Discuss the Epiclogue

[Bob T Dwarf]

This was the part of the epilogue that hit me in the face. This is big. And I don't mean Olver. Caemlyn is the center of Andor and is now controlled by the Shadow. Throw in the Black Tower and Andor is basically half a shadow base. But there is more. It compromises Elayne's ability to rule both Andor and Cairhien as she can't even effectively rule one country. Cairhienen machinations may challenge her authority. The only part of Andor clearly with the Light is the Two Rivers, which isn't firmly with Elayne after her agreements with Perrin. Lastly, she may be accused of being friends with Shadow. Where did those Trollocs come from? Did they just appear within your city? But there is even more. Mat could have prevented this by opening up a simple letter. Letter open, enter Caemlyn, destroy Waygate, done. He doesn't because he is stubbournly set against White Tower strings. His choice to run from them rather than engage them basically doomed Caemlyn. That might make him a wee bit depressed.

 

Also, the Shadow has dragons now. Good luck holding any stronghold against them.

 

 

First, Caemlyn isn't lost yet, it's just under attack from inside the gates. The dragons aren't lost yet, just likely to be if somebody doesn't DO SOMETHING quickly.

 

My hope is that Mat finds the opened letter and the attack in Caemlyn, and yes the death of Olver, finally get Mat to growthehellup. Humor is no substitute for intelligence, charm no substitute for maturity.

 

"WAHHHH! Verin's gonna try to pull my strings. WAHHHHH!!"

 

Talk about somebody whose childishness and cavalier attitude toward what is important gets people killed, Mat takes the cake.

[Alternate34]

 

First, Caemlyn isn't lost yet, it's just under attack from inside the gates. The dragons aren't lost yet, just likely to be if somebody doesn't DO SOMETHING quickly.

 

 

Totally understood, but an internal attack that no one was prepared for, what can they do? Those inside the city are done. Most have no experience with Shadowspawn and have lost an advantage already in that they can't do some Shadowspawn funneling and killing. Elayne took forces to meet with Egwene. Talmanes starts his approach of the city after it is already burning. This means that the Shadowspawn had already begun their attack. The forces of Light are forced into attacking a city already held.

 

The first most probable method to take it back would be for Rand to go crazy on Caemlyn, wheel out some awesome Darkspawn killing weaves and wreck the place. The second method would be some attack involving Traveling.

 

The first method distracts Rand from his duties. In fact, he may not be able to do this at all since he wants to break the seals, and that will be a handful.

 

The second is more risky because it involves less superpower and more manpower. It isn't a situation like Maradon where a Great General has control over the city and willingly gives it up to harass the Darkspawn or like the manor house, where Darkspawn ran across an open field. The city is already filled with Darkspawn which probably number in the hundreds of thousands.

 

Additionally, there is the wild card of the dreamspike. The Black Tower if it moves in coordination could potentially roll into Caemlyn fortifying it with both tons of powerful male channelers and preventing a Travelling attack. I admit, this is speculation with less support. The Black Tower will probably keep the dreamspike with them considering they made an awesome fortification. But I think Caemlyn falling briefly to the Shadow is extremely likely and with that brief fall, the Shadow should be able to obtain the dragons.

[rygar]

regarding asmo, help me understand how we could have known who killed him? Didn't RJ say we could have figured it out? What did he originally write that clues us in?

[Bob T Dwarf]

From the description, the Shadowspawn have a beachhead. Trollocs are not disciplined enough to wait until the entire attack force has "landed" before they'd begin rampaging. There is only one Waygate, and Trollocs can probably only exit three or four abreast ( they're supposed to be HUGE ). It's going to take days for hundreds of thousands to make their way through.

 

The Light has time, and with Traveling, the ability to swarm them before they can land in great enough force to be a real problem. The Palace may be gone, sacked and burned, but not the whole city. ( I think the Ogier Grove and Waygate is on the Palace grounds )

 

The most worrying is that stash of *angreal that Elayne has. If the Dark gets their hands on that it would be worse for the Light than losing the cannon.

[Sharaman]

Asmo -process of elimination.

Who had the ability to kill him? Who did not have an alibi? Etc.

The Waygate is in New Caemlyn - in a stable IIRC. If the dragons are near the Palace, they're temporarily safe.

You'd get a trolloc sandwich in between Palace defenders and Talamanes & Co.

[Cyf]

My hope is that Mat finds the opened letter and the attack in Caemlyn, and yes the death of Olver, finally get Mat to growthehellup. Humor is no substitute for intelligence, charm no substitute for maturity. "WAHHHH! Verin's gonna try to pull my strings. WAHHHHH!!"

 

Disagree utterly. Verin in no way implied that the letter was important. Mat is not us. He doesn't know it's a story. So he didn't open it. I would think all he's done accepting his men and what happened in the ToG would show he's taken responsibility. I don't think 'growing up' means you have to change everything about yourself. Mat is still Mat. He's just responsible.

 

The letter is really Verin's fault, for assuming Mat was still the fickle child he was when she knew him, and for trying to manipulate him as she did.

[Maji]

Rand had the hots for her as well. The key here is that LTT fell out of love because she was powerful and craved more power and was prepared to go darkside for it. But both LTT-rand have the damsel in distress syndrome and now that she's in trouble, feelings might re-kindle.

Yes, Lanfear got three bargains--- we don't know what they are.

 

Right, Lanfear was a little too power hungry for LTT's taste which eventually led him to ditch Lanfear for Ilyena. Cannot blame the guy, I'm sure he was looking for someone a little more.. stable.. Not some power-hungry egomaniac

[David Selig]

The Caemlyn Waygate is in the New City. So the Trollcs have bypassed the outer walls of Caemlyn, but they are outside the Inner City which has an impressive wall too and defensive towers too. So Caemlyn is not lost yet.

 

Most of the Dragons are in a secret warehouse. It's not clear whether it's in the New or in the Inner city though.

 

Also not clear is whether Elayne took all Kinwomen with her to the big army gathering. If there's enough of them left to open a Gateway, it would be easy to save the city, but for dramatic purposes it's much more likely they have all left. Elayne probably needed all of them to move her big army quickly to the meeting place and back. But it would also make sense to send a few back to inform her in case of emergency, especially given the invasion info she got from the Black Ajah prisoner.

[jwillis7]

is it a problem for anyone else that rand did not have that waygate closed. He sent Loial and the eldar haman to close them why would he not do the ones inside the cities first then the other ones it just does not make sense to me

[Rand Skywalker]

1. Graendal's in trouble.

 

I'm not convinced she's getting a mind trap, but her days of access to the TP are over. Of course I wondered who the "other" SH mentioned was, but thought about Cyndane or Mog.

 

2. Perrin realises Noam chose to become a wolf.

 

Loved this. Terrific execution and beautiful writing and a great tie up to this arc.

 

3. Olver's seems to be a budding sociopath, and Caemlyn is invaded by Shadowspawn. Talmanes fears the loss of the Dragons.

 

I wasn't much of an Olver fan after this, and really don't understand Verin's logic about the note (I'm sure she has it all worked out though, and that someone will work out why she did this--it just makes no sense to me why she had to tell Mat this way).

 

4. Creepy Red Aiel Dudes.

 

Freaky scene. My immediate thought on who these three were was Sharans (ala Demandred), but now I'm leaning towards either DF Aiel or 13X13 ed male Aiel channelers (it's the veils).

 

5. Rand dreams of Cyndane.

 

Really? What a curveball, especially DESIRE. That one really made me blink twice. Come on there Rand, you've already got 3 gals. . .

 

6. Lan reaches the Gap.

 

A great scene, everything I expected. However, I actually thought he'd have a few more fella's with him.

[PatsNats28]

I had just gotten over Lanfear, and he throws that back in? Come on... I was a Lanfear supporter before, but I was finally getting over it and thinking of the positives of Elayne/Min/Avi (there aren't a ton, Lanfear is so much cooler). It also helped that Cyndane kinda annoyed me... but now? I'm 90% sure it's a trap, but still. Dammit Rand.

[Rand Skywalker]

is it a problem for anyone else that rand did not have that waygate closed. He sent Loial and the eldar haman to close them why would he not do the ones inside the cities first then the other ones it just does not make sense to me

 

100% agree. I had no idea how that was possible. It seems like they would have been MOST careful with the waygates in their most valuable cities.

[Bob T Dwarf]

is it a problem for anyone else that rand did not have that waygate closed. He sent Loial and the eldar haman to close them why would he not do the ones inside the cities first then the other ones it just does not make sense to me

 

100% agree. I had no idea how that was possible. It seems like they would have been MOST careful with the waygates in their most valuable cities.

 

He first tried Warding them himself and fairly quickly realized it was a waste of his time. Then he sent Loial and Karldin to finish up. Since the BIG TROLLOC ATTACK at the Manor, Karldin has been bonded, Loial has gone to address the Great Stump, and Elder Haman has picked up the torch of getting the Waygates handled.

 

None of which explains why Rand didn't take care of the Waygate in Caemlyn before he cleared out. Apparently more Trollocs in Caemlyn is a vital plot point, so Rand experienced another Moment of Stooooopid ( Reg US Pat Office) so that it could happen.

[Mr. Micawber]

Bob, not to exonerate Rand, who's almost certainly being stupid again in this case, but the implication of Verin's letter is that merely closing the Waygate wouldn't be enough. ie. Destroying both access leaves isn't enough.

 

Rather, you need to do what Loial discussed all the way back in Book 4: the whole nine yards, massive circle plus sa'angreal.

 

You need to actually destroy the thing. And mustering the Power for that could be a bit tricky for Mat.

 

My guess is that they have the equivalent of a borer with them.

 

And I rather think that if destroying both keys isn't enough to stop them, they're also capable of ripping open the Waygate wider.

[David Selig]

Rand should've taken extra care close the Waygates when he realised in KoD that Trollocs can't Travel. Which leaves Waygates as their only option to attack fortified cities (IIRC there aren't Portal Stones inside cities) and except for Portal Stones, only option for moving quickly around Randland. But he didn't think about that all. I know he had a lot on his plate, but this really seems another of those "plot induced stupidity" moments to me.

[AutomatedTeller]

what I don't get is....

 

what happened to machin shin? I mean - the waygate is IN Caemlyn - there's no way that a huge force of trollocs could hide in the city, so they must be hiding in the ways. Why didn't evil-ripping-wind destroy them? Fain isn't there to stop it...

[Byzantine279]

I think that it may have been killed, it is perfectly conceivable that they came up with a way to kill it.

[Zentari]

Bob, not to exonerate Rand, who's almost certainly being stupid again in this case, but the implication of Verin's letter is that merely closing the Waygate wouldn't be enough. ie. Destroying both access leaves isn't enough.

 

Rather, you need to do what Loial discussed all the way back in Book 4: the whole nine yards, massive circle plus sa'angreal.

 

You need to actually destroy the thing. And mustering the Power for that could be a bit tricky for Mat.

 

This.I believe he did consider closing them the best way he could that time (when he COULDN'T destroy them).Then, when he went savior mode and had the power to do them, he was too busy fixing stuff up.

 

One of the biggest ironies in WoT is how they don't have enough time.

[darkgohan]

1. Graendal's in trouble.

2. Perrin realises Noam chose to become a wolf.

3. Olver's seems to be a budding sociopath, and Caemlyn is invaded by Shadowspawn. Talmanes fears the loss of the Dragons.

4. Creepy Red Aiel Dudes.

5. Rand dreams of Cyndane.

6. Lan reaches the Gap.

 

Graendal is going to rebel against her punishments... and again, unwittingly help the light.

Perrin is the Wolf Lord of the prophecy that is in the epilogue... and also the Fallen Blacksmith.After all the books where he agonized over his choices(wolf/man/Faille) he's gonna freakin die?

Olver is gonna be what he is - reincarnation of Birgitte's lover; like he said it's time to fight!Remember that Rand negotiated for a percentage of the Dragons to be theirs... and I bet they are not in the city.Is it just me or do you think that Rand wanted them to go there, the Shadowspawn? So he could have as many of them in one place to die and destroy the waygate.He seems to be draawing all of his allies( Perrin,Mat,Egwene etc.) out of their home turf so that the Shadow can't get them.

They are the Shara males that supposedly die in their twenties and the Aiel male channelers that have gone into the blight... and do you think they may be cannabils?

Cyndane dream is a stone trap - but I think he's not gonna fall for it.They want him to follow where she went I think that is a very bad mistake on Moridin's part.

Lan is king and a badass... but his wife rules! I think he makes it.That is why it is so important for the borderlanders to go back and protect their kingdoms- they will come in contact with Lan and his band.

 

It's all supposition I know but that's half the fun. One last thing you know it is Avi that is going to find the song.She wants to change the purpose of the Aiel before it is too late.

i agree with olver being gaidal cain since Mat would always say what an ugly boy he is and in previous books cain was described as a sort and stout ugly man not to mention Brigitte seems to have a unusual taste for very ugly men which was reinforced in ToM.

[Caius Callus]

Here, what's this about Olver becoming a psychopath? He's just a normal 10-year old (or thereabouts) dreaming of Avenging the Great Injustice that has happened to him. What normal young boy doesn't daydream of getting revenge of the people who've mistreated them??? Don't tell me you were all homeschooled...

I say good for you, young Olver! Show them black-eyed Aiel savages who's Boss!

[Kahlika]

i agree with olver being gaidal cain since Mat would always say what an ugly boy he is and in previous books cain was described as a sort and stout ugly man not to mention Brigitte seems to have a unusual taste for very ugly men which was reinforced in ToM.

 

How can he be Gaidal? He was already born when Gaidal was still in T'A'R.

 

RJ went on record to kill that theory.

 

Q: Is Olver Gaidal Cain?

RJ: No. I didn't really think that this would last as long as it has. The timing is wrong. He has another reason for being there besides being a red herring, though.

 

Q: He's too old.

RJ: Yes. Time in T'A'R and the real world run at different rates, but it never runs backwards. You may spend an hour in T'A'R, and a day has passed when you get back, or you may spend a day, and an hour has passed when you get back, but you'll never go in on Tuesday and come back on Monday.

[striker]

Depends on how you look at it. He keeps saying that he is just a simple blacksmith for the whole series, but now he embraces leadership. Blacksmith is not his profesion anymore since he is a lord. His hammer seems more like a one time taveren deal.

 

 

I loaned the book to a co-worker so I'm going off of memory on this but I think that the prophecy went like this "the last days of the Fallen Blacksmith's pride shall come. Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall" I took it as Perrin finally accepted that he is no longer a mere blacksmith and therefore causing the "last days of the Blacksmith's pride".

 

Now as for the "the broken wolf, the one whom death has known, shall fall" I haven't been able to decide whether it is 1. (my initial thought) Hopper, he was killed in the waking world by the white coats, and then dies again from Slayer 2.) Noal aka Jain Fairstrider, my reasoning for this is being that every-time RJ describes him as a battered, beaten, and with bones that have been broken six ways from sunday and not healed properly, and Ishy tells the 3 boys in TEoTW that he manipulated Jain, which Ishy later gets saved by the DO when Rand kills his original body and gets renamed to Mordin that translates into "Death"

[Rufae]

The whole Psycho-Olver thing hit me out of the blue. I was hoping he wasn't going to kill Talmanes for denying that he won the Snakes and Foxes game. What does that mean to you all? Olver won at a game that was unwinnable? Then Olver kept talking about how Mat "owed" him. This doesn't bode well for Mat.

 

Rand dream of Cyndane/Lanfear was unexpected. Especially the part where he had "desire" for her. Is that some of old LTT coming through? Will Rand rescue Meirin or will she drag him down?

 

The anti-Aiel thing was wild.

 

aMoL is looking to be one messed up rollarcoaster ride of a book.

[Kidicaris]

I think that it may have been killed, it is perfectly conceivable that they came up with a way to kill it.

 

I think it's still there, but the Ways are vast. Also, if the Shadow lost a fist or 10 of Trollocks I don't think they would care, it's clear they are just cannon fodder anyway. Now that our main characters can Travel and since since this book we get introduced to the idea that Portal Stones can be used to transport large amount of shadowspawn I wonder if any of the main characters will ever go into the Ways again, so we may never know.

 

Perhaps in an Ogier pov we might get some answers. The Black Wind was a product of the Taint and madness, who can know what effect the cleansing of Saidin had upon it/ the Ways. All speculation though. I thin BS has his eyes on TG, and many other plot points and may never address Machin Shin.

[waffle]

Am i the only one who is somewhat happy that Caemlyn is burning? I don´t know why. maybe it´s just because i don´t like Elayne. Maybe i find that one of the greatest cities in Randland getting burned to the ground (not that Caemlyn is lost, Talmanes will quite likely put on his hero boots and slaughter some shadowspawn) is necessary to make us realize that the Last battle will not be limited to Rand going to SG and bleeding on the rocks there.

 

So far, the vast majority of Randland has been spared from actual shadowspawn attack. Only Tear, Agelmars town, Algiarins manor, the Two Rivers and a couple of villages between Shienar and Cairhien have been struck outside of the Borderlands(and the battle in this book, but that was in the middle of nowhere). Bubbles of evil and food decay and whatnot are pretty bad, But hordes of Shadowspawn coming to eat you is worse.

 

Or maybe i´m a darkfriend.

 

 

About the Caemlyn Waygate, didn´t Loial say that even after it was closed an Aes Sedai could cut it open?

 

This was the part of the epilogue that hit me in the face. This is big. And I don't mean Olver. Caemlyn is the center of Andor and is now controlled by the Shadow. Throw in the Black Tower and Andor is basically half a shadow base. But there is more. It compromises Elayne's ability to rule both Andor and Cairhien as she can't even effectively rule one country. Cairhienen machinations may challenge her authority. The only part of Andor clearly with the Light is the Two Rivers, which isn't firmly with Elayne after her agreements with Perrin. Lastly, she may be accused of being friends with Shadow. Where did those Trollocs come from? Did they just appear within your city? But there is even more. Mat could have prevented this by opening up a simple letter. Letter open, enter Caemlyn, destroy Waygate, done. He doesn't because he is stubbournly set against White Tower strings. His choice to run from them rather than engage them basically doomed Caemlyn. That might make him a wee bit depressed.

 

Also, the Shadow has dragons now. Good luck holding any stronghold against them.

 

 

First, Caemlyn isn't lost yet, it's just under attack from inside the gates. The dragons aren't lost yet, just likely to be if somebody doesn't DO SOMETHING quickly.

 

My hope is that Mat finds the opened letter and the attack in Caemlyn, and yes the death of Olver, finally get Mat to growthehellup. Humor is no substitute for intelligence, charm no substitute for maturity.

 

"WAHHHH! Verin's gonna try to pull my strings. WAHHHHH!!"

 

Talk about somebody whose childishness and cavalier attitude toward what is important gets people killed, Mat takes the cake.

 

Do you go around letting random people, who you can´t trust fully, tell you what you do? No objections, no arguments, no discussion, just do what a letter tells you to.

 

This was Verins screwup, not Mats.