Discuss the Epiclogue

[aynatal2000]

3. Olver's seems to be a budding sociopath, and Caemlyn is invaded by Shadowspawn. Talmanes fears the loss of the Dragons.

Surely unless every single one of the Kin Elayne had in Caemlyn went with her to the 'big meeting' or conveniently died, one of them should have opened a Gateway to all the armies. Now I'm sure there'll be some reason it won't happen so smoothly, but the invasion should soon be facing hundreds of thousands of troops and hundreds of channelers in short order. Which given how a few dozen channelers went against 100k Shadowspawn in KOD, should see them toast pretty quickly.

 

Of course the Shadow could choose this fight as the time to bring their channelers out of the Shadows to fight. Or Demandred finally show what he's doing and bring forces. Or the Seanchan attack happen at the same time right at the start of AMOL so the 'Light forces' have to split to fight two battles at once, but as it currently stands it shouldn't be a big set back - not as large scale destruction as Maradon. I expect some spanner will get thrown in the works - the fun is trying to guess which one.

But Egwene has proven that in the dream you only have to not accept the totality of the A'dam and snick you disarm it.Some of the Last Battle will be fought in the dream... I wonder how Tuon will react when all her damane and suldame are rendered useless.Using the Dream Spike the Shadow will think that they have Caemlyn sewed up easy as you please, but I thin Caemlyn is going to be a trap for the Shadow and its hidden forces.I think Team Light is gonna open up a can of whup ass... and Logain is gonna Rock!!!!

The key bit there is in the dreamworld. Egwene disbelieves the a'dam can effect her so it doesn't. They can't do that in the 'real' world. If Tuon slaps an a'dam on Egwene she's a damane until someone else releases her, no matter how strong willed she is or wishes otherwise.

Add to this, even if some of the Last Battle is somehow fought in Tel'aran'rhiod that doesn't mean the Seanchan are going to be involved in that fight. The Seanchan have never once had a connection to Tel'aran'rhiod; why would they magically and suddenly enter into that fight?

If the dream spike is moved from Black Tower to Caemlyn or any other site, then Tel'aran'rhiod is the only way in for Team Light in an instant; no gateways, no skimming, nada.If the spike's uses are to keep folks with the power from entering your safehold/area to,it leaves the Dream World as the only option... and Rand and Nynaeve proved that actions going on in the real world can be touched(a'dam) and fought(balefired) against in the dream - Rahvin and Moghedien.Also Team Light doesn't use any of the terangreal to enter the dream without sleeping- but they can; if they couldn't why is this thing called a dream spike? Why did Moridin warn Graendel that Perrin could access Tel'aran'rhiod when he gave it to her?.We assume that access is only during sleep...Mesaana wasn't sleeping,Moghedien wasn't,Rahvin wasn't,Slayer wasn't.We assume the Seanchan can't access Tel'aran'rhiod; did you miss that they can make terangreal?The rings of Tuon's assasins in the White Tower? They cultivate leashed ones with Talents - those that can find ore,etc. That was mentioned as far back as the Battle of Falme in the books timeline; why do we assume they cannot or better yet, will not find Tel'aran'rhiod? The Towers of Midnight in the Seanchan empire were mentioned for a reason and not just that the Royal family shall go there and right a wrong - is it their color (ebony) that denotes the midnight of their name... or is it a word association with the Dream World of Tel'aran'rhiod, which was prominent in this book and had major battles fought in it by Team Light against the Dark ones minions.

I just think that all the players will/can go there... and the Dreadlords/Ashamen of the Black Tower are already staking out territory( "I have only found two of these; the other is being put to good use.")

[WhiteJoker]

If the dream spike is moved from Black Tower to Caemlyn or any other site, then Tel'aran'rhiod is the only way in for Team Light in an instant; no gateways, no skimming, nada.If the spike's uses are to keep folks with the power from entering your safehold/area to,it leaves the Dream World as the only option...

Except there shows no indication that the spike will be moved as really there's no reason to move it. The purpose of the spike is to either prevent people from entering or from leaving. The shadow doesn't need to bother protecting against people entering because either they don't care about what's their (so what if the coalition jumps on top a shadowspawn army? There are always more), want people to go there (they want Rand at Shayol Ghul, that's why nobody is allowed to kill him), or nobody knows where it is (Moridin's fortress). In addition, due to the warping effect of the Dark One's presence at the Bore, one cannot Travel directly to his prison's location, they have to travel to Shayol Ghul first, and regardless of how many forces you dump into there, I can all but promise you that the Shadow will have infinite numbers more sitting around the city since that's their primary staging point (it's where all the forges that craft the cursed weapons and armor that the Trollocs and Fades use). The purpose of the spike is to trap people, to prevent them from running, furthermore there is no real reason to move the spike from the Black Tower since what it's being used for now is far more worthwhile then something so banal as blocking off a relatively small area and forcing people to port in outside of it and walk for half an hour or so. The benefit is minuscule to non-existent.

 

and Rand and Nynaeve proved that actions going on in the real world can be touched(a'dam) and fought(balefired) against in the dream - Rahvin and Moghedien.

Since when? Rand and Rahvin went into the dream to fight with one another. While they were in the dream they could effect one another because they were governed by the laws of that world. However Rahvin couldn't use the laws of Tel'aran'rhiod to, say, turn Rand into an animal while Rand was in the waking world; he had to wait for Rand to go into the dream first. As for Moghedien, since when has anything Nynaeve done to transferred into the waking world? The a'dams and the like she conjured into existence in the dream only existed there, that's why she made Moghedien drink the tea. That last bit though was done entirely in the dream and followed the laws of Tel'aran'rhiod: what somebody does to you in the dream happens to your body. What happens in the dream though doesn't negate what happens in the real world though.

 

Consider it like a dam... hell, that's probably a good place to start since we're talking about the Power and a'dams.

 

A -> B -> C

 

Using the diagram above, assume that A is the Source and that C is the channeler. Now let's assume that B is the a'dam, which is also our dam metaphor. In order for the Source to reach the channeler, it has to pass through B, the dam. That's not going to happen unless a person is allowed to by whoever holds the leash.

 

A -> B -> D -> C

 

Same variables, same equations, however now we have D. D is the assumption that we're in Tel'aran'rhiod and somebody has willed an a'dam on to you. While they can block your access to the Source through that method, as proven by Nynaeve and Moghedian, you can also will it out of existence if your will is greater than the person who placed it on you. That said, if you're wearing an a'dam outside of the dream, you still can't reach the source even if the person inside of the dream holding the leash to the D a'dam wants you to, or if you create an a'dam around yourself and will it off because you're still blocked in the real world from reaching the Source. This has been shown through the various times that Nynaeve and Elayne faced Black sisters in the dream and shielded them either inside or outside of the Dream to prevent them from channeling spirit into their various ter'angrael.

 

Tel'aran'rhiod and the real world are linked, one is the reflection of the other, however Tel'aran'rhiod is a reflection of the real world, not the other way around. Willing something out of existence in the dream does not negate it's existence in the real world. We know this is true because during Egwene's grand melee with Masaana in the Tower they balefired and blasted countless walls and floors apart yet none of that damage was reflected in the Tower. To take two other examples; when Rand confronts Ishamael in the Stone they fight in the Dream, destroying parts of the Stone in the process, yet when Rand returns to the real world, none of that damage is there, this is also repeated in Caemlyn when Rand fights with Rahvin.

 

In other words, while the Seanchan may enter into the dream, their damane would not be able to will their real world collars out of existence or negate their effects. However, this entire argument is moot anyways because even if the damane were in Tel'aran'rhiod, they've been conditioned to seek the collar.

 

Also Team Light doesn't use any of the terangreal to enter the dream without sleeping- but they can

Except they've been repeatedly told how wrong and evil it is. Regardless of that, why would they bother? There is no real edge they can gain since you'd have to train people to use the dream where a stray thought or nightmare could spell the end for you.

 

if they couldn't why is this thing called a dream spike?

Because it exists in Tel'aran'rhiod and is shaped like a spike. When Moridin activates it, it disappears and reappears in Tel'aran'rhiod. We know this because he asks Graendal if she knows where it is now, i.e. how to find it in the dream and then move it. The naming scheme of most Age of Legends devices (which includes ter'angrael) are, as a general rule, very straightforward; the dreamspike is no different.

 

Why did Moridin warn Graendel that Perrin could access Tel'aran'rhiod when he gave it to her?.

Because he knew she intended to use it as part of a trap and a trap is rather pointless if somebody takes it and puts it somewhere else where nobody's going to be caught by it. The dreamspike, when activated, exists only in Tel'aran'rhiod which means if one of the people you're trying to trap can easily access that domain, it also means they can move the damned thing and avoid your trap. He told her so she could prepare for the eventuality, and also why he lent her Slayer, because he makes a fairly good sentinel, even if he failed.

 

We assume that access is only during sleep...Mesaana wasn't sleeping,Moghedien wasn't,Rahvin wasn't,Slayer wasn't.

With regards to entering Tel'aran'rhiod in person, you're wrong. Rahvin entered it bodily, yes, however none of the others have, and Rahvin only did it because he knew he couldn't confront Rand directly and so forced him into a trap. Moghedien has never, as we've seen, entered the dream in person. When she and Nynaeve encounter Rand during the battle with Rahvin, Moghedien comments that Rand is there in the flesh, most strongly than either of them (her and Nynaeve), and that it's very dangerous. Mesaana, if you read properly, did enter by dreaming because they found her later on, effectively brain dead, in the Tower. Remember that sentence where Egwene tells Gawyn about an Aes Sedai named Danielle? That was Mesaana.

 

Slayer is ambiguous due to the fact that he's an aberration with his two souls and personalities. However, when Perrin was facing him in the Two Rivers and shot Slayer in the dream, Lord Luc fled from the room he was staying in at the inn, rather then where he had been shot by Perrin. This implies that like the others, he does need to sleep in order to enter Tel'aran'rhiod, however it just comes more naturally to him.

 

We assume the Seanchan can't access Tel'aran'rhiod; did you miss that they can make terangreal?The rings of Tuon's assasins in the White Tower?

Replicating ter'angrael and making new ones are completely different things as we've been shown by Elayne. All indication points to the Seanchan creating a'dam out of replication and not because they allow their damane to innovate and come up with new ter'angrael. Considering that the Bloodknife rings themselves are all identical, it follows form. If the Seanchan had access to all sorts of ter'angrael then why don't they have the ter'angrael that were spoken of in the Age of Legends? Why don't they have tools which let them fly, which let them communicate over vast distances without issue, which let them see like televisions, or even glowbulbs? Occam's razor indicates that they likely know how to copy and have been copying the ter'angrael that Luther brought with him, or which they found off of the Aes Sedai witch-queens they conquered, but haven't been making new ones or recreating old ones.

 

They cultivate leashed ones with Talents - those that can find ore,etc. That was mentioned as far back as the Battle of Falme in the books timeline; why do we assume they cannot or better yet, will not find Tel'aran'rhiod?

Because those Talents are reflexive. Nynaeve's Talent for reading the weather blossomed before she could consciously channel. In addition to this she was constantly exposed to it. Elayne's the only person with the Talent for recreating ter'angrael that we've seen so far, if that's actually a Talent and not just a skill. However, even to use it fully, she had to test and experiment with ter'angrael, a rather large cache too might I add, before she could figure out how to replicate them. The Seanchan do not seem like they're a society which would bother with this with their damane. Consider this too: the Seanchan, when they raided the White Tower did so for marath'damane, they made no thought of looking for ter'angrael.

 

The Towers of Midnight in the Seanchan empire were mentioned for a reason and not just that the Royal family shall go there and right a wrong - is it their color (ebony) that denotes the midnight of their name... or is it a word association with the Dream World of Tel'aran'rhiod, which was prominent in this book and had major battles fought in it by Team Light against the Dark ones minions.

And the Towers of Midnight is over and no Seanchan in Tel'aran'rhiod... I don't see what this argument is trying to imply. I could get it if you were trying to argue, before the book was released, that it would or could happen in this book, but it doesn't, so why are you invoking the title when nothing of the sort happens in the book and said title is really only hugely relevant for that book.

 

I just think that all the players will/can go there... and the Dreadlords/Ashamen of the Black Tower are already staking out territory( "I have only found two of these; the other is being put to good use.")

Moridin's been collecting for a while, note that his storeroom has a lot. He mentions the two spikes for a reason; we see both in use in the book. The second spike is clearly being used at the Black Tower to keep people from leaving and escaping so that more channelers can be turned to the Shadow; this is reinforced by Taim's conversation with Pevera over how people have to ask for permission to leave the Black Tower's grounds and that Taim's been slowly converting holdouts into those shadow puppets, likely through the 13x13 method mentioned by Sheriam during Egwene's Accepted trial.

 

The Seanchan have no intention of attacking the Black Tower; I don't even know if they're aware of it's existence. All shown plans indicate that the Seanchan are going to conduct a full scale assault on the White Tower using Traveling. There is absolutely no reason why they would further complicate that plan by including a Tel'aran'rhiod attack, especially since every Aes Sedai in the White Tower will wake up to face that assault, thus rendering any forces you have in Tel'aran'rhiod moot. The only other reason you'd bother is so that you can move them from place to place quickly like how Egwene used the dream to travel to Salidar however we know the Seanchan don't have that because if they did they'd have been using it instead of being so surprised by the Traveling weave that Elaida is forced to show them.

[Durinax]

the main thing for the sudden appearance into tar is that they would have no control so they would be dangerous to everyone, thus everyone in tar would try to get them out until there is time for training. They would be virtually useless for months and with TG started they would only be a hinderance

[Leafburner]

5. Rand dreams of Cyndane.

 

Rand has warded his personal dreams so no one can get in. So what was that "NOT TAR" dreeam he had in TGS when he and Moridin shared a chat by the fire? I think Moridin's link to Rand's mind - brought about by the crossing of balefire streams - has provided Moridin a window into Rand's mind that he can use to manipulate Rand's dreams.

 

It may be that Cyndane is acting, but I think more likely Moridin is truly torturing her to draw rand out so he will be distracted attempting to save her while the Shadow's attack on Randland begins.

[Danvighar]

I caught something buried in the third-to-last Glossary entry:

 

Towers of Midnight, the: ... Legend has it that in time of dire need, the Imperial family will return to the Towers of Midnight and "right that which is wrong".

 

The entire Imperial family (except for Fortuona and Mat) was wiped out. Not sure if this is Last Battle-specific, or a reference to the potential Mat/Tuon outrigger novel where they re-conquer Seanchan... If this is something that has to happen during the Last Battle, it's suggestive that this will have something to do with disbanding the a'dam. At the least, there's a certain poetic justice to it since the Aes Sedai that created the a'dam let forth cries that shook the Towers of Midnight.

 

Interesting that the Towers of Midnight are "Towers meant for war".

Again the Seed slays ancient wrong

Before the Great Lord comes

 

Considering that, at least according to the ToM Epiclogue, the Shadow Prophecies are written from the Shadow's point of view, are we talking the same Ancient Wrong? If not... hm.

[Orderofolde]

1. Graendal: Well this told us who killed Asmo. I reckon Graendal will have some of SH's rough treatment and then a mind-trap

 

5. Rand and Cyndane: Desire ah..... Rand has enough women issues but it'd be very interesting to see if this is some kind of back up plan, like a trap.

 

6. Lan: I have a feeling he will die... It kinda sucks but I always considered he'd be the first major character from the first book to die

Don't forget that in her testing, Nyn. saw one potential future, she had married Lan and they ruled as King and Queen. That leaves some small hope if the right choices are made. Plus he's getting all kinds of help right now, maybe more to come. We still haven't seen our winning choice of an army appearing to march to the last battle.

[Haran]

Has anyone mentioned that Olver probably has the foxhead medallion by now? The flawed copy of it I mean. I can see him surviving some sort of attack that would have killed him if he didn’t have the medallion and then using this fluke to stab someone who thought him dead in the back.

 

Maybe a heroic death scene like the one in Lord of the Rings where the King of Rohan (here played by Talmanes) falls of his horse, a forsaken/Shaidar Haran/whatever leans over him and then Olver/Merry comes up and stabs the guy.

[Bob T Dwarf]

She did not in any way say it was important. :) She SHOULD have, but she DID NOT. The 'I might not need you' implies otherwise. So can people stop saying Verin made the message sound dire? She did not. Heck, before that she warns him about the DF posters, and that is said far more balefully.

 

Good find that! Your right, nowhere does Verin stress that its important, and if anything she makes it seem casual and that it doesnt matter whether he opens it or not. I am sure if Mat knew of the importance of the letter he would have opened it, but to him it could have been anything.

 

Reread the stuff before the quoted passage. The Wheel had made it impossible for Verin to go anywhere but to Mat.

 

If Mat was rubbing even two brain cells together, he would have appreciated that fact. But, instead of doing any constructive thinking, he lapsed into his paranoia about Aes Sedai.

 

Fact of life: No matter how perfectly you believe you have done anything, somebody can always find an even better way. So sure, Verin could have phrased things differently, but since Mat was only taking counsel from his own irrational fears, it wouldn't have mattered, he'd have rationalized some way to avoid opening the letter anyway.

 

The problem is not anything Verin did or did not do. The problem is Mat's paranoia, and his unwillingness to address it.

 

Mat is a fascinating psychological study: On the one hand his grandiosity knows no limits ( he's SO important that every Aes Sedai he encounters wants nothing more than to ensnare him in some grand devious plot ) and on the other hand he's totally insignificant ( he foolishly believes that there is some place he can go that will let him safely sit-out Tarmon Gaidon, and that he should do so because he's only an insignificant kid from a backwoods village and not really needed ).

 

In short, he's a shoo-in for Prat of the Week yet again this week.

[didymos]

She did not in any way say it was important. :) She SHOULD have, but she DID NOT. The 'I might not need you' implies otherwise. So can people stop saying Verin made the message sound dire? She did not. Heck, before that she warns him about the DF posters, and that is said far more balefully.

 

Good find that! Your right, nowhere does Verin stress that its important, and if anything she makes it seem casual and that it doesnt matter whether he opens it or not. I am sure if Mat knew of the importance of the letter he would have opened it, but to him it could have been anything.

 

Reread the stuff before the quoted passage. The Wheel had made it impossible for Verin to go anywhere but to Mat.

 

 

And again: she herself made it out to be because he and the Band needed a gateway to Caemlyn, and then acted like she was doing the letter thing because he'd inconvenienced her with his ta'veren voodoo and she had other stuff she wanted to go do. The closest she came to actually making a connection between the letter and her being drawn to Mat was to wonder aloud why it was her and not some other Aes Sedai that got roped in, but it just came off as idle griping.

[Exy]

A couple people mentioned using the dragons in Caemlyn but given what they do, they'd probably do as much damage to the city and its citizens as the Trollocs would. They're not the sort of thing that works in urban combat.

 

Shadowspawn are inside the walls, in huge numbers, and the city is already burning before Shen an Calhar even notices -- whatever happens, even if the forces of Light muster themselves to its defense, the city is going to be horribly, horribly damaged and a lot of people are going to die. Losing a city that has been as important in the story as Caemlyn has a lot of dramatic weight, and the Light side hasn't really lost that much thus far. So apologies for resorting to extratextual reasons here, but I suspect Caemlyn is going to be mostly destroyed before this is over.

 

Also, this reading of Olver as "sociopathic" is so crazily off the mark that I have to question the sanity of the people proposing it. The kid's had a messed-up life and he could end in a messed-up end, except the story is never going to have time to show it. He's far from a sociopath, though.

[waffle]

She did not in any way say it was important. :) She SHOULD have, but she DID NOT. The 'I might not need you' implies otherwise. So can people stop saying Verin made the message sound dire? She did not. Heck, before that she warns him about the DF posters, and that is said far more balefully.

 

Good find that! Your right, nowhere does Verin stress that its important, and if anything she makes it seem casual and that it doesnt matter whether he opens it or not. I am sure if Mat knew of the importance of the letter he would have opened it, but to him it could have been anything.

 

Reread the stuff before the quoted passage. The Wheel had made it impossible for Verin to go anywhere but to Mat.

 

Seriously? You bought that?

 

The fact is, if Verin had said: "wait 10 days then read the letter. After that you can do whatever you want" it would of all been peachy.

[Mr Ares]

She did not in any way say it was important. :) She SHOULD have, but she DID NOT. The 'I might not need you' implies otherwise. So can people stop saying Verin made the message sound dire? She did not. Heck, before that she warns him about the DF posters, and that is said far more balefully.

 

Good find that! Your right, nowhere does Verin stress that its important, and if anything she makes it seem casual and that it doesnt matter whether he opens it or not. I am sure if Mat knew of the importance of the letter he would have opened it, but to him it could have been anything.

 

Reread the stuff before the quoted passage. The Wheel had made it impossible for Verin to go anywhere but to Mat.

 

Seriously? You bought that?

 

The fact is, if Verin had said: "wait 10 days then read the letter. After that you can do whatever you want" it would of all been peachy.

Unless he decided not to read the letter even then, to avoid getting caught up in AS schemes.

[vicmar]

 

 

Talmanes to the rescue.

 

 

 

 

I read the 1st 9 pages and got too frustrated, so I registered and didn't read 10 or 11... but why hasn't anyone considered that Talmanes and the Band will break into Caemlyn, snag the dragons, and decimate the Shadowspawn? That would be a good way of showing the slines (sry for the Anathem reference) that they too can wreck havok on the baddies w/o getting too down and dirty.

 

I realize that would result in the destruction of Caemlyn (I really hope I'm spelling that correctly, not interested enough to check though o.O), but that seems likely anyway unless the Really Big Meeting turns around/stalls/makes a pitstop before continuing north for the LB

 

Are you asking me why no one else presented this idea before my post? If so, I surely cannot provide an answer.

 

I had just read this thread at breakneck speed, and becuase you didn't flat out say "Talmanes, Dragons, Bang." I didn't realize you were inferring what I was thinking bc my eyes/mind were all slushy.

 

><

[smileyman]

Talmanes to the rescue.

Eh, Talmanes is Demandred.

It became blindingly obvious in TGS.

 

No it didn't. Besides, if Talmanes was Demandred why would he care if Caemlyn burned down?

 

"Light preserve us," Talmanes whispered. "It's burning. The city is burning." He shook his head, as if clearing it, then raised a call. "to arms! Trollocs in Caemlyn! The city is at war! To arms, men! Burn me, we have to get into the city and salvage those dragons! If those fall into the Shadow's hands, we're all dead men!"

 

Hardly the actions of a Forsaken. First praying in the name of the Light, then rousing forces for a defense, then being worried about the dragons falling into the hands of the Shadow.

[vicmar]

Talmanes to the rescue.

Eh, Talmanes is Demandred.

It became blindingly obvious in TGS.

 

No it didn't. Besides, if Talmanes was Demandred why would he care if Caemlyn burned down?

 

"Light preserve us," Talmanes whispered. "It's burning. The city is burning." He shook his head, as if clearing it, then raised a call. "to arms! Trollocs in Caemlyn! The city is at war! To arms, men! Burn me, we have to get into the city and salvage those dragons! If those fall into the Shadow's hands, we're all dead men!"

 

Hardly the actions of a Forsaken. First praying in the name of the Light, then rousing forces for a defense, then being worried about the dragons falling into the hands of the Shadow.

 

 

 

 

wwwwwwWWWWWWWWHHHHHOOOOOOOSSSSSSSHHHHhhhhhh

[smileyman]

Talmanes to the rescue.

Eh, Talmanes is Demandred.

It became blindingly obvious in TGS.

 

No it didn't. Besides, if Talmanes was Demandred why would he care if Caemlyn burned down?

 

"Light preserve us," Talmanes whispered. "It's burning. The city is burning." He shook his head, as if clearing it, then raised a call. "to arms! Trollocs in Caemlyn! The city is at war! To arms, men! Burn me, we have to get into the city and salvage those dragons! If those fall into the Shadow's hands, we're all dead men!"

 

Hardly the actions of a Forsaken. First praying in the name of the Light, then rousing forces for a defense, then being worried about the dragons falling into the hands of the Shadow.

 

 

 

 

wwwwwwWWWWWWWWHHHHHOOOOOOOSSSSSSSHHHHhhhhhh

 

???

[PrinceOfRavens]

thats what i call an emphatic post

 

its the complete lack of any comprehensible language which worries me

[kristineaskada]

Yeah, what was up with the Lanfear dream? Was it a ploy to get Rand to feel sorry for her, or is she really being tortured like that? That was one of the best epilogues in the series, by the way. Nice cliffhanger for AMoL.

 

The clues for Olver have been there, hopefully he will come around and embrace the light. The kids had a hard life though, so maybe not.

 

Cameyln being sacked was the biggest surprise. Perhaps that is why it is so crucial to TG. Ive been trying to think of who got left behind, but its not really clear. I'm glad that something bad is happening to Elayne, I never realized how arrogant she is until I read this book. The Light will probably lose the dragons, which may or may not change their approach to the Seanchan, who by the way seem to be gunnin pretty hard for the WT.

 

Elayne was written really bad in this book, she never came across as a dumb bimbo before. She is arrogant, though; she was raised to be a queen. I was glad that she got a set down, just to pull her back some. Now I wish Egwene would get a set down. Lol.

[tneva82]

and his equally irrational desire to always keep his promises.

 

Lol. When is keeping your word considered irrational? Maybe in your part of the world it's standard to give promise and break them at whim but atleast in most parts of the world I know of that would be considered extremely rude.

 

I for one never promise anything I don't have intention of keeping. And hats off for Mat for having moral fibre of keeping his promises.

[tneva82]

Talmanes to the rescue.

Eh, Talmanes is Demandred.

It became blindingly obvious in TGS.

 

No it didn't. Besides, if Talmanes was Demandred why would he care if Caemlyn burned down?

 

"Light preserve us," Talmanes whispered. "It's burning. The city is burning." He shook his head, as if clearing it, then raised a call. "to arms! Trollocs in Caemlyn! The city is at war! To arms, men! Burn me, we have to get into the city and salvage those dragons! If those fall into the Shadow's hands, we're all dead men!"

 

Hardly the actions of a Forsaken. First praying in the name of the Light, then rousing forces for a defense, then being worried about the dragons falling into the hands of the Shadow.

 

Besides RJ has already confirmed Talmanes is part of the people who CAN'T be Demandred. What was the book we still hadn't seen Demandred's alter ego for sure according to RJ? Lot later than Fires of Heaven when Talmanes appeared...

[dwn]

and his equally irrational desire to always keep his promises.

 

Lol. When is keeping your word considered irrational? Maybe in your part of the world it's standard to give promise and break them at whim but atleast in most parts of the world I know of that would be considered extremely rude.

 

I for one never promise anything I don't have intention of keeping. And hats off for Mat for having moral fibre of keeping his promises.

 

Keeping your word is honourable. Obsessively keeping your word to the exclusion of all other considerations is immature and irrational. Obsessive adherence to any absolute is immature and irrational.

 

-- dwn

[dwn]

Talmanes to the rescue.

Eh, Talmanes is Demandred.

It became blindingly obvious in TGS.

 

No it didn't. Besides, if Talmanes was Demandred why would he care if Caemlyn burned down?

 

"Light preserve us," Talmanes whispered. "It's burning. The city is burning." He shook his head, as if clearing it, then raised a call. "to arms! Trollocs in Caemlyn! The city is at war! To arms, men! Burn me, we have to get into the city and salvage those dragons! If those fall into the Shadow's hands, we're all dead men!"

 

Hardly the actions of a Forsaken. First praying in the name of the Light, then rousing forces for a defense, then being worried about the dragons falling into the hands of the Shadow.

 

Besides RJ has already confirmed Talmanes is part of the people who CAN'T be Demandred. What was the book we still hadn't seen Demandred's alter ego for sure according to RJ? Lot later than Fires of Heaven when Talmanes appeared...

 

RJ said we haven't seen an alter-ego for Demandred up to and including Crossroads of Twilight. BS extended that claim to Knife of Dreams. Theoryland's interview database has the relevant quotes.

 

-- dwn

[tneva82]

and his equally irrational desire to always keep his promises.

 

Lol. When is keeping your word considered irrational? Maybe in your part of the world it's standard to give promise and break them at whim but atleast in most parts of the world I know of that would be considered extremely rude.

 

I for one never promise anything I don't have intention of keeping. And hats off for Mat for having moral fibre of keeping his promises.

 

Keeping your word is honourable. Obsessively keeping your word to the exclusion of all other considerations is immature and irrational. Obsessive adherence to any absolute is immature and irrational.

 

-- dwn

 

Lol. Guess you enjoy being dishonest lier then.

[dwn]

and his equally irrational desire to always keep his promises.

 

Lol. When is keeping your word considered irrational? Maybe in your part of the world it's standard to give promise and break them at whim but atleast in most parts of the world I know of that would be considered extremely rude.

 

I for one never promise anything I don't have intention of keeping. And hats off for Mat for having moral fibre of keeping his promises.

 

Keeping your word is honourable. Obsessively keeping your word to the exclusion of all other considerations is immature and irrational. Obsessive adherence to any absolute is immature and irrational.

 

-- dwn

 

Lol. Guess you enjoy being dishonest lier then.

 

Obsessively adhere to an oath regardless of the consequences...or take sadistic pleasure in dishonesty. If only there were a rational path somewhere between those extremes.

 

-- dwn

[Mr Ares]

and his equally irrational desire to always keep his promises.

Lol. When is keeping your word considered irrational? Maybe in your part of the world it's standard to give promise and break them at whim but atleast in most parts of the world I know of that would be considered extremely rude.

 

I for one never promise anything I don't have intention of keeping. And hats off for Mat for having moral fibre of keeping his promises.

My point was not that it was acceptable to consistently break promises, nor that one should make promises one has no intention of keeping, simply that always (key word there) keeping them is not a rational course of action. There are times when breaking ones word is the lesser of two evils. Also, bear in mind that rude and rational do not mean the same thing. Let us use the example from the books as an example. If Mat feels he is bound by his word to do what is in the letter, and it says "Elayne is a Darkfriend, kill her immediately. Don't question her or anything, just do it." then I think Mat would be quite right to seek to gain further evidence before killing Elayne. However, delaying would be breaking his word.