The thing I think Sanderson has taken the most liberty with

[CUBAREY]

Do you really think, after experiencing all of this, that Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time is going to involve reasonable people?

 

Ever?

 

Sanderson's demonstrating a pretty good knack for showing the characters being forced kicking and screaming into cooperation so that an immediate, existential crisis can be addressed. But I'm pretty damn sure that this state of events ain't going to last forever.

 

 

I think that RJ captured the reality of our leaders "adventure" in that tropical paradise very well in TWOT. Rather well meaning and intelligent people dealing with incomplete and complicated information viewing it through the lense of their biases and presuming that theirs had to be a pivotal role.

 

As for your second point, very few of the characters are acting solely to win the Last Battle (Rand excepted) most are grudingly aware that they must cooperate to win the Last Battle they spend most of their time planning (more accurately scheming) to improve their position after the Last Battle. Which alas is quite remenicent of our world.

 

p.s.Although I disgree with your characteriztion that Vietnam's regime was the most corrupt of its time. It just has the advantage of being the most publicized.

[messiestobjects]

If you watch the Hour with BS at Jordancon '10, he says sometime in the future the three books will be re-written by Team Jordan to fully have RJ's voice. He said he's just the person getting it to us in a timely fashion until that happens. I thought that was interesting and haven't heard it talked about before.

 

That's awesome! I haven't heard that anywhere else, and that seems like huge news to me. I'd like to see that in print somewhere.

 

Say what? That'd be pretty cool, actually. I'm surprised it hasn't been mentioned yet.

 

About 1:20 in.

 

You sure about that? It sounded like he was making a big allegory to reading them in the afterlife to me. Kinda confusing.

 

 

Ok yeah, that was definitely just a religious fanboy's geek out. He was saying that, in the final episode of season 6, all of the WoT fans are going to hang out in a all-denominational church together and read the books that RJ is busy writing in heaven right now.

 

Which is all well and good, but I'm an atheist so I just have to live with the reality. Merde.

[MierinWru]

Which is all well and good, but I'm an atheist so I just have to live with the reality. Merde.

 

Least we can enjoy reality, though instead of worrying about sins and stuff. 

[smileyman]

For instance, Talmanes. If you have half a brain, you can see he was actually a character with a sense of humor, which he kept to himself. There were a couple of things he said in RJs day that had Mat wondering about him. That's just the way he was. BS had to spell it out for everybody to the point where he starts acting like a flirty girl with Mat, thus caricaturing the nature of his character.

I actually think that RJ would not have made them more loquacious, had he never gotten sick. That whole "I'm gonna stuff everything into one book, no matter if it has to be published on bible thin paper!" thing was the act of a man wanting to finish his work in the time allotted. I believe had he not been sick, he'd have kept plugging away, adding books wherever he saw fit to do so. I guarantee you this would have been at least a 16-18 book series. To which, of course, most people groan to think about. As for me, as excited as I am to find out how it all ends, once I put down AMoL in March 2012, I'm going to be deeply, profoundly sad that there will be no more books.

I dig what you're saying. I think some people are trying very hard to make it seem as if reading Sanderson isn't so different from reading Jordan (and that isn't an insult, simply a comment on how adaptable people are). The styles and methods of the two are ridiculously different, and it shows...and to say I wasn't a little disappointed while reading ToM would be to lie. Characters unburden themselves with regularity, comedy/anger/tension is acted out with much less subtlety, deus ex machina is evident in some cases. I lost count of how many characters professed love for another. It's a jarring, very blunt contrast with Jordan's writing.

 

This isn't unexpected, and I enjoyed ToM as I did TGS. Sanderson does an admirable job, he's a talented writer. I just don't think we (by which I mean the folks who could have read 5 more books of slow-paced, tight-lipped WoT) need to hold back on expressing this stuff...it does no disservice to Sanderson.

 

Oh there are definite differences, especially if you've read any of Sanderson's other works. For me Sanderson beats Jordan when it comes to actually plotting and story arc development--his books never lose their focus the way Jordan's have at times. The difference is the way they outline. Sanderson has said he outlines everything, while Jordan lets things happen naturally--he calls it being an "Architect" vs "Gardener" or words to that effect.

 

Jordan has the ability to wring tears out of you, something that Sanderson doesn't. Sanderson's prose is competent and he's a good story teller, but he doesn't have that deft touch that Jordan has with wringing you dry. If I were to wager a guess I'd say that Bulen meeting up with Lan in the start of TOM was written by Sanderson, because i think that Jordan would've packed much more emotional punch into that scene. Just a guess though.

 

I do think Sanderson has done far better than anyone thought he could and I can't imagine any other author being able to do what he's done. I think it helps that he started out reading the books along with all of us back when it all started, so he's been following along forever too.

[messiestobjects]

Which is all well and good, but I'm an atheist so I just have to live with the reality. Merde.

 

Least we can enjoy reality, though instead of worrying about sins and stuff. 

 

I haven't worried about sinning in the Biblical sense for a long long time. It actually sort of makes me angry when I find out that someone is religious; Brandon has lost even more cool points, there. I mean, you know, to each their own and all, but if he tries turning WoT into some big Mormon allegory I'm going to be really pissed, In the Biblical sense. There were actually a couple of lines in ToM that made me wonder if BS was a god person. I don't know if RJ was or not.

[messiestobjects]

For instance, Talmanes. If you have half a brain, you can see he was actually a character with a sense of humor, which he kept to himself. There were a couple of things he said in RJs day that had Mat wondering about him. That's just the way he was. BS had to spell it out for everybody to the point where he starts acting like a flirty girl with Mat, thus caricaturing the nature of his character.

I actually think that RJ would not have made them more loquacious, had he never gotten sick. That whole "I'm gonna stuff everything into one book, no matter if it has to be published on bible thin paper!" thing was the act of a man wanting to finish his work in the time allotted. I believe had he not been sick, he'd have kept plugging away, adding books wherever he saw fit to do so. I guarantee you this would have been at least a 16-18 book series. To which, of course, most people groan to think about. As for me, as excited as I am to find out how it all ends, once I put down AMoL in March 2012, I'm going to be deeply, profoundly sad that there will be no more books.

I dig what you're saying. I think some people are trying very hard to make it seem as if reading Sanderson isn't so different from reading Jordan (and that isn't an insult, simply a comment on how adaptable people are). The styles and methods of the two are ridiculously different, and it shows...and to say I wasn't a little disappointed while reading ToM would be to lie. Characters unburden themselves with regularity, comedy/anger/tension is acted out with much less subtlety, deus ex machina is evident in some cases. I lost count of how many characters professed love for another. It's a jarring, very blunt contrast with Jordan's writing.

 

This isn't unexpected, and I enjoyed ToM as I did TGS. Sanderson does an admirable job, he's a talented writer. I just don't think we (by which I mean the folks who could have read 5 more books of slow-paced, tight-lipped WoT) need to hold back on expressing this stuff...it does no disservice to Sanderson.

 

Oh there are definite differences, especially if you've read any of Sanderson's other works. For me Sanderson beats Jordan when it comes to actually plotting and story arc development--his books never lose their focus the way Jordan's have at times. The difference is the way they outline. Sanderson has said he outlines everything, while Jordan lets things happen naturally--he calls it being an "Architect" vs "Gardener" or words to that effect.

 

Jordan has the ability to wring tears out of you, something that Sanderson doesn't. Sanderson's prose is competent and he's a good story teller, but he doesn't have that deft touch that Jordan has with wringing you dry. If I were to wager a guess I'd say that Bulen meeting up with Lan in the start of TOM was written by Sanderson, because i think that Jordan would've packed much more emotional punch into that scene. Just a guess though.

 

I do think Sanderson has done far better than anyone thought he could and I can't imagine any other author being able to do what he's done. I think it helps that he started out reading the books along with all of us back when it all started, so he's been following along forever too.

 

 

Yes, you've put your finger on something I've been trying to express actually. I come away from a lot of those touchy-feely scenes feeling a bit cheated, because I don't feel like BS earned the touchy-feeliness. He just describes it, bang boom next scene. RJ definitely had a way of painting negative spaces.

[MierinWru]

Brandon has lost even more cool points, there. I mean, you know, to each their own and all, but if he tries turning WoT into some big Mormon allegory I'm going to be really pissed, In the Biblical sense. There were actually a couple of lines in ToM that made me wonder if BS was a god person. I don't know if RJ was or not.

 

I'm with you there. I like Sanderson's writing but it's a bit too... conservative for my liking at times.

 

 

I laughed when I read about Gawyn needing a separate bed instead of just sharing Egwene's.   And I sure hope that the new, transformed, wise Rand won't turn out to be Jesus 2.0. So far I'm enjoying it but the thought does bother me a bit.

 

 

[smileyman]

Brandon has lost even more cool points, there. I mean, you know, to each their own and all, but if he tries turning WoT into some big Mormon allegory I'm going to be really pissed, In the Biblical sense. There were actually a couple of lines in ToM that made me wonder if BS was a god person. I don't know if RJ was or not.

 

I'm with you there. I like Sanderson's writing but it's a bit too... conservative for my liking at times.

 

 

I laughed when I read about Gawyn needing a separate bed instead of just sharing Egwene's.   And I sure hope that the new, transformed, wise Rand won't turn out to be Jesus 2.0. So far I'm enjoying it but the thought does bother me a bit.

 

What? Seriously? The Wheel of Time has always been PG-13 at worst when it comes to sex and almost always PG. Just think about the so-called sex scene between Rand and Avi in Seanchan for a rather lust-free bit of sex. And Rand is obviously a Messiah arcehtype and has been from the very beginning of the series. The whole spear thrust in the side should be enough of a coincidence. You might say that he's an Arthur figure, but Arthur is merely a Messiah archetype.

[Jnai]

Which is all well and good, but I'm an atheist so I just have to live with the reality. Merde.

 

Least we can enjoy reality, though instead of worrying about sins and stuff. 

 

I haven't worried about sinning in the Biblical sense for a long long time. It actually sort of makes me angry when I find out that someone is religious; Brandon has lost even more cool points, there. I mean, you know, to each their own and all, but if he tries turning WoT into some big Mormon allegory I'm going to be really pissed, In the Biblical sense. There were actually a couple of lines in ToM that made me wonder if BS was a god person. I don't know if RJ was or not.

 

So, Sanderson has written two books (Elantris and Warbreaker) that both dealt heavily with themes of religion, godhood, and what it means to be divine. The Mistborn series (especially the last two books and the beautiful ending to the series) dealt heavily with these things as well.

 

But, none of these were "big Mormon allegory".

 

I would say that Sanderson is a god person, in the sense that he struggles with questions of faith and religion. His novels often question what it means to be worship, what it means to read a holy text, or what it means to practice a religious ritual. He deals with the power of religion to act as both a manipulator and savior of men.

 

But he's pretty clearly not a blind-faith Jesus-freak, if that's what you mean by a "god person".

[Guest sulindm]

For a start, I want to say this: THANK YOU BRANDON SANDERSON for bring us TGS/TOM. I think you did a very admirable job, especially getting them out one a year as promised. Thank you. Few authors seem to be able to keep deadline.

 

This is my first post. Well, I've been lurking around DM for years but could never be bothered to create a forum account. I belong to the first type of fans, the type that doesn't care if RJ or anyone else keeps WOT going for another 50 years (as long as he output a book 1-2 yrs).

 

My biggest grief is with the characters' personalities! The inconsistency is making me pull out all my hairs. All of sudden, I'm not reading about people I gotten to know, and grew up with for the past 14 years. All of them changed "overnight". They speak different, they think different and they act different. Now, all of them WANT you to know what they are thinking and they forced all those craps into your face.

 

messiestobjects is right. ALL of them are soooooooo emo now. I would never have believed Lan will whine few days ago. And what happened to those "looks" that speaks "volume" that all the women and especially Aes Sedia are good at? Now they just throw the volume to your face in simple sentences.

 

One of the reasons that makes me enjoy re-reading WOT is, every time you read the books, you learned something new. There's depth in thoughts, plots and politics, every minor details may be hint to something bigger. It makes for very boring reading to have all the conclusion stuff into your face.

 

Look at the terms used in TGS and TOM. All the "general" in TGS, I have always thought they are the great "captains". All those "boys" from Perrin in TOM. Trousers instead of breeches! Maybe I should be glad Brandon never use "pants". Blood and bloody ashes!

 

In a way, I think Brandon is way too focused. He sees only the characters he is currently writing about. For example, when Perrin and Faile are talking, as a reader, you can only see Perrin/Faile. The whole scene became very sterile. Just the handful of main characters. Except for Edarra, none of the other Wise Ones got even a mention. It's almost to the point that the whole world around in the Perrin POV consisted of only the "main/sub characters", nothing else.

 

It's as if Brandon sees the world in 2D and with just 256 colors. For those who say there is no difference. Tell me how you would have like your WOW to become a 2D game running on 256 colors.

 

For Brandon taking on WOT, he has my thanks:P I believe he understood totally what taking on WOT meant for him, his career and he as a fan. It’s a win for everyone. Brandon gets to learn from a master in epic fantasy, he got a jump start for his career and as a fan, I’m sure he loves to write the book. He definitely did not waste his time on WOT as someone stated. Instead, taking on WOT actually speed up his career. Before that was announced, how many of you have actually heard of Brandon and/or his books. I’m sure, like me, the first thing many of you did after the announcement is to do a google on who is Brandon Sanderson and what books had he wrote, followed by getting a copy of his book to check him out.

 

This is Brandon major gain for taking WOT.

http://www.google.com/trends?q=brandon+sanderson

 

I have nothing against Brandon, I just need somewhere to vent my frustrations after finishing the book. My mood after TGS was frustrated. My mood after finishing TOM is extreme sadness. I think I can understand some of what Egwene felt when she saw the tower breaking.

 

For reasons that I can’t explain, I REALLY ENJOY the book. Am I going crazy? How can I enjoy the book and still feel what I feel.

 

These really express what I feel about the series.

BWS spells things out in (often excruciating) detail, and Sanderson's humor is a little more juvenile

I was fed up with Egwene being changed beyond recognition she was one of my favourite characters

The characters are very, very, veryveryvery emo when written by Brandon.

BS had to spell it out for everybody to the point where he starts acting like a flirty girl with Mat, thus caricaturing the nature of his character.

There are two types of WoT fans, those of us who love the answer RAFO and wish Jordan had lived to make it a 20 book series

That is lazy writing. Instead of saying someone drew back, or their face paled, or their jaw set, we skipped the action and went straight to the conclusion

[David Selig]

I don't know about you, but I've had more than enough of the characters being unreasonable in first 11 books (especially the last 5 or so) and it's really refreshing to see them finally showing some common sense and trust in each other. Jordan's idea to have even those who are allies and friends mistrustful of each other, keeping their secrets at all costs and sticking to their personal agenda even with the Last Battle coming, was a very good one and a refreshing contrast from the typical epic fantasy, but he took it too far IMO. In the latter books, half of the plot relied on characters not telling each other stuff they have no reason to keep secret or refusing to ask for help even their best friends. This frustrated me. I'd rather read about the equally unlikely "too reasonable" attitude, it's just more enjoyable to me. And most of the reasonable stuff Sanderson writes isn't really that unlikely IMO, certainly less than "let's keep all of my secrets at all costs from all of my friends" attitude of most characters until he took over. People still have their own agendas, they are just more likely to compromise, make deals and share info. It's a bit forced at times, but nothing fatal IMO.

 

Also this was needed to finish the books in any reasonable time frame. Imagine ToM if the characters were behaving like in the last few Jordan books. Perrin and Galad would never have come to an agreement so fast, Elayne and Mat would've argued who's to have control of the dragons for 300 pages, the whole "Two Rivers as part of Andor" would've taken ages to resolve instead of a chapter, etc.

[messiestobjects]

 

 

So, Sanderson has written two books (Elantris and Warbreaker) that both dealt heavily with themes of religion, godhood, and what it means to be divine. The Mistborn series (especially the last two books and the beautiful ending to the series) dealt heavily with these things as well.

 

But, none of these were "big Mormon allegory".

 

I would say that Sanderson is a god person, in the sense that he struggles with questions of faith and religion. His novels often question what it means to be worship, what it means to read a holy text, or what it means to practice a religious ritual. He deals with the power of religion to act as both a manipulator and savior of men.

 

But he's pretty clearly not a blind-faith Jesus-freak, if that's what you mean by a "god person".

 

Sorry, I was sort of being infantile with the "big Mormon allegory" thing because he's from Utah, and I've never read his other books so I'm unfamiliar with his personal themes as a writer. But what I'm worried about is that he's trying to insert themes into the WoT world that weren't there before. Now yes of course Rand is a gigantic sore thumb of a Messianic character, but I don't have a problem with that in fantasy literature; it's an interesting story to tell, one of the oldest. It's just that certain moments in ToM sort of reminded me of 'The Pilgrim's Progress' with their more overt allegorical nature taking the religion in Randland seriously. Unfortunately, I'll have to read the book again to quote you the scenes that gave me that sense, because I wasn't taking notes the first time through.

 

Considering that RJ borrowed his themes from so many different religions and cultures, I never got the sense from him that he was using religious themes as anything other than a device to tell his story rather than using his story as a device to talk about religious themes.

 

And just to clear up where I'm coming from, when I say "God person" I mean anyone who takes religion in any form seriously, at all, not just the Jesus freaks. I despise religion.

[DrRonDerryJr]

The characters I grew up reading are changing. I'm happy they are changing. They've needed to grow up for about 6 books now. Especially Perrin and Rand. Rand is going to be a messiah. It's been known pretty much since book 1. His blood on the rocks at Shayol Gul will liberate the world from the Dark One. You don't get to be a bigger messiah than that.

 

Does their growing up seem a little forced? I feel it has. To be fair Brandon's only had 3 books to push them forward in.

[Casco]

The first thing that comes to my mind after TGS and TOM is...why, oh WHY couldnt BS write them in correct timelines?? I think the two books are at "random order" when you look at the chapters, feels like a audiobook with no tracknumbers on the audiofiles :(

We get to know that Perrin and whitecloaks are talking, we get to know about Morgase exposing her identity , Tom meeting Rand and so on, all in TGS. I was wery suprised to read about it again in TOM :O it did feel like the chapters in the two books are mixed up.

 

The biggest enjoyment however was that Mat did feel like Mat again :D BS did miss the right Mat feeling in TGS, but did get im back on track in TOM.

 

BTW...do you feel like the events are stressed in the two last books?? Very strange, 2 mastodont books and i think it goes to fast haha...but i suspect that i dont want the series to end, simple as that.

 

Anyway, good work BS!

[messiestobjects]

The characters I grew up reading are changing. I'm happy they are changing. They've needed to grow up for about 6 books now. Especially Perrin and Rand. Rand is going to be a messiah. It's been known pretty much since book 1. His blood on the rocks at Shayol Gul will liberate the world from the Dark One. You don't get to be a bigger messiah than that.

 

Does their growing up seem a little forced? I feel it has. To be fair Brandon's only had 3 books to push them forward in.

 

 

To make the same points I've been making all along another way, it feels less like the characters are growing up than it feels like they're becoming more shallow. Sure, technically what is happening to them in the books on the surface looks like growing up, but only the way a naive person thinks a grown-up behaves.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I don't know about you, but I've had more than enough of the characters being unreasonable in first 11 books (especially the last 5 or so) and it's really refreshing to see them finally showing some common sense and trust in each other. Jordan's idea to have even those who are allies and friends mistrustful of each other, keeping their secrets at all costs and sticking to their personal agenda even with the Last Battle coming, was a very good one and a refreshing contrast from the typical epic fantasy, but he took it too far IMO. In the latter books, half of the plot relied on characters not telling each other stuff they have no reason to keep secret or refusing to ask for help even their best friends. This frustrated me. I'd rather read about the equally unlikely "too reasonable" attitude, it's just more enjoyable to me. And most of the reasonable stuff Sanderson writes isn't really that unlikely IMO, certainly less than "let's keep all of my secrets at all costs from all of my friends" attitude of most characters until he took over. People still have their own agendas, they are just more likely to compromise, make deals and share info. It's a bit forced at times, but nothing fatal IMO.

 

Also this was needed to finish the books in any reasonable time frame. Imagine ToM if the characters were behaving like in the last few Jordan books. Perrin and Galad would never have come to an agreement so fast, Elayne and Mat would've argued who's to have control of the dragons for 300 pages, the whole "Two Rivers as part of Andor" would've taken ages to resolve instead of a chapter, etc.

 

Jordan held to the status quo, never permitting any of the characters to grow at a reasonable rate for too many books. Saying, "But those eleven books actually cover less than two plot years." doesn't cut it. He took too many books and too many actual years getting here. If he hadn't dragged his feet so badly, Sanderson wouldn't have to force everybody up like hothouse flowers now.

 

Even though he's been gone for three years, Jordan still controls the pacing because of how glacially he wrote the first eleven books. Too slow then causes too fast now.

[TheAngryDruid]

If anything, I'd say RJ dragged out their unreasonableness for way too damned long. And I'd say a lot of the posters here have a jaundiced view of some of the characters, especially the women (Egwene, Elayne, Cads, Faile, Tuon).

 

There is a big difference between stubborn, overbearing, and unreasonable. Almost everything has been reasonable (almost). Cadsuane's plan with Rand was entirely reasonable (and needed). Most readers just didn't like it because they side with Rand. Whatever. So is Egwene's reaction to Rand announcing he's going to break the seals. That will be status quo reaction of most (as it was with the Borderland leaders, and Faile).

 

However, those who know Rand best (Nynaeve, Min, Perrin) or who have studied the question (Min, Fel, Cadsuane) may have a different view.

 

Both sides are reasonable. But opposing.

 

There have been plenty of unreasonable characters in tGS and ToM. Mostly Gawyn and Tuon. Mat is still totally unreasonable in some ways (won't let Moiraine heal his eye, even though he trusts her, misses her, and equates her with a hero out of legend, and plus she's already healed him a zillion times). And it just cost Caemlyn dearly. Egwene (and Siuan/Bryne) not considering the possibility that the assassin's were Seanchan was just damn stupid. As was Verin betting so much on Mat's curiosity when she could have just informed a sister of Andoran descent as a backup.

 

But the characters had to grow. Faile's captivity made her realize it was time to stop playing silly games with Perrin and Berelain. About time! Rand's epiphany was an awakening, too. Now his closest allies can trust him instead of fearing him (Min, Nynaeve, Cadsuane, Dobraine, Darlin, High Lords & Ladies, etc). Perrin finally got the plot and faced his Wolf-self, and resolved the thing with Faile-Berelain. But this couldn't be resolved as long Faile was behaving childishly, now that she isn't, it is done. And the TR folks followed suit. Gawyn knows his mother is alive (he had to find out sometime), the source of some of his irrational behavior is gone. Now he's more rational.

[Kidicaris]

God, I agree 100%. I have a huge beef with all authors working extensive modern vernacular into fantasy and sci-fi series. I'm surpsied Egwene didn't say something like "break the seals? Really Rand? Really?" You know, in that sarcastic, douchey way that's so popular right now. Bah!

Oddly enough, the two times that 'played' showed up in a modern way (Graendal in the Prologue and Elayne speaking with Norry) I actually said "Really?" out loud.

'Played for a fool' would have been over nine thousand times better IMO.

 

I have to agree. Maybe it's not to the level of pet peeve for me, but BS did at times slip into a way of talking that was completely alien to WoT. Mat's letter in particular--though funny, read like an email. The cherry on top was the incorrect plural. Hello, Mat might not know how to spell, but surely he knows how to speak. It just smacked of the way we talk on the internet, on forums, in email and in chat windows.

 

BS has always had a little trouble writing Mat though. I think it boils down to RJ and BS having different personal humor. RJ seemed--through his writing, to have a dry sarcastic humor. BS seems to have a little more of a goofy streak. Not that Mat is walking on clown horns, but it's showing through in the writing.

 

p.s. Mat was not born in the O.C.

p.p.s Although I've been waiting for the rescue of Moiraine FOREVER and would have taken it anyway I got it. I was a little off put by how suddenly sentimental and emotional Moiraine was with Thom. Maybe it's been too long since I read the books she was alive in, maybe I am failing to fully understand how the trauma of her imprisonment has changed her, but it was surprising to see her almost simpering (?). I don't know. I've decided to tell myself a lot happened between those two off screen while we were creeping on Rand. Maybe if the scene happened without Mat present and it was only those two in private? (Since RJ's WoT is generally devoid of P.D.A. where people from across society and across cultures maintain strict separations between public and private.)

[mordething]

Brandon has lost even more cool points, there. I mean, you know, to each their own and all, but if he tries turning WoT into some big Mormon allegory I'm going to be really pissed, In the Biblical sense. There were actually a couple of lines in ToM that made me wonder if BS was a god person. I don't know if RJ was or not.

 

I'm with you there. I like Sanderson's writing but it's a bit too... conservative for my liking at times.

 

 

I laughed when I read about Gawyn needing a separate bed instead of just sharing Egwene's.   And I sure hope that the new, transformed, wise Rand won't turn out to be Jesus 2.0. So far I'm enjoying it but the thought does bother me a bit.

 

To be fair, Rand was always envisioned as a type of Jesus. Having said that, RJ Jesus/Rand was probably a much more harrowed and dark Savior than the BS Jesus/Rand.

 

I think BS is a very different type of author than RJ. The things most irritating to me with respect to BS has been 1) his need to over-explain everything, 2) his tendency to use words like 'authorize' which really have no place in the WOT narrative, and 3) his almost absurdist humor which, again, is deprived of any depth that RJ often had in previous books (think BS' use of Mat as comic relief which was never really Matts MO. He never set out to make himself look like a fool by, for instance, writing reams of background info as alibis for his friends.

 

Say what you will of RJ, he could write a story arc to its conclusion and still leave multiple questions for the reader to worry over (of course RJ's ability to actually leave a story arc finished is a different matter).

 

In sum, I think BS tends to overexpose everything, leaving little gray area in the story or the narrative. It just makes the books that much less interesting.

 

On the plus side, at least the story is moving towards a conclusion.

[EvilSocrates]

I am always too lazy to register for these things, but there are some interesting discussions on this board, hence and therefore: howdy.

 

I think Sanderson has some weaknesses in his writing for certain. In my opinion, the biggest one is the way he handles romantic love in his books, which he always makes a huge theme for some reason--it seems very adolescent. Many of his characters are display sentiments like: "Oh, I live for you, my darling, and I think and breathe only for you! You are my home and my all!" See, e.g. Perrin, Gawain, Min, and out of nowhere, Morgase. Interestingly, Mat (whose portrayal nobody likes apparently) is the only one who is more authentic. His feelings for Tuon are those of concern attachment and appreciation, mixed with a little bit of denial of course (He's bloody Mat, after all). That strikes me as much more like how adults who care for each other actually feel--love isn't a metaphysical force that shakes mountains (I'm looking at you Rand) it's an emotion, albeit an important one. In contrast, Robert Jordan has one of the best dramatic love scenes in any book I have ever read: Rand being bonded. The reaction of the women to feeling what he feels was simply astonishing--the contrast between Elayne horror and Aviendha's pride at feeling Ran's pain was beautiful. I don't think that Sanderson could have written that scene.

 

That said, overall I have to say I think Sanderson is a stronger author. Especially if you take into account the speed with which he is writing, bear in mind he is putting out his own excellent fantasy series at the same time and he is still way faster than Jordan. Everything in his books has a purpose, the pacing is excellent, his battle scenes well executed and logical, and his character development consistent and strong. He also doesn't describe cloth for no reason. Forever. Jordan created some great characters, and a great world, but he never really knew what to do with them after a point. The books up to Fires of Heaven were fantastic because you were exploring Randland and meeting the major players (go Mat!) and the Aiel (who, though awesome, are just Fremen in disguise, let's be serious). After that, I really think that the series got bogged down in RJ's endless descriptions of baths and cloth and sniffing women and woolheads and older women who are still beautiful and ripened (man loved the older ladies!). Sanderson actually manages a plot that progresses, along with its characters who are not morons.

 

What would be optimal would be if they could have somehow co-authored the books so we could get pivotal scenes like the Cleansing to be written like only Jordan could, but that the rest of the books (and battle scenes) were not so painful and meandering. Ah well.

 

The good news is that Sanderson gets better with every book--the Way of Kings was excellent. Sorry for the rant, I just don't see the view that Sanderson is an improvement tossed around much.

 

P.S.

Why all the Egwene hate? I think she and Min are the strongest female characters in the series. I used to really dislike Egwene because she was a punk who thought she knew everything, but her Aiel training and her takeover of the tower from within really let her shine. She's a fantastic Aes Sedai, which are sorely needed, because RJ wrote them all as incompetent morons for some reason (just like the dreaded Forsaken, who couldn't conquer Idaho if they had to, but the lack of good villains is another rant entirely).

[Mat is Better]

but using out of character words/phrases, this I don't like. Especially 20th/21st century terms. I can see Brandon may find it easier/quicker to write the story with these terms initially, so he's not second guessing himself and getting out of 'the groove', but they shouldn't make it past editing for the final cut.

This is the problem that I have with the text also. I'm not sure where the bathroom fetish comes from though. I didn't even notice it was missing.

[CoonDawg]

I'm a little confused. We've suffered 11 books of nonsensical personalities, and now that Sanderson has started to straighten that out, everyone is saying it's "happening too fast?"

 

Let's go back to the first few books. Egwene, all the way until The Dragon Reborn, swooned over Rand. All of her Aes Sedai testing involved him. All of her reasons and pursuits were to help him, and she obsessed over marrying him. Then, book 4. Ended just like that. No reasoning, no explanation, just "yeah, it isn't working out". Not that I'm complaining, of course; I must say I have a huge bias against Egwene, since her very introduction. I was beginning to worry that Min's fortelling was wrong.

 

Anyway, my point is people seem upset that Sanderson is starting to make the characters think like real human beings, in a some-what subtle way (given the circumstances and time crunch), with explanations. True, Perrin and Mat DID wake up in TGS and suddenly say "Huh, you know, Rand probably shouldn't be treated like a snake on a plane", but they should never have had anything against him in the first place. He was their friend, doing something he certainly never wanted to do. No true friend would throw someone away like that. However, when JORDAN makes a character do a 180 like Egwene does, no one thinks that is odd.

 

By the way, I'm insulting no one, least of all Jordan. But the characters have always been a huge flaw in this story. They're starting to straighten out. Really, the only loose end is Egwene, which hopefully will get reworked into the proper pattern next book. Oh, and there's that whole women hating, manipulating, and stepping all over men thing (Wow, poor Jordan, he must have had a poor marriage), but that's WoT's very soul. I wouldn't fix that for the world.

[EvilSocrates]

I think the subtle sexism, or, as CoonDawg says "that whole women hating, manipulating, and stepping all over men thing," is actually a clever part of the world. The subtle sexism is a direct result of the Breaking. True, only men who can Channel are directly feared, 1) you never really know who they are until they go crazy and blow up your whole face, and 2) it means Channelers, a supreme authority in Randland, are all female, thus distorting the culture further than just general "Dudes broke the world, the jerks" sentiment. It's a really clever way that RJ thought of to have women in powerful roles in a medieval setting without it seeming forced, as it might otherwise--primitive societies like Andor would not normally have a tradition of Queens, I'd imagine, for example.

[messiestobjects]

I think the subtle sexism, or, as CoonDawg says "that whole women hating, manipulating, and stepping all over men thing," is actually a clever part of the world. The subtle sexism is a direct result of the Breaking. True, only men who can Channel are directly feared, 1) you never really know who they are until they go crazy and blow up your whole face, and 2) it means Channelers, a supreme authority in Randland, are all female, thus distorting the culture further than just general "Dudes broke the world, the jerks" sentiment. It's a really clever way that RJ thought of to have women in powerful roles in a medieval setting without it seeming forced, as it might otherwise--primitive societies like Andor would not normally have a tradition of Queens, I'd imagine, for example.

 

 

Yeah it kills me when people complain about the sexism and all of the annoying bitchy women. RJ did that on purpose; he wanted to create a world where the 'Original Sin' was perpetrated by men rather than by an Eve and see what would happen with that. It's quite genius, and I like seeing the tables turned in that way on us. This is what a pre male suffrage world would look like.

[Mercer]

Oh there are definite differences, especially if you've read any of Sanderson's other works. For me Sanderson beats Jordan when it comes to actually plotting and story arc development--his books never lose their focus the way Jordan's have at times. The difference is the way they outline. Sanderson has said he outlines everything, while Jordan lets things happen naturally--he calls it being an "Architect" vs "Gardener" or words to that effect.

 

Jordan has the ability to wring tears out of you, something that Sanderson doesn't. Sanderson's prose is competent and he's a good story teller, but he doesn't have that deft touch that Jordan has with wringing you dry. If I were to wager a guess I'd say that Bulen meeting up with Lan in the start of TOM was written by Sanderson, because i think that Jordan would've packed much more emotional punch into that scene. Just a guess though.

 

I do think Sanderson has done far better than anyone thought he could and I can't imagine any other author being able to do what he's done. I think it helps that he started out reading the books along with all of us back when it all started, so he's been following along forever too.

Yes, you've put your finger on something I've been trying to express actually. I come away from a lot of those touchy-feely scenes feeling a bit cheated, because I don't feel like BS earned the touchy-feeliness. He just describes it, bang boom next scene. RJ definitely had a way of painting negative spaces.

Definitely a heck of a point, I couldn't have said it better. I simply read the gushy parts and think "Well, they were bound to happen, but I don't really care much"...but thinking about it, there were lots of scenes where RJ got me wound up one way or the other. And even if they were emotional scenes, I wouldn't be describing them as "gushy".