Mat's Arc

[Jack Shaftoe]

Maybe just the head was power forged and not the shaft?

 

Looks like that's the case (TFoH ch.3):

 

"Reaching behind him, he set his wide-brimmed hat on his head and fished the odd spear

across his knees. Instead of an ordinary spearhead, it had what looked like a two-foot sword blade, marked with a pair of ravens. Lan said that that blade had been made with the One Power during the War of the Shadow, the War of the Power; the Warder claimed it would never need sharpening and never break."

[mcbernier]

Too much luck? About the only thing he used his luck for was navigating the Tower. And fighting the gholam was almost exclusively planning and skill as well.

 

Hi! You bring up something that helps me clarify what I'm trying to say: you wrote: "he used his luck." That's just it, I don't think luck is something he uses, but something he relies on. He doesn't use his luck to win at dice, he relies on it. Luck is not an active force (is it??), coming to bat for him, but it's passive, something that he doesn't control, something he doesn't whip out when he needs it. It's not The Force (a power he can harness and use); it's just luck. Does that make sense?

 

I have to disagree somewhat. He's been actively "controlling" it for a long time now. It's not that he turns it on or off or up or whatever, but once he recognized that his luck ALWAYS gives him the result he wants on actions that rely on some amount of random chance, he can simply change what result he wants. If he wants to lose at dice, he WILL lose. If he wants to win at dice, but not in an improbable manner(like always throwing sixes), he succeeds. If he wants to throw dozens of coins into the air and get all heads, he will. By changing the result he wants to achieve, he changes the outcome achieved. In the ToG, he actively decided that he'd roll two dice and use the result, based on specific criteria, to decide which path he should take, and it worked.

 

I would say that qualifies as "using" his luck.

 

 

'Need' is perhaps a better word than 'want'; they usually coincide, but when they don't the former seems to take precedence.

 

Hi. Interesting thoughts here, and I appreciate them. Ala Rubra, you may be right about Mat "controlling" his luck. But what you describe is exactly the thing I am concerned with. The more that Mat can "control" his luck, based on either his need or want (and who or what decides what the difference is between these? that is a major philosophical question) the more it looks like "the force." It's because the "luck" is written about as though it responds to his wants, his desires, his needs, that it almost can seem like a sentient being that is reading his needs/wants and responding accordingly. Is it luck? Or is it something more? This quality mat possess (luck) is to me both one of the most interesting in the books, as well as one of the easiest to misuse--for it is not guided (as far as I can tell) by any carefully thought out laws (e.g., those that govern the use of the One Power). And the more that mat controls it, the less it is luck, and the more it is something he is actively doing--it becomes a "super power" he possess, rather than just luck. That's my concern. Luck is almost by definition something you can't actively control. I think it's awesome, but I fear it bordered on going too far in the ToG. Maybe I'm wrong.

 

Now, you bring up good stuff when you point out that if he wants to win at dice, or lose, or change the results, etc, then he can. But if he ALWAYS wins, and his luck ALWAYS get him what he wants or needs, then really, there is no mystery, no surprise, and little room for suspense. There was, at least in the beginning, some suspense about it--he didn't always win, he didn't always get "what he wanted." But now, I worry that it's becoming too strong, if he can simply spin in a circle and pick the right direction. He could probably beat the Dark One all by himself. He's that lucky.

 

Final thoughts (then I must get back to work). Does he "control" the luck, or does it "control" him? The more it responds to his "wants" the more he could "control" it, but the more it responds to his "needs" the more it will seemingly "control" (direct) his path. So there could be a randomness as to what he is going to get, even though his luck is leading him. For example, when he was in the ToG, and he was spinning to find the "right" direction, I think it would have been MUCH MUCH better if he had trusted his "luck," but it had brought him somewhere completely unexpected, to some crazy back room with some dark crazy secret about the Finns, or what have you (and NOT to the places he WANTED to go). I would have been happy with that. Because then he wouldn't have been in control of the "luck", and that would have made a big difference. I hope that makes sense.

[bysomy]

His luck is his Taveren-ness, the pattern bending arround him. Rand thought that he could kill someone by willing her heart to stop, so it is not actually all that big. Perrin is the only one who can't control it like them.

[gary0044187]

His luck is his Taveren-ness, the pattern bending arround him. Rand thought that he could kill someone by willing her heart to stop, so it is not actually all that big. Perrin is the only one who can't control it like them.

I was going to make that point, that it seems people that are strongly taveren can manipulate the pattern as they grow more comfortable with their power. Rand was really tearing things up when he was dark rand, now he can confidently inform people that only the bags they had opened so far have been spoiled, and voila, the rest of the shipment is good. Egwene believed rand would have been able to break free of the double circle on him. The list goes on. Seems only perrin has failed to manifest this and I believe it is to do with how until recently he has fought against who he is. It might be too late for him to learn to manipulate the pattern before his taveren time ends

[capuga]

His luck is his Taveren-ness, the pattern bending arround him. Rand thought that he could kill someone by willing her heart to stop, so it is not actually all that big. Perrin is the only one who can't control it like them.

 

Mat's luck is pretty clearly described throughout the series as something special and different than what Rand has. In regards to Rand killing someone by willing - I always thought that was just bluster and a threat, I don't believe he actually could have done it.

[moratcorlm]

Second in the Dark Phrophacy at the end - Any guess what the "One-Eyed Fool walks the halls of mourning" means?

Since the Eelfinn called themselves the "warriors of final regret" I'd say it's a good bet that refers to Mat entering the Tower of Ghenjei, especially considering that happened the night before Rand's Merrilor Conference when he plans to break the seals.

[mcbernier]

I tend to think that Mat has his luck because he is Taveren, and I don't identify his "luck" and "taveren" as being the same thing. As someone else pointed out, it seems Mat's luck is special, and quite different from what anyone else has (and any other taveren).

 

Side note: I think his luck is "responsible" for the gifts he received from the Finns. If memory serves, wasn't he just talking randomly off the top of his head when he met them, and thereby received his memories and his spear (maybe someone else can confirm this)?

[Val Mickey]

Yes. He didn't even know he was supposed to ask for stuff.

[Annia]

Second in the Dark Phrophacy at the end - Any guess what the "One-Eyed Fool walks the halls of mourning" means?

Since the Eelfinn called themselves the "warriors of final regret" I'd say it's a good bet that refers to Mat entering the Tower of Ghenjei, especially considering that happened the night before Rand's Merrilor Conference when he plans to break the seals.

 

I had totally forgotten that! I'd be interested to know how that name came to be... Too bad we probably wont find out.

[kristineaskada]

 

I dont think BS has a handle on how to write mat the humor is wrong the speech is wrong and mat just doesn't FEEL the same to me.

 

 

I agree with this. I don't think Sanderson has a good handle on Mat, or Elayne, for that matter. He writes them both too simple and the characters' personalities don't come out the same at all. I can enjoy the story, though. We can't expect someone else to write everything perfectly. I just wish that everything didn't seem so disjointed and rushed.

[kristineaskada]

Things that can divide a fandom surprise me. Mat's letter was funny and it worked for me and others; it didn't work for some people, and it wasn't funny for them. Nuff said really. Focusing on a half a page of dialogue in that big book just seems...silly.

 

I thought a better subject to divide the fandom, something that exists in this and the last book, would be the fact that differing dialects no longer really exist for people from different countries. Or the fact that when Mat talked in the Old Tongue in the ToG, the sentence structure and word choice didn't change to give you a hint that he was speaking the Old Tongue unconsciously. These two things added flavor to series and I'll miss them, even if i don't know if Team Jordan should take the time fix them.

 

A few badass/funny Mat moments that I loved:

 

• 
   
  
• Birgitte Mat dicing with the guards after they caught him sneaking in the palace.
  
• His reunion with Perrin /w badger.
  
• "Pretty as [Joline] was, Mat did not think of her as a match for one of his friends. He would never wish Joline upon someone he liked"
  
• The gholam fight but especially when he slammed the duplicate foxhead medallions into its palms, smiled and said "Guess I just got lucky."
  
• The Tower of Ghenjei. Very tense, with the "Oh, Motherf***er!" moment, of him using the damn dagger-staff to escape. Hidden in plan sight, well done Mr. Jordan.
  
• The image of Mat tossing two dozen coins in the air, then calmly staring at Birgitte as they all land face up.
  
• But my all time favorite Mat moment in this book was just a simple one. Him walking in the rain at night, without his medallion, getting more and more freaked out about no one being about, not even beggars or thieves. Then he hears a noise, stops, and sees a robbery happening down a dark alley way. The four thieves see Mat, leave their victim and come charging Mat, swinging weapons.
  

 

Mat relaxed, wiping his brow free of rainwater. So there were footpads out this night. What a relief. He had been jumping at nothing!

 

Then he proceeds to kicks all their asses.

 

That's pure Mat Cauthon.

 

I so agree with you on your points here. Let's get over the letter, big deal. I didn't like the feel of it either, but it was just a letter. It wasn't a significant piece of storyline.

Those little moments when we got to see the real Mat were awesome, but it sucks missing the old feel of the character, too.

[benny the ball]

I see Rand's Taveren nature as being a little like the Oath's in some regards. If Rand really belived that someone had to die for him/the pattern to sucseed, then they would(whever through a grand series of events like Samuel or just falling down dead in the middle of a room)

 

if he didn't truely belive it NEEDED to happen it wouldn't.

 

Matt's is very differnt in the fact that it relies on random chance. If Matt was in the same circumstances as Rand(needing someone to died) they'd likely drown swallowing a mouthfull of wine or slipping in the jakes or something

 

We have yet to see what Perrin can really do yet barring him gathering the nobles and a few fights and the like(there is a lot more of Perrins Tavern nature than this but nothing as grand as what the other two do yet)

 

On a side note i'd like to see more about Matt reputaion. Rand hearing a few rumours and going "He knew about Lord of Battles of course and the Hanged man but where had the title prince of Ravens come from?"

 

May the rippings begin!!

[Lacanos]

I see Rand's Taveren nature as being a little like the Oath's in some regards. If Rand really belived that someone had to die for him/the pattern to sucseed, then they would(whever through a grand series of events like Samuel or just falling down dead in the middle of a room)

 

if he didn't truely belive it NEEDED to happen it wouldn't.

 

Matt's is very differnt in the fact that it relies on random chance. If Matt was in the same circumstances as Rand(needing someone to died) they'd likely drown swallowing a mouthfull of wine or slipping in the jakes or something

 

We have yet to see what Perrin can really do yet barring him gathering the nobles and a few fights and the like(there is a lot more of Perrins Tavern nature than this but nothing as grand as what the other two do yet)

 

On a side note i'd like to see more about Matt reputaion. Rand hearing a few rumours and going "He knew about Lord of Battles of course and the Hanged man but where had the title prince of Ravens come from?"

 

May the rippings begin!!

 

There's something in Perrin's Taveren nature that makes people better fighters or something - we've had this much told us in ToM, and even as far back as TSR he's teaching people in the Two Rivers to fight at a fast pace

[Durinax]

I see Rand's Taveren nature as being a little like the Oath's in some regards. If Rand really belived that someone had to die for him/the pattern to sucseed, then they would(whever through a grand series of events like Samuel or just falling down dead in the middle of a room)

 

if he didn't truely belive it NEEDED to happen it wouldn't.

 

Matt's is very differnt in the fact that it relies on random chance. If Matt was in the same circumstances as Rand(needing someone to died) they'd likely drown swallowing a mouthfull of wine or slipping in the jakes or something

 

We have yet to see what Perrin can really do yet barring him gathering the nobles and a few fights and the like(there is a lot more of Perrins Tavern nature than this but nothing as grand as what the other two do yet)

 

On a side note i'd like to see more about Matt reputaion. Rand hearing a few rumours and going "He knew about Lord of Battles of course and the Hanged man but where had the title prince of Ravens come from?"

 

May the rippings begin!!

we have the same thing with rand and the start of the ashaman

There's something in Perrin's Taveren nature that makes people better fighters or something - we've had this much told us in ToM, and even as far back as TSR he's teaching people in the Two Rivers to fight at a fast pace

rands nature did something of the same, except with channellers

[samataim]

This quality mat possess (luck) is to me both one of the most interesting in the books, as well as one of the easiest to misuse--for it is not guided (as far as I can tell) by any carefully thought out laws (e.g., those that govern the use of the One Power). And the more that mat controls it, the less it is luck, and the more it is something he is actively doing--it becomes a "super power" he possess, rather than just luck. That's my concern. Luck is almost by definition something you can't actively control. I think it's awesome, but I fear it bordered on going too far in the ToG. Maybe I'm wrong.

 

Well, I think it has been demonstrated in the books that using his luck is only good for simple things. this goes for dice instead of cards (he references this in book 4), and it seems to go for choice as well, should I go with Rand to Ruidhen, or should I go with Perrin to the TR? remember there were a few times he flipped a coin for decisions like that and it landed on end, he blamed it on Rand at the time, but later there were other instances of him trying to use a coin flip for major choices and landing on end. By ToM we've seen him give up on using his luck in that way, and he uses his knowledge, and this own judgment re. choosing to not open Verin's letter until after he returns from helping Moiraine, if he had flipped a coin for that choice, it would have probably landed on end.

 

Now, you bring up good stuff when you point out that if he wants to win at dice, or lose, or change the results, etc, then he can. But if he ALWAYS wins, and his luck ALWAYS get him what he wants or needs, then really, there is no mystery, no surprise, and little room for suspense. There was, at least in the beginning, some suspense about it--he didn't always win, he didn't always get "what he wanted." But now, I worry that it's becoming too strong, if he can simply spin in a circle and pick the right direction. He could probably beat the Dark One all by himself. He's that lucky.

 

well, there's still suspense, you know he's going to win, but you aren't quite sure of it. I mean, when he diced his way to wining all that food in that weird town where everyone killed each other at night, sure he won, but he also pretty damn near got stuck in the town.

 

when he was in the ToG he was choosing the right directions to go, but everyone would have died if he didn't figure out his spear was a key.

 

you can go as far back as to when the luck started for him and see that luck only got him so far before people tried to kill him, and then it was down to his skill. Granted, if one of the two people fighting were to trip, it wouldn't be Mat.

 

imo about Rand's confidence walking in and out of the WT was not him knowing he can break free of them, he can't, but he knew that the pattern would have him free, the pattern needs him free. He knew that he would be allowed to leave the WT one way or another, if they tried to hold him, something strange would have happened that would have resulted in him walking out of the tower.

 

Verin explains it very well in the previous book, she wanted to leave that little town that Mat was going to travel through, but whatever she did, something always happened to keep her there, when she resigned to the fact she was going to stay there, things stopped happening, but if she had tried to leave again, something else would have happened to keep her there.

 

That is how taveren works, if the threads that the taveren must cross can't be crossed, things will happen to make them cross.

[Phoebe]

I'm just curious about something: toward the beginning of the book, the dice are rolling in Mat's head. Maybe I didn't read carefully enough or something, but I don't recall them stopping. They aren't mentioned during the meetings with Elayne, Moiraine's rescue, etc. Did they ever stop?

[gary0044187]

yeah when he took off his scarf and hat on the night of the fight with the gholam.

[andrewatk]

As soon as I read Verin's letter I wanted to punch mat...ugh.

 

I wanted to punch Verin. No wait, this is wot. Umm... spank her?

 

Verin's mistake was to ask Mat to promise to do whatever the letter told him to do. We all know that Mat is death on keeping promises, so he would naturally be wary of making a promise to do an unknown thing.

[Phoebe]

yeah when he took off his scarf and hat on the night of the fight with the gholam.

 

Oops! Heh, thanks for clearing that up :P now I feel silly.

[Xader]

...but where had the title prince of Ravens come from?"

 

Prince of Ravens is the title bestowed upon the husband of the Empress of Seanchan, may she live forever...

[blazetheearth]

yeah when he took off his scarf and hat on the night of the fight with the gholam.

 

Oops! Heh, thanks for clearing that up :P now I feel silly.

 

Actually, to be more specific, it was when he walked out of The Dusty Wheel, after putting on his hat and picking up his ashandari (basically making sure everyone in the bar knew who he really was). He drops the scarf and walks outside, then they stop. It was the night of the Gholam Fight though.

 

Mat pulled off his black scarf, leaving it on the floor. It had a hole in it now anyway. He stepped out into the night, and the moment he did, the dice stopped thundering in his head.

It was time to get to work.

[Ananta]

As soon as I read Verin's letter I wanted to punch mat...ugh.

 

I wanted to punch Verin. No wait, this is wot. Umm... spank her?

 

Verin's mistake was to ask Mat to promise to do whatever the letter told him to do. We all know that Mat is death on keeping promises, so he would naturally be wary of making a promise to do an unknown thing.

 

I'd like to believe that Verin made Mat swear that on purpose. Almost everything in WoT has happened for a reason that comes apparent later on. So I think Verin knew Mat wouldn't open the letter. The attack on Caemlyn had to happen, but also the band of the red hand had to be near it when it happened, for something to happen that effects the bigger picture.

[mossman87]

I see Rand's Taveren nature as being a little like the Oath's in some regards. If Rand really belived that someone had to die for him/the pattern to sucseed, then they would(whever through a grand series of events like Samuel or just falling down dead in the middle of a room)

 

if he didn't truely belive it NEEDED to happen it wouldn't.

 

Matt's is very differnt in the fact that it relies on random chance. If Matt was in the same circumstances as Rand(needing someone to died) they'd likely drown swallowing a mouthfull of wine or slipping in the jakes or something

 

We have yet to see what Perrin can really do yet barring him gathering the nobles and a few fights and the like(there is a lot more of Perrins Tavern nature than this but nothing as grand as what the other two do yet)

 

On a side note i'd like to see more about Matt reputaion. Rand hearing a few rumours and going "He knew about Lord of Battles of course and the Hanged man but where had the title prince of Ravens come from?"

 

May the rippings begin!!

 

There's something in Perrin's Taveren nature that makes people better fighters or something - we've had this much told us in ToM, and even as far back as TSR he's teaching people in the Two Rivers to fight at a fast pace

 

 

 

I don't think it's specific to Perrin. The Pattern needs the people around Rand, Mat, and Perrin prepared for the Last Battle, and as such they train faster because the Pattern wills it.

 

 

[Finnssss22]

I see Rand's Taveren nature as being a little like the Oath's in some regards. If Rand really belived that someone had to die for him/the pattern to sucseed, then they would(whever through a grand series of events like Samuel or just falling down dead in the middle of a room)

 

if he didn't truely belive it NEEDED to happen it wouldn't.

 

Matt's is very differnt in the fact that it relies on random chance. If Matt was in the same circumstances as Rand(needing someone to died) they'd likely drown swallowing a mouthfull of wine or slipping in the jakes or something

 

We have yet to see what Perrin can really do yet barring him gathering the nobles and a few fights and the like(there is a lot more of Perrins Tavern nature than this but nothing as grand as what the other two do yet)

 

On a side note i'd like to see more about Matt reputaion. Rand hearing a few rumours and going "He knew about Lord of Battles of course and the Hanged man but where had the title prince of Ravens come from?"

 

May the rippings begin!!

 

There's something in Perrin's Taveren nature that makes people better fighters or something - we've had this much told us in ToM, and even as far back as TSR he's teaching people in the Two Rivers to fight at a fast pace

 

 

 

I don't think it's specific to Perrin. The Pattern needs the people around Rand, Mat, and Perrin prepared for the Last Battle, and as such they train faster because the Pattern wills it.

 

Yep, it's about need but also it can only provide something that is actually possible no matter how remote. Unlike the DO who does the impossible because he is actually destroying the pattern.

Rand summed it up pretty good in Chpt 25 "Return to Bandar Eban"

 

 

...but where had the title prince of Ravens come from?"

 

Prince of Ravens is the title bestowed upon the husband of the Empress of Seanchan, may she live forever...

 

Unless I miss my guess it means Matt will rule/be in command of all property/da'covale owned by the Empress.

That includes almost all the Damane, almost all the Seekers and all of the human Deathwatch guard(the gardeners are apparently not considered property but that could also just be the regular ones, while the ones in the DWG could be property).

 

The only real question I have is whether "The Prince of the Ravens" itself is actually property of the Empress.

I have a funny feeling that it means he will be the highest of the low or the ultimate so'jhin.