Mat's Arc

[pattyruss]

Is it just me or does Mat have to do too much in aMoL?

 

1. I assume going back to Camelyn, to find it in ruins, or if he's there sooner, join the fighting.

 

2. If Moiraine is still with him, then I think he'll go with her to meet Rand. I think he'll meet him at least once before the final battle.(Perrin is already with Rand).

 

3. Find a way to, and contact Tuon. He won't simply march over and announce he's the prince of Ravens, that's not his style.

 

4. I think I read somewhere about him and Tuon going to the Seanchan continent to stabilize her rule there? not sure about this.

 

5.Convince everyone of his abilities as a general. Whatever else, I don't think they're simply gonna say, 'oh hey, you have all those memories of those battles? come and take command of the forces of light!' (I assume this will be done in some sort of battle,not on a small scale....maybe Camylin itself?)

 

6. Go to the white tower and take back the Horn of Valere...he gave a message to Joline and company for the Amrylin that he was coming (which was AWESOME)

 

7. COMMAND the army of the light with presumably Bashere and Rodel at his side...assuming none of them has fallen earlier in another battle....and kick some Trolloc ass in Shayol Ghul.

 

8. Keep an eye on Olver while he can doing all that other stuff....that kid is creepy...maybe not a sociopath, but still creepy sometimes.

 

My question...is it too much for him to do in one book?

 

Most of these could end up combined or take one chapter to deal with. Olver shouldn't be on there at all. He never takes up much room in the story.

 

He doesn't have to convince anyone of his ability to general. If Rand says he's in charge, he's in charge. The first time he took command he just did it and they followed a couple paragraphs later. The Seanchan are attacking the White Tower, and Mat needs the Horn which is still in the White Tower. A great opportunity to knock out two birds with one stone, if you ask me. While he's at it, he can bump into the der'sul'dam who will recognize him as the Prince of the Ravens, and ask to be Travelled to Tuon and have a talk with her. "I have the Horn of Valere, the Dragon Reborn wants to kneel to you at the Field of Merrilor, don't make me kidnap you again."

 

Obviously it won't happen that quick, but most of your list can be condensed.

 

 

I figured it was all gonna happen in combos.

Okay, if Rand says he's in charge, then he is. But After continuously seeing the theme of proving themselves to those who doubt you (Egwene) and fighting to take your place (Elayne), I don't think this will happen that easily. Will the great captains follow him simply because Rand says he's an excellent general? But I'm not that much concerned about that. We'll get to see plenty of bloodbath...Mat will most likely earn his respect.

btw,quite impressive how you condensed that list ;)

 

This is why AMoL will have as many pages as a dictionary.

[Annia]

I remember Tuon wondering if Matt would be a husband she didn't have to worry about plotting against her.

I'm thinking if she bonded him,she would know it completely and it could be the one thing that might change her outlook.

 

If a situation came up I can sort of see Elayne eyeing Mat speculatively and telling Tuon: "Well, we did manage to bond Min to Rand..."

So even if Tuon wouldn't do the channeling herself, she might still get to enjoy Mat's "charms".

 

Did anybody else find it significant how Tuon went so smoothly from: "I really need a new Truthspeaker" to "I wonder where that Matrim fellow is now?"

[Annia]

Y'know, I have to wonder why in the world Mat chose Noal as the third person. I understand that if he hadn't then everything probably wouldn't have turned out, but if I was Mat, I would've tried to get someone other than a gnarled old man. Like maybe an Asha'man to destroy the CRAP out of those damn snakes and foxes.

 

Mat doesn't know that saidin is clean. He still thinks Rand and every other male channeler is bug nuts. He's still incapable of seeing past his prejudice where anything and anyone concerned with channeling is concerned. Besides, Noal volunteered.

Doesn't he? Hmmm, my memory is pricking at me - I am sure one of the Asha'man mentions it to him, although Mat seemed less-than-convinced.

 

I could be wrong, however. A feel a re-read of the entire damned thing, soon :P.

 

Verin told him about it. And he was convinced. Shocked, but convinced.

That must be it. Thanks!

 

 

He must have been convinced since he told Moiraine about it without any "or so they say...".

[Annia]

Verin's letter seems like a wasted effort mostly because the damn shadowspawn were late. Verin did not know exactly when the attack would take place, only that the troops were already on their way. Verin assumed that they would reach Caemlyn within 30 days and therefore thought that she had secured help for it by making sure that Mat didn't leave. Tough luck that Mat left about a day before the attack (assuming that he didn't spend ages in the Tower).

[Yehosh]

I still want a chapter dedicated to a "War Council" of sorts where Mat, Bryne, Agelmar, Ituralde and Bashere discuss tactics and strategy for the last battle.

 

YES!!!

 

Could probably add Yamada or one of Tuon's general's but Mat replaces Pedron Nial as the 5th great captain. Ruarc will probably have to attend as well, otherwise Mat will have a lot of Toh and very little Ji :)

 

It was very nice seeing the interaction between Bashere and Ituralde, the mutual respect was clearly evident

[aynatal2000]

Why would Moridin go to the finns?

 

To retrieve Lanfear.

 

The destruction of the Tear doorway is interesting. Mesaana had tried to enter that storeroom and gave up because of how nastily Rand had trapped it. Seems unlikely that anyone entered that way.

 

Questions are: does a trap/ward against entry into the storeroom prevent exit from the storeroom? Could that gateway be destroyed entirely from the Finn's side? If so, how would whomever destroyed it get back out of Finnland?

If they are Forsaken they can get out the same way Mat did... through the wall.The Tower exists in Tel'aran'rhiod and the Forsaken travel all through there.What is more interesting is the destruction of the Tear doorway. Was this a wish of Rand's or Moiraine's? Or was this the result of Mat and Rand having been in at the same time? There was smoke and fire present when Rand came out to a surprised Mat.It could be Moraine's wish, to ensure that no one can anticipate/interfere in Rand's plans or it could be Rand's after realizing that Mat went through both Portals - Tear and Rhuidean and came out a great asset... and a wild card.Did Rand go through twice... or did he have Narishma destroy the Tear gate when he sent him for Callandor?; by that I mean that the removal of the sword set off the destruction of the doorway through his wards, and Rand set it up that way.

[didymos]

If they are Forsaken they can get out the same way Mat did... through the wall.

 

What, they just happen to have some ashandarei handy? Can't be as simple as a bronze knife either. That only gets you in. But, OK: is it possible they have the knowledge to make it work anyway? Sure, it's possible. We have zero reason to believe it's particularly probable, though.

 

The Tower exists in Tel'aran'rhiod and the Forsaken travel all through there.

 

And Birgitte told Perrin that getting out of 'Finnland by way of T'A'R is even harder than normal. Maybe it's easier if you don't enter from T'A'R, but I see no reason to believe that's the case.

[smileyman]

 

4. I think I read somewhere about him and Tuon going to the Seanchan continent to stabilize her rule there? not sure about this.

 

We won't see any more of the Seanchan mainland in this series. This from a signing Q&A from some time ago.

 

5.Convince everyone of his abilities as a general. Whatever else, I don't think they're simply gonna say, 'oh hey, you have all those memories of those battles? come and take command of the forces of light!' (I assume this will be done in some sort of battle,not on a small scale....maybe Camylin itself?)

 

 

7. COMMAND the army of the light with presumably Bashere and Rodel at his side...assuming none of them has fallen earlier in another battle....and kick some Trolloc ass in Shayol Ghul.

 

Why the assumption that tis' going to be Mat in charge of all the armies? Mat's done ok with the Band, but he's never planned a campaign and he's never commanded armies the size of the ones that will be there. There are far more respected generals there (Iturlade, Bashere, Bryne), and any one of those will do a great job of it. I'll be very surprised if we Mat being the Commander-in-Chief of the Combined Armies of the Light (CAL for short). It'll have to be one of the Great Captains who are still kicking around, or Rand himself (though presumably he'll be occupied elsewhere).

[Durinax]

rand will be the token 'commander in chief' I say token because he will be off doing something more important.

 

I think that before rand leaves he will delegate armies to each great captain and they will have to work out how things go between them. and if rand needs something important he can commandeer any army

[WhiteJoker]

Why the assumption that tis' going to be Mat in charge of all the armies? Mat's done ok with the Band, but he's never planned a campaign and he's never commanded armies the size of the ones that will be there. There are far more respected generals there (Iturlade, Bashere, Bryne), and any one of those will do a great job of it. I'll be very surprised if we Mat being the Commander-in-Chief of the Combined Armies of the Light (CAL for short). It'll have to be one of the Great Captains who are still kicking around, or Rand himself (though presumably he'll be occupied elsewhere).

The memories in his head encompass multiple lifetimes, many of which were military commanders and geniuses of their time. Mat himself has noted that he has trouble telling their memories apart from his own now, plus his recollection of the lives in his head is perfect since it's artificial; i.e. it doesn't require "processing time" for him to see a situation and instinctively pull up similar instances from his memories along with counters and ideas which the memories in his head may have considered. If he encounters a completely new situation then yes, he needs time to plan it out as well, however Mat knows how to run an army for long and short campaigns because the memories in his head do.

 

That said, considering the size of the coalition along with the fact that the entire blightborder is erupting, it's unlikely that every single force is going to end up facing the same warfront. Also, since a lot of time has been spent developing Perrin as a leader of his own coalition army, it's unlikely they're going to wipe that away by putting Mat in charge of all battle logistics. Quite likely the forces will be divided up to deal with key issues; most probably Mat will end up in charge of one of those issues though I'd say he's likely going to deal with it just with the Band. Considering that the Band now has access to cannon technology, they're easily a match for a conventional force twice their size if not more especially considering they were already that good with just the crossbows. I think, at the most, Mat might get command of Elayne's forces too, though I'm not sold on that since Bridgette does have the same perfect recall and countless lives lived, despite many of them likely not being in similar leadership positions: I'm certain that a character like Bridgette, despite not being in the position, has seen enough to pick up a decent command of large force tactics. I also doubt Mat would care for leadership of those forces since the Cairhiens aren't organized as a united fighting force and neither are Andorian forces since their standing army is largely composed of mercenary companies.

[Durinax]

does mat have memories of campaigns? from everything I recall he only has memories of individual battles, not of the planning of long campaigns or their logistics.

 

if anything mat will be a field commander, with perrin being the overall commander since we have seen his foresight and ability to take suggestions, and deploy supplies well.

[carridin1]

Alright, I've seen a few people ask about Lanfear's death...so I'm gonna take a crack at it.

 

Moiraine explains how Lanfear died. The Finns fed on her Power too fast and caused her to die (Moirain says the Finns claimed this, so they could be lying). This is why Moiraine is weaker in the power, the Finns ate it. This probably explains why she has lesser power now after transmigrating souls. This, to me at least, probably means that when "the man" came to rescue Lanfear, she was probably dead already. the man could is any number of possibilities, but probably is Moridin or was sent by him.

At the very least, it explains why they are weaker in the Power.

 

Moiraine also suggested that the Eelfinn were lying about that to make her afraid. If Lanfear had died, the DO would know and no rescue would have been needed; whether or he would have transmigrated her soul is a separate question.

 

Lanfear either survived *Finnland and was transmigrated later for reason... or she received a different body as a result of her demands of the Eelfinn. I tend to think it was the second option, and that her new (or changed) body was a creative interpretation of a wish.

 

Speculation time

 

So what did she wish for? This is Lanfear, so one obvious thing is: "I want Lews Therin to love me again."

 

It would take more than a body swap, of course, but not recognizing her is what drew Rand to Cyndane in his dream. Seeing Lanfear there would not have evoked that response. Getting close allowed him to 'see her soul' and remember his one-time love for her.

 

-- dwn

I always assumed that Lanfear never died at all. Notice when she met Alivia in battle, Lanfear thought to herself that Alivia was “More powerful than I was before being held prisoner by the Ailfinn. That should be impossible.” (Or something close to that, I’m going on memory.)

 

Now, you’d think dying and being reborn in a new body would stand out in your mind. You’d see that as the key experience beyond the doorframe, not just being held prisoner before dying. It seems curious that she did not frame the thought as “before I died and was reborn.”

 

Also, the “Impossible” comment is strange. Why would that be impossible?

 

I think Lanfear went through the doorway some time in the age of legends. I think her wishes were “I want to be super beautiful, I want to be the most powerful female channeler in the world, and (perhaps) I want Lews Therin to fall in love with me.” When Lanfear then fell into their clutches again, the snakes and foxes saw no reason to go on honoring her previous wishes.

 

So, she reverted to her original appearance (cute, but not stunning) and power level (powerful, but not overwhelming) before someone came and sprung her. I think she assumed it was impossible for Alivia to be more powerful, because Lanfear was the most powerful gal in the AoL, and none of these “half-trained girls” could top that.

[Duskfire]

Why the assumption that tis' going to be Mat in charge of all the armies? Mat's done ok with the Band, but he's never planned a campaign and he's never commanded armies the size of the ones that will be there. There are far more respected generals there (Iturlade, Bashere, Bryne), and any one of those will do a great job of it. I'll be very surprised if we Mat being the Commander-in-Chief of the Combined Armies of the Light (CAL for short). It'll have to be one of the Great Captains who are still kicking around, or Rand himself (though presumably he'll be occupied elsewhere).

 

What Mat did against the Seanchan was a campaign; it wasn't something that took two days to do. Rodel even did something similiar, yet Mat did it about a thousand times better (slightly different circumstances, but still.) Not to mention, the majority of Mats memories seem to come from the Hawkwing era, where everyone and his dog had a massive army. Look at how quickly he came to a stragedy against the Shaido Aiel, and his planning against Illian included massive armies. Mat would be perfectly capable of handling a big army. I would say he actually has more experience in the matter then any of the Great captains (after all, those are still his memories.)

[David Selig]

Now that Rand has gotten all of LTT's memories, he would be a great military commander in his own right.

[anthony187]

Alright, I've seen a few people ask about Lanfear's death...so I'm gonna take a crack at it.

 

Moiraine explains how Lanfear died. The Finns fed on her Power too fast and caused her to die (Moirain says the Finns claimed this, so they could be lying). This is why Moiraine is weaker in the power, the Finns ate it. This probably explains why she has lesser power now after transmigrating souls. This, to me at least, probably means that when "the man" came to rescue Lanfear, she was probably dead already. the man could is any number of possibilities, but probably is Moridin or was sent by him.

At the very least, it explains why they are weaker in the Power.

 

Moiraine also suggested that the Eelfinn were lying about that to make her afraid. If Lanfear had died, the DO would know and no rescue would have been needed; whether or he would have transmigrated her soul is a separate question.

 

Lanfear either survived *Finnland and was transmigrated later for reason... or she received a different body as a result of her demands of the Eelfinn. I tend to think it was the second option, and that her new (or changed) body was a creative interpretation of a wish.

 

Speculation time

 

So what did she wish for? This is Lanfear, so one obvious thing is: "I want Lews Therin to love me again."

 

It would take more than a body swap, of course, but not recognizing her is what drew Rand to Cyndane in his dream. Seeing Lanfear there would not have evoked that response. Getting close allowed him to 'see her soul' and remember his one-time love for her.

 

-- dwn

I always assumed that Lanfear never died at all. Notice when she met Alivia in battle, Lanfear thought to herself that Alivia was “More powerful than I was before being held prisoner by the Ailfinn. That should be impossible.” (Or something close to that, I’m going on memory.)

 

Now, you’d think dying and being reborn in a new body would stand out in your mind. You’d see that as the key experience beyond the doorframe, not just being held prisoner before dying. It seems curious that she did not frame the thought as “before I died and was reborn.”

 

Also, the “Impossible” comment is strange. Why would that be impossible?

 

I think Lanfear went through the doorway some time in the age of legends. I think her wishes were “I want to be super beautiful, I want to be the most powerful female channeler in the world, and (perhaps) I want Lews Therin to fall in love with me.” When Lanfear then fell into their clutches again, the snakes and foxes saw no reason to go on honoring her previous wishes.

 

So, she reverted to her original appearance (cute, but not stunning) and power level (powerful, but not overwhelming) before someone came and sprung her. I think she assumed it was impossible for Alivia to be more powerful, because Lanfear was the most powerful gal in the AoL, and none of these “half-trained girls” could top that.

 

 

I don't think so. Mo said that they both got there wishes.

[Sharaman]

Son of Battles wrote the ultimate manual of strategy.

But being a great military commander in an alliance is also a political thing.

They sorted it during the Aiel War by using rotating commands which works horribly in practice.

Here figuring out command structure will be interesting.

[NetSlider]

Well, I don't see how it will be hard to figure it out. We know that all four remaining great Captains are already have their hands full. The one with borderlanders will probably will oversee the battle that Lan's in. Which means all of them will be already busy. That leaves Mat. I think Mat will be completely in charge via Seanchen requirement - Fortuona will demand that he is, especially if Rand will not kneel to her (which I hope he won't, those people are too full of themselves and they need a lesson that they are not always right).

[waffle]

There were two things i hated in this book. Elayne´s politics chapters and The Band being employed by her. They´re supposed to become legendary heroes not some queenies toy :(

[Nae Bliss]

I did assume it was Moridin, but if Moridin *did* go to the Tower to get Cyndane/Lanfear, what price did he pay?

 

On the other hand, he probably spent 3,000 years figuring out how to beat snakes and ladders.

 

Well, the finns seem to have a liking for objects of the OP, of which Moridin appears to have a considerable collection. Or, he paid them with a sack of babies.

Win.

[Durinax]

There were two things i hated in this book. Elayne´s politics chapters and The Band being employed by her. They´re supposed to become legendary heroes not some queenies toy :(

makes sense for them to be sponsored by the Andoran crown for a while

 

it allows the construction of dragons, steady pay, and not to mention lots of boozes for the troops. And it also allows Mat to pursue his DR responsibilities wihtout dragging an army behind him

[dwn]

There were two things i hated in this book. Elayne´s politics chapters and The Band being employed by her. They´re supposed to become legendary heroes not some queenies toy :(

 

As I recall, the original Band of the Red Hand was an elite force attached to Manetheren. Elayne's moving toward a permanent standing army, so having the Queen's Guards and BotRH as the core of that makes good sense for her and Mat. Standing crown/state armies were one of the big things that ended feudalism.

 

This is speculation, but I felt that a few things in ToM hinted towards Tuon not remaining empress for the long haul (I'm ignoring Aviendha's vision quest for now). First there's the whole sul'dam can channel issue, which would definitely cause her problems. Second is Mat's increasing ties to Andor, which is going to be a huge front should the Seanchan try to expand. Third, despite his One Power paranoia, Mat isn't likely to ever accept leashing damane. Fourth is that General Galgan's imperial ambitions keep coming up.

 

In short, Mat is likely to become a fairly powerful figure in Andor/Cairhien in his own right, and Tuon's position has many small cracks in it.

 

-- dwn

[smileyman]

Why the assumption that tis' going to be Mat in charge of all the armies? Mat's done ok with the Band, but he's never planned a campaign and he's never commanded armies the size of the ones that will be there. There are far more respected generals there (Iturlade, Bashere, Bryne), and any one of those will do a great job of it. I'll be very surprised if we Mat being the Commander-in-Chief of the Combined Armies of the Light (CAL for short). It'll have to be one of the Great Captains who are still kicking around, or Rand himself (though presumably he'll be occupied elsewhere).

The memories in his head encompass multiple lifetimes, many of which were military commanders and geniuses of their time. Mat himself has noted that he has trouble telling their memories apart from his own now, plus his recollection of the lives in his head is perfect since it's artificial; i.e. it doesn't require "processing time" for him to see a situation and instinctively pull up similar instances from his memories along with counters and ideas which the memories in his head may have considered. If he encounters a completely new situation then yes, he needs time to plan it out as well, however Mat knows how to run an army for long and short campaigns because the memories in his head do.

 

That said, considering the size of the coalition along with the fact that the entire blightborder is erupting, it's unlikely that every single force is going to end up facing the same warfront. Also, since a lot of time has been spent developing Perrin as a leader of his own coalition army, it's unlikely they're going to wipe that away by putting Mat in charge of all battle logistics. Quite likely the forces will be divided up to deal with key issues; most probably Mat will end up in charge of one of those issues though I'd say he's likely going to deal with it just with the Band. Considering that the Band now has access to cannon technology, they're easily a match for a conventional force twice their size if not more especially considering they were already that good with just the crossbows. I think, at the most, Mat might get command of Elayne's forces too, though I'm not sold on that since Bridgette does have the same perfect recall and countless lives lived, despite many of them likely not being in similar leadership positions: I'm certain that a character like Bridgette, despite not being in the position, has seen enough to pick up a decent command of large force tactics. I also doubt Mat would care for leadership of those forces since the Cairhiens aren't organized as a united fighting force and neither are Andorian forces since their standing army is largely composed of mercenary companies.

 

I actually think that it's far more likely that both Perrin and Mat will be with Rand whenever he faces the DO, leaving command of their respective armies to their subordinates. I think they'll both have to be their--the whole tripod comment from the very beginning of the series, Min's viewings, the beating over the head with the color swirls. I don't think it'll be enough for them to be simply commanding armies in the field--any general can do that.

 

I also want to point out that each of the three ta'veren now has a magical weapon. Rand's got Callandor as well as his flame sword as well as Justice. Mat has the Ashandarei, and Perrin has the hammer. I don't think that's coincidence.

[Crossroad]

How about this Callandor to break the old seals, Mah'alleinir for creating new seals, the Ashandarei as the key to lock the prison.

[Haran]

There were two things i hated in this book. Elayne´s politics chapters and The Band being employed by her. They´re supposed to become legendary heroes not some queenies toy :(

 

As I recall, the original Band of the Red Hand was an elite force attached to Manetheren. Elayne's moving toward a permanent standing army, so having the Queen's Guards and BotRH as the core of that makes good sense for her and Mat. Standing crown/state armies were one of the big things that ended feudalism.

 

This is speculation, but I felt that a few things in ToM hinted towards Tuon not remaining empress for the long haul (I'm ignoring Aviendha's vision quest for now). First there's the whole sul'dam can channel issue, which would definitely cause her problems. Second is Mat's increasing ties to Andor, which is going to be a huge front should the Seanchan try to expand. Third, despite his One Power paranoia, Mat isn't likely to ever accept leashing damane. Fourth is that General Galgan's imperial ambitions keep coming up.

 

In short, Mat is likely to become a fairly powerful figure in Andor/Cairhien in his own right, and Tuon's position has many small cracks in it.

 

-- dwn

 

Yeah, I somehow see Mat as Tuons only option for reconquering the Seanchean empire.

[didymos]

How about this Callandor to break the old seals, Mah'alleinir for creating new seals, the Ashandarei as the key to lock the prison.

 

Um, the seals on the DO's prison? No need for Callandor. Those things are ridiculously fragile at this point. As for the rest...I'm going to assume the smiley there means this is just a joke.