The Black Tower

[TheAngryDruid]

I am almost 100 percent sure that RJ said Taim = Taim.

I don't recall any such quote. A shame, as it would have been very helpful.

 

Regarding Mr. Ares, lets just say we disagree. Taim is Moridin. He definitely stands the way Rand does, he moves with near a Warders grace, despite having said he hates the sword.

Because Warders are the only people who can be graceful?

And you still haven't addressed the issue with the sigil (same as Be'lal's and Sammael's).

Yes, I have. He shares a sigil with two guys who aren't Moridin, therefore he is Moridin isn't logical. He has his sigil gilded, Sammael and Be'lal didn't, therefore he stands higher runs into the problem of us having no evidence that either Be'lal or Sammael stood higher than the other, despite one using steel and one using silver.

Or the fact that he radiates a dark aura as far back as Winter's Heart (TP usage).

Well, yes I did. Even if it was TP usage, all it means is that Taim was granted the use of it. We know that is well within Shai'tan's power. It being granted to Graendal weakens the case as it is not restricted purely to the Nae'blis.

 

Mesanna was Danelle. Graendal killed Asmodean. Moiraine is back. Mat gave up his eye. Cyndane is Lanfear. And Weiramon was a DF. Noal was Farstrider. Galad and Berelain are in love. Setalle Anan was the woman who is no more. And Taim is Moridin. Sometimes a duck is a duck.

But not everything with two legs, a beak and feathers is a duck, which is what you're claiming. Especially when this duck doesn't quack like Moridin. I've yet to see a decent counter to the different orders in WH.

 

 

I could also offer an interesting point for those who believe Taim is just a lacky. Apparently in a Q & A with RJ someone asked if Weaves of the OP could be learned from a book, (I'm assuming they meant a old aes sedai text book with diagrams)

RJ answered: oh hehe that's a RAFO!

It seems that Moiraine might have done so with balefire, and Egwene appears to have pieced together cuendillar from descriptions Moghedien gave of the weave.

 

It's weird how everyone assumes that the stronger you are the bigger your Gateway, Androl makes massive Gateways and teeny tiny ones but can barely channel a candle flame.

Well, a fairly solid assumption before this book - aside from Avi (who was using a second method, as she forgot the one she originally used in FoH), Gateways always appeared to be larger for stronger channelers. Androl is the only exception we have seen. Contrast with Healing, where strength in the power and strength of Talent are quite different, and stated so numerous times.

 

I will add another argument against this whole Taim=Moridin theory: In a Graendal POV in tGS when she is meeting with Moridin (I believe the same one where Demondred says My rule is secure) she mentions that Moridin spends pretty much all of his time in the Blight marshalling the Shadow's forces there. This would not seem to leave him a whole lot of time to perform all of Taim's activities (and Taim appears to be keeping pretty busy). It makes much more sense for him to delegate those responsibilities to a trusted minion.

 

The time thing is the best argument against it, though it certainly isn't impossible to overcome (vacuoles, Portal Stones, etc). And Taim goes on lots of recruiting trips for the DR, and Graendal doesn't spend much time in the blight checking on Moridin, but in Arad Doman and going about her own business. The biggest problem with it is that I certainly don't see any such quote from Graendal in the tGS prologue. Come back with chapter and verse, and I'll give it more thought. And even if it was true (which I see no evidence of), it would only be true for the brief period of the tGS novel. Hardly a long time.

 

Again, the conflicting orders thing is also good evidence against, but it can be overcome.

 

But most of the stuff from Mark Grayson misses the point entirely.

 

1) He is wrong on the RJ quote.

 

2) You missed the whole point: it isn't just a Warder's grace, but the sense of being a Warder referred to 100 times in the series from a man who isn't in any way martial (he hates the sword). Why the sudden switch, and why not perceived until AFTER aCoS. He didn't have it in LoC or earlier. The point isn't that he's graceful/not, it's that he not approximating a Warder. That isn't a sense you get from others, say Berelain or Faile, who are also graceful. Or even an accomplished soldier, like Dobraine. Throw in the fact that he is standing with one arm behind his back (like Rand) and we know Moridin has adopted some of Rand's mannerisms/pain with his rubbing of his arm (where Rand lost his hand) in tGS prologue. It seems pretty clear that if Taim isn't Moridin, at least RJ and BS are trying to make us think he is.

 

3) Sigil. Again, you miss the point. The others with the Sigil are Forsaken. And steel (Sammael) would be below silver (Be'lal). No non-Forsaken has ever displayed that Sigil. We know he isn't Demadred (he doesn't recognize Flinn), and the only other male Forsaken alive is Moridin. The gold only reinforces it. Do I need to draw a logic tree for you? You putting words into my mouth or setting up straw men that have nothing to do with my argument means nothing.

 

4) TP. Again, we've never seen a non-Forsaken (other than Rand) use the TP. Or show the aura. And Taim was showing it long before Graendal was granted permission. The only other person at the time Taim manifested the aura was Moridin. The odds the DO would give that to a non-Chosen 3rd ager pupil of Demandred (but not Demandred himself) are just so small it isn't even worth mentioning. Not impossible, but you don's see Alviarin running around using the TP, do you?

[Zentari]

In a recent book egwene dreamed or foretold a cleansing of the black tower by AS.

When did THAT happen ?

don't have the books on me, but I just googled it. Elaida fortold that "The Black Tower will be rent in blood and fire, and sisters will walk its grounds." This was from Crown of Swords.

 

Sisters walking its grounds is already fulfilled, but the rent in blood and fire says battle. I take this to mean either rand leads the combined channeler forces he meets at the fields or that Logain/Egwene/both lead an assault against Taim there.

It does not however foretell the cleansing of the tower by AS, merely that sisters will walk the tower and even if you argue that the AS will help, I doubt it will be an official WT thing.Most likely , the bonded AS will help.

[Bob T Dwarf]

4) TP. Again, we've never seen a non-Forsaken (other than Rand) use the TP. Or show the aura. And Taim was showing it long before Graendal was granted permission. The only other person at the time Taim manifested the aura was Moridin. The odds the DO would give that to a non-Chosen 3rd ager pupil of Demandred (but not Demandred himself) are just so small it isn't even worth mentioning. Not impossible, but you don's see Alviarin running around using the TP, do you?

 

I must have missed this famous "aura" of which you speak. Could you refer me to where a "True Power aura" appears in the series?

[capuga]

But most of the stuff from Mark Grayson misses the point entirely.

 

Actually most of the argument was from Mr Ares, but I mostly agree with him on this theory so I will pick it up.

 

1) He is wrong on the RJ quote.

 

I don't believe I am wrong. Unfortunately, I don't have the books with me and I'm not good with the online resources but I still believe that Graendal thought Moridin spent most of his time in the Blight. Perhaps she was wrong but its still something to consider.

 

2) You missed the whole point: it isn't just a Warder's grace, but the sense of being a Warder referred to 100 times in the series from a man who isn't in any way martial (he hates the sword). Why the sudden switch, and why not perceived until AFTER aCoS. He didn't have it in LoC or earlier. The point isn't that he's graceful/not, it's that he not approximating a Warder. That isn't a sense you get from others, say Berelain or Faile, who are also graceful. Or even an accomplished soldier, like Dobraine. Throw in the fact that he is standing with one arm behind his back (like Rand) and we know Moridin has adopted some of Rand's mannerisms/pain with his rubbing of his arm (where Rand lost his hand) in tGS prologue. It seems pretty clear that if Taim isn't Moridin, at least RJ and BS are trying to make us think he is.

 

I always took the Warders grace just to mean that the person knew they were dangerous and confident and carried themselves that way. I don't think that it necessarily has to do with martial skills (there also isn't any evidence that I remember that shows that Moridin is any good with a sword). I remember Moridin rubbing his left hand but I don't remember Taim with any overtly Rand-like physical mannerisms. Maybe I just didn't notice but perhaps if you are any better than me with looking up quotes you could include some?

 

3) Sigil. Again, you miss the point. The others with the Sigil are Forsaken. And steel (Sammael) would be below silver (Be'lal). No non-Forsaken has ever displayed that Sigil. We know he isn't Demadred (he doesn't recognize Flinn), and the only other male Forsaken alive is Moridin. The gold only reinforces it. Do I need to draw a logic tree for you? You putting words into my mouth or setting up straw men that have nothing to do with my argument means nothing.

 

We haven't seen any evidence that the color gilding has anything to do with rank so there is no reason to believe that gold in the sigil indicates a higher rank than Sammael or Be'lal. And the fact that 3 Forsaken and not just Moridin have used this sigil indicates to me that it is not a personal sigil but just one that the Shadow in general use. Taim seems to have achieved a high placement in the Shadow so its entirely reasonable that he gets to display this sigil.

 

4) TP. Again, we've never seen a non-Forsaken (other than Rand) use the TP. Or show the aura. And Taim was showing it long before Graendal was granted permission. The only other person at the time Taim manifested the aura was Moridin. The odds the DO would give that to a non-Chosen 3rd ager pupil of Demandred (but not Demandred himself) are just so small it isn't even worth mentioning. Not impossible, but you don's see Alviarin running around using the TP, do you?

 

We have no way to be sure that Taim uses the TP. An appearent dark aura doesn't necessarily mean that Taim was using the TP. I believe the POV was from Elayne and she thinks he's a scary, creepy dude. The dark aura could just be her impression of the man.

 

Like Mr Ares said earlier, if you assume that Taim is a current age darkfriend trained by a Forsaken (likely Ishy before tEotW) all of the evidence that Taim is Moridin is easily explained. It also avoids all of the issues that the Taim=Moridin theory has such as:

- Conflicting orders (with no determinable reason) to the renegade Asha'man in WH.

- The differences in physical appearance where it seems Rand has had enough contact with Taim to mess up a MoM.

- Moridin having enough time to perform his duties as Nae'blis and Taim's duties as M'hael.

- The fact that Rand only sees Moridin's face through his connection with Moridin when he seizes Saidin. Wouldn't he have seen Taim's face (Moridin while in disguise) at least a time or two if he was spending that much time disguised as Taim?

[smileyman]

Looking at it the other way around - Androl may actually be the male equivalent of a blocked wilder.

He's brilliant with Gates - ergo, he should be very strong. But he can barely channel otherwise.

That suggests a possible block? We know he had a block unless he was holding onto leather straps and Taim thrashed him till he channeled without it.

Maybe Taim didn't thrash him enough?

There's also a funny back story to the guy so much so, he's almost a Farstrider in terms of the places he's been and things he's done.

 

An elegant solution that explains his skill with Gateways, yet his relative lack of power in other things. I like it.

[kes]

Why does Taim have to be anyone besides a new dreadlord? The only reason people care about Demandred is because we have gotten numerous hints he is out there imitating someone. We have never gotten any indication that Moridin likes to work behind the scenes that way.

[WhiteJoker]

Why does Taim have to be anyone besides a new dreadlord? The only reason people care about Demandred is because we have gotten numerous hints he is out there imitating someone. We have never gotten any indication that Moridin likes to work behind the scenes that way.

Moridin is Ishamael and Ishamael's MO throughout the ages has been entirely that.

 

By-the-by, I don't think Taim is Moridin, I'm just pointing out the flaw in that statement.

[gary0044187]

why can't taim simply be ishidin's favored disciple? I like the idea of Taim as moridin but am uncertain of it, dude spends way too much time at the tower and not building forces in the blight.

 

Zentari- I agree with you there, that could be a third option. Another is that no major light character comes to help out and the fire and blood goes strongly in the shadow's favor there just before the last battle.

[Danvighar]

As to Tarna and Mezor:

13x13 seems odd, if only for the need for Myrddraal - distance could cover the sensation, I suppose, or the natural paranoia every non-DF has running all the time at the BT might swamp any ability that Channelers have to sense Shadowspawn. Or they might be warded.

 

I must admit, my initial reading of the scenes had me thinking that Tarna was screaming for help inside and noone could see it through whatever was being used on her. And yet, on re-reading the passage, that does not actually seem to be the case.

 

I also had the thought - this is a silly thought, now that I've done the research - that perhaps this is zomara wearing Tarna and Mezor suits. Y'know, maybe once they're crammed into someone else, metaphysically speaking, they stop being merely the ultimate servant.

 

With regards to Androl - heh, is Androl related to "Master Andra"? Anyway, his scenes make clear (to me) that Talents aren't exactly what most people seem to have been thinking so far. To me it seems clear now that Travelling* for example, works like this:

1) Anyone can learn "weave Spirit (with Fire, if you're using saidin) in this way".

2) If you are of a certain minimal strength, the gateway can 'snap into place'. If you are not, the weaves cannot form (see 4)

3) The size of gateway you can make, and possibly your ability to complete the gateway so that it snaps open, may depend on your strength in Spirit. Strength in one of the Five Powers may actually mean several sub-areas - raw 'this is how much Spirit I can channel at once', 'these are how many separate flows of Spirit I can mantain', 'this is how small/precise of a flow I can manipulate', etc.

4) 2, and most or all of 3, are negated if you have a (super-)Talent for Travelling. There is Travelling, and then there is having the Talent for Travelling.

 

With all that said, I see two or three possibilities:

1) The term "Talent" maybe used to mean "ability all out of proportion to what he should be able to do", and has become muddled... or vice versa, the AoLers didn't study Talents, just their results, so never had a clear and proper definition themselves. Either way, '(limited or private) knowledge' was conflated with 'special ability'.

2) People (characters in the books - specifically, I'm thinking Verin) misinterpreted what they saw: Rand didn't 'rediscover the lost Talent of Travelling'; (one of) his Talent(s) is, roughly, "Rediscovering Weaves", and Travelling happens to be one of those weaves he rediscovered.

3) There are two or more types of Talent: The 'common' version, 'can Travel', where some people might not be able to get it to work regardless of strength, which may also determine your upper limit on gateway size (as opposed to it being determined by your strength in Spirit or something), and the 'noble' version, 'super-cable with Travelling', such as Androl demonstrates.

4) Androl is another case of "something seemingly new", like wolfbrothers and Healing Severing.

 

For those of you saying, 'TL;DR' - I think that "knowledge of Travelling" is distinct from "the Talent of Travelling", and Androl has the latter, while most characters have the former. But there are several possibilities that, while requiring more assumptions, are still reasonable alternatives.

[Kidicaris]

That's because that's how it actually works for nearly all channelers.

 

I seem to remember that Rand thought in one of the early books (TFoH?) that he could only make gateways a certain maximum size, no matter how much power he poured into them.

Logically, strength in Spirit should probably play a role in the sizes of the gateways that a channeler can make.

 

Oh, yeah. I'd forgotten about that. Well, strength still determines gateway size until the individual maximum is reached.

 

ETA: BTW, gateways (or at least male ones) are more than just Spirit. In KoD, we learn they're made of Spirit and Fire. Throw in some Earth woven in the proper fashion, and you get Deathgates. But still, the suggestion is that they're mostly Spirit, so yeah: that should be the main determinant.

 

Oh slam, I totally did not know this. Thanks for the facts D.

[Mr Ares]

And Taim is Moridin. Sometimes a duck is a duck.

NO if you're going to claim a duck is just a duck ( or a cigar is just a cigar ) then you would have to say that Taim = Taim and Moridin = Moridin.

 

And, if you're going to say that Taim = Moridin than you're saying sometimes a duck is really a crane.

While I see what you are saying, you miss the point. Everything we see about Taim points to him being a 2nd Ager, not a 3rd ager, and one of the Forsaken. He uses Forsaken sigils of a higher rank than Be'lal or Sammael. He flies Moridin's colors. He has access to instructions given only to Chosen. He manifests a TP aura when only Moridin had access to the TP. He uses 2nd age speech patterns. He has access to ter'angreal that only Moridin/Graendal have access to (the DO's favored pair). He suddenly is standing like Rand and assuming a warder's grace and gait, even though we know he disdains the sword.

You make assumptions and call them facts. In fact, Taim is mysterious, but there is more to suggest him being Taim than him being Moridin. He uses a sigil Moridin doesn't, which you interpret to mean he is of higher rank due to the gilding, he wears Moridin's colours but that doesn't mean he is Moridin, he has access to instructions given only to the Chosen and those the Chosen passed them on to (Suroth was told to let the Lord of Chaos rule. I'm glad we've established her Chosen-hood), he manifests a dark aura you interpret as a TP aura, he uses a phrase previously used a second-ager, one suspected of having taught Taim (likewise explaining the colours), he has access to a ter'angreal that Moridin had two of and gave to those serving him, and he has been seen standing with one arm behind his back. Wow. How very compelling. You're going to need a fair bit more than that to really win people over, you know, especially given the points against.

 

Sorry. Moridin = Taim = Duck. You have to twist yourself in knots to not see it.

Well, if it walks like a pigeon, looks like a pigeon and coos like a pigeon, I suppose it's only reasonable to call it a duck.

 

Give me a coherent explanation for all the traits we KNOW of instead of picking some other info from the series and saying that disproves the idea.

We have. You've ignored it. Give an explanation for the different orders, or him spending most of his time rallying the Shadow's forces and not in the BT, or them looking different but Rand seeing Moridin in his mind and never Taim.

 

I am almost 100 percent sure that RJ said Taim = Taim.

I don't recall any such quote. A shame, as it would have been very helpful.

 

Regarding Mr. Ares, lets just say we disagree. Taim is Moridin. He definitely stands the way Rand does, he moves with near a Warders grace, despite having said he hates the sword.

Because Warders are the only people who can be graceful?

And you still haven't addressed the issue with the sigil (same as Be'lal's and Sammael's).

Yes, I have. He shares a sigil with two guys who aren't Moridin, therefore he is Moridin isn't logical. He has his sigil gilded, Sammael and Be'lal didn't, therefore he stands higher runs into the problem of us having no evidence that either Be'lal or Sammael stood higher than the other, despite one using steel and one using silver.

Or the fact that he radiates a dark aura as far back as Winter's Heart (TP usage).

Well, yes I did. Even if it was TP usage, all it means is that Taim was granted the use of it. We know that is well within Shai'tan's power. It being granted to Graendal weakens the case as it is not restricted purely to the Nae'blis.

 

Mesanna was Danelle. Graendal killed Asmodean. Moiraine is back. Mat gave up his eye. Cyndane is Lanfear. And Weiramon was a DF. Noal was Farstrider. Galad and Berelain are in love. Setalle Anan was the woman who is no more. And Taim is Moridin. Sometimes a duck is a duck.

But not everything with two legs, a beak and feathers is a duck, which is what you're claiming. Especially when this duck doesn't quack like Moridin. I've yet to see a decent counter to the different orders in WH.

 

 

I could also offer an interesting point for those who believe Taim is just a lacky. Apparently in a Q & A with RJ someone asked if Weaves of the OP could be learned from a book, (I'm assuming they meant a old aes sedai text book with diagrams)

RJ answered: oh hehe that's a RAFO!

It seems that Moiraine might have done so with balefire, and Egwene appears to have pieced together cuendillar from descriptions Moghedien gave of the weave.

 

It's weird how everyone assumes that the stronger you are the bigger your Gateway, Androl makes massive Gateways and teeny tiny ones but can barely channel a candle flame.

Well, a fairly solid assumption before this book - aside from Avi (who was using a second method, as she forgot the one she originally used in FoH), Gateways always appeared to be larger for stronger channelers. Androl is the only exception we have seen. Contrast with Healing, where strength in the power and strength of Talent are quite different, and stated so numerous times.

 

I will add another argument against this whole Taim=Moridin theory: In a Graendal POV in tGS when she is meeting with Moridin (I believe the same one where Demondred says My rule is secure) she mentions that Moridin spends pretty much all of his time in the Blight marshalling the Shadow's forces there. This would not seem to leave him a whole lot of time to perform all of Taim's activities (and Taim appears to be keeping pretty busy). It makes much more sense for him to delegate those responsibilities to a trusted minion.

The time thing is the best argument against it, though it certainly isn't impossible to overcome (vacuoles, Portal Stones, etc). And Taim goes on lots of recruiting trips for the DR, and Graendal doesn't spend much time in the blight checking on Moridin, but in Arad Doman and going about her own business. The biggest problem with it is that I certainly don't see any such quote from Graendal in the tGS prologue. Come back with chapter and verse, and I'll give it more thought. And even if it was true (which I see no evidence of), it would only be true for the brief period of the tGS novel. Hardly a long time.

"...the others were easy to track. Moridin was gathering the Great Lord's forces for the Last Battle, and his war preparations left him very little time for the south - though his two minions, Cyndane and Moghedien, occasionally showed their faces there." TGS Prologue. P 36 in my edition (UK hardback). So Graendal is tracking most of the Chosen - only Demandred is proving a complete mystery - and Moridin very rarely being in the south flatly rules out him spending most of his time at the BT, as Taim would do.

 

Again, the conflicting orders thing is also good evidence against, but it can be overcome.

Then overcome it. You have yet to do so.

 

2) You missed the whole point: it isn't just a Warder's grace, but the sense of being a Warder referred to 100 times in the series from a man who isn't in any way martial (he hates the sword). Why the sudden switch, and why not perceived until AFTER aCoS. He didn't have it in LoC or earlier. The point isn't that he's graceful/not, it's that he not approximating a Warder. That isn't a sense you get from others, say Berelain or Faile, who are also graceful. Or even an accomplished soldier, like Dobraine. Throw in the fact that he is standing with one arm behind his back (like Rand) and we know Moridin has adopted some of Rand's mannerisms/pain with his rubbing of his arm (where Rand lost his hand) in tGS prologue. It seems pretty clear that if Taim isn't Moridin, at least RJ and BS are trying to make us think he is.

I'm going to need quotes on the warders grace thing for Taim. And it starting after ACoS.

 

3) Sigil. Again, you miss the point. The others with the Sigil are Forsaken. And steel (Sammael) would be below silver (Be'lal).

Yet we have no evidence to indicate that Sammael did stand below Be'lal. You take the sigil and make it mean what you want it to mean. If gold sigil stood higher than silver sigil, stood higher than steel sigil, you would have a point. Yet we have nothing besides the different colouring to suggest that Taim stands higher than Sammael stood higher than Be'lal.

No non-Forsaken has ever displayed that Sigil.

Eleven of the Chosen have also never displayed it. By that reasoning, Taim is either Sammael or Be'lal. Neither Demandred nor Moridin has ever displayed that sigil.

Do I need to draw a logic tree for you?

We've already demonstrated the hole in your logic.

 

4) TP. Again, we've never seen a non-Forsaken (other than Rand) use the TP.

Yet the mere fact of Rand using it harms your argument. It is not restricted to the Nae'blis, nor to the Chosen even. If Shai'tan deigned to give Taim access, he would have access. We know it is not something only Moridin can use, therefore its use (which is only implied) does not mean the user is Moridin. If it did, then Graendal and Rand, and nearly thrity other, would all be Moridin as well.

The odds the DO would give that to a non-Chosen 3rd ager pupil of Demandred (but not Demandred himself) are just so small it isn't even worth mentioning.

Pupil of Ishamael. Get the theory you are arguing against right. So the odds against a pupil of Ishy getting it when Ishy still does are how small?

[pc0000001]

Taim cannot be a 2nd Age Forsaken, according to the BWB:

 

Though other Aes Sedai went over to the Shadow, none who equalled or approached in strength those now called Forsaken was still alive by the last year of the War of Power; yet not one of them is reported to have died by enemy action.

 

- The World of Robert Jordan’s The Wheel of Time

 

Thanx to 13th Depository for that. Also Mr Ares, I stand in awe of your Wheel of Time knowledge, but here is a quote about Taim's Warder grace:

 

"He was tall, nearly as tall as Rand, with a hooked nose and dark eyes like augurs, a physically powerful man who moved with something of a Warder's deadly grace"

 

Winter's Heart Pg. 38

[Annia]

Taim cannot be a 2nd Age Forsaken, according to the BWB:

 

Though other Aes Sedai went over to the Shadow, none who equalled or approached in strength those now called Forsaken was still alive by the last year of the War of Power; yet not one of them is reported to have died by enemy action.

 

- The World of Robert Jordan’s The Wheel of Time

 

 

 

What exactly are you trying to prove with this quote? Doesn't this just say that that Forsaken (most likely) killed DF Aes Sedai who might have become a threat to them before the war's end? What does this have to do with Taim being one of the Forsaken in disguise? I don't actually believe that Taim is Moridin but this quote doesn't seem to have anythign to do with the matter at hand. Or if it does, please enlighten me.

[wvlr2]

I think Taim is Moridin. He's got the second Dreamspike and it seemed to me like he was favoring his left hand, like we know Moridin does after Rand got his hand blasted off by Semi

 

Are you saying that Taim was favoring his left hand? Where was this? Can you give a quote?

 

Now Different subjects:

 

I think that the BT people are being turned by the 13x13 - not the Mindtrap. If we see Mordin with 20 Mindtraps wrapped around his neck though I might change my mind. But the 13x13 makes more sense.

 

I hope Ny healed Flynn first and then let him watch her heal Narshima, so he can maybe learn how. He could watch if he was linked to his AS I think.

 

I think that the Red Vieled Men in the Blight are Male Aiel channelers. In poor light it is often hard to see eye color, and we have heard people call them "Dark Eyed Aiel" before. I'm not sure why they would remove their viels to kill though.

 

Also Mordin said that he had the "code" for the DS that he gave Graendel. He did not say that he had the one for the other DS.

 

I'm think that both Rand & Perrin said that they need to check out the BT. Maybe this will be Perrin's second chance to save Rand, this time in TAR. Super Rand gets into trouble and Bad Ass Perrin comes up and waves his hand - saying "don't pay any attention to that - it's just weaves".

[nolirion]

Taim cannot be a 2nd Age Forsaken, according to the BWB:

 

Though other Aes Sedai went over to the Shadow, none who equalled or approached in strength those now called Forsaken was still alive by the last year of the War of Power; yet not one of them is reported to have died by enemy action.

 

- The World of Robert Jordan’s The Wheel of Time

 

 

 

What exactly are you trying to prove with this quote? Doesn't this just say that that Forsaken (most likely) killed DF Aes Sedai who might have become a threat to them before the war's end? What does this have to do with Taim being one of the Forsaken in disguise? I don't actually believe that Taim is Moridin but this quote doesn't seem to have anythign to do with the matter at hand. Or if it does, please enlighten me.

 

He mean they where 13 forsaken and since then only the resurrected forsaken are "new" to the title .

Taim is no More then a man who turn to the DO

[Sharaman]

IIRC Faolain is with the salidar lot at the BT - according to Min, she'll do something useful. Maybe she'll provoke Taim into dropping his MoM and going for her bald-headed with a zillion s'aa flowing across his eyeballs.

[Bob T Dwarf]

IIRC Faolain is with the salidar lot at the BT - according to Min, she'll do something useful. Maybe she'll provoke Taim into dropping his MoM and going for her bald-headed with a zillion s'aa flowing across his eyeballs.

 

Speaking of Faolain, I came across a great line while trying to find something else in one of the older books. Elayne says, "Are you still souring milk for a living, Faolain?" Apparently Faolain rubs everybody the wrong way.

[didymos]

Here's another problematic passage for the "Taim = Moridin" theory:

 

[Logain] took a long swallow of wine. "Taim wasn't pleased at me taking so many men out of the Tower and not telling him where they were going. I thought he was going to rip up your order. He tried every trick to learn where you are. Oh, he burns to know that."

 

One thing Ishamael/Moridin (and Lanfear/Cyndane, who's firmly under Moridin's control) never had trouble with was tracking Rand down when he wanted to. It was only before he became ta'veren that the Shadow had to resort to Fain to try and ID him. You could write it off as just putting on a show, in case Logain happened to mention it to Rand, but it's not very convincing. It's not like Rand would have wondered why Taim didn't get really mad about that, or would have even expected Logain to bring it up. Rand doesn't really care at that point about Taim or Taim's feelings, so long as he follows orders. Logain can't even really convince Rand that he's a major problem that needs to be dealt with. To Rand, it's just yet another thing he doesn't have time for while dealing with bigger problems.

 

Then there's this exchange earlier in the book:

 

"Perrin Aybara and Mat Cauthon are ta'veren, easily found. Find them and kill them."

 

Graendal laughed, a mirthless sound. "Finding ta'veren was never as easy as you made it out to be, and now it's harder than ever. The whole Pattern is in flux, full of shifts and spikes."

 

Yeah, Graendal says it's not that simple, but she's not speaking for Moridin. The context makes it clear that this is something he thinks should be easy because it's not that difficult for him.

 

Plus, keep in mind that this is well after aCoS and the Rand/Moridin link is in full effect, and Rand can now see Moridin's face clearly, and Rand worries that it may make it easy to find him, just like how Ishamael and Lanfear used the fact that he was ta'veren to find him, which is knowledge he picked up from LTT.

[capuga]

Here's another problematic passage for the "Taim = Moridin" theory:

 

[Logain] took a long swallow of wine. "Taim wasn't pleased at me taking so many men out of the Tower and not telling him where they were going. I thought he was going to rip up your order. He tried every trick to learn where you are. Oh, he burns to know that."

 

One thing Ishamael/Moridin (and Lanfear/Cyndane, who's firmly under Moridin's control) never had trouble with was tracking Rand down when he wanted to. It was only before he became ta'veren that the Shadow had to resort to Fain to try and ID him. You could write it off as just putting on a show, in case Logain happened to mention it to Rand, but it's not very convincing. It's not like Rand would have wondered why Taim didn't get really mad about that, or would have even expected Logain to bring it up. Rand doesn't really care at that point about Taim or Taim's feelings, so long as he follows orders. Logain can't even really convince Rand that he's a major problem that needs to be dealt with. To Rand, it's just yet another thing he doesn't have time for while dealing with bigger problems.

 

Then there's this exchange earlier in the book:

 

"Perrin Aybara and Mat Cauthon are ta'veren, easily found. Find them and kill them."

 

Graendal laughed, a mirthless sound. "Finding ta'veren was never as easy as you made it out to be, and now it's harder than ever. The whole Pattern is in flux, full of shifts and spikes."

 

Yeah, Graendal says it's not that simple, but she's not speaking for Moridin. The context makes it clear that this is something he thinks should be easy because it's not that difficult for him.

 

Plus, keep in mind that this is well after aCoS and the Rand/Moridin link is in full effect, and Rand can now see Moridin's face clearly, and Rand worries that it may make it easy to find him, just like how Ishamael and Lanfear used the fact that he was ta'veren to find him, which is knowledge he picked up from LTT.

 

Thank you - I always appreciate more solid evidence to support my position that Taim is not Moridin.

[Lironah]

You guys are all so gonna eat your words when Taim is revealed as Moridin in A Memory of Light.

 

He has to be a Forsaken - Elayne saw the warped darkness around him that we know from TGS is a sign of using the True Power. He talks like a 2nd Ager, knows weaves that are suspicious at best, and speaks about the Forsaken like he knows them. There are 5 Forsaken left, and Cyndane, Moghedien, and Graendal are out. Demandred's been excluded by RJ, so Moridin's the only one left. Robert Jordan himself has said that the Dark One thinks his Forsaken are cooler than any 3rd Age channelers (search Tor Questions of the Week - there's some great stuff); there's no way under the Light or Shadow that he'd give a 3rd Ager access to his True Power during a time period where the books establish that no Forsaken but Moridin was permitted to use it. Taim's height changed during Lord of Chaos - from 'just over average' to 'almost as tall as Rand'. Moridin is of a height with Rand. Moridin said he'd put the dreamspike to good use - then we see it launched at the Black Tower the same day Taim's wall is completed and finally manned. We see Asha'man 13x13ed, and some of them exhibit signs of accelerated training - not the usual Asha forcing, but the kind you'd need a time-warping vacuole like Moridin's to accomplish.

 

I don't understand how anyone who's read Lord of Chaos more than once could believe that he's just some guy. (Of course, I said the same thing about Graendal and Asmodean, but I guess there were some...)

[didymos]

You guys are all so gonna eat your words when Taim is revealed as Moridin in A Memory of Light.

 

I'll have nothing to eat. All I've ever said is that I'm unconvinced he is and that there are things that are problematic for the notion. I am, and there are. Even if he turns out to be Moridin, those anomalies will still require explanation.

 

He has to be a Forsaken - Elayne saw the warped darkness around him that we know from TGS is a sign of using the True Power.

 

Look: I agree, it's suggestive, but then so was Taim's "almost-smile". The plain fact is the way it's described when people see it around Rand is rather different than the "air of darkness" Taim has, which may very well be metaphorical. Elayne's POV states only that "shadows seemed to follow him" and "not real shadows, but an air of imminent violence that seemed palpable enough to soak up the light". Pevara's POV in KoD has only "an air of physical strength about him. An air of darkness, too." So, does Taim have a "physical strength aura"? Where'd that one come from? And, that weird air warping, corner-of-the-eye effect that Rand displays never appears when Taim's "aura" is mentioned (and I put that in quotes because with Taim, the word "aura" is never actually used).

[Lironah]

You guys are all so gonna eat your words when Taim is revealed as Moridin in A Memory of Light.

 

I'll have nothing to eat. All I've ever said is that I'm unconvinced he is and that there are things that are problematic for the notion. I am, and there are. Even if he turns out to be Moridin, those anomalies will still require explanation.

 

I won't hold your neutrality against you. However I must note that reading your post from a believer's point of view, I actually thought the evidence you presented pointed more strongly in favor of the Mazridin theory than against. I will have to give it more consideration before officially adding it to my arsenal.

[capuga]

You guys are all so gonna eat your words when Taim is revealed as Moridin in A Memory of Light.

 

He has to be a Forsaken - Elayne saw the warped darkness around him that we know from TGS is a sign of using the True Power.

 

Actually we do not know that this is a sign of using the True Power. That is an assumption. Rand's dark aura in tGS could just as easily be from his bleak outlook at that point (and a manifistation of his status as the Fisher King). You are also assuming that what Elayne sees around Taim is the same thing. Elayne thinks he is a scary/creepy guy, the dark aura around him could just be her impression of him. There is no clear evidence that this dark aura = True Power use. Even if it did, there is no reason that Taim (as Ishy's protege) wouldn't have permission. Many others in the past have had permission and the quote that Moridin has sole use of the TP occurs later in the series.

 

He talks like a 2nd Ager, knows weaves that are suspicious at best, and speaks about the Forsaken like he knows them. There are 5 Forsaken left, and Cyndane, Moghedien, and Graendal are out. Demandred's been excluded by RJ, so Moridin's the only one left.

 

Also easily explained if Moridin trained Taim.

 

Robert Jordan himself has said that the Dark One thinks his Forsaken are cooler than any 3rd Age channelers (search Tor Questions of the Week - there's some great stuff); there's no way under the Light or Shadow that he'd give a 3rd Ager access to his True Power during a time period where the books establish that no Forsaken but Moridin was permitted to use it.

 

No reason to believe the Dark One couldn't change his mind when he sees what a strong, capable channeler that Taim is and elevate him to Chosen status. Although Taim doesn't need to be anything other than a Darkfriend working under the Forsaken to explain his actions.

 

Taim's height changed during Lord of Chaos - from 'just over average' to 'almost as tall as Rand'. Moridin is of a height with Rand.

 

I never noticed this when reading but I have seen others address this. I believe that RJ addressed this inconsistency later. Not sure though.

 

Moridin said he'd put the dreamspike to good use - then we see it launched at the Black Tower the same day Taim's wall is completed and finally manned.

 

He gave the dreamspike to Taim to use just like he gave the other one to Graendal. This isn't evidence of anything.

 

We see Asha'man 13x13ed, and some of them exhibit signs of accelerated training - not the usual Asha forcing, but the kind you'd need a time-warping vacuole like Moridin's to accomplish.

 

This is all assumptions (although I happen to agree that the 13x13 trick was used) but Taim doesn't have to be Moridin to accomplish this. Doesn't even have to be a 3rd age Chosen. Just a darkfriend. There is also no evidence that Moridin uses a vacuole. The only time I remember it being mentioned it was said that nobody would use them because they were unstable and could break off from the pattern at any time. We don't have nearly enough info to determine where the accelerated training came from.

 

I don't understand how anyone who's read Lord of Chaos more than once could believe that he's just some guy. (Of course, I said the same thing about Graendal and Asmodean, but I guess there were some...)

 

I'm always amazed at how differently people interpret things in the series. I've read things that I thought were clear cut and then came on these boards and see that people think 100 different things. I've never thought Taim=Moridin makes sense but plenty of people do. Its one of the things that make this series so facinating and fun to discuss.

 

If you look through these posts you will see that all of the Taim=Moridin evidence has been addressed and given explanations but issues with the Taim=Moridin that we have raised have not been addressed and explained.

 

Why do the rogue Asha'man get different orders from Taim and Moridin? This allows for the chance they will listen to Taim (and just kill Rand) and not get his possessions (which is what is most important to Moridin). Also, appearing as 2 different people to your enemies makes sense, doing it to your underlings doesn't. How does Moridin have enough time to perform his duties as Nae'blis and Taim's duties as M'hael? Especially when Graendal notes that Moridin spends most of his time in the Blight. Why doesn't Rand ever see Taim's face through his connection with Moridin when he seizes Saidin if Moridin is often in that disguise? Why does Logain tell Rand that Taim is desperate to find Rand when Moridin can find ta'veren by reading the pattern?

 

This negative evidence needs to be addressed instead of just reposting the positive evidence that we have given explanations for.

[didymos]

Missed a couple things:

 

there's no way under the Light or Shadow that he'd give a 3rd Ager access to his True Power during a time period where the books establish that no Forsaken but Moridin was permitted to use it.

 

The books do not establish that. What they do establish is that the other Forsaken believe it is restricted to Moridin. And, as we learned, that wasn't quite the case. Graendal got limited access at some point.

 

Taim's height changed during Lord of Chaos - from 'just over average' to 'almost as tall as Rand'.

 

Ah. This again. No, what happened was that RJ changed his mind or simply made a mistake. Earlier printings of LoC have "a black-haired man of slightly above average height..." Current editions now have "a black-haired man of well above average height..."

[capuga]

 

Taim's height changed during Lord of Chaos - from 'just over average' to 'almost as tall as Rand'.

 

Ah. This again. No, what happened was that RJ changed his mind or simply made a mistake. Earlier printings of LoC have "a black-haired man of slightly above average height..." Current editions now have "a black-haired man of well above average height..."

 

Thank you. I knew that I had seen that addressed before. You are pretty awesome about finding all these quotes, one of these days I'm gonna have to have you Jedi train me so that I don't have to do all of this from memory.