The Black Tower

[dwn]

Regarding Mr. Ares, lets just say we disagree. Taim is Moridin. He definitely stands the way Rand does, he moves with near a Warders grace, despite having said he hates the sword. Why is that do you think? Hmmm, I wonder what it could be. And you still haven't addressed the issue with the sigil (same as Be'lal's and Sammael's). Or the fact that he radiates a dark aura as far back as Winter's Heart (TP usage). Who else was wielding the TP at that time? And it makes no sense for a "pupil" to be granted something only Ishy and Graendal have been granted, even before Graendal was.

 

Mesanna was Danelle. Graendal killed Asmodean. Moiraine is back. Mat gave up his eye. Cyndane is Lanfear. And Weiramon was a DF. Noal was Farstrider. Galad and Berelain are in love. Setalle Anan was the woman who is no more. And Taim is Moridin. Sometimes a duck is a duck.

 

And sometimes it's a swan.

 

-- dwn

[Cherubin]

I think I have figured out how the Black Tower will be cleansed from the Shadow

(1) Rand will probably have no time to personally attend the happenings.

(2) Its Logains Job, we know he will play an important role somehow, and will probably be the next male M'Hael, what would be better than kicking out the Dark Ashaman

(3) Logain is seriously underpowered - no chance for him and his group to overcome Taim with the power, at least not without taking horrible losses and letting Taim escape - therefore entirely neutralizing the Ashaman

(4) However, if we rule out the use of the power, Logain would have a very good chance. If we only rule out the male power, his Aes Sedai Warders will kick the Dark Ashamans out, even if both Saidin and Saidar are banned, his soldiers, with the help of the Two Rivers man would have an easy way with Taims DA, considering how little those train with the sword.

 

Therefore, Logain gets the Far Madding Angreal, either the one only blocking the male half of the power, which would be convenient, since then his warders can transport it via gateway. Then he moves somehow to the Black Tower and starts his assault. Thanks to the Dreamspike they cannot even Beam Away once they run far enough to no longer be under the influence of the Far Madding Angreal

 

We know the Far Madding Angreal will be used in the story somehow, - the Dark Tower would be the perfect spot.

What do you think?

[gary0044187]

In a recent book egwene dreamed or foretold a cleansing of the black tower by AS.

When did THAT happen ?

don't have the books on me, but I just googled it. Elaida fortold that "The Black Tower will be rent in blood and fire, and sisters will walk its grounds." This was from Crown of Swords.

 

Sisters walking its grounds is already fulfilled, but the rent in blood and fire says battle. I take this to mean either rand leads the combined channeler forces he meets at the fields or that Logain/Egwene/both lead an assault against Taim there.

[didymos]

We know the Far Madding Angreal will be used in the story somehow, - the Dark Tower would be the perfect spot.

What do you think?

 

I think it's impractical at best. The Guardian is both large and largely made of metal, taking up most of the floor in a huge chamber. Also, it's a ter'angreal.

[putts]

I don't think Moridin is Taim. It's come into my head a few times but it almost seems ... too obvious. If you were #2 to the Dark One himself, would you place yourself in the most obvious place?

 

The one thing we do know is that Rand is currently afraid to go there. Or at least feels that he's unready to do what needs to be done there. But, in that same line of thought, that means he's keeping it for one of the last things he must do. Who else would be last short of Moridin? So the whole argument goes full circle.

 

It just has the feeling where ... you've sensed it from the first time you've met Taim. He has purposefully cast in a dark light from the get-go but we almost purposefully never get much PoV from Taim himself. It could be the obvious ... but I guess I'm pulling for something else altogether. Something we could hardly see coming.

 

 

The one thing I do know ... One of the biggest storylines I can't read will be how the BT is handled and what mysteries come out.

[smileyman]

I don't think Moridin is Taim. It's come into my head a few times but it almost seems ... too obvious. If you were #2 to the Dark One himself, would you place yourself in the most obvious place?

 

The Purloined Letter method.

 

The one thing we do know is that Rand is currently afraid to go there. Or at least feels that he's unready to do what needs to be done there. But, in that same line of thought, that means he's keeping it for one of the last things he must do. Who else would be last short of Moridin? So the whole argument goes full circle.

 

Well he can't use a Gateway to get there, so he has to have someone go there the old-fashioned way. My impression was more that it was an issue of not enough time at the moment, instead of fear or feelings of unreadiness.

 

One other piece of "evidence". Currently the Black Tower is the most successfully infiltrated group in all of Randland. Who else but the head honcho would have the most success?

[Cazajay]

Let's face it Taim had too much knowledge and obviously had many years of working with the power for a mere wilder, Rand was an idiot for trusting him from the get go. Lews Therin was right even if he sounded mad as a hatter.

 

I could also offer an interesting point for those who believe Taim is just a lacky. Apparently in a Q & A with RJ someone asked if Weaves of the OP could be learned from a book, (I'm assuming they meant a old aes sedai text book with diagrams)

RJ answered: oh hehe that's a RAFO!

 

This could be why Taim is so knowledgeable but since his name was never mentioned in conjunction with this question it could also mean that Rand or even Moiraine has learned something. Or Cadsuane is still to Teach the Asha'man something specific she saw in a book. :)

 

oh and for those of you who keep saying RJ said Taim is just Taim. You are wrong he did not say that at all.

RJ's exact quote about Taim concerned a reader asking if he was Demandred in disguise. The answer was;

"Demandred has never posed as Mazrim Taim. Sometimes a simple answer can be the most devious any aes sedai knows this."

 

Is RJ saying his short answer to the reader is devious or that the theory on Taim is simple not complex?

[Guest]

I just had this idea, an epiphany if you like, regarding Androl.

 

If he is so skilled with gateways, could that mean he would also be a genius with death gates?

 

imagine if he can produce a shitload of them with double the speed of normal LTT ones :O

 

I dunno, to me it seems at the very least plausible

[Cazajay]

I just had this idea, an epiphany if you like, regarding Androl.

 

If he is so skilled with gateways, could that mean he would also be a genius with death gates?

 

imagine if he can produce a shitload of them with double the speed of normal LTT ones :O

 

I dunno, to me it seems at the very least plausible

 

 

 

I also believe there is more to him than meets the eye he is hiding something from the rest of them that much is clear from his PoV.

It's weird how everyone assumes that the stronger you are the bigger your Gateway, Androl makes massive Gateways and teeny tiny ones but can barely channel a candle flame. I can't wait for him to tear appart an asha'man bully as Gateways aren't exactly safe, they are a weapon as well.

Either that or the evil buggers are going to find themselves sprouting arrows before they can blink.

[Guest]

I just had this idea, an epiphany if you like, regarding Androl.

 

If he is so skilled with gateways, could that mean he would also be a genius with death gates?

 

imagine if he can produce a shitload of them with double the speed of normal LTT ones :O

 

I dunno, to me it seems at the very least plausible

 

 

 

I also believe there is more to him than meets the eye he is hiding something from the rest of them that much is clear from his PoV.

It's weird how everyone assumes that the stronger you are the bigger your Gateway, Androl makes massive Gateways and teeny tiny ones but can barely channel a candle flame. I can't wait for him to tear appart an asha'man bully as Gateways aren't exactly safe, they are a weapon as well.

Either that or the evil buggers are going to find themselves sprouting arrows before they can blink.

 

yes, its all about talent. correct me if im wrong, but couldnt Samitsu singlehandedly heal comparably to a full circle? I hope to see androl making use of his gateway talent after he spots Rand doing deathgates saving Caemlyn; "Androl saw the Dragon Reborn opening a vast army of gateways in the middle of the trolloc army. This was what he had been wanting to discover himself. He focused on the weave the Dragon used and suddenly an area almost five times bigger than the Dragon produced was swarming in relatively small gateways but with incredible speed. Androl did not notice the Dragon run over to him. As he passed out, Androl could hear the tides of battle were turned. The Light had prevailed"

[Mr Ares]

I am almost 100 percent sure that RJ said Taim = Taim.

I don't recall any such quote. A shame, as it would have been very helpful.

 

Regarding Mr. Ares, lets just say we disagree. Taim is Moridin. He definitely stands the way Rand does, he moves with near a Warders grace, despite having said he hates the sword.

Because Warders are the only people who can be graceful?

And you still haven't addressed the issue with the sigil (same as Be'lal's and Sammael's).

Yes, I have. He shares a sigil with two guys who aren't Moridin, therefore he is Moridin isn't logical. He has his sigil gilded, Sammael and Be'lal didn't, therefore he stands higher runs into the problem of us having no evidence that either Be'lal or Sammael stood higher than the other, despite one using steel and one using silver.

Or the fact that he radiates a dark aura as far back as Winter's Heart (TP usage).

Well, yes I did. Even if it was TP usage, all it means is that Taim was granted the use of it. We know that is well within Shai'tan's power. It being granted to Graendal weakens the case as it is not restricted purely to the Nae'blis.

 

Mesanna was Danelle. Graendal killed Asmodean. Moiraine is back. Mat gave up his eye. Cyndane is Lanfear. And Weiramon was a DF. Noal was Farstrider. Galad and Berelain are in love. Setalle Anan was the woman who is no more. And Taim is Moridin. Sometimes a duck is a duck.

But not everything with two legs, a beak and feathers is a duck, which is what you're claiming. Especially when this duck doesn't quack like Moridin. I've yet to see a decent counter to the different orders in WH.

 

 

I could also offer an interesting point for those who believe Taim is just a lacky. Apparently in a Q & A with RJ someone asked if Weaves of the OP could be learned from a book, (I'm assuming they meant a old aes sedai text book with diagrams)

RJ answered: oh hehe that's a RAFO!

It seems that Moiraine might have done so with balefire, and Egwene appears to have pieced together cuendillar from descriptions Moghedien gave of the weave.

 

It's weird how everyone assumes that the stronger you are the bigger your Gateway, Androl makes massive Gateways and teeny tiny ones but can barely channel a candle flame.

Well, a fairly solid assumption before this book - aside from Avi (who was using a second method, as she forgot the one she originally used in FoH), Gateways always appeared to be larger for stronger channelers. Androl is the only exception we have seen. Contrast with Healing, where strength in the power and strength of Talent are quite different, and stated so numerous times.

[didymos]

It's weird how everyone assumes that the stronger you are the bigger your Gateway,

 

That's because that's how it actually works for nearly all channelers.

 

 

Androl makes massive Gateways and teeny tiny ones but can barely channel a candle flame.

 

Androl has a Talent for them. If he were much stronger in the Power, his gateways would be ridiculously massive.

[putts]

I just had this idea, an epiphany if you like, regarding Androl.

 

If he is so skilled with gateways, could that mean he would also be a genius with death gates?

 

imagine if he can produce a shitload of them with double the speed of normal LTT ones :O

 

I dunno, to me it seems at the very least plausible

 

I'm waiting for him to go death gates all over people. Ever since I saw him slice that strap with a teeny tiny one, that's what popped into my head.

After Rand took out a whole army with those, it's hard not to think of those :P

[WhiskyJack]

No one person can make gateways bigger than Rand, un aided.

[lordofsoup]

Is there any reason why Rand can't take Callandor out on a test run?

[Haran]

So Androl and that red ajah AS sneak into the black tower main complex under a saidar weave. They rescue Logain from a torture chamber, but then they get jumped by Taim (who is a Darkfriend and hopes to become one of the new Chosen). Logain uses some sort of nondestructive weave and defeats Taim thereby proving that the Light owns or some such.

Logain figures that he can't contact Rand to fix everything anymore, instead he secretly contacts the 50 female AS outside the tower. Together they subdue some of the dark asha'man. A lot of them manage to flee though

The timelines reconvene and Logain rides into the Fields of Merrilor (?) and proclaims that he is the M’Hael now and that he has no intention of sending his boys to die unless some of his demands are met.

[Bob T Dwarf]

And Taim is Moridin. Sometimes a duck is a duck.

 

NO if you're going to claim a duck is just a duck ( or a cigar is just a cigar ) then you would have to say that Taim = Taim and Moridin = Moridin.

 

And, if you're going to say that Taim = Moridin than you're saying sometimes a duck is really a crane.

[capuga]

I am almost 100 percent sure that RJ said Taim = Taim.

I don't recall any such quote. A shame, as it would have been very helpful.

 

Regarding Mr. Ares, lets just say we disagree. Taim is Moridin. He definitely stands the way Rand does, he moves with near a Warders grace, despite having said he hates the sword.

Because Warders are the only people who can be graceful?

And you still haven't addressed the issue with the sigil (same as Be'lal's and Sammael's).

Yes, I have. He shares a sigil with two guys who aren't Moridin, therefore he is Moridin isn't logical. He has his sigil gilded, Sammael and Be'lal didn't, therefore he stands higher runs into the problem of us having no evidence that either Be'lal or Sammael stood higher than the other, despite one using steel and one using silver.

Or the fact that he radiates a dark aura as far back as Winter's Heart (TP usage).

Well, yes I did. Even if it was TP usage, all it means is that Taim was granted the use of it. We know that is well within Shai'tan's power. It being granted to Graendal weakens the case as it is not restricted purely to the Nae'blis.

 

Mesanna was Danelle. Graendal killed Asmodean. Moiraine is back. Mat gave up his eye. Cyndane is Lanfear. And Weiramon was a DF. Noal was Farstrider. Galad and Berelain are in love. Setalle Anan was the woman who is no more. And Taim is Moridin. Sometimes a duck is a duck.

But not everything with two legs, a beak and feathers is a duck, which is what you're claiming. Especially when this duck doesn't quack like Moridin. I've yet to see a decent counter to the different orders in WH.

 

 

I could also offer an interesting point for those who believe Taim is just a lacky. Apparently in a Q & A with RJ someone asked if Weaves of the OP could be learned from a book, (I'm assuming they meant a old aes sedai text book with diagrams)

RJ answered: oh hehe that's a RAFO!

It seems that Moiraine might have done so with balefire, and Egwene appears to have pieced together cuendillar from descriptions Moghedien gave of the weave.

 

It's weird how everyone assumes that the stronger you are the bigger your Gateway, Androl makes massive Gateways and teeny tiny ones but can barely channel a candle flame.

Well, a fairly solid assumption before this book - aside from Avi (who was using a second method, as she forgot the one she originally used in FoH), Gateways always appeared to be larger for stronger channelers. Androl is the only exception we have seen. Contrast with Healing, where strength in the power and strength of Talent are quite different, and stated so numerous times.

 

I will add another argument against this whole Taim=Moridin theory: In a Graendal POV in tGS when she is meeting with Moridin (I believe the same one where Demondred says My rule is secure) she mentions that Moridin spends pretty much all of his time in the Blight marshalling the Shadow's forces there. This would not seem to leave him a whole lot of time to perform all of Taim's activities (and Taim appears to be keeping pretty busy). It makes much more sense for him to delegate those responsibilities to a trusted minion.

[Jeangray]

That's because that's how it actually works for nearly all channelers.

 

I seem to remember that Rand thought in one of the early books (TFoH?) that he could only make gateways a certain maximum size, no matter how much power he poured into them.

Logically, strength in Spirit should probably play a role in the sizes of the gateways that a channeler can make.

[Sharaman]

Looking at it the other way around - Androl may actually be the male equivalent of a blocked wilder.

He's brilliant with Gates - ergo, he should be very strong. But he can barely channel otherwise.

That suggests a possible block? We know he had a block unless he was holding onto leather straps and Taim thrashed him till he channeled without it.

Maybe Taim didn't thrash him enough?

There's also a funny back story to the guy so much so, he's almost a Farstrider in terms of the places he's been and things he's done.

[WhiskyJack]

That's because that's how it actually works for nearly all channelers.

 

I seem to remember that Rand thought in one of the early books (TFoH?) that he could only make gateways a certain maximum size, no matter how much power he poured into them.

Logically, strength in Spirit should probably play a role in the sizes of the gateways that a channeler can make.

 

There is an upper limit on size of the gateways if only one person is making it (Rand can make the biggest one). Two women much weaker than Rand (combined) can make bigger gateway than him. Are gateways made purely out of spirit? I though that was shield.

[Haran]

That's because that's how it actually works for nearly all channelers.

 

I seem to remember that Rand thought in one of the early books (TFoH?) that he could only make gateways a certain maximum size, no matter how much power he poured into them.

Logically, strength in Spirit should probably play a role in the sizes of the gateways that a channeler can make.

 

There is an upper limit on size of the gateways if only one person is making it (Rand can make the biggest one). Two women much weaker than Rand (combined) can make bigger gateway than him. Are gateways made purely out of spirit? I though that was shield.

 

They are made out of all 5 weaves I think.

We know is that Rand makes big gateways, much bigger than for example Elayne. We also know that Rand is much stronger than Elayne in the one power, but we don’t know for sure that these two facts have anything to do with each other.

We also know that each person has a maximum size of gate they can create, using angreals (I think) or pushing in more power won’t change the size further beyond the maximum. Linking with another though greatly increases the size.

For all we know gateways could be defined by the “strength” of a persons ability to weave one or more of the elements (Spirit for example) even strength of will or personality or as most people think “strenght” or affinity to the one power.

[Kidicaris]

That's because that's how it actually works for nearly all channelers.

 

I seem to remember that Rand thought in one of the early books (TFoH?) that he could only make gateways a certain maximum size, no matter how much power he poured into them.

Logically, strength in Spirit should probably play a role in the sizes of the gateways that a channeler can make.

 

There is an upper limit on size of the gateways if only one person is making it (Rand can make the biggest one). Two women much weaker than Rand (combined) can make bigger gateway than him. Are gateways made purely out of spirit? I though that was shield.

 

Yeah the stationary travel gate is a thing completely of Spirit--Rand alters the weave with other threads of Power to make deathgates.

To Travel/Skim you need 3 things: knowledge of the weave, strength enough to make the weave work and familiar knowledge of origin/destination.

Presumably the weave itself isn't an obscene web like Nyneave's true Healing--since sisters are described as learning it on spec and using it immediately given they have the strength to make the weave work.

 

Thinking back to deathgates... it would be cool to see Rand use one to rescue someone, you know, to kind of scoop them out to safety with a moving gateway. Lol, maybe if Dan Brown was writing this and not Brandon Sanderson.

[TheAngryDruid]

And Taim is Moridin. Sometimes a duck is a duck.

 

NO if you're going to claim a duck is just a duck ( or a cigar is just a cigar ) then you would have to say that Taim = Taim and Moridin = Moridin.

 

And, if you're going to say that Taim = Moridin than you're saying sometimes a duck is really a crane.

 

While I see what you are saying, you miss the point. Everything we see about Taim points to him being a 2nd Ager, not a 3rd ager, and one of the Forsaken. He uses Forsaken sigils of a higher rank than Be'lal or Sammael. He flies Moridin's colors. He has access to instructions given only to Chosen. He manifests a TP aura when only Moridin had access to the TP. He uses 2nd age speech patterns. He has access to ter'angreal that only Moridin/Graendal have access to (the DO's favored pair). He suddenly is standing like Rand and assuming a warder's grace and gait, even though we know he disdains the sword.

 

Sorry. Moridin = Taim = Duck. You have to twist yourself in knots to not see it.

 

Taim = 2nd Ager with mysterious speech patterns and mannerisms mimicking Rand/LTT after the balefire link, sporting Moridin's colors, manifesting a TP aura, with access to ter'angreal only the top two Forsaken have access to and privy to the DO's direct instructions to other Forsaken = crane.

 

Give me a coherent explanation for all the traits we KNOW of instead of picking some other info from the series and saying that disproves the idea. Sorry, but Demarndred's protoge (which only explains the speech and maybe Let the lord of Chaos rule) isn't even in it.

[didymos]

That's because that's how it actually works for nearly all channelers.

 

I seem to remember that Rand thought in one of the early books (TFoH?) that he could only make gateways a certain maximum size, no matter how much power he poured into them.

Logically, strength in Spirit should probably play a role in the sizes of the gateways that a channeler can make.

 

Oh, yeah. I'd forgotten about that. Well, strength still determines gateway size until the individual maximum is reached.

 

ETA: BTW, gateways (or at least male ones) are more than just Spirit. In KoD, we learn they're made of Spirit and Fire. Throw in some Earth woven in the proper fashion, and you get Deathgates. But still, the suggestion is that they're mostly Spirit, so yeah: that should be the main determinant.