Discuss the Epiclogue

[Caius Callus]

I liked the obvious buildup to "Hello. My name is Olwer. You killed my father. Prepare to die."

[Jagen Sedai]

5. Rand dreams of Cyndane.

 

I found this very interesting, I don't think she can be redeemed, not fully. I do, however think that if she is reaching out to Rand, she may be angry enough with the DO/desperate to escape enough that she would help Rand.

 

I have no evidence to support this, and its probably just a wild guess, but what if she gives Rand the last hint he needs to seal up the bore for permanents? she was the one who made the bore in the first place, after all. maybe she knows something about it that LTT never learned. It is very likely still a trap, but she made the bore surely she will have some small role in closing it, intentional or otherwise?

 

 

I like this theory. In truth, I'm not sure I understand this dream was, uhm... fake. But who knows. Actually, I WOULD like to think that Lanfear is reaching out to Rand for help... that maybe she doesn't want to be a Forsaken anymore. I mean, she mainly loves Rand/LTT more than anything right?

 

I think it would be awesome if she tried to redeem herself and serve the Light.

 

It wouldn't surprise me if Mieren ended up helping to reseal the bore. Afterall, who would know the bore itself better than the one who created it in the first place?

 

This would be pretty cool :) I do wonder if anyone would trust her to do that, though, even linked with Rand, or whatever needs to happen.

[decrepid dragon]

I liked the obvious buildup to "Hello. My name is Olwer. You killed my father. Prepare to die."

Great movie

Wouldn't it be ironic if it turned out Couladin killed his father? I am not sure this is possible though, I don't know if Olver actually saw his death, the dragons on couladins arms would have stood out enough to be identified. Still, poetic justice that the man Olver respects most already has given him his revenge. Mat would also be the good guy, even though Olver would have had his revenge taken away and be angry for a while, because Mat would have directed Olver onto the path of reconsiliation and such (no sociopathing for you young man).

 

And I think that Moiraine will not be in that circle, but Alivia, as the veiwing that she would help rand die and also the general feeling that he would die has been around for a long time now (whether he comes back to life is a whole other story). I think Moiraine will help in that she saw that one of the wishes she had to ask was about the dark prophecies, they have only just been inroduced in prolouge, and she is just returning to the world from mysterious other dimension with wish granting creatures, so it would make sense if she busted them out line for line to Rand and that somehow gave him the other side of the puzzle needed

[Caius Callus]

Wouldn't it be ironic if it turned out Couladin killed his father?

And wouldn't it be even more ironic if it was a woman (MotS) what did it?

Still, it's almost certainly a plotline that will never be explored further, just left open ended, with Olver taking the swordsmans path to become First Sword of the Empire or whatever the WoT equivalent is or will be

.

[Lord_of_the_Morning]

1.) I'm pretty sure Shaidar Haran is having his way with Graendal right now. I wonder if the intent is to breed or demoralize. I wonder what a Forsaken-Fade Spawn would look like?

OMFG, what about this. FEMALE MYRDRAAL. It wouldn't gestate in time for Tar'mon Gaidon, but thats a new idea for WoT.

 

2.) Perrin has finally reached his peace with the wolf. Why do I get the sneaking feeling that Faile is going to die?? They don't have any babies hatching and they had a little roll in the hay there on the hilltop. It reeks of finality.

 

3.) Why is everyone hating on Olver? His parents were murdered by Shaido and he was raised by mercenaries during the Last Days before some Unspeakable Evil Force threatens to take over the world. He gets to hear nothing but stories of battle and epic glory from Mat, Thom, Talmanes, Noal... Why are people shocked and appalled when he suddenly gets too big for his britches and jumps into the frying pan. He's on top of the world, having defeated the undeafeatable Snakes and Foxes. Give the kid a break, he needs to get his hands dirty. I expected this from the start, and was stoked to see little Gaidal Cain kick it up a notch. !BAM! Drop the sociopathic rhetoric, it's cheesing up the set. This is a fantasy novel, not an episode of the First 48.

 

4.) Dark Aiel! From the Shadow Rising, since RJ explained that some Aiel go off to fight Sightblinder, I always thought that the Dark One probably turns some of them. The filed down teeth, the red veil, so fucking awesome. I can't wait to see them go up against Heeth Tower. I really like Malinarin Rai from the prologue, I think they should go back to Heeth Tower and show some of the action. I know we saw it burning, but Maradon burned too and we still got to get in there and EXPERIENCE it. I want more Heeth Tower. Being invaded by Dark Aiel.

 

5.) Rand's dream with Lanfear in it really creeped me out. We don't have time for this shit, but I suppose its only fair to have the final showdown between she and Moraine.

 

6.) Tarwin's Gap. Nynaeve and some select Aes Sedai assistance will probably arrive to a half decimated army of Trollocs and the Last Stand of The Seven Towers. Lan and a scant few others embattled and surrounded, having wiped out more than half the 150,000 Shadowspawn. Nynaeve arrives just in time to see him die and heals death. She helped cleanse saiden, healed madness, ungentled Logain AND passed the Aes Sedai test without surrendering herself. She can Heal Death. I have harboured this theory since the turn of the century.

 

 

Lets be off to Shayol Ghul then shall we.

[decrepid dragon]

 

3.) Why is everyone hating on Olver? His parents were murdered by Shaido and he was raised by mercenaries during the Last Days before some Unspeakable Evil Force threatens to take over the world. He gets to hear nothing but stories of battle and epic glory from Mat, Thom, Talmanes, Noal... Why are people shocked and appalled when he suddenly gets too big for his britches and jumps into the frying pan. He's on top of the world, having defeated the undeafeatable Snakes and Foxes. Give the kid a break, he needs to get his hands dirty. I expected this from the start, and was stoked to see little Gaidal Cain kick it up a notch. !BAM! Drop the sociopathic rhetoric, it's cheesing up the set. This is a fantasy novel, not an episode of the First 48.

I personally loved that Olver bit, really gives him a personality more than just that small kid that follows Mat around.

 

6.) Tarwin's Gap. Nynaeve and some select Aes Sedai assistance will probably arrive to a half decimated army of Trollocs and the Last Stand of The Seven Towers. Lan and a scant few others embattled and surrounded, having wiped out more than half the 150,000 Shadowspawn. Nynaeve arrives just in time to see him die and heals death. She helped cleanse saiden, healed madness, ungentled Logain AND passed the Aes Sedai test without surrendering herself. She can Heal Death. I have harboured this theory since the turn of the century.

 

I remember one bit where Cadsuane was talking to Sumeko and telling her how she was the best at healing even though tey both knew Nynaeve, but it was obvious she had nothing. And now Nyn is healing madness and removing compulsion, she is like the talent of graendel and semhirage combined. I can see the BT mostly being 13+13 tricked, then Rand comes in with Callandor and shields them all (I reckon it could happen even before he turned into this new Light blessed Rand, callandor is the second strongest Sa-angreal of our time after all) and Nynaeve somehow teaching all the healers how to remove the DO influnce from them all.

[AutomatedTeller]

btw - I'm almost certain that Cyndane will return to the Light.

 

Why?

 

Because, at some point in the series, someone said something like this "There is none so deep in the Shadow that he cannot be brought back to the light"

 

And as far as I can tell, absolutely no one has converted from the Dark to the Light so far (Verin doesn't really count, in my opinion).

 

So, someone will, cause you can't mention a loaded gun without it going off at some point.

 

RJ explicitly stated that NO Forsaken was going to come back to the Light by the end of the series. (I don't know why he said that because that took out the element of wondering... lol)

 

Thanks :) I didn't realize that. Well, that's good.

 

And thanks for the reminder on Ingtar, too :)

[Sharaman]

Who cares about truning to the Light? Pillow friending's the ticket. What's the point of Cynfear being hawt if we don't get a spot of pillow friending?

[Bob T Dwarf]

5. Rand dreams of Cyndane.

 

I found this very interesting, I don't think she can be redeemed, not fully. I do, however think that if she is reaching out to Rand, she may be angry enough with the DO/desperate to escape enough that she would help Rand.

 

I have no evidence to support this, and its probably just a wild guess, but what if she gives Rand the last hint he needs to seal up the bore for permanents? she was the one who made the bore in the first place, after all. maybe she knows something about it that LTT never learned. It is very likely still a trap, but she made the bore surely she will have some small role in closing it, intentional or otherwise?

 

 

I like this theory. In truth, I'm not sure I understand this dream was, uhm... fake. But who knows. Actually, I WOULD like to think that Lanfear is reaching out to Rand for help... that maybe she doesn't want to be a Forsaken anymore. I mean, she mainly loves Rand/LTT more than anything right?

 

Nope. As LTT via Rand points out at one point, Mieren always loved power more than anything else. Lews Theren was only a means to achieving more power for her.

[Jagen Sedai]

Guess i forgot that detail.

 

View PostAutomatedTeller, there was one Darkfriend who came back into the Light. It was some Borderlander in book 2, but I forgot his name. He was redeemed in front of Rand/with Rand right before he died.

[decrepid dragon]

Lord Ingtar I believe

[nolirion]

Lord Ingtar I believe

Yes

[A. Pseudonym]

I suspect that one of Lanfear's wishes was that Lews Therin would love her.

 

Otherwise why would Rand so suddenly feel desire for her?

[Crael123]

I suspect that one of Lanfear's wishes was that Lews Therin would love her.

 

Otherwise why would Rand so suddenly feel desire for her?

 

That would be really interesting. and incredibly bad.

[Solmyr]

I suspect that one of Lanfear's wishes was that Lews Therin would love her.

 

Otherwise why would Rand so suddenly feel desire for her?

 

That would be really interesting. and incredibly bad.

I am not certain they have the power to grant such a wish. They are not gods after all. Certain things are not within their power, else why would they even make treaties with the Aes Sedai, create doorways between their world and Randland and make rules for visitors?

 

The way I see it, the Finns only have power over things/people in their world and to a lesser extent, things/people that have visited their world. Rand has visited them, true, but he hasn't made any bargains. He only got questions answered and left. The Aelfinns even showed him hostility and he had to use a flaming sword to keep them at bay - it implied they didn't want anything to do with him, they wanted him gone.

 

Mat's memories imply that the Finns can somehow access the memories of people who have visited the tower and since some of these memories show death, it means that they can access memories of said people after they have been to the tower. Mat is worried that they may have strings attached to him, but we have no evicence for that.

 

In conclusion I believe it unlikely the Finns can influence anyone in Randland, let alone powerfully enough to make him fall in love with someone else. Quietly collecting memories is one thing, super-powerful compulsion aimed at the Dragon Reborn through time, space and worlds quite another.

 

ETA: The 13th depository confirms my speculation on the Eelfin.

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/03/tor-questions-of-week.html#eelfin

[Hopefire]

My guess is that the Lanfear plotline will go something like this:

 

Rand: Against my better judgment, I'm rescuing you, Lanfear.

Lanfear: /swoon My hero!

Rand: Er, no hanky-panky. I've got enough woman troubles.

Lanfear: WHAT? THIS SHALL NOT BE TOLERATED!

Rand: Er, what's with the a'dam?

Lanfear: Mwahaha, you've fallen into my trap again, Lews Therin!

Rand: ...

Moiraine: Oh, shut up. /zap

Rand: Thanks.

Lanfear: I'm not quite dead.

Rand: Yay!

Moiraine: /glare

Lanfear: At this point, I have nothing to gain if the Great Lord wins, but if he loses, I could try this again in a couple of Ages. So, the trick to sealing the Bore is...

[Fryn]

Somehow at this point I don't think the male a'dam would even matter. I get the feeling it would be like being under the effect of the guardian and he could just use the true power (or the light power?) or whatever he was getting at when he said "The Guardian blocks the One Power, The One Power only." Much like I don't think shielding would work on Rand anymore.

[cap10kirk]

 

3.) Why is everyone hating on Olver? His parents were murdered by Shaido and he was raised by mercenaries during the Last Days before some Unspeakable Evil Force threatens to take over the world. He gets to hear nothing but stories of battle and epic glory from Mat, Thom, Talmanes, Noal... Why are people shocked and appalled when he suddenly gets too big for his britches and jumps into the frying pan. He's on top of the world, having defeated the undeafeatable Snakes and Foxes. Give the kid a break, he needs to get his hands dirty. I expected this from the start, and was stoked to see little Gaidal Cain kick it up a notch. !BAM! Drop the sociopathic rhetoric, it's cheesing up the set. This is a fantasy novel, not an episode of the First 48.

Aman to this brother. This is still the same kid that regularly gave up his coats to street urchins in Ebu Dar. Can't wait for AMOL.

[A. Pseudonym]

I am not certain they have the power to grant such a wish. They are not gods after all. Certain things are not within their power, else why would they even make treaties with the Aes Sedai, create doorways between their world and Randland and make rules for visitors?

 

The way I see it, the Finns only have power over things/people in their world and to a lesser extent, things/people that have visited their world. Rand has visited them, true, but he hasn't made any bargains. He only got questions answered and left. The Aelfinns even showed him hostility and he had to use a flaming sword to keep them at bay - it implied they didn't want anything to do with him, they wanted him gone.

 

Mat's memories imply that the Finns can somehow access the memories of people who have visited the tower and since some of these memories show death, it means that they can access memories of said people after they have been to the tower. Mat is worried that they may have strings attached to him, but we have no evicence for that.

 

In conclusion I believe it unlikely the Finns can influence anyone in Randland, let alone powerfully enough to make him fall in love with someone else. Quietly collecting memories is one thing, super-powerful compulsion aimed at the Dragon Reborn through time, space and worlds quite another.

 

You might be right. I don't know if they can influence events beyond their realm.

 

But it seems as if they gather memories of those who visit them, so this suggests that once one does visit them then one is under their influence from then on, while outside their realm.

 

At least, the Foxes...

 

But Rand has not visited the Foxes.

 

The reason I suggest this is that Rand, speaking as Lews Therin in TSR and thereafter as himself rejects Lanfear, yet suddenly feels desire for her when he meets her again in his dreams in ToM.

It's a change. It may not be the result of a wish, but it's worth noting.

[FarShainMael]

6. Tai'shar Malkier but when will Nyn get preggers or is she keeping it under her braid?

 

I don't think she's pregnant, I think if she had been she would not have been allowed to be tested for the shawl. That may have damaged the children?

[analyticalkeys]

I suspect that one of Lanfear's wishes was that Lews Therin would love her.

 

Otherwise why would Rand so suddenly feel desire for her?

 

That would be really interesting. and incredibly bad.

 

That wouldn't happen. It's obvious that he's just feeling Lews Therin's previous feelings of affection. It's not like Lews Therin hated Lanfear.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I suspect that one of Lanfear's wishes was that Lews Therin would love her.

 

Otherwise why would Rand so suddenly feel desire for her?

 

That would be really interesting. and incredibly bad.

 

That wouldn't happen. It's obvious that he's just feeling Lews Therin's previous feelings of affection. It's not like Lews Therin hated Lanfear.

 

He did, actually. He was hot for her until he got to know her, but once that happened he dropped her like a dirty rock.

[Duskfire]

You can still hate women and desire them though, especially with the complicated history of those two. Someone like Lanfear you would never truly get over, even when your brain tells you its a horrible idea. For all we know Lews Therin always desired her, and now that him and Rand are one, that desire has been passed onto Rand.

[Sharaman]

Rand had the hots for her as well. The key here is that LTT fell out of love because she was powerful and craved more power and was prepared to go darkside for it. But both LTT-rand have the damsel in distress syndrome and now that she's in trouble, feelings might re-kindle.

Yes, Lanfear got three bargains--- we don't know what they are.

[Alternate34]

My quicky thoughts on each event.

 

1. Graendal's in trouble.

 

That she is. The other who has been given the task of striking Rand directly is probably Demandred. My guess anyway.

 

2. Perrin realises Noam chose to become a wolf.

 

I enjoyed this. It is a somewhat more subtle affirmation of being a part of love. Noam's life was terrible and he chose to abandon the pain for a life where he belonged. It also affirms another theme in the book that one's beliefs are really one's own. Perrin thought it terrible to become the wolf. Noam thought it wonderful. Neither is really wrong and Noam shouldn't be pitied. It also affirms another theme of Perrin's emotional struggle, victimhood v. free choice.

 

3. Olver's seems to be a budding sociopath, and Caemlyn is invaded by Shadowspawn. Talmanes fears the loss of the Dragons.

 

This was the part of the epilogue that hit me in the face. This is big. And I don't mean Olver. Caemlyn is the center of Andor and is now controlled by the Shadow. Throw in the Black Tower and Andor is basically half a shadow base. But there is more. It compromises Elayne's ability to rule both Andor and Cairhien as she can't even effectively rule one country. Cairhienen machinations may challenge her authority. The only part of Andor clearly with the Light is the Two Rivers, which isn't firmly with Elayne after her agreements with Perrin. Lastly, she may be accused of being friends with Shadow. Where did those Trollocs come from? Did they just appear within your city? But there is even more. Mat could have prevented this by opening up a simple letter. Letter open, enter Caemlyn, destroy Waygate, done. He doesn't because he is stubbournly set against White Tower strings. His choice to run from them rather than engage them basically doomed Caemlyn. That might make him a wee bit depressed.

 

Also, the Shadow has dragons now. Good luck holding any stronghold against them.

 

4. Creepy Red Aiel Dudes.

 

They are very creepy. I tend to think they are some weird combination of Aiel and Darkspawn creation from their description.

 

5. Rand dreams of Cyndane.

 

I won't comment much on the details of this. We know it could be a trap. We know there is a slim possibility that it is sincere. Even if it is sincere on her part, it could still be a trap. Moridin let's her into Rand's dreams, knowing she will plead for help, as bait. Whether she is sincere or not, I think it is a trap.

 

Which is intriguing because it shows the Shadow adapting. Former Rand probably wouldn't care too much about saving Cyndane. She is why Moiraine "died" in the first place. He would only pursue this if he thought he could gain the upper hand and obtain information in some way. The Shadow would have less motivation in this case to lay the trap. However, since Rand has firmly embraced Lews Therin, his emotions about Cyndane are more confused. Lews did love Cyndane once and I think that Cyndane's feelings for Lews are more complicated than Lews = Power, I love Lews. The Shadow is playing upon Rand's newfound affinity for Cyndane because of the melding. The trap gives Rand a chance to potentially save someone he has complicated feelings for.

 

6. Lan reaches the Gap.

 

A neat scene, but not too much in there. His battle is unwinnable, which kind of makes me think something crazy will happen similar to the saving of Maradon, especially since Rand promised to support Lan.