Discuss The Prophecies

[FarShainMael]

There's been questions on the 'Ask..' thread talking about Elaida, and her somewhat abrupt departure from the WT courtesy of the Seanchan.. And I wondered if this was the fulfilment of Egwene's dream from CoT20:

 

'Egwene walks a ledge on a cliff. The ledge collapses leaving her hanging by her fingertips. A Seanchan woman climbs down the cliff and offers to help.'

 

She also dreams of the Seanchan attack:

 

'Atop a mountain sits a white plinth with a glass oil lantern on top. Two ravens fly by and set the lamp tottering.'

 

Did that dream of the collapsing ledge and the rescuing Seanchan woman (with the sword and the blurred face) also refer to the attack, specifically to the removal of Elaida and the danger she was to Egwene?

[Dastion]

The woman on the ledge is widely believed to be Egeanin/Leilwin, especially considering she is now on her way to the White Tower with Joline. On top of this, her description has occasionally included a sword, even though she's never actively fought with one "on screen", this seems a clear intent to associate a sword with her for some reason.

 

As the the individuals, I agree with thought that:

One Eyed Fool = Mat

Fallen Blacksmith = Perrin

First Among Vermin = Rand

 

For those arguing the points of "fallen" and "vermin" note that all are very negative terms. Mat isn't a Fool anymore than Aes Sedai are "Vermin" though if you disliked either much you much use those terms to describe them. It just seems that the nature of dark prophecy is to use insulting terms to describe your enemy, it's a more evil version of the vagueness in normal prophecy. I could see FAV being Moridin too, but it makes more sense to mention all three.

 

Now, the Broken Wolf is the mystery. Lan and Slayer seem most likely in this. Lan has courted death, but the "broken wolf" doesn't really fit. However, I've wondered for awhile if Lord Luc wasn't a WolfBrother and had his soul eaten by a Dark Hound and then infused with Isam. That would definitely make him a "Broken Wolf". How his death would exactly cause "Fear and Sorrow" doesn't fit exactly though.

[Lisa Campbell]

The woman on the ledge is widely believed to be Egeanin/Leilwin, especially considering she is now on her way to the White Tower with Joline. On top of this, her description has occasionally included a sword, even though she's never actively fought with one "on screen", this seems a clear intent to associate a sword with her for some reason.

 

As the the individuals, I agree with thought that:

One Eyed Fool = Mat

Fallen Blacksmith = Perrin

First Among Vermin = Rand

 

I've always thought that First Among Vermin refers to Fain. He's definately on the "kill list" of the Forsaken.

 

I agree that the Seanchan woman is Egeanin/Leilwin. There is believable argument that the blurred/changing face and solid sword mean that it represents the Seanchan army but I think it just means that Egwene doesn't recognise the woman, she just knows the woman is Seanchan. Egeanin would be described as "clambering", but if it were Tuon with her army behind her, her descent down the Tower would be much more graceful.

[FarShainMael]

Yes, I'd read that about Egeanin/Leilwin. I'm offering another possibility.

[JKN-SW]

I really think it is a bit too far off to be the one. Egwene wasn't actually saved by the Seanchan even though they made her escape possible.There was no sword-wielding seanchan woman involved. I don't see a ledge "collapsing" for here. She wasn't really hanging by her fingertips, was she? Egwene was on her way "winning" and the seanchan attack offered an opportunity, but not a deciding factor. A´ll in all ther is too many details needed to be stretched for that to be a fulfilmnt of the dream.

[FarShainMael]

That's a very literal reading of the dream - which is not to say it's not a valid reading, of course, just that dreams don't have to be literal. And Egwene may have felt herself to be in a precarious position - she was a prisoner, drugged to the eyeballs with forkroot to stop her channelling any more than a trickle. She's just learned from Verin about the Black Ajah details, and there she is, helpless against them.

 

When Siuan wakes from TAR where she had been talking to Egwene, she wonders if Elaida had at last decided to execute Egwene. After Egwene is 'rescued', and before they learn that Elaida was taken, Egwene also believes she will be executed if she returns to the Tower. But, of course, Elaida isn't there any more; the Seanchan have removed her, and removed the threat to Egwene.

[Majsju]

The woman on the ledge is widely believed to be Egeanin/Leilwin, especially considering she is now on her way to the White Tower with Joline. On top of this, her description has occasionally included a sword, even though she's never actively fought with one "on screen", this seems a clear intent to associate a sword with her for some reason.

 

As the the individuals, I agree with thought that:

One Eyed Fool = Mat

Fallen Blacksmith = Perrin

First Among Vermin = Rand

 

I've always thought that First Among Vermin refers to Fain. He's definately on the "kill list" of the Forsaken.

 

I agree that the Seanchan woman is Egeanin/Leilwin. There is believable argument that the blurred/changing face and solid sword mean that it represents the Seanchan army but I think it just means that Egwene doesn't recognise the woman, she just knows the woman is Seanchan. Egeanin would be described as "clambering", but if it were Tuon with her army behind her, her descent down the Tower would be much more graceful.

 

RJs comments about Fain, how he is a wildcard who has sidestepped the pattern does not quite fit with him being mentioned in a Prophecy, as prophecies rely completely on the pattern being nicely in order.

[Lisa Campbell]

The woman on the ledge is widely believed to be Egeanin/Leilwin, especially considering she is now on her way to the White Tower with Joline. On top of this, her description has occasionally included a sword, even though she's never actively fought with one "on screen", this seems a clear intent to associate a sword with her for some reason.

 

As the the individuals, I agree with thought that:

One Eyed Fool = Mat

Fallen Blacksmith = Perrin

First Among Vermin = Rand

 

I've always thought that First Among Vermin refers to Fain. He's definately on the "kill list" of the Forsaken.

 

I agree that the Seanchan woman is Egeanin/Leilwin. There is believable argument that the blurred/changing face and solid sword mean that it represents the Seanchan army but I think it just means that Egwene doesn't recognise the woman, she just knows the woman is Seanchan. Egeanin would be described as "clambering", but if it were Tuon with her army behind her, her descent down the Tower would be much more graceful.

 

RJs comments about Fain, how he is a wildcard who has sidestepped the pattern does not quite fit with him being mentioned in a Prophecy, as prophecies rely completely on the pattern being nicely in order.

 

I don't know about that. I'm not disputing what RJ said of Fain, just that the Dark One wants to unravel the Pattern completely so I don't think that Dark Prophecy relies on the Pattern being in order. And Fain has only stepped aside from the Pattern relatively recently (as in book 10 onwards). I think it is foreshadowing about the next Dark One, an amalgamation of all the disparate evils in the world, including the current Dark One and Fain's tie to Shadar Logoth.

[JKN-SW]

That's a very literal reading of the dream - which is not to say it's not a valid reading, of course, just that dreams don't have to be literal. And Egwene may have felt herself to be in a precarious position - she was a prisoner, drugged to the eyeballs with forkroot to stop her channelling any more than a trickle. She's just learned from Verin about the Black Ajah details, and there she is, helpless against them.

 

When Siuan wakes from TAR where she had been talking to Egwene, she wonders if Elaida had at last decided to execute Egwene. After Egwene is 'rescued', and before they learn that Elaida was taken, Egwene also believes she will be executed if she returns to the Tower. But, of course, Elaida isn't there any more; the Seanchan have removed her, and removed the threat to Egwene.

Yes, my comments was a bit literal, but what I really was trying to say was that most dreams (that I recall at least) have had a very distinct symbolic connection to the events it has prophecied. For example the ravens flying into the flame. The one with Mat wielding lightning or fire or whatever it was. For me, the symbolic connection between the dream with the seanchan woman and the tower attack is much weaker than anything else I can recall. That's why I think it has yet to be fulfilled.

 

Not sayin it isn't possible, but to me it feels very far fetched.

[Southpaw89]

Broken Wolf most likely refers to Rand

[Guest Damia]

The reference to the Broken Wolf is definitely confusing... and while I agree that the Midnight Towers likely refer to the Forsaken, I'm wondering if maybe they (Midnight Towers) refers to the two factions in the Black Tower. Could then tie in with Elaida's Foretelling "...The Black Tower will rent in blood and fire..." which will result in the Broken Wolf falling (collateral damage from the two sides of the Black Tower fighting it out).

[aunt_pol]

I don't know, I'm still inclined to think the Broken Wolf is Ituralde.

The Borderlanders seem to be a lot closer to their neighbours than southern lands - I guess it's an empathy thing, each people understands and shares a common enemy with the others. Surely if Rand hadn't rocked up and saved the day, the loss of Maradon after Ituralde's heroic attempt to save it would have done huge emotional and psychic damage all along the Blightborder? It also would have left a nice open road south for the Trollocs to do all kinds of harm, thus breaking the wills of men throughout Arad Doman, down into Andor...

Ituralde is already known as the little wolf and he pretty much was broken by the fight. I think he fills the role nicely, and Yay! that the Dark Prophecy was thwarted by Zen Rand and his lightnings etc.

 

As to the Halls of Mourning, just a thought: we actually don't know how long Mat spent in the ToG and how long he spends getting there and back again, including Travel by Asha'man, but unless Talmanes saves the day fairly spectacularly, the royal palace in Caemlyn could easily become the halls of mourning.

[MauricXe]

I'm gonna go with Lan.

 

 

I've been listening to the audiobook of Fires of Heaven. In Chapter 53, Rand refers to Lan as a "half-tamed wolf."

 

I'm throwing my lot in with the obscure wolf reference.

[Frost Wynters]

I've always thought the propechies were:

One Eyed Fool = Mat

Fallen Blacksmith = Perrin

First Among Vermin = Rand

 

i've been wondering why people think the these prophecies refer to any other characters other than Rand, Perrin, or Mat. Are there any other propechies that have related to characters other than the main three in the series?

[MauricXe]

I've always thought the propechies were:

One Eyed Fool = Mat

Fallen Blacksmith = Perrin

First Among Vermin = Rand

 

i've been wondering why people think the these prophecies refer to any other characters other than Rand, Perrin, or Mat. Are there any other propechies that have related to characters other than the main three in the series?

 

 

Yea, I think those three are the general consensus.

 

To answer your questions, yes. There is a prophecy about Lanfear returning back in TGH iirc, and another about Slayer to name a couple.

[Eht Slat Meit]

I originally guessed the 'Broken Wolf' to be the Borderlands, but after some re-reading and realizing that extent of damage, I'd go a step further and say that the 'Broken Wolf' is the city of Maradon, which is the last of the Borderlands, the seat of the Broken Crown and near ruin after the events of ToM.

 

I could see the fall of Maradon and the surviving Borderland armies as an opening chapter of AMoL.

[Canarmane]

I've been thinking about the Prophecy of the Shadow in ToM for quite some time now, and I still haven't found all the answers, but there are some parts that I think I've unraveled thus far.

 

Naturally, the parts I've been focusing on most are the titles that have been granted to characters in the book.

 

Some are painfully obvious: the Greatest One (line 1) is clearly the Dark One. There is no denial in this that I can see. The prophecy clearly states, "...that the prison of the Greatest One shall grow weak" (line 1). All further references to He, Him, His, etc. refer back to the Dark One as well.

 

The next name is also easy to decipher: the One-Eyed Fool is Mat. Again, the prophecy clearly states, "when the One-Eyed Fool travels the halls of mourning" (line 7). The Halls of Mourning, of course, would refer to the Tower of Ghenjei.

 

The next two names, however, are rather ambiguous to me: first we have the "First Among Vermin", and then "Him who will Destroy".

 

Now, this may just be my personal interpretation, but as this prophecy comes from the shadow, I believe that all of these names, excluding the Greatest One, all refer to the main characters of the series (Rand, Perrin, Mat, etc). For now, however, I'll ignore these two names for the sake of simplicity.

 

The next name mentioned is the "Fallen Blacksmith". This is, of course, Perrin.

 

Now, the previous 4 names all appear within one compound sentence. It states, that when [Mat] travels the [Tower of Ghenjei], and the First among Vermin lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who will Destroy, the last days of [Perrin's] pride shall come. Ignoring the two missing candidates, this makes simple enough sense: Perrin arguably lets go of his pride and agrees to lead the people of the Two Rivers. Whether or not this is what the Shadow was referring to is naturally unknown.

 

Moving on, we reach another ambiguous figure: the Broken Wolf.

 

Before we move on, I'd just like to state this now: I am currently working under the assumption that each listed title is an individual person, and there is no overlap.

 

The prophecy tells us that the Broken Wolf knows Death very well, and that they shall fall to the Midnight Towers. In addition, his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to men, and shall shake their will itself.

 

Now, I know one of the most common proposed characters for the role of the Broken Wolf is Ituralde, but I must respectfully disagree. Perhaps I'm reading too metaphorically into the "wolf", but I feel the strongest candidate is Lan. "Lone Wolf" characters are generally cold and introverted, which fits Lan fairly well. He would obviously know Death well, having been born as his kingdom was destroyed. And he is currently in the most dangerous position out of most of the main characters in that by the end of ToM we see him leading the charge at Tarwin's Gap.

 

In addition, interpreting the phrase "shall be consumed by the Midnight Towers" is fairly difficult. Based off the assumption that the Broken Wolf is Lan, I find the strongest interpretation to be that Lan may be forcibly turned to the Dark via the 13-13 method. However, I note that the phrase "his destruction" does not necessarily imply the destruction he causes, but could simply be an alternative to "his death".

 

Finally, we end with another fairly easy title. The "Broken Champion" refers to Rand: "And the Lord of the Evening shall face the Broken Champion, and shall spill his blood". Rand is always prophesied as having to spill his blood at Shayol Ghul.

 

Returning quickly to the 1-A-V and Him who will Destroy, I can't help but feel the Logain must be involved in some way. Even by the end of ToM, very little has been done by Rand in regards to the crisis at the Black Tower, and we all know that some great glory awaits Logain.

 

Finally, the last portion in the prophecy has always struck me as strange. It reads:

"And the Lord of the Evening shall face the Broken Champion [Not destroy?], and shall spill his blood [Again, not kill?] and bring us the Darkness so beautiful. Let the screams begin, O followers of the Shadow. Beg for your destruction!" Emphasis mine, of course.

 

Something about how the passage is phrased just seems strange to me. Maybe I'm reading too deeply, but the sadism near the end seems very out of place. I once entertained the thought that maybe this passage was tampered with in some way by the forces of Light, but that seems improbable at best.

[nool]

Funny, ythe "names" you think are the most ambiguous, I feel are very clear:

 

the First among Vermin lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who will Destroy

 

I see Rand as the First among Vermins. He's the leader of the peoples of the world, or vermin using a derogatory term from the DO.

Rand will lift his hand (observe, hand not hands) to break the seals and thus bring freedom to the DO, i.e. Him who will Destroy.

[FarShainMael]

Wasn't 'First among Servants' one of LTT's titles?

 

'First among vermin' seems a derived insult!

[Bob T Dwarf]

Wasn't 'First among Servants' one of LTT's titles?

 

'First among vermin' seems a derived insult!

 

It's not just First among vermin, its ..."and the First among Vermin lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who will Destroy,"

 

Let's try this on for a moment: the First Among Vermin is Jain Farstrider who lifts his hand to bring freedom to Mat, who is Him who will Destroy.

 

I note that lots of people believe Lan will die and have him as the Broken Wolf. Remember the Arthurian connection. Lan is obviously Lancelot and Lancelot survived Arthur. Lancelot was also the only swordsman capable of defeating Arthur, just as Lan is probably the only swordsman capable of defeating Rand.

 

I think this Dark Prophesy is one that is already unravelling due to the actions of the Light since it was first written. IF ( big, big IF ) Ituralde is the Broken Wolf, then Rand saving him and Maradon has negated the line about "his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to men, and shall shake their will itself."

 

Speculation, but apparently that's all we have to look forward to for the next year.

[Cybertrolloc]

Yah, I mentioned that in the yucky poll thread.

 

Maradon was 2 days before Merrilor, Mat goes into Finn at 1 day before (another Verin victory lol). Perrin's pride deal was the day of trial -> tower battle -> travel -> make hammer -> go fight shadowspawn -> yeesh...or were those 2 or more days? Guess there's just too much flexibility in when things can happen in ToM and it's all nailed to those days right before FoM...and way too many ways to apply the monicker Broken Wolf to too many people :)

 

It also depends on when Lan's battle happens and if Rand's promise of aid falls through if that's a possibility.

[Eht Slat Meit]

I'm inclined to think the that the First Among Vermin and the Broken Champion are different people and the same person at the same time... the difference between Fisher King Rand and Zen Rand. Both pieces of prophecy represent two distinctly different time frames, and there has been a heckuvalot of foreshadowing to suggest that while it may work as believed, the Breaking of the Seals will not go well for Rand. That point may be a transition for him, referring back to the three women beside him on a funeral bier - these being Alivia and whichever two women aid him with Callandor. Uniting whatever the "three" represent, could very well destroy him as he is, perhaps burning him out completely. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but would make him a "Broken" Champion.

 

Blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul comes after.

[aunt_pol]

Having just finished my latest reread, I've done a complete about face on this.

We've two separate things here - who the Dark prophecy actually refers to, and who those with access to it believe it refers to.

 

In Moridin and Grendal's little chat, it's clear that they both are very confident the Wolf is Perrin. However, the structure and style of the writing of the piece strongly indicates that the Fallen Blacksmith and the Broken Wolf are two different people. I can't find a single other significant hammer beater in the series so I'm hugely confused.

 

I'm inclined to agree with Cybertrolloc on the timing issue - there seems to be an awful lot happening in a preposterously short time frame.