Mat's Arc

[Danvighar]

I get a feeling Mat was deliberately counting on his luck to make the Bargain, possibly in a bit of misguided genre-savvy that people who write out detailed wishes usually get screwed over.

 

They had agreed on Noal before an Asha'man was even a possibility, and as has been said, Mat doesn't trust the One Power, yet another way that Tuon and Mat have some interesting reversals. He trusts the Power less than she does, yet most Seanchan would refuse Healing from a damane.

 

Besides, if they were willing to, the foxes and snakes could just munch down on the Asha'man's ability to channel.

[Sharaman]

It's not very clear how they did that.

My guess is that Moiraine-Lanfear both lost the source when they fell through the door.

That allowed the Finns to shield them (they do have ter'angreal apart from amazing control of local landscape).

Then they allowed /forced the two to somehow hold the source and drained them of saidar without letting them ever form weaves?

That part of it is crazy because I cannot believe a channeler would not lash out if she could, in such circumstances.

So they have the ability to drain saidar / saidin at will though they can't channel themselves?

And they did let Rand out when he channeled his sword and left in the Tear basement.

Of course, that could be some other deal.

Apparently the Snakes don't kill people for asking questions (that don't touch upon the Shadow, etc).

In fact, the snakes don't charge anything - they just drink the emotions.

[Baelorn]

And they did let Rand out when he channeled his sword and left in the Tear basement.

 

Rand was protected by the treaties. It's possible that Moiraine and Lanfear weren't because the door was destroyed. Maybe.

[pattyruss]

And they did let Rand out when he channeled his sword and left in the Tear basement.

 

Rand was protected by the treaties. It's possible that Moiraine and Lanfear weren't because the door was destroyed. Maybe.

 

Well since the doorway was destroyed and neither Moraine nor Lanfear had an ashandarei-esque access key like Mat did to escape the towers, maybe the Aelfinn and Eelfinn were able to capture Moiraine and Lanfear after they both became exhausted from channeling for too long of a time. They entered the realms of the Aelfinn and Eelfinn at the end of the fifth book which is about a year or so before Moiraine was able to escape at the end of the thirteenth book. So it's fairly likely that Moiraine and Lanfear just wore themselves out. I don't think gateways would have worked in the Aelfinn and Eelfinn realm seeing as how the world of the Aelfinn and Eelfinn is another dimension. I don't think its possible to use gateways to connect two locations between dimensions but then again you can create a gateway from Randland to T'A'R so I don't know...

[David Selig]

So Matt planned for some time to go to the Tower of Ghenji. He must have considered the possibility that to get back Moraine, he would have to bargain with the Foxes and Snakes. If so, why did he not prepare a list of demands ahead of time? A safe escape route etc. If he had done this, rather than making it up on the spur of the moment, then he would not have forgotten to include the Snakes in his demand not to be attacked on the way back. It is this oversight and lack of planning that is DIRECTLY responsible for Noal being killed. I would have thought Matt should have felt a little guilty about that after he had escaped imo.

In KoD Mat realised that the Finns most probably could see through his eyes and possibly even read his thoughts, this is what he reasoned to be the most logical way they can collect memories like the ones they gave him. So he probably didn't want them to know his list of demands in advance and to have time to prepare a plan to trick him.

 

BTW, I am wondering whether Mat or Tom told Elayne that he's married to the Seanchan Empress on that dinner after their first meting. Elayne was certainly quite curious about who Mat married, and Tom in this book told Perrin and Moiraine about it, so he or mat probably told Elayne too. If true, it's a shame it happened off screen, it would've been fun to see her and Birgitte's reaction. maybe it didn't happen and we will see this in the next book.

 

Come to think of it, what I want to see even more is how Egwene will take the news of who is Mat's wife. There will be an awful lot of glaring, I guess. ;)

[Demon_AS]

Y'know, I have to wonder why in the world Mat chose Noal as the third person. I understand that if he hadn't then everything probably wouldn't have turned out, but if I was Mat, I would've tried to get someone other than a gnarled old man. Like maybe an Asha'man to destroy the CRAP out of those damn snakes and foxes.

 

Mat doesn't know that saidin is clean. He still thinks Rand and every other male channeler is bug nuts. He's still incapable of seeing past his prejudice where anything and anyone concerned with channeling is concerned. Besides, Noal volunteered.

Doesn't he? Hmmm, my memory is pricking at me - I am sure one of the Asha'man mentions it to him, although Mat seemed less-than-convinced.

 

I could be wrong, however. A feel a re-read of the entire damned thing, soon :P.

[didymos]

Y'know, I have to wonder why in the world Mat chose Noal as the third person. I understand that if he hadn't then everything probably wouldn't have turned out, but if I was Mat, I would've tried to get someone other than a gnarled old man. Like maybe an Asha'man to destroy the CRAP out of those damn snakes and foxes.

 

Mat doesn't know that saidin is clean. He still thinks Rand and every other male channeler is bug nuts. He's still incapable of seeing past his prejudice where anything and anyone concerned with channeling is concerned. Besides, Noal volunteered.

Doesn't he? Hmmm, my memory is pricking at me - I am sure one of the Asha'man mentions it to him, although Mat seemed less-than-convinced.

 

I could be wrong, however. A feel a re-read of the entire damned thing, soon :P.

 

Verin told him about it. And he was convinced. Shocked, but convinced.

[Demon_AS]

Y'know, I have to wonder why in the world Mat chose Noal as the third person. I understand that if he hadn't then everything probably wouldn't have turned out, but if I was Mat, I would've tried to get someone other than a gnarled old man. Like maybe an Asha'man to destroy the CRAP out of those damn snakes and foxes.

 

Mat doesn't know that saidin is clean. He still thinks Rand and every other male channeler is bug nuts. He's still incapable of seeing past his prejudice where anything and anyone concerned with channeling is concerned. Besides, Noal volunteered.

Doesn't he? Hmmm, my memory is pricking at me - I am sure one of the Asha'man mentions it to him, although Mat seemed less-than-convinced.

 

I could be wrong, however. A feel a re-read of the entire damned thing, soon :P.

 

Verin told him about it. And he was convinced. Shocked, but convinced.

That must be it. Thanks!

[WolfDragonFox]

Mat was funny, not sure i liked not seeing anymore of his battle prowess but thats okay. Loved the Boots speech that was some profound stuff. Didn't like the fact that he ended up not opening the letter but i gotta say it definitely made for a nice bit at the end with Caemlyn burning and and interesting look into Olver's kinda twisted thoughts....hmmm.

 

I agree with many that the letter to Elayne tho hilarious was a bit tacky with the crossouts. We know the guy can spell. I am quite dissapointed in the way Noal's reveal as Jain was handled even though we already knew who he was. It was kind of just thrown out there as an afterthought. Would have liked to see MUCH more explanation and specifics of how he was used...we know it was Ishy that did it and possibly Graendal (old man we saw) but. I like the luck usage but am quite intrigued to see how Mats lack of depth perception will affect him in battle now.

 

All in all i was quite satisfied with how Mat was written and we have a few more classic quotes from him!

[Gadunga]

So I'm a long time lurker, first time poster.

 

So I've been reading the thread and I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on Tuon essentially saying "We need to hit the White Tower, now" and the horn being located there. Why do I get the feeling that the Seanchan will open a gateway into the same room where the horn is, right as Mat is grabbing it. It just sounds like something that would happen in the books.

[FarShainMael]

i read almost all the posts, but I think I missed a post or 2....

 

has anyone put together the "lightning his eye" prophecy yet?

something like, when fortune rides on high, luck his soul, lighting his eye, something something something

well fortune isn't fortune, its fortuana, and she has to lead an attack or something from a raken or something

and luck his soul, obvious

and lighting his eye, well I remember years ago people thought it was either the bands "speed" mat always brags about, and some thought it was the cannons

but he only looses 1 eye, and the prophecy says "eye" not "eyes" I think... so maybe he replaces it, or maybe the other begins to represent, something that represents lighting?

 

It's from CoT28:

"Fortune rides like the sun on high

with the fox that makes the ravens fly.

Luck his soul, the lightning his eye,

He snatches the moons from out of the sky."

 

So that is eye, singular. Like you, I think he'll be wearing some kind of prosthetic!

 

The 'fox that makes the ravens fly' is obviously Mat, so it's tempting to think of both him and Fortuona taking to the skies on a raken for a bit of aerial combat, perhaps against the draghkar.

[FarShainMael]

So I'm a long time lurker, first time poster.

 

So I've been reading the thread and I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on Tuon essentially saying "We need to hit the White Tower, now" and the horn being located there. Why do I get the feeling that the Seanchan will open a gateway into the same room where the horn is, right as Mat is grabbing it. It just sounds like something that would happen in the books.

 

oooooouchhhhhh!!

 

And Mat says: 'Hullo Precious, how did you get here?'

[Baelorn]

So I'm a long time lurker, first time poster.

 

So I've been reading the thread and I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on Tuon essentially saying "We need to hit the White Tower, now" and the horn being located there. Why do I get the feeling that the Seanchan will open a gateway into the same room where the horn is, right as Mat is grabbing it. It just sounds like something that would happen in the books.

 

Those rooms are heavily warded. If the Seanchan try to enter through there they're in for a surprise.

[dwn]

I suspect the majority of the Tower's basements and unused rooms are warded by now. The Aes Sedai know the Seanchan likely have Travelling, and they definitely know the BA have it. The Aes Sedai also have a huge pool of novices to pull into circles in the event of another attack.

 

I think we're geared up for Tuon to lose nearly all her damane in a White Tower invasion.

 

-- dwn

[randsc]

Maybe without his eye, Mat will not be too pretty for Brigette, and he can upgrade from Tuon.

[Duskfire]

I love how when the Finns take Mats eye they practically orgasm at how important he seems to be.

[aynatal2000]

Mat was pretty awesome. Specially his "removal" of the gholam. That was badass.

 

Anyone notice the interesting thing Moiraine brought up? A man came, but said she wasnt the one he wanted??

 

Im thinking Luc/Isam. I didnt think he went into the ToG in tSR, but it seems likely.

 

I would rather say Moridin.

 

Luc/Isam/Slayer went into the Tower of Ghenjie in the fourth book when Perrin was back home in Emonds Field fighting Trollocs...he also got a glimpse of Birgitte there in the Wolf Dream.

[didymos]

Luc/Isam/Slayer went into the Tower of Ghenjie in the fourth book when Perrin was back home in Emonds Field fighting Trollocs...he also got a glimpse of Birgitte there in the Wolf Dream.

 

All the book says is that he vanished when he got near it. Perrin just assumed he entered, and Birgitte warned him off, telling him that if you enter in in T'A'R it's even harder to escape than usual. The most likely explanation, given that Slayer had absolutely no reason to enter and had stuff to do back in the Two Rivers, is that Slayer just wanted to fool Perrin into entering, and did the T'A'R teleport trick to sell it.

[Duskfire]

Luc/Isam/Slayer went into the Tower of Ghenjie in the fourth book when Perrin was back home in Emonds Field fighting Trollocs...he also got a glimpse of Birgitte there in the Wolf Dream.

 

All the book says is that he vanished when he got near it. Perrin just assumed he entered, and Birgitte warned him off, telling him that if you enter in in T'A'R it's even harder to escape than usual. The most likely explanation, given that Slayer had absolutely no reason to enter and had stuff to do back in the Two Rivers, is that Slayer just wanted to fool Perrin into entering, and did the T'A'R teleport trick to sell it.

 

But it still shows a potential link between ToG and Slayer, even if its only a coincedential one.

 

I just think if it was Moridin he would have known how important Moiraine was, and taken advantage of that. Slayer on the other hand, if he was sent into Ghenjei, wouldn't probably know of the signifiance of Moiraine and thus overlooked her.

[Sharaman]

This isn't really worth arguing about since it's more or less impossible to resolve.

But it might just be Moridin for several reasons.

1) Moiraine might have said a guy who looked like Lan/ Rand came and saw her if it was Slayer. Isam strongly resembles Lan and Luc resembles Rand.

2) Strong presumption that whoever it was, also smashed the Tear Portal with Power and Slayer can't do that.

3) Slayer's power would be useless in Finnland since TAR is inaccessible there. Moridin can channel both OP and TP and is hence, better protected.

 

I assume it was Moridin. He walked in through Tear, asked the Finns the statutory questions, went to the Bond Chamber, picked up Lanfear (perhaps dead) and then smashed the Tear Portal to make it more difficult to rescue Moiraine and to ask questions/ bargain.

Not killing a random prisoner also makes sense - why waste a bargain or antagonise the Finns?

[waffle]

Why would Moridin go to the finns?

[Bob T Dwarf]

Why would Moridin go to the finns?

 

To retrieve Lanfear.

 

The destruction of the Tear doorway is interesting. Mesaana had tried to enter that storeroom and gave up because of how nastily Rand had trapped it. Seems unlikely that anyone entered that way.

 

Questions are: does a trap/ward against entry into the storeroom prevent exit from the storeroom? Could that gateway be destroyed entirely from the Finn's side? If so, how would whomever destroyed it get back out of Finnland?

[dwn]

Why would Moridin go to the finns?

 

To retrieve Lanfear.

 

The destruction of the Tear doorway is interesting. Mesaana had tried to enter that storeroom and gave up because of how nastily Rand had trapped it. Seems unlikely that anyone entered that way.

 

Questions are: does a trap/ward against entry into the storeroom prevent exit from the storeroom? Could that gateway be destroyed entirely from the Finn's side? If so, how would whomever destroyed it get back out of Finnland?

 

Maybe the *Finns destroyed themselves it when the other doorway melted. Having just one doorway (to the Aelfinn) perhaps unbalances their treaty with the Aes Sedai.

 

-- dwn

[Jeangray]

The destruction of the Tear doorway is interesting. Mesaana had tried to enter that storeroom and gave up because of how nastily Rand had trapped it. Seems unlikely that anyone entered that way.

 

She was unable to get at AS goodies too, wasn't she? Did Rand also ward it against Travelling? Frankly, the Tear hoard never made sense in the first place, because Bel'al and his pet BAs stayed there for months. One would have thought that they would have taken everything of use. After Rand moved in there was another month when FS could stroll in and out before Rand managed to ward it. For some inexplicable reason Moiraine never even tried to ward it, IIRC.

And given that Rhuidean wards didn't actually keep Asmo out, I don't understand why Ishamael didn't clean it out long ago, during one of his stints out of the Bore.

Elayne's stuff also seems ripe for the picking. Does she even ward it at all?

 

Anyway, the FS inability to get at all this largely unguarded stuff highlighted their terminal idiocy .

[waffle]

Why would Moridin go to the finns?

To retrieve Lanfear.

 

Why? Considering that Lanfear was brought back in a new body, one must assume that the DO knew of her demise, and thus Moridin knew as well. What reason to get her old body? Did Moridin need Lanfears old body for some... khm sinister purpose?

 

Or did Moridin go there, bring lanfear back and then kill her?

 

Not saying it wasn´t Moridin. Can´t see any of the other big players going to there and Moiraine not recognizing them (Demandred perhaps?). But i don´t understand why he would go there.