situations where there is no governance or control by a central authority over a region for a length of time, it remains a part of that nation/empire only on paper. much like Murandy. in the case of the TR, it is all but forgotten by the powers that be in Andor. in effect, losing it does not even hurt Andor a whit, only hurting the prestige and percieved power of its monarch.

did the TR actively refuse to pay taxes? did they revolt? i don't recall, correct me if i am wrong. it is the perogative of the governance to govern. it falls on the rulers of Andor to send tax collectors/administrators to TR. if i remember right, in the first few books, it is mentioned that the TR didn't feel like a part of Andor, they had not seen any representative of Caemlyn in generations.

while your other points are worthy of discussion, this one point seems disingenuous only to further your point. either that or you have misread something.

[David Selig]

I'm of the opinion that one will be a boy and one will be a girl.

It's not just an opinion, we know from Min's viewing they will be a boy and a girl.

 

I am not sure about the Rand's children claim for Two Rivers though. The way the suggested agreement was worded, it seems was about the Dragon Reborn as a sort of really special case, not Rand al'Thor and his heirs. ""You put them into a trust to be administered by Perrin and his line, with the understanding that if the Dragon ever returns, he can call upon them". So there's Perrin's line mentioned, but nothing about Rand's heirs or anything like that.

 

Note that Faile, who knows all about Randland politics and always wants to see Perrin get his due as a Lord, didn't object to that part, even though she suspected Elayne's pregnant with Rand's children. I doubt she would've been tricked that easily. If it was just Perrin who's clueless about this stuff, yes, but not her.

[waffle]

 

It isn't complicated. There are mutual obligations. Since the Andoran throne has not provide protection and other services to the Two Rivers, it has abrogated its claim to the loyalty of the Two Rivers.

 

No, since the TR people failed to pay taxes to the Andoran throne, they forfeited their right to protection from the Andoran throne. Given the Andoran throne was not under any obligation to protect them, it did not fail in its obligations. That does not change her legal claim to the TR.

 

So the correct behaviour is "If you don´t pay me, i will leave you for the Trollocs" and just bitch and moan about how people are taking away toys i never play with anyway? In contrast to Perrin saving whitecloaks who are looking to kill him.

 

Don´t the Seanchan have a valid claim to the whole of Randland too then? I saw you say somewhere that there is a difference between 200 and a 1000 years. To be honest, i see those as the kind of numbers where in matters such as these, there is no difference.

[folkstyle]

I could make another list of pros and cons for Elayne, but it seems like everyone else has already done a good job of that. I liked her earlier in the series and then got more and more aggravated with her as she became more sexist and more cocky, but the thing that actually makes me dislike her is her actions as queen. She's clever(not as clever as she thinks though), and that's good to a degree, but Andor isn't supposed to be about politics and plots. It's supposed to be about honor and loyalty, but she isn't being honorable or loyal to her people at all. I good write pages and pages about this because it just drives me crazy, but I have one main questions(sorry if this was already explained):

 

1. She makes the agreement with Perrin that he will be the Steward of the Two Rivers, but that it will be Rand's territory. This is explained away as the only reasonable way that she can give the territory to Perrin. Then they discussed the issue of having children who have claims to both the Two Rivers and Saldeae and they solve this problem pretty well IMO. My question is: Does anyone else think that Elayne may have made the deal in a way that Rand actually owns the territory so that her children will have claim to it over Perrin's?

You are correct: Perrin's children will have no claim to the TR, they will only be its stewards. Rand's children (specifically, his children with Elayne) will be the next rulers of the TR.

If this is the case, which i believe it is, then I will be even more infuriated by Elayne because this is the exact thing that I don't think Andor is about and is another example of how she isn't honorable or loyal to her people.

I'm not sure I follow you. How is she disloyal to the Andoran people? Where is she without honour?

 

The reason that I say this is not honorable is because she's using words and semantics to trick Perrin. Perrin has earned the right to lead his people and although I thought it would be fair if he raised Manetheren, at the same time i've always been a fan of Andor so I'm ok with the agreement they made. The reason I say that she's tricking him is because she is essentially going to take away what he earned(what she seems to think she's giving him). She could not and would not do this to any of the major houses, but she's doing it to him and I just don't think it's right. Andor is supposed to be true and honorable and the honorable thing for Elayne to do would be to say that you've done a great job in the TR Perrin and I'd like for you to lead that part of the country. Instead she's trying to pull some back-handed cairhien stuff and that's not what andor is supposed to be about. In Cairhien you plot and scheme and trick people to earn your power, in Andor you work hard, do your job, and earn your position the honorable way. Anyways, that's just how I used to feel about Andor, Elayne is kinda taking that away now.

 

PS - this is in no way saying that the queen and other lords don't have to be smart and clever, I just always saw Andoran people as people who would use that cleverness against foreign countries and in the best interest of Andor, not against each other(friends) and in personal interest.

[Zentari]

Actually she can't take away anything if Rand says so.If there was a single heir to the DR then MAYBE but he's gonna leave three different bloodlines so the chances of her children or herself ruling there are slim to say the least.Plus, Rand could always step down,which means that neither she or her children will come to rule anywhere near TR.

[smileyman]

It isn't complicated. There are mutual obligations. Since the Andoran throne has not provide protection and other services to the Two Rivers, it has abrogated its claim to the loyalty of the Two Rivers.

 

No, since the TR people failed to pay taxes to the Andoran throne, they forfeited their right to protection from the Andoran throne. Given the Andoran throne was not under any obligation to protect them, it did not fail in its obligations. That does not change her legal claim to the TR.

 

So the correct behaviour is "If you don´t pay me, i will leave you for the Trollocs" and just bitch and moan about how people are taking away toys i never play with anyway? In contrast to Perrin saving whitecloaks who are looking to kill him.

 

 

 

It's actually a valid point. If you don't recognize someone as your King or Queen (which includes things like paying taxes), you have no moral right to expect any protection from them. You can't say "I hate you, go away", and then when trouble comes beg for them to come riding in on a white stallion.

 

 

[David Selig]

Again - it's not really clear from the book, but it's implied that only the Dragon will be a high lord of Two Rivers, not his heirs. Faile didn't object, and she suspected Rand is the father of Elayne's children.

 

One of Elayne's children is going to be the Queen of Andor anyway and thus legally will have the rights over Two Rivers as part of Andor under this agreement, even if only on paper.

 

Elayne and Rand aren't even married yet and don't seem in a hurry to do so, so it will be a bit hard for their children to establish any legal claim for inheritance of Rand's titles and lands.

 

As for the taxes and protection thing, I can't find the quote, but in one of the early books it was mentioned that Two Rivers have enjoyed total peace for a long time. Mostly due to being so isolated geographically, probably, but still being part of Andor, if only a paper, must've played some part too. If we look at the map, the only way for an army to reach it is through Andor controlled lands, so they were protected indirectly for a long time.

 

IIRC, Verin also mentioned during the defense of the Two Rivers, that if they could get word to the Caemlyn, Morgase would definitely sent help against the Trollocs and Whitecloacks.

[Zentari]

It isn't complicated. There are mutual obligations. Since the Andoran throne has not provide protection and other services to the Two Rivers, it has abrogated its claim to the loyalty of the Two Rivers.

 

No, since the TR people failed to pay taxes to the Andoran throne, they forfeited their right to protection from the Andoran throne. Given the Andoran throne was not under any obligation to protect them, it did not fail in its obligations. That does not change her legal claim to the TR.

 

So the correct behaviour is "If you don´t pay me, i will leave you for the Trollocs" and just bitch and moan about how people are taking away toys i never play with anyway? In contrast to Perrin saving whitecloaks who are looking to kill him.

 

 

 

It's actually a valid point. If you don't recognize someone as your King or Queen (which includes things like paying taxes), you have no moral right to expect any protection from them. You can't say "I hate you, go away", and then when trouble comes beg for them to come riding in on a white stallion.

No it's not.If TR declined to pay taxes it WOULD have been but that's not even remotely implied.Andor failed to collect taxes , which is another point against it, not for it.

[Wheel of Thyme]

Hello all...

Ive not gotten the hang of the multi quote thing, so bear with me.

 

Mr Ares, you asked where Elayne had showed remarkably little sense, saying none had demonstrated to you this aspect of Elayne's persona. How about her "Hey...I wanna go after the Black Ajah TO! Dont leave ME out" scene that she did in The Great Hunt. She was the DAUGHTER HEIR. Her place was to be in the Tower, NOT risking her own life gallivanting around Randland, placing her nation at risk of a Succession War had she dropped dead. The fact that she likely would have died had she remained in the Tower is irrelevant to the FACT that she abandoned her NATION to go Black Ajah hunting. In that, I could also believe the poster who said she was disloyal to her nation.

 

Another area of Elayne's stupidity. She had placed ALL of her new cannons, er dragon, in THE SAME PLACE. Its astoundingly stupid to place ALL of a new devastating weapon in the same building. Suppose that building is destroyed? There go ALL the weapons. Sense would have had her place them in TWO or THREE secret locations. Its the old adage of "dont put all your (dragon's) eggs in one basket" <smiles>

 

 

Mr Ares, Elayne's annexation of Carhein was awfully dumb as well. Consider the situation YOU raise. Had a US President been able to annex Canada with a speech and a song, he would have been immediately bogged down in the minutae of governance that the feat would require. How would Canada's government mesh with US style government? Given THAT, hed be in NO place to deal with the impending invasion of the USA, and likewise, Elayne is in a much weakened place to deal with an invasion of Andor. Andor's politics are not Carhien's. Assuming the mantle of Carhien's maneuvering and the administration of her new nation is an awful act of stupidity given that she had foreknowledge of an impending invasion of her nation. And yes, she DID take soldiers with her when she assumed her new throne. So, she did, to a degree weaken her armed forces in Andor.

 

And sense would have told Elayne that the invasion would be, not in some rural area or town like Baerlon, but in the major capital, as she did have some knowledge of how the Dark One operates. The TREND of the Shadow has been clear; usurp leaders places/ perogatives, placing their nation in chaos. Unless they had a specific task in mind, and their acts targeted to reach that goal. As examples of the Shadows methodology, the invasion of the Two Rivers at the start of the series was targeted to kill Rand, Mat and Perrin, and the later invasion as well was specifically targeted to draw Rand's eye. Darkfriends 20 years prior to Eye of the World were killing ANY lad who showed he MAY channel, not just random men. The Dark One wished to set Taim up as Mock Dragon and set him on a path of destruction so he would terrorize the people and make them hate the REAL Dragon. Rahvin acted to sow chaos and discord in Andor, and the focus of it was in CAEMLYN. Graendal's acts sowed chaos in Arad Doman.

 

A valid point can be made that Elayne wasnt aware of the killings that took place during New Spring, Graendal's behavior, and the rationales behind both invasions of the Two Rivers. I just write that to support my point that the Dark One does act in a quasi consistent manner. However, Elayne was very privy to OTHER Darkfriend plots...Rahvin's acts with Caemlyn/ Andor/ her mom, the plot regarding Tanchico (obtaining the male ad'am), the one regarding setting Taim up as a false dragon, and all the old plots that Ispan spoke of while being "questioned" by Vandene and Adeleas. So, Elayne had some inclination of how the Shadow may choose to operate; and her experience should have told her the Shadow tries to usurp/overthrow leaders and create chaos in the nations they lead. What easier way to do that than invade Andor's capital city, Caemlyn. So yes, Elayne failed there, miserably.

[nolirion]

It isn't complicated. There are mutual obligations. Since the Andoran throne has not provide protection and other services to the Two Rivers, it has abrogated its claim to the loyalty of the Two Rivers.

 

No, since the TR people failed to pay taxes to the Andoran throne, they forfeited their right to protection from the Andoran throne. Given the Andoran throne was not under any obligation to protect them, it did not fail in its obligations. That does not change her legal claim to the TR.

 

So the correct behaviour is "If you don´t pay me, i will leave you for the Trollocs" and just bitch and moan about how people are taking away toys i never play with anyway? In contrast to Perrin saving whitecloaks who are looking to kill him.

 

 

 

It's actually a valid point. If you don't recognize someone as your King or Queen (which includes things like paying taxes), you have no moral right to expect any protection from them. You can't say "I hate you, go away", and then when trouble comes beg for them to come riding in on a white stallion.

No it's not.If TR declined to pay taxes it WOULD have been but that's not even remotely implied.Andor failed to collect taxes , which is another point against it, not for it.

I think you are missing the point , it at been stated that Andor King and queen showed little interest in the two river over the past century , there is no Military outpost near by .

The whole point is that Andor did not show their authority or their presence for so long the TR Didn't event knew they where part of Andor .

The andorian King or queen when they claim this land had an obligation toward it , by failing it all the way they loosed that claim .

The TR people did not failed to pay the tax , Tax collector never CAME (as far as we know) it is That simple.

I don't blame the Andorian but let's just say that I don't think they have the right to all of a sudden claim a land they did not protect when need .

You pay tax only to insure the proper maintenance of road , military , and the court I did not see any Andorian magistrate , Queen's guard when I read The eye of the world .

[waffle]

 

It's actually a valid point. If you don't recognize someone as your King or Queen (which includes things like paying taxes), you have no moral right to expect any protection from them. You can't say "I hate you, go away", and then when trouble comes beg for them to come riding in on a white stallion.

 

Correct me if i´m wrong, but they didn´t beg anyone for anything.

[Zentari]

 

I think you are missing the point , it at been stated that Andor King and queen showed little interest in the two river over the past century , there is no Military outpost near by .

The whole point is that Andor did not show their authority or their presence for so long the TR Didn't event knew they where part of Andor .

The andorian King or queen when they claim this land had an obligation toward it , by failing it all the way they loosed that claim .

The TR people did not failed to pay the tax , Tax collector never CAME (as far as we know) it is That simple.

I don't blame the Andorian but let's just say that I don't think they have the right to all of a sudden claim a land they did not protect when need .

You pay tax only to insure the proper maintenance of road , military , and the court I did not see any Andorian magistrate , Queen's guard when I read The eye of the world .

I said "Andor failed to collect the taxes" ,not "TR failed to pay the taxes" which means that you are preaching to the choir (or quoted me accidentally).

[randsc]

We have no evidence that Andor tried to collect taxes, until the last couple of months.

 

Andor retracted, and withdrew from many lands it might have held. Elayne is actually proud of this, that after Hawkwing's death Andor didn't overextend itself.

 

Andor didn't provide any services, including even tax collection.

 

As for Andor's ability to hold the Two Rivers without Perrin: If it could, why hasn't it?

 

The world of WOT is a world with civilization in retreat. There are massive tracts of land open and unclaimed by anyone. Why? Because the nations of this age cannot hold that land.

 

That he is necessary for the universe's continued survival does not give him carte blanche to violate laws as he sees fit without having to face the consequences.

 

Actually, it sure as hell does.

[babuada]

We have no evidence that Andor tried to collect taxes, until the last couple of months.

 

Andor retracted, and withdrew from many lands it might have held. Elayne is actually proud of this, that after Hawkwing's death Andor didn't overextend itself.

 

Andor didn't provide any services, including even tax collection.

 

As for Andor's ability to hold the Two Rivers without Perrin: If it could, why hasn't it?

 

The world of WOT is a world with civilization in retreat. There are massive tracts of land open and unclaimed by anyone. Why? Because the nations of this age cannot hold that land.

 

That he is necessary for the universe's continued survival does not give him carte blanche to violate laws as he sees fit without having to face the consequences.

 

Actually, it sure as hell does.

Unless Elayne is on the side of Dark she should not try to harm or even threaten Perin. But she is trying to use Perin and succeeded in using Mat for her personal goal (Andor's power). She does not think Mat, Perin or even Rand is more important than her. She is snooty to the toe. But again what do you expect from any Royalty. But she is still better than others. And you should remember that she is Morgese's daughter. It is her upbringing that is showing up. Morgese was no better than her. I still hope she will learn humility and honor yet. May be Rand can teach her.

[Darth Krewl]

And you should remember that she is Morgese's daughter. It is her upbringing that is showing up. Morgese was no better than her. I still hope she will learn humility and honor yet. May be Rand can teach her.

 

Spot on. All one has to do is look at Gawyn and Galad (while not Morgase's biological son, she did raise him as her own as well) to see that every single one of these characters, including Elayne of course, have serious issues of their own. It's gotta be their upbringing.

 

Still, that doesn't justify that all three are such idiots. At least Galad does uphold honor above all things and is man enough to admit his faults and recognize his mistakes.

[Guest tristinmurphy]

Oh boy, there's a lot to be said for Elayne in the book. But one thing that really struck me was some inconsistencies in reference to Egwene. Egwene called Nynaeve to account in the world of dreams about showing her respect as Amyrlin; it needed to be done. Elayne saw the immediate aftermath of that upbraiding. Yet there was no similar conversation that we saw between Egwene and Elayne. Later on (I assume anyway with the passage of time vs. plots being so screwy in this book and I'm still trying to figure it out,) we see Elayne meeting with Alyse and Sumeko about the Kin's future, and many times Elayne refers to Egwene simply as "Egwene." It just strikes me as odd that there is that familiarity when some important business is being discussed.

 

I suppose it may just be oversight on the part of the author(s), but more than anything else, it bugged the hell out of me.

 

I do have a question though. Any idea what kind of military capabilities are defending Caemlyn while everyone is playing camp? And was Verin being overly dramatic in her note to Mat to spur him to more action, or does she know for certain that Caemlyn will be completely destroyed and how? Maybe that last is a better question for another thread, but it does tie in to Elayne.

 

First post on here. Been hiding in the shadows of anonymity for years though and for some reason, I needed to complain about Elayne tonight.

[anotherfingolfin]

Oh boy, there's a lot to be said for Elayne in the book. But one thing that really struck me was some inconsistencies in reference to Egwene. Egwene called Nynaeve to account in the world of dreams about showing her respect as Amyrlin; it needed to be done. Elayne saw the immediate aftermath of that upbraiding. Yet there was no similar conversation that we saw between Egwene and Elayne. Later on (I assume anyway with the passage of time vs. plots being so screwy in this book and I'm still trying to figure it out,) we see Elayne meeting with Alyse and Sumeko about the Kin's future, and many times Elayne refers to Egwene simply as "Egwene."

i would assume that this is due to oversight during the writing process, or at any rate, it isn't important enough for us to think about. but if we were to read into it, i would say it is because Egwene grew up with Nyn as someone superior to her/an authority figure in her life. Hence, she overcompensates to assert herself, as in a power struggle. Elayne was not Egwene's superior (yes, she was a princess, but that is immaterial here), and never exercised any authority over Egwene, so on a subconscious level, does not pose as much of a threat to her power.