Discuss Aviendha's Arc

[Baelorn]

The answer is simple: Get Tuon (Fortuna) in a situation where she MUST channel to save her life, she will no matter how much she dislikes the idea. That should be enough to force Seanchan attitudes to change, afterall their god-like empress being a Damane isn't viable when there is no one left to replace her and the world is literally at its end.

 

That or stop everyone from managing to die young, we KNOW Avi is in the final scene, all she has to do to stop that fighting is to not get herself killed, channelers live long lives.

 

It wouldn't be that simple. For all their talk of the "the empress, may she live forever" the Seanchan are worse than the Cairhienin when it comes to plotting and they have no problem with assassination attempts.

 

I haven't had time to read the whole thread but did anyone else think that these visions of Aviendha's may have been fabricated? We've seen Ter'angreal manipulated before and if the columns are anything like other Ter'angreal no one from the current Age really knows how they work.

[knutz]

The answer is simple: Get Tuon (Fortuna) in a situation where she MUST channel to save her life, she will no matter how much she dislikes the idea. That should be enough to force Seanchan attitudes to change, afterall their god-like empress being a Damane isn't viable when there is no one left to replace her and the world is literally at its end.

 

That or stop everyone from managing to die young, we KNOW Avi is in the final scene, all she has to do to stop that fighting is to not get herself killed, channelers live long lives.

 

It wouldn't be that simple. For all their talk of the "the empress, may she live forever" the Seanchan are worse than the Cairhienin when it comes to plotting and they have no problem with assassination attempts.

 

I haven't had time to read the whole thread but did anyone else think that these visions of Aviendha's may have been fabricated? We've seen Ter'angreal manipulated before and if the columns are anything like other Ter'angreal no one from the current Age really knows how they work.

 

They make sense though. The Aiel were excluded from the treaty because they are a free people and need to figure out how to go on by themselves. What they need to figure out is the way of the leaf, or the Seanchan will destroy them all.

 

Also I think the woman she met was of the Jenn Aiel - the clan that is not.

[Jong]

I just wanted to make a somewhat metaphyical point Re: The Future.

 

We the reader see a deterministic world where the story follows pretty much whatever the prophecy says. This is because the main characters are Taveren and even supporting cast are heavily intertwined their threads with taveren. Taveren, have fewer choices than normal people. And at this point Rand, Mat, and Perrin are effecting basicly everyone in the world. So the story is very deterministic, It is happening this way becase it had to happen this way. Other things at other times don't have to happen or can in principal go either way. Other people have real free will.

 

Once the last battle is over, there is no reason to think that Rand and Co will remain as Taveren. Free will shall return and when that happens, events in the wider world will be much more free and able to go either way. The future will be unpredictable moving forward.

 

As far as Nicoal's for telling, the world is not done with battle. She also said that the future rests on edge of a blade. This may imply that the way forward required a deadly balance. It also may imply that the end could go either way. There may be many possible futures after the last battle. This is just one of them.

[Agitel]

Tyr, Odin, and Thor were all prophesied to die at Ragnarok.

 

Depressing, I know.

 

I'd like to see some prophecies not come true. I feel like the closer the Last Battle is, the more the Pattern comes apart, the less certain prophesies are. They seem to me like projections of the Pattern. But the more influence the DO has and the weaker the Pattern, should not these projections become less likely?

 

 

Perhaps not.

 

I was depressed by the Seanchan visions at first, but then I just remembered, the Wheel weaves as it will. I'm sure if we were reading about the end of the Age of Legends we'd have been depressed to find out what happens after Lews Therin sealed the Bore. The world changes. And the Seanchan aren't necessarily going to be set in their same ways forever. Perhaps slavery will become illegal as they modernize over centuries. Then again, I wonder what they'd finally do to all the channelers once the entire world is theres. Would they NEED them anymore? Would their be a great culling, thus wiping channeling off the Earth?

 

Who knows?

 

And I have to disagree with the future being unpredictable. Sure, not everyone's actions are dictated, but the Pattern of an Age changes little with each turning.

[Darkleech]

I Agree the chapter was very depressing after buying all 13 books thus far - it bloody well better not come true.

[fborch]

Extremely sad seeing the Aiel like this. Although I expect Aviendha got something to say about that.

[markerikson]

Do we know whether this scene was written by RJ, planned by RJ and written by BS, or mostly made up by BS?

 

This was such a huge important scene, I really wanted to know just how much of it was set it stone from the beginning.

 

Also, why was that second chapter called "The Court of the Sun"? The actual Fourth Age Court of the Sun had pretty much nothing to with with what was going on in the chapter.

[Dams1986]

Tyr, Odin, and Thor were all prophesied to die at Ragnarok.

 

Depressing, I know.

 

I'd like to see some prophecies not come true. I feel like the closer the Last Battle is, the more the Pattern comes apart, the less certain prophesies are. They seem to me like projections of the Pattern. But the more influence the DO has and the weaker the Pattern, should not these projections become less likely?

 

 

Perhaps not.

 

I was depressed by the Seanchan visions at first, but then I just remembered, the Wheel weaves as it will. I'm sure if we were reading about the end of the Age of Legends we'd have been depressed to find out what happens after Lews Therin sealed the Bore. The world changes. And the Seanchan aren't necessarily going to be set in their same ways forever. Perhaps slavery will become illegal as they modernize over centuries. Then again, I wonder what they'd finally do to all the channelers once the entire world is theres. Would they NEED them anymore? Would their be a great culling, thus wiping channeling off the Earth?

 

Who knows?

 

And I have to disagree with the future being unpredictable. Sure, not everyone's actions are dictated, but the Pattern of an Age changes little with each turning.

 

I completely agree about the determinism but I also think what was most poignant about Rand's visions in Rhuidean as well as Aviendha's is discovering how every choice, whether seemingly minor or huge and momentous can affect the life of a people. Like when we discover that the Aiel used to follow the Way of the Leaf. And now when we discover that they're going to end up as nothing but scavengers due to the simple expediency of excluding them from the Dragon's Peace. I think the reason this is so tragic for us to read is because we're already so invested with the Aiel's history - their a proud people who we admire but we've also seen what they as a people suffered after the Breaking and their journey to find a land of safety. What strikes me as well is that whether this is determined or not, it always seems that people's choices matter so much and have such a powerful significance. As if the Wheel is testing people through their experiences. Either way, simply beautiful to read imo.

[Rand Skywalker]

Do we know whether this scene was written by RJ, planned by RJ and written by BS, or mostly made up by BS?

 

This was such a huge important scene, I really wanted to know just how much of it was set it stone from the beginning.

 

Also, why was that second chapter called "The Court of the Sun"? The actual Fourth Age Court of the Sun had pretty much nothing to with with what was going on in the chapter.

 

My money is on RJ writing/outlining this--I can't see BS presuming to take such an important subject up on his own.

 

I also wondered about the "Court of the Sun"--it seems like a slight detail indeed from such a weighty chapter. Is there a clue there? Merely a poor choice to title the chapter? (I have a hard time giving this credence, as I'm sure Harriet and Brandon gave these chapters a lot of attention and thought because they knew how beloved the previous glass column chapter were from TSR).

[Red2111]

my apologies if any of this has been said before. i read about 6 pages of the thread but wanted to go ahead and jot down my thoughts.

 

 

okay so these two chapters were heart wrenching for me. the Aiel are my favorite culture in the WoT, my heart broke and i cried right along with Avi.

 

i started off hating the senchan(sp) both for what they are now and what they will do in the apparent future, but after reflecting on the info gained from the chapters i concluded that the Aiel brought their own downfall, by forcing Andor into the war with tentative plans *shakes head sadly* that bit hurt the most, because after having such hatered build for the senchan and deciding Rand should just Balefire them all, i saw that it was the Aiels own fault.

 

the immediate cause of this loss of ji and what it means to earn ji or toh is part of the problem. we see that in one generation the concept of ji is to be earned by killing senchan. another part of their downfall comes from Rand not having a plan for the Aiel after the war, fixing this and giving them a place to belong will go far in fixing this desolate future we saw. also, Rand MUST NOT bend to Tuon; he must stand his ground otherwise (as elaynes great grand daughter said) the Senchan will see them all as below them.

 

these two things can be done in the present, and have a dramatic effect on the outcome of the future; Avi is smart, and i have faith that she will see this is the best course of action. i think the duty of that ter'angle is two fold, that each person is allowed to pass through it twice. once to show their ancestory, and once to show their future generations; the AS which gave these to the Aeil mostlikely knew this and advised against goign through it twice because of the consequences of seeing the future. to prevent self-fullfilling prophecy.

 

however, the use for seeing the past is helpful (i think it holds the key for the survival of the Aiel) now the challenge to be faced is bracing for the future. I think when the other WO's learn that Avi went through the ter'angle twice they will travel to Rhuidean and do so as well. whether the ter'angle is now broken or not remains to be seen; but for the benifit od the world, Rand should be allowed to take this journey before T'A'G.

 

 

now, the two things that i said must happen will be hard to accomplish, and i've thought over this all night. this is what i've come up with

 

 

1. getting the WO channelers back

 

the problem with this is how the 'chan veiw channelers; their treated worse than animals but are considered the most precious commodity over there. no bargin, no truce will get them to let go of the damane. There is one key to this, something we've know for quiet a while. Sul'Dam can channel, this is why they are able to control the Damane. which means Tuon can channel as well. Rand must show & tell the 'chan this. in a sense, he must break their culture like he broke the Aiel back in tSR. if this can be done, and Egwene can strike a deal with the 'chan much like what was reached with the Folk & WO to train eachother as equals, then this is the best possible solution for unleashing all of the Folk, WO's & AS. Tuon being able to channel is the key in this, and i fear the only way to accomplish this is to collar her and a bunch of other Sul'dam.

 

 

2. place for the Aiel after T'A'G

 

the answer to this lies both in prophecy and in the past imo. first is the prophecy of "He Who Comes with the Dawn". this prophecy stated "he will break the Aeil and a remnate of a remnate shall remain" i don't beleive this prophecy has been fullfilled, right now there is only a remnate of the Aiel remaining that isn't broken of mind & spirit (ie: the shiado and the hopeless). this remnate that remains is broken into two sides, those that still fight and those that have turned gai'shan for good.

 

in the future that is comming, it's basically an industrial revolution. in a society with guns, warriors with spears will become obsolete. because of this, i believe the remnate of the remnate are those that have picked up the white, those that have returned to the way of the leaf. this is the only way for the Aiel to secure a place in the future and not become obsolete. i believe, that after T'A'G, those that have become perminate gia'shan will join with the Tinkers because of their past. the tinkers will find their song (via Rand) and will have need of a permanite home port and people.

 

you may scoff at this, but think back to the past, think back to what Rand saw when he went to Rhuidean. the Aiel he saw in the Age of Legend were gia'shan, and held in the highest esteem. they were reverred among all cultures; including those warriors we saw who wore the 'chan armor. Avi sw this, as did all the WO's; they must work together to understand that this is the best way to prevent a world that Avi saw; because in a world like that if the DO's prison is broken into again ... sightblinder is sure to win.

 

 

yes, the aiel must fight in T'A'G. but after the war they must shed their spears and swallow their pride; take the white and pay back all the toh they owe to their ancestors.

 

 

 

 

as to the ter'angle, i have one last theory about its function. with Rand it worked it's way back to the start of the 3rd age, with Avendah it show her basically the entire 4th age (the age after T'A'G), the age ending not only with the last aiel but with the starting of mass transiet (the talk about the rail system commign into the waste) it put me in mind of "west-ward" expansion here in the states, when we built the railroad from coast to coast and changed the USA for ever. this i believe is the end of the 4th Age, because of the advance of technology. which makes me think that Ages don't end & begin with the DO, but with the advances made in technology; but major turning points in Randland are because of the DO.

 

to me, this means that Rand will seal the DO, and many ages of peace without fear of him touching the world will come, until the Age of Legends (probably the 3 or 4 ages from what Avi saw) comes again and they once again bore into the DO prision yet again, starting the events over.

[Declan]

The answer is simple: Get Tuon (Fortuna) in a situation where she MUST channel to save her life, she will no matter how much she dislikes the idea. That should be enough to force Seanchan attitudes to change, afterall their god-like empress being a Damane isn't viable when there is no one left to replace her and the world is literally at its end.

 

That or stop everyone from managing to die young, we KNOW Avi is in the final scene, all she has to do to stop that fighting is to not get herself killed, channelers live long lives.

 

It wouldn't be that simple. For all their talk of the "the empress, may she live forever" the Seanchan are worse than the Cairhienin when it comes to plotting and they have no problem with assassination attempts.

 

I haven't had time to read the whole thread but did anyone else think that these visions of Aviendha's may have been fabricated? We've seen Ter'angreal manipulated before and if the columns are anything like other Ter'angreal no one from the current Age really knows how they work.

 

They make sense though. The Aiel were excluded from the treaty because they are a free people and need to figure out how to go on by themselves. What they need to figure out is the way of the leaf, or the Seanchan will destroy them all.

 

Also I think the woman she met was of the Jenn Aiel - the clan that is not.

 

I like your thought of how the woman is a Jenn Aiel. something just doesn't ring true to me to think that she is just some random dark friend. Supposing that it is some random dark friend that means that she was ordered by someone higher (possibly forsaken) to talk to her; wouldn't it be much much better to just kill her if you are a forsaken? They all know Rand cares for her and that she is important. The time of dark friends just trying to manipulate people has ended. I think they are just trying to cut their losses so to speak by killing as many high ups as possible (including Mat and Perrin).

 

It does make sense for the Aiel to have to learn the Way because there is no other certain way around the vision without that. With the given information I think.

[Declan]

I have heard a lot of people talk about how once Rand reveals that all Sul'dam can channel it will break the Seanchan. I am not so confident in this. In TGS (im pretty sure) Mat reveals the same thing to Tuon but she just comes back with "but I choose not to" or something very close. So yes it might make other high leaders of the Seanchan rebel or try and assassinate Tuon because they see her as a marath'damane but she will not be phased by it.

 

Anyways, I am not going to rely on something like that happening since in Aviendha's vision the seanchan are still an empire and what makes you think someone didn't tell them about that little tidbit to try and cause unrest?

 

If Tuon does at some point touch the source and feel its awesomeness i think there is a better chance of her unleashing people because then she will understand what it is like. She will won't be able to stop either since it is so addicting.

[Red2111]

see i disagree, your thinking to narrowly about this.

 

think back to tSR when Rand breaks the Aiel. the clan cheifs & WO's knew that the Aiel had come from the Tinkers, yet the Aiel on a whole dispised the tinkers for what they were. When the mass of Aiel learned that their ancestors practiced the WOL it broke thime, body/mind/spirit. some refused to believe, some went insane, the rest remained strong, believed, accepted and dealt with it.

 

now, think of the 'chan; of how they veiw the channelers, of how they deal with the channelers

 

the way they control natural born channelers is by leashing them, yet the only peopel that can become suldam are those who can learn how to channel. it underminds the entire system that makes them feel so safe from those they believe broke the world. while tuon doesn't seem phased by this realization, she does understand that it will have a bad effect on her people and possibly break the empire.

 

yes, there will be a few (like the Wo & Clan Cheifs) among the 'chan that are strong enough to deal with this realization. but their society on the whole?? it would break them like it did the Aiel. because everyon knows that only those who've touched the source can be collared, the only way to prove this is to show that the collars work on the suldam as well. once the 'chan realize dominating & enslaving those who can channel wont work they have two options. execute all channelers and therefore lose any advantage militarily against the other nations; or accept this and work together with the nations, taking their place under Rands rule.

 

 

i do agree that because they are still an empire and chaining women, no one told this to the 'chan. which is why i say it MUST be done to prevent that future from becomming reality. and that Tuon touchignthe source is vital to this

 

 

i'm doing a read of the thread right now, but i have some more ideals i would like to post & clarify about what Avi saw and the implications of it.

[Rand Skywalker]

I think it was also a mistake for Rand to kneel because I presume (perhaps wrongly) the Seanchan will lend their armies against the DO after he does so, which is why we see so many Aiel so soon after TG. I didn't know what to make of 11 clans in Avi's daughter's vision--they got through the conflict without the mass-casualties I expected from the "remnant of a remnant." I can see Rand kneeling to Tuon in order to spread the responsibility a bit and prevent his Aiel from taking the heaviest load of the fighting (which is perhaps what they are "supposed" to do).

[randsc]

The future Avi sees depends on two prerequisites:

 

1. The Dragon imposes a world-wide peace treaty;

 

2. The Aeil are left outside of/break the peace treaty.

 

People seem to be focusing on preventing the horrible future by eliminating the second prerequiste.

 

How about eliminating the first? No Peace of the Dragon.

 

Grand, pre-emptive treaties to prevent all future war and conflict fail. Always. War is part of the human condition, and will be as long as there is a food chain.

 

Jordan certainly knew this. Whether Sanderson does, I don't know.

[Bob T Dwarf]

The future Avi sees depends on two prerequisites:

 

1. The Dragon imposes a world-wide peace treaty;

 

2. The Aeil are left outside of/break the peace treaty.

 

People seem to be focusing on preventing the horrible future by eliminating the second prerequiste.

 

How about eliminating the first? No Peace of the Dragon.

 

Grand, pre-emptive treaties to prevent all future war and conflict fail. Always. War is part of the human condition, and will be as long as there is a food chain.

 

Jordan certainly knew this. Whether Sanderson does, I don't know.

 

Hmmmmm... good point about the food chain.

 

I doubt that something as pivotal as how this universe progresses would have been left out of Jordan's notes. If there is a Dragon's Peace, it'll be because Jordan wanted it.

[Red2111]

okay i've read the thread, and yes some of this is repeated, but here are the major points i saw addressed in this thread and i feel the need to add my 2 cents

 

 

body-swap theory

 

personally, i never saw the evidence for this. i cant even see the possability of Mordin comming to fight on Rands side honestly. it woudl be nice to have him on the good guys side, but he's way to corrupted by the TS to be of any real use.

 

granted, the dark haired children give some pause, but i have two theorys of my own

 

1. there Mins children. in this "veiwing" of Avi, we see both her kids & Elyanes, yet Min's children are missing. since Avi & Min are sister-wives, it could be that Avi adopts the children as her own because Min like dies in childbirth or something. it coudl be that Avi & min are pregnate at the same time (after the LB) and this results in Avi having "quadruplets" and why something seems wierd about them in the original veiwing.

 

2. (much more plausable) just because both Rand & Avi are redheads doesn't mean his children are guarenteed to have red hair. take it from an actual red head (points to self) its a resessive gene. galad is rands half brother, Galad has black hair. Galad & Rands mother had black hair; hence Rand harbors both genes for red hair & black hair. because both of Avi's parents are redheads it's good to assume that their offspring will be 3/4ths as likely to be born with read hair (hair genes: avi = R/R while rand = R/B with R being the dominate). since Avi has 4 children, theoretically 1 out of every 4 offspring will have a greater potential of being born with black hair.

 

as for the wierd thing, being able to touch the source from birth as these children can, i think this is what caused Mins veiwing to show something odd about them. when Avi gets pregnate, it is after Rand has offically become the true DR, when he has reached his full potential and is certain of what he must do, he has also touched the TS at this point. this, i think, is what is the cause of her children being born and already able to reach the source instead of having to "snap" into it.

 

 

Where's Rand

 

while the memories shows that Avi's great grand daughter atleast remembers her face, we can see that Rands direct children have no memory of him. this suggests that he either dies during the battle, or soon after. Seeing that Rhuarc's (sp) son remembers rand, i'm guessing it's soon after (maybe 5 or 10 years)

 

i think he was overcome by the maddness, it just took longer because of who he's become and how powerfull he is. remember early on in the book, when Nyn delved into Rand. the maddness was covereing ALL of his brain, and there was a silvery/white substances (like a barrier) between his brain and the maddness. The silvery/white thing is preventing Rand from being overcome by the maddness, and due to its sheer size, i doubt Nyn could heal it even if she was linked in a cirlce of 13. infact, because of it's size, removing it might actually kill him. it's like a tumor, and this is true of tumors as well.

 

 

 

Solution for the Aiel after the LB

i heard many mentions of them becomming guardians of the dragons piece. i like this idea, it meeshes well with what i believe will become of them for them to survive.

 

it's pretty clear that most agree, for the Aiel to survive as a people they must due away with the life of a warrior and become the type of Aiel that we saw in the AoL. it's also clear that many (liek the first breaking of the Aiel) will refuse to believe this and cast aside their spears. again i site the orignal prophecy "he shall break the Aiel, only a of a Remnate of a Remnate will survive" imo, this implies that the Aiel will be broken twice. Once, to the great toh the have earned by picking up the spears; the second breaking will occur after T'A'G, where they are asked to set those spears aside perminately and return to the WoL.

 

many of those who accepted the first still refuse to set their spears aside, this is where the split occurs; of those that are left, the minority will follow Avi in returning to the WoL. yet if the Aiel remain as they are the future we saw will still come true. Rand will demand a piece of the nations, but it will be hard to enforce this. i think, in order to keep the Aiel a place in society he will name those worrior aiel "Defendors of the Peace" and they will act as the Death watch does for the 'chan. these worriors will have to and be able to conform to the different technolgies, to keep the peace when guns evolve they'll cast their spears aside for the muzzles. eventually, they'll become soemthing other than the Aiel and meald into society.

 

the portion which takes up the WoL will become like those we saw in the AoL; keeping to the ji'eh'toh, keeping the name Aiel, and becomming reverred among everyone.

 

 

What Avi saw

this was mentioned as well. in the earlier books (tGH i think) we were eposed to alternate realities. when we were exposed to this, some felt more real than others, while those that were less likely to occur were often bleak and colorless. i think what Avi saw was 1 of 2 of the lickliest possabilities that would occur from a single pivital turning point: Rand not binding Tuon to him.

 

it seems like this is a pivital turning point for the future with only 2 possable outcomes.

 

Rand bows = future Avi saw

Rand doesn't bow = the future that should be for the light to win again.

 

if Rand takes mat with him, i wont be surprised if Mat has the dice rolling in his head and they stop once Rand either bends Tuon or Tuon bends Rand; as this one event has a direct impact ont eh future of randland.

 

 

Why did Avi see this future and not the other

its because of the nature of the ter'angle imo. like i said before, i think this is the job of the ter'angle, to show the past (which is set) , the other is to show the possible future. thsi ter'angle is much like the one for raising novices & accepted, yet it doesn't have to be channeled into to give it life. as Avi said, it feels like it is alive. i think it's able to read both the emotions and needs of the people who enter it, which is why it shows you your direct ancestry.

 

Avi touching it let the Ter'angle delve deeper into her needs, it heard her pleas and answered. my guess is that the ter'Angle was able to tap the Rand and events surrounding his choices though the Bond. it focused on the most pivitol turning point for Avi. i think Avi saw the bleak future because of what was in her heart. she wants the Aiel to survive, to live on; so the ter'angle gave her the answers she needed to ensure she could attempt to make sure that future never happened. had she been a dark friend, or wanted the aiel to become dead, i think she woudl have seen the other future to know what events she woudl need to prevent.

 

 

How likely is this future

 

imo, not likely at all now. Min has assured us of this because of her veiwings of peopel surviving and doing great things and reverring the draong fang and such (when she traveled with Rand to that city and she saw all of those veiwings)

 

this happened after Avi traveled to Rhuidean, which means the choice has been made, and Avi will succeed in preventing the bleak future.

 

but had Avi not seen this future, i'm thinking Min's veiwings would have been different. Avi needed to see those, so Rand knew the implications of setting the 'chan off to deal with another day. it was clear before these veiwings that rands decission on how to dela witht he 'chan was a turning stone for the way things woudl end up. it's a choice between the easy (dealing with them later) or the hard (dealing with them now). this has effectively made his mind up for him.

 

 

How to prevent that future

 

two things must happen. Rand must bend the 'chan and place himself higher than them, and the Aiel must find a new niche after the LB.

 

sadly people seem to think Avi not having kids is an answer, this is not the case. if the 'chan are not dealt with properly, the 'chan will still attempt to conquor randland later. the children of Avi & Rand were reguarded with high esteem and their opinion valued because of their blood line, but we see that even without their imput other Aiel were already deciding war with the 'chan was the only option.

 

as it stand now, the Aiel are on the brink of considering it a 'blood-fued" (for lack of a better term) between the 'chan because of the chained WO's. they have 1 year & 1 day due to the WO's being captured, but after that it will come to war. Rand must realize this and make moves to prempt this. both sides will have to sacrifice for this future not to become real

 

'chan - stop chaining channelers

Aiel - give up the spear for good

 

and the most pivitol decision that is made which will set these events into motion is Rand not bowing to Tuon

 

 

Why so many clans left

 

this comes from not being broken a 2nd time and is, imo, proof that the prophecy has not been fulfilled. Rand has bent knee to the 'chan deciding to deal with them later, no one has exposed the sul'dam can channel to the mass 'chan populace, and no one has discovered that for the aiel to continue to exist they must put aside their spears.

 

 

 

Timeline for Avi's veiwing

 

(measured in generations born from T'A'G)

 

1st Generation

 

18-20 years after T'A'G. Aiel begin a war with the 'chan to recover chained channlers.

 

 

2nd Generation

 

aiel convince wetlanders to join war against 'chan under false pretenses due to an invasion of Rhuidean.

 

 

4th Generation

 

'chan have continued and secueeded in their conquest (spurred into action because of the 2nd generations actions) they have caputued many channelers and collared them, the 'chan have declared a mass genocide agaisnt the aiel, rhuidean has been destroyed, preventing the aiel from raising up good stron leaders. last lst of Rand's direct blood line dies.

 

 

7th Generation (my best guess)

 

Aiel are scattered & defeated as warriors, they've been pushed back to the spine of the world most likely because the 'chan have conquored randland and they have few wetlander allies left to help them fight. guns are made, making the aiel warriors offically obsolete and easier to kill.

 

 

9th Generation

 

the aiel as a society have been exterminated, small scattered groups remain but most have either been killed or mealded into society. the 'chan have a secure and dominate hold on Randland and there is no more rebellion against their rule. electricity and cars have been devloped, the industrial age is most likely at it's peak, the new age is probably about to come to an end. the illuminated ones are most liekly channelers, since guns make channeling obsolete as well their abilities are put to a different use.

 

 

10th or 11th Generation (my best guess)

 

this is the fate of the Aiel. very few remain, those that do are looked on a scavenger feral dogs and put out of their misery. it's doubtful with the westward expansion of the railroad that the aiel will live much longer and those who are still around will die off leaving no leanage. i believe the Lightmakers are channelers.

[Red2111]

The future Avi sees depends on two prerequisites:

 

1. The Dragon imposes a world-wide peace treaty;

 

2. The Aeil are left outside of/break the peace treaty.

 

People seem to be focusing on preventing the horrible future by eliminating the second prerequiste.

 

How about eliminating the first? No Peace of the Dragon.

 

Grand, pre-emptive treaties to prevent all future war and conflict fail. Always. War is part of the human condition, and will be as long as there is a food chain.

 

Jordan certainly knew this. Whether Sanderson does, I don't know.

 

 

i agree for the most part. but you overlook the importance the 'chan have in this world Avi saw. even if there is no "Peace of the Dragon" , like others have said, if the 'chan are not dealt with properly they will eventually return to conquore Randland and when that happens the future Avi saw will still happen (as that future indicated 'chan rule)

 

 

if Rand is able to tie the 'chan to randland effectively then there shouldn't be a need for "Peace of the Draong" on a large scale. i think the only reason he woudl need to decree that is because the 'chan still intend to conquor randland, and the wetlanders still view them as invaders.

 

but if he's able to take a leaf out of Egwenes book, how she effectively tied the Wo, Tower & Folk together; then there woudln't be a need for decreeing "Peace of the Dragon"

[Guest bloodcaller]

Just a thought perhaps this is a time to balance the three thousand years of male channelers hunted and killed while females channelers ruled. Maybe it is a new age for male channelers to rule. Just a weird fork in the road.

[Emily_Sedai]

 

On a side note, the Randland nations records for dealing with channelers wasn't much better at times, and frequently worse. Amador anyone? Tear? Egwene even laments that Aes Sedai aren't exactly respected in most nations, thanks mainly to their inteference with other nations, to the point that Elaida felt 'justified' kidnapping various rulers. Perhaps the Seanchan Empire, and its people, feel it's justfied to leash channelers in order to provide stability to the Empire, and stability to its people. Why have the people of conquered Seanchan lands been so quick to accept the invaders, even if they disagree with the leashing of channelers? Why are the tinkers so eager to enter Seanchan controlled lands?

 

Are you actually serious? You're using the Children of Light as an example of the level of morality people should be judged against? You're using Elaida as a ruler to be compared to? There have been some weak arguments over the years defending the Seanchan (somewhat necessarily, since there aren't any strong ones), but that's near the top. People are judged based on their own actions, not based on the fact that there are other shitty assholes out there too. It's not a question of whether they "feel" justified about torturing and enslaving people, but whether they "are" justified in doing so. The Nazis felt that they were justified in exterminating the Jews, the Soviets felt that they were justified in wiping out anyone who disagree with the Party, the Tutsis felt that they were justified in slaughtering all the Hutus. Everyone who does something evil feels that they are justified in doing so - the question is whether or not they are right. In the Seanchan's case, the answer is a definitive no.

 

In terms of the Tinkers, they do well in a fascist society since they no their place and don't try to make anything out of their lives outside of their predetermined place, so nobody bothers them. Unless of course, they look at someone funny. Or they get in someone's way and don't move aside quickly enough. Or someone's bored and decides to send some soldiers to to kill a bunch of them for kicks. The same holds true for others - fascists are very good at providing order and security at the expense of everything else - it's kind of their entire thing. If you're not interested in doing anything except what the government tells you to do and don't mind someone kicking down your door in the middle of the night because you might have said something that slightly differs from official government policy in the hearing of someone who'd talk to one of the numerous secret police who'll execute your entire family based on a rumour of disorder, then you'll have a lovely time in a society like that. On the other hand, if that's not your idea of a fun time, you might want to try somewhere else.

 

The Seanchan suck in every way, shape and form. The only thing that Avi's vision does is help demonstrate the society that the books have been writing about.

 

Tom, is the world always black and white?

 

Again, are the Aiel as evil as the Seanchan? They're slave traders you know. They also went to war over a perceived slight, killing God knows how many in the pursuit of Lamen. Do they suck in every way, shape, and form as well? They also once watched a wetlander wander the waste searching for something, only deeming to aid her once it was obvious that she was dying and they were curious about why she was there. Is that a good example of humanity?

 

I was using Amador et all as examples that evil cultures appear in Randland as well, even in beloved Andor. How close was Andor to being ruled by Amyrilla (or however you spell her name, I don't much feel like looking it up at the moment)? What do you think the country would have been like under her as a monarch, especially as she decides that mercenaries shouldn't be paid, and squeezing the people to pay for her war is perfectly acceptable?

 

Answer just the one question though: Do the Aiel suck in every way, shape, and form as well?

[PatsNats28]

If the Seanchan got rid of slavery, they're okay with me... just a bit weird with the omens and everything.

[Emily_Sedai]

If the Seanchan got rid of slavery, they're okay with me... just a bit weird with the omens and everything.

 

Well, two things. The aiel take slaves, and it didn't take much for their largest group to jump on the slavery band wagon... and some of their customs are pretty out there too... think about Rand trying to learn all of the Aiel customs, and Egween learning the tons of different things that wise ones need to know. Every culture has oddities, especially when viewed by outsiders! :)

[PatsNats28]

Haha I know they're weird too.

 

If by slaves you mean gai'shain, that's a bit different. The Aiel kinda prescribe to the whole concept of ji'e'toh, technically, a gai'shain could escape, they'd just be ostracized from Aiel society. And the Shaido don't count, they're rebelling (are they still alive?).

[Emily_Sedai]

Haha I know they're weird too.

 

If by slaves you mean gai'shain, that's a bit different. The Aiel kinda prescribe to the whole concept of ji'e'toh, technically, a gai'shain could escape, they'd just be ostracized from Aiel society. And the Shaido don't count, they're rebelling (are they still alive?).

 

Well, the slaves I meant earlier are the Cairhein they capture and sell to Shara, not the Gai'shain. As for the Shaido, there are some still alive, and I'm sure they still call themselves Aiel *laugh* I just meant that it didn't take much for an Aiel clan to decide that slavery is just peachy keen in light of the gai'shain tradition.

[Kidicaris]

The answer is simple: Get Tuon (Fortuna) in a situation where she MUST channel to save her life, she will no matter how much she dislikes the idea. That should be enough to force Seanchan attitudes to change, afterall their god-like empress being a Damane isn't viable when there is no one left to replace her and the world is literally at its end.

 

I posted this in another thread, but This Aviendha thread is where all the hot Seanchan talk is so:

 

One wonders how much actual good it would do to prove Tuon can channel. I would think that Fortuona May She Live Forever, would be quickly and quietly removed as Empress by every and any of the High Blood if it is discovered she's actually marath'damane, an animal, less than a slave. They sure have a lot of rules for how you interact with those higher than yourself, but one thing is true of Seanchan's Machiavellian society, it's that if you're going to strike at someone higher than yourself, the worst thing you can do is lose. So, Fortuona, May She Live Forever, is not immune to her own society's customs and laws, she's just more protected than most from her enemies.

 

Let us not forget the intrinsic significance the damane are to the Seanchan Empire. They are all property of the throne, and are only lent out based on imperial favor. They are the crux of the Crystal Throne's domination over their entire continent. They are the reason why Seanchan is so stable now and forever. Any civil war is quickly ended by lightning and explosions. Indeed any potential civil unrest would be quickly crushed by the presence of damane. Randland could ask the Seanchan to release the damane, but the damane themselves believe they are unbelievably dangerous property, tactical nukes ready to blow. Do you think now that Traveling has been discovered that the Crystal Throne will EVER let go of their pets?

 

I don't know how RJ/BS intends to write this, because it is clear that the revelation that sul'dam can channel is where we are going. Can the revelation that the Empress herself can channel sway the Seanchan people away from a deeply ingrained cultural belief that has its roots in a time BEFORE Luthair even sailed west? I will have to rafo. I wonder if Tuon doesn't jump off the highest tower in Ebou Dar the same day she learns she is actually one of the very creatures she views as her prized trained pets.

 

Can Tuon's status as Empress, May She Live Forever, protect her from all the hungry Blood if it is revealed she's a dangerous animal? We shall see.