Discuss The Prophecies

[WhiskyJack]

^^^Actually RJ and Sanderson have both confirmed that TP is essence of DO. It is DO. And that's why it is so good at destruction. So NO, if DO doesn't want you to have it, you cannot have it.

 

By the way, any contact of DO (?) and Saidar/Saidin won't automatically result in taint. Only if DO wills it. And TP is NOT tainted.

 

Semantics, and to an extent a matter of how you look at it. Also - unless you've heard something I haven't - it's not certain that Rand's sudden ability to tap into the True Power was a boon granted by the Dark One, or if it is something caused by his accidental link with Moridin. I would be interested however in seeing the transcript of Jordan's Q&A on the subject. Have they stated that it is essence of Him? That He is the source of the True Power or that He is the True Power? One aspect I enjoy so much about the Wheel of Time is that phrasing is Key, so I'm very curious as to what they actually said.

 

Where does this information come from? Jordan has confirmed that if both Powers had been used in trying to seal the Bore the result would have been that both would be tainted. Why wouldn't the Dark One want whatever comes in contact with him to be tainted? That seems counterproductive to his agenda.

 

True, the True Power isn't tainted. At least, not in the same way Saidin was. It will still drive you mad after prolonged use. Saa and Flaming Caverns for eyes are another side effect. So in essence, it's still a tainted source of power - it does after all, stem from the Dark One.

 

 

ToM chapter 51 kinda proves my point. Rand admits that DO tried to break him, very hard. As for where all this information is coming from, I would suggest doing some homework.

 

Taint was a counterattack, a desperate one. It's not an auto response. What DO will do or won't, it's upto him.

 

Ishamel wielded TP for a long long time. Whatever madness he had, he was very much in control of himself and he knew exactly what he was doing. So whatever TP does to a person, it does not push him to a point where he will go berserk and start killing everyone around him.

 

Nynaseve gives a pretty good idea of what Taint might actually be. TP is not "tainted".

[shadowkiller_001]

I don't understand why so many people think that Perrin can't me named twice in the same prophecy by different names.

The dark one is reffered to as: The Greatest One, Great Lord, Him who Will Destroy, and the Lord of the Evening

Rand is reffered to as both First Among Vermin and the Broken Champion.

 

So i don't see why the idea of perrin being the Broken Wolf and the Fallen Blacksmith is so abhorrent to most people.

 

Personally, I don't think the Broken Wolf is Perrin, but there is certainly no reason it can't be him based on the prose.

 

 

Er...Because of the way prophecy is written? Not only putting Perrin's name twice would make him more important than Rand, it will be an useless effort since he is mentioned just before that line. What would be the point of naming him twice back to back? And yes, even if Perrin was not the fallen blacksmith, he still won't be the broken wolf.

 

Broken champion is mentioned in different context..

 

Haha,

I like how you can use the argument for perrin and say that every other example is not valid because of context.

[didymos]

Saidin/Saidar/True Power could be an important aspect of sealing the Dark One away again, true. Using the True Power as a barrier between Him and the flows of Saidin and Saidar as they're used to reseal the Bore without risking the Taint once again.

 

The Dark One is the True Power. It's HIM, as LTT put it. It makes no sense to use the True Power as a barrier between the Dark One and the One Power , because any barrier you made would be made of Dark One. That doesn't solve the problem at all.

 

Eeeh, I think that's a bit of a stretch. The Forsaken all describe it as being a power granted by the Dark One rather than tapping into him directly.

 

They describe it as him granting access to the True Power, and He is the Source of that Power. He is the new Source that Mierin and Beidomon detected and drilled the Bore for.

 

aCoS:

The True Power, drawn directly from the Great Lord.

 

Being filled with the True Power was almost like kneeling beneath Shayol Ghul, basking in the Great Lord's glory.

 

The Bore into the Great Lord's imprisonment was no closer here than anywhere else in the world, but here she could feel it, bathe in the radiant glory of the Great Lord. The True Power washed around her, so strong here that attempting to channel it would fry her to a cinder.

 

Notice the using True Power is like being at Shayol Ghul and it is all over the place at Shayol Ghul. It's not being channeled. It's just there...because the DO's attention is directed toward that place. You are in his presence there.

 

tGS:

And Rand felt himself filled with an alien power. Not saidin, not saidar, but something else. Something he'd never felt before.

Oh, Light, Lews Therin suddenly screamed. That's impossible! We can't use it! Cast it away! That is death we hold, death and betrayal.

It is HIM.

 

I think that's pretty clear.

 

Otherwise whenever there has been a Channeler with permission to wield the True Power you would have someone wielding Him as a tool, something I doubt He would be much inclined to let transpire. Nobody wields Him as a tool, but you may be honored to wield some of His powers.

 

Well, that's what he does:

Matt: Ok, so, what is then the nature of the Dark One’s relationship with the True Power? In other words...is he the Power or it is separate like the One Power?

Brandon: When people bored into his prison they were searching for a new source of power, they found him. Alright? Now, that leaves a strong implication that the True Power is the essence of the Dark One. The True Power when it is used rips apart the Pattern to rebuild it as it desires. The True Power is very destructive to the Pattern. It leaves scars on the Pattern. Robert Jordan said in an interview or maybe it was actually in the books, when you make a gateway with the True Power you are actually ripping a hole in the Pattern and going somewhere else. When you are using the True Power that is what you are doing, it is contrary to the Pattern. That is not a direct answer to your question but I think there are enough implications in there that certain things can be discussed.

 

AOL Chat #2 27 June 1996

 

DayTripr1: And also is the Dark One the only source of the True Power?

RJ: Yes, the Dark One is the only source of the True Power.

 

Also, much like Saidin and Saidar stem from the One Power - that which drives the Wheel of Time and creation itself - The True Power stems from the Dark One, which when used rends reality.

 

No, there is the True Source, which is divided into halves: saidin and saidar. In the books, Saidin is used to refer to both the male half of the True Source and the Power men channel. Saidar is spoken of in the same way. Really, there is no meaningful distinction made in the books between the One Power and the True Source. RJ explained that the term "One Power" is really just a way of talking about the True Source. It describes a property of the Source:

 

Crossroads of Twilight book tour 23 January 2003, Washington DC Olsson's - John Nowacki reporting

 

Without the True Power to contrast it with, did people in the Age of Legends refer to the One Power and True Source, or simply the Power and the Source? The names would have been the same, he said, since "One Power" was meant to signify that saidin and saidar are two halves of the same thing and not different things entirely.

 

Creation and Destruction. It's all very Yin/Yangy.

 

It's not that simplistic. The OP can be used to destroy. It can even damage the Pattern. The TP can be used to create. For instance, Trollocs and other Shadowspawn were made with the aid of the True Power. It can even be used to Heal, as we saw in the Prologue of tEotW. The True Power is destructive to the Pattern, because it was made the Creator, and the True Power is the essence of the Dark One. It is not just pure Destruction.

 

The reason for the theory of using the True Power (and I'm sure this has been mentioned previously) is because any contact between Saidin or Saidar and the Dark One results in the tainting of that Power.

 

Yes, I know why. The problem is, the True Power is, as I said, made of Dark One. You'd still be touching the DO. If you want to play semantics and just say it "comes from" the DO, I still don't see how you've solved anything. It's still something which owes its existence and its properties to the DO. It's not going to be something you want touching Pattern in any way or the True Source. Especially given this:

 

Week 9 Question: We've read in the Forsaken's points of view that channeling in the Pit of Doom would have some...unpleasant...effects. Is this related to the nature of the opposition of the One Power to the True Power or is it the Dark One consciously acting against the channeler? If so, why should the Dark One care?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: It is a matter of the Dark One consciously acting, though interactions between the One Power and him, the source of the True Power, can be unpredictable.

[didymos]

By the way, any contact of DO (?) and Saidar/Saidin won't automatically result in taint. Only if DO wills it.

 

It's not just simply willing it so:

 

Wotmania/Dragonmount Q&A - 9 December 2002

 

Q: Is there a reason the Dark One could not or would not retaint saidin?

 

RJ: The conditions would have to be exactly right. Those conditions were set up while the seals were being placed on the Bore. The chances that exactly those conditions would occur again are fairly small. And that is saying that it was a volitional act rather than a side-effect of trying to stop the seals from being placed. After all, if the Dark One could taint saidin at will, why could he not taint saidar as well, and why would he not have done so?

[Evoke]

Semantics, and to an extent a matter of how you look at it. Also - unless you've heard something I haven't - it's not certain that Rand's sudden ability to tap into the True Power was a boon granted by the Dark One, or if it is something caused by his accidental link with Moridin. I would be interested however in seeing the transcript of Jordan's Q&A on the subject. Have they stated that it is essence of Him? That He is the source of the True Power or that He is the True Power? One aspect I enjoy so much about the Wheel of Time is that phrasing is Key, so I'm very curious as to what they actually said.

 

Where does this information come from? Jordan has confirmed that if both Powers had been used in trying to seal the Bore the result would have been that both would be tainted. Why wouldn't the Dark One want whatever comes in contact with him to be tainted? That seems counterproductive to his agenda.

 

True, the True Power isn't tainted. At least, not in the same way Saidin was. It will still drive you mad after prolonged use. Saa and Flaming Caverns for eyes are another side effect. So in essence, it's still a tainted source of power - it does after all, stem from the Dark One.

 

 

ToM chapter 51 kinda proves my point. Rand admits that DO tried to break him, very hard. As for where all this information is coming from, I would suggest doing some homework.

 

Taint was a counterattack, a desperate one. It's not an auto response. What DO will do or won't, it's upto him.

 

Ishamel wielded TP for a long long time. Whatever madness he had, he was very much in control of himself and he knew exactly what he was doing. So whatever TP does to a person, it does not push him to a point where he will go berserk and start killing everyone around him.

 

Nynaseve gives a pretty good idea of what Taint might actually be. TP is not "tainted".

 

You're awfully condescending for one who doesn't even present anything to back your claims with. Halfhearted hearsay doesn't hold much merit. Neither does jumping to conclusions and claiming them as facts. I assume you're referring to Rands meeting with the Borderlander Monarchs? Again, there's nothing there that proves or disproves this theory. That chapter hardly even touches the subject beyond the fact that should Rand have gone to them before finding Laughter all would have been lost.

[Byzantine279]

I believe Egwene's dream of the towers might have been prevented:

 

She said that one tower crumbled almost the the ground, then rose up again, becoming the highest of the 6 remaining, and the dream started with 13 (and no new towers rose out of nothing). The issue is as of now 8 forsaken are down:

 

Mesaana will never do anything again, Sammael is dead, Rahvin is dead, Aran'gar is dead, Osan'gar is dead, Be'lal is dead, Asmodean is dead, and Semirhage is dead. This seems to imply that either whoever is referred to has already gotten their glory or the dream was prevented.

[WhiskyJack]

Removed. Rude.

[Evoke]

They describe it as him granting access to the True Power, and He is the Source of that Power. He is the new Source that Mierin and Beidomon detected and drilled the Bore for.

 

Right, which supports my theory that much like Saidin and Saidar stem from the One Power - which is made up of the two and drives the wheel - the True Power stems from the Dark One.

 

 

Notice the using True Power is like being at Shayol Ghul and it is all over the place at Shayol Ghul. It's not being channeled. It's just there...because the DO's attention is directed toward that place. You are in his presence there.

 

Since the Dark One's influence on the Pattern is greatest here - and above all in the Pit - it seems logical that whatever powers he may bestow on his followers would seem akin to the emotions felt here.

 

And Rand felt himself filled with an alien power. Not saidin, not saidar, but something else. Something he'd never felt before.

Oh, Light, Lews Therin suddenly screamed. That's impossible! We can't use it! Cast it away! That is death we hold, death and betrayal.

It is HIM.

I think that's pretty clear.

 

How? It seems natural for Lews Therin to react the way he does. I always thought Lews Therin was saying: "It is HIM" to refer where the source of this power comes from. It would seem unnatural for him to say that it is the True Power, as this is a term only used by the Forsaken (unless I'm mistaken.) Again, the phrasing used doesn't constitute that what Rand is now wielding is the Dark One Himself but instead power granted by Him.

 

Matt: Ok, so, what is then the nature of the Dark One’s relationship with the True Power? In other words...is he the Power or it is separate like the One Power?

Brandon: When people bored into his prison they were searching for a new source of power, they found him. Alright? Now, that leaves a strong implication that the True Power is the essence of the Dark One. The True Power when it is used rips apart the Pattern to rebuild it as it desires. The True Power is very destructive to the Pattern. It leaves scars on the Pattern. Robert Jordan said in an interview or maybe it was actually in the books, when you make a gateway with the True Power you are actually ripping a hole in the Pattern and going somewhere else. When you are using the True Power that is what you are doing, it is contrary to the Pattern. That is not a direct answer to your question but I think there are enough implications in there that certain things can be discussed.

 

AOL Chat #2 27 June 1996

 

DayTripr1: And also is the Dark One the only source of the True Power?

RJ: Yes, the Dark One is the only source of the True Power.

 

What's funny about this is that it really doesn't answer the question - as Brandon himself concedes. It's kind of a Hen and Egg situation. Does the Dark One exist because of the True Power? Or does the True Power exist because of the Dark One? Is He the manifested sentience of the True Power? Or does His existence create the True Power? The nature of how the True Power works is very much in line with the desires of the Dark One - the destruction and reshaping of the Pattern.

 

Now, if we take Sanderson's statement as a secondary source and use Jordan's comment as the primary. It would appear that the True Power stems from the Dark One, and that it is His existence that creates the True Power.

 

Also, much like Saidin and Saidar stem from the One Power - that which drives the Wheel of Time and creation itself - The True Power stems from the Dark One, which when used rends reality.

 

No, there is the True Source, which is divided into halves: saidin and saidar. In the books, Saidin is used to refer to both the male half of the True Source and the Power men channel. Saidar is spoken of in the same way. Really, there is no meaningful distinction made in the books between the One Power and the True Source. RJ explained that the term "One Power" is really just a way of talking about the True Source. It describes a property of the Source:

 

This is more of a semantics question with no overall bearing on the discussion. You're right, it's easy to confuse the One Power with the True Source. The True Source drives the Wheel. The One Power is drawn from the True Source. The One Power is divided into Saidin and Saidar. They're two halves to the whole. Two sides to the same coin if you will.

 

 

Creation and Destruction. It's all very Yin/Yangy.

 

It's not that simplistic. The OP can be used to destroy. It can even damage the Pattern. The TP can be used to create. For instance, Trollocs and other Shadowspawn were made with the aid of the True Power. It can even be used to Heal, as we saw in the Prologue of tEotW. The True Power is destructive to the Pattern, because it was made the Creator, and the True Power is the essence of the Dark One. It is not just pure Destruction.

 

The One Power and the True Power may be used in similar manners. However, the way in which these two powers function are vastly different. The One Power works to create new flows in the Pattern. Even if those flows are used to weave destruction something new is still created. However the True Power is wielded by destroying the pattern and reshaping it. So even if you were to use the True Power as Ishamael did to heal Lews Therin, you're still ripping the Pattern apart.

 

So the essence of the One Power and the True Power are Creation and Destruction.

 

 

Yes, I know why. The problem is, the True Power is, as I said, made of Dark One. You'd still be touching the DO. If you want to play semantics and just say it "comes from" the DO, I still don't see how you've solved anything. It's still something which owes its existence and its properties to the DO. It's not going to be something you want touching Pattern in any way or the True Source. Especially given this:

 

Week 9 Question: We've read in the Forsaken's points of view that channeling in the Pit of Doom would have some...unpleasant...effects. Is this related to the nature of the opposition of the One Power to the True Power or is it the Dark One consciously acting against the channeler? If so, why should the Dark One care?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: It is a matter of the Dark One consciously acting, though interactions between the One Power and him, the source of the True Power, can be unpredictable.

 

Yes, you've said that the True Power is made of the Dark One. However neither Saderson nor Jordan have stated this. Jordan has continuously said that the Dark One is the source of the True Power while Sanderson gave a cryptic non-answer as to the connection between the Dark One and the True Power.

 

So the real question now is whether Rand wielded the True Power with permission from the Dark One or if - as he was being broken by Semirhage - drew it through his link with Moridin.

[GusE]

No, the real question is wether he can do it again at will or not. ("The Guardian blocks the One Power [...] The One Power only." does not answer the question.)

 

I believe Egwene's dream of the towers might have been prevented:

 

She said that one tower crumbled almost the the ground, then rose up again, becoming the highest of the 6 remaining, and the dream started with 13 (and no new towers rose out of nothing). The issue is as of now 8 forsaken are down:

 

Mesaana will never do anything again, Sammael is dead, Rahvin is dead, Aran'gar is dead, Osan'gar is dead, Be'lal is dead, Asmodean is dead, and Semirhage is dead. This seems to imply that either whoever is referred to has already gotten their glory or the dream was prevented.

When she dreams it there are still 6 forsaken at large, the one who has fallen (died) but risen highest is Moridin.

[Byzantine279]

it is highly unlikely Rand is ever going to wield the true power again, that statement was merely him saying that the Guardian would not have stopped him a few weeks before.

 

Yes, but Dreams are about the future it would not make sense for her to be dreaming of past events, so I can only speculate that that dream will not come to pass (or already has off camera) simply because another tower should have fallen first.

[aynatal2000]

I wonder if Graendal and Moridin misunderstood that prophecy of the shadow. It doesnt actually say that Perrin (the Fallen Blacksmith) will die. Instead, it says that the last days of his pride shall come. He has healed the rift between himself and the wolves, no longer blaming them and no longer fearing the wolf inside himself...Then the prophecy goes on to say The "Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known" shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers. Up to this point, Death has never known Perrin. I also do not recall him ever having been referred to as a Broken Wolf.

 

However, Hopper could fit this description very well. He was killed in the waking world (Death has known him), and when he died in the world of dreams, that could theoretically fit with the definition of being "consumed by the Midnight Towers".

 

Just a thought...

+1 Excellent deduction!

 

Hello,

 

Who do you think the "one eyed fool" and "first among vermin" is.

 

if the one eyed fool is Mat (rather obvious) so who shall he morn, Fortuna ?

its obiously fortuana he lost his eye at the end of tom

Hard to see that when bouth of them is rather "safe" to live through the LB.

 

Who is "first among vermin", Becuase it is a prophecy from the dark side it must Rand.

 

If that is the case, do "lift his hand to bring freedom to Him who will Destoy", indicate that this prophecy demand that Rand shall break the remaining seals and that Perrin is at risk if Rand do actuelly break the seals ?

 

Ronneby

Min sees a black hand wielding Callandor... Perrin I think must make Rand a hand...power wrought cuendillar( sorry for spelling)so that Rand can use Callandor on his own in case the women of the circle(Moiraine and Nynaeve) should fall.

[alligator]

Maybe my thinking is way off because everyone else seems to think otherwise -- but when I read it, I took First Among Vermin to mean the Nae'blis (whoever he or she may be at the time). IIRC Dark-siders always abase themselves, yes? Call themselves vermin and the like. The DO isn't a very nice boss, and generally likes to hear about how much better he is than everyone else.

 

And, if we're going on the whole 'one person can't have two different names' thing, then Rand CAN'T be the First Among Vermin. He's mentioned in the third paragraph of the prophecy -- " And the Lord of the Evening shall face the Broken Champion, and shall spill his blood and bring us Darkness so beautiful." I dunno who other than Rand that could be!

[WhiskyJack]

Maybe my thinking is way off because everyone else seems to think otherwise -- but when I read it, I took First Among Vermin to mean the Nae'blis (whoever he or she may be at the time). IIRC Dark-siders always abase themselves, yes? Call themselves vermin and the like. The DO isn't a very nice boss, and generally likes to hear about how much better he is than everyone else.

 

For GL, all humans are vermin, even those who serve him and especially those who don't. Dragon is first among Vermin. Nae'blis is just a title DO invented for his best servant. Prophecies are linked to fate of world itself. Also second part of that prophecy says that this person will break all the seals.

 

And, if we're going on the whole 'one person can't have two different names' thing, then Rand CAN'T be the First Among Vermin. He's mentioned in the third paragraph of the prophecy -- " And the Lord of the Evening shall face the Broken Champion, and shall spill his blood and bring us Darkness so beautiful." I dunno who other than Rand that could be!

 

 

Even GL has two name in that prophecy but not in one paragraph and definitely not back to back. And all these names fit. Dragon was called Lord of the morning..and obviously great lord is lord of evening..So if he is spilling anyone's blood, it must be dragon. If you take away DO, broken champion will have no meaning. Rand is not broken but that's how DO sees him.

[WhiskyJack]

I wonder if Graendal and Moridin misunderstood that prophecy of the shadow. It doesnt actually say that Perrin (the Fallen Blacksmith) will die. Instead, it says that the last days of his pride shall come. He has healed the rift between himself and the wolves, no longer blaming them and no longer fearing the wolf inside himself...Then the prophecy goes on to say The "Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known" shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers. Up to this point, Death has never known Perrin. I also do not recall him ever having been referred to as a Broken Wolf.

 

However, Hopper could fit this description very well. He was killed in the waking world (Death has known him), and when he died in the world of dreams, that could theoretically fit with the definition of being "consumed by the Midnight Towers".

 

Just a thought...

+1 Excellent deduction!

 

Hello,

 

Who do you think the "one eyed fool" and "first among vermin" is.

 

if the one eyed fool is Mat (rather obvious) so who shall he morn, Fortuna ?

its obiously fortuana he lost his eye at the end of tom

Hard to see that when bouth of them is rather "safe" to live through the LB.

 

Who is "first among vermin", Becuase it is a prophecy from the dark side it must Rand.

 

If that is the case, do "lift his hand to bring freedom to Him who will Destoy", indicate that this prophecy demand that Rand shall break the remaining seals and that Perrin is at risk if Rand do actuelly break the seals ?

 

Ronneby

Min sees a black hand wielding Callandor... Perrin I think must make Rand a hand...power wrought cuendillar( sorry for spelling)so that Rand can use Callandor on his own in case the women of the circle(Moiraine and Nynaeve) should fall.

 

 

Rand can actually manage Callandor with one hand. I am not sure exactly what Min meant but black is bad.Besides, wooden hand will work as good cuendillar (Neald is no good with ceundillar). And even if Rand joins a circle of two women, knowing how much he knows about OP and how much skilled he is, he most probably will lead the circle unless Moriraine now knows a better way to seal DO and is skilled enough to weave such a weave.

[WhiskyJack]

it is highly unlikely Rand is ever going to wield the true power again, that statement was merely him saying that the Guardian would not have stopped him a few weeks before.

 

Actually he could have in that state. In All 12 books, DO has tried very hard to push Rand over the edge so that he can join DO's side. TP was just one of those tools. I am pretty sure DO would have allowed Rand to access TP again and again.

[Byzantine279]

Whisky, you seem to have misunderstood what I said. I was agreeing with you, I believe that Rand is not going to wield the TP again. But before VoG the DO would have given it to him as often as he wanted to try to turn him.

[WhiskyJack]

Whisky, you seem to have misunderstood what I said. I was agreeing with you, I believe that Rand is not going to wield the TP again. But before VoG the DO would have given it to him as often as he wanted to try to turn him.

 

 

Agreed..That's why I enjoyed chapter 51 in ToM. He admitted that if he were LTT, DO would have claimed him by now;)

[nleseul]

No, really: he turned into a mare, hooked up with a stallion, and gave birth to Sleipnir.

 

Bela! :-D

 

My money is on Slayer/Luc being the broken wolf. The wolves all said he hunts like one. He knows Moridin (death).

 

You've got to keep "the Broken Wolf" in context.

 

He "shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers." His "destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself."

 

Slayer is, first of all, unknown to almost everybody. Perrin is really the only one who has encountered him. Nynaeve saw him during her Accepted test but has no idea who he is. So, his destruction would not cause all of mankind "fear and sorrow" nor "shake their very will itself."

 

It's not Slayer.

 

I would point out that the dark prophecies are presumably written from the perspective of the Shadow. So it's entirely possible that you can read this as "...to the hearts of men [who serve the Shadow]...."

 

It's not totally inconceivable that Slayer is fairly well-known and respected among Darkfriends, and that hearing of his death would be demoralizing to them. The Trollocs in TSR, at least, certainly seemed to rally around "ISAM!" as a battlecry.

[FarShainMael]

I believe Egwene's dream of the towers might have been prevented:

 

She said that one tower crumbled almost the the ground, then rose up again, becoming the highest of the 6 remaining, and the dream started with 13 (and no new towers rose out of nothing). The issue is as of now 8 forsaken are down:

 

Mesaana will never do anything again, Sammael is dead, Rahvin is dead, Aran'gar is dead, Osan'gar is dead, Be'lal is dead, Asmodean is dead, and Semirhage is dead. This seems to imply that either whoever is referred to has already gotten their glory or the dream was prevented.

 

Since 6+8=14, not 13, it seems that either you're right or that one of those eight fallen FS is going to rise again..

[Evoke]

I believe Egwene's dream of the towers might have been prevented:

 

She said that one tower crumbled almost the the ground, then rose up again, becoming the highest of the 6 remaining, and the dream started with 13 (and no new towers rose out of nothing). The issue is as of now 8 forsaken are down:

 

Mesaana will never do anything again, Sammael is dead, Rahvin is dead, Aran'gar is dead, Osan'gar is dead, Be'lal is dead, Asmodean is dead, and Semirhage is dead. This seems to imply that either whoever is referred to has already gotten their glory or the dream was prevented.

 

Since 6+8=14, not 13, it seems that either you're right or that one of those eight fallen FS is going to rise again..

 

The tower that crumbles yet rises to greater heights than the rest is supposedly Ishamael/Moridin. However this dream doesn't account for Aginor's or Balthamel's transmigration. Wouldn't those towers have fallen, only to rise and then fall again? Or would this be over the top for such a dream as they've both fallen twice? This still excludes Lanfear, as she did die yet is still around as Cyndane.

[GB]

hey everyone

 

i dont know if this viewing of Min has been discussed

 

"I see you, a brilliant white sword held in your hand, wielded against one of black, held by a faceless darkness."

 

ToM Return to Bandar Eban

 

so Callandor is being held by rand, whats the black one? could morridin have one similar blade but for the shadow? or would it be a more obscure metaphor ?

 

and the next part of the viewing "trees, growing green again, bearing fruit.....a sign of victory and hope"

 

that i take it is a post LB viewing provided they win since the dragon's fang is a symbol of hope

 

thoughts?

[Byzantine279]

I have that same issue, Evoke. Not only that, but when moridin came back there where far more than 6 forsaken left.

 

 

I suspect that the line that (paraphrasing): the day shall dawn twice. Means that once there will be a normal dawn, and then Rand is going to die. And then he is going to rise again, and as he does so another dawn shall break over the horizon and "burn away the shadows".

[deathgate]

Min sees a black hand wielding Callandor... Perrin I think must make Rand a hand...power wrought cuendillar( sorry for spelling)so that Rand can use Callandor on his own in case the women of the circle(Moiraine and Nynaeve) should fall.

 

Doesn't Elaine or Aviendha have a terangreal that makes the wielder invisible to the shadow that looks like a black hand? Or am I remembering that wrong and it's a black something else.

[GB]

Min sees a black hand wielding Callandor... Perrin I think must make Rand a hand...power wrought cuendillar( sorry for spelling)so that Rand can use Callandor on his own in case the women of the circle(Moiraine and Nynaeve) should fall.

 

Doesn't Elaine or Aviendha have a terangreal that makes the wielder invisible to the shadow that looks like a black hand? Or am I remembering that wrong and it's a black something else.

 

i think thats a black knife

[didymos]

Min sees a black hand wielding Callandor... Perrin I think must make Rand a hand...power wrought cuendillar( sorry for spelling)so that Rand can use Callandor on his own in case the women of the circle(Moiraine and Nynaeve) should fall.

 

Doesn't Elaine or Aviendha have a terangreal that makes the wielder invisible to the shadow that looks like a black hand? Or am I remembering that wrong and it's a black something else.

 

i think thats a black knife

 

Nah. It looks like a more or less normal dagger, and has a blade that looks like iron and it's got a dull edge and point.