Rand & Egwene (Full Spoilers)

[Dunedain Fal]

I was disappointed that Nyn' didn't mention to Egwene that Rand is perfectly sane again.

 

He is not. He still has that darkness thing in his brain (shown to us when Nyneave delved into his brain). Until that darkness thing goes, he is still insane. For some reason, the Pattern has given him something to battle that darkness in his brain, that pulsating light. It seems to me that the Creator had, indirectly, intervened in the Pattern by giving him some protection against the darkness thing.

[Sharaman]

I was disappointed that Nyn' didn't mention to Egwene that Rand is perfectly sane again.

 

He is not. He still has that darkness thing in his brain (shown to us when Nyneave delved into his brain). Until that darkness thing goes, he is still insane. For some reason, the Pattern has given him something to battle that darkness in his brain, that pulsating light. It seems to me that the Creator had, indirectly, intervened in the Pattern by giving him some protection against the darkness thing.

Rand has reached a balance of insanity. He's not sane but he can second-guess his own lunacy and control his more insane impulses.

I wonder if that light is an "always on" source and Rand-LTT is holding the source continuously?

Nyn has never delved anybody actually holding the source.

[Elend]

Hmmm. I'm an Egwene hater and maybe its because I entered ToM convincing myself that she wouldn't be horrible in her PoV this book while still feeling good about her from KoD and TGS, but I really still don't feel annoyed at all with her. I understand her reasons, even if she's ultimately wrong. And I think her actions will still cause good rather than harm- the Pattern wants this meeting to happen.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Hmmm. I'm an Egwene hater and maybe its because I entered ToM convincing myself that she wouldn't be horrible in her PoV this book while still feeling good about her from KoD and TGS, but I really still don't feel annoyed at all with her. I understand her reasons, even if she's ultimately wrong. And I think her actions will still cause good rather than harm- the Pattern wants this meeting to happen.

 

It was actually Rand who made it happen. He was counting on Egwene resisiting. He wanted her to gather all of the nations etc.. So it is more Rand's manipulation than the Pattern. Or you could say that Rand did the patterns will if you want. So in Egwene's defence, Rand wanted her to do exactly what she is doing, which will lead to something good.

 

For that, I dont mind, she did what Rand knew she would, and that she thinks its right. The thing that annoys me about the whole thing is that even though Rand did it to her, she went about it the wrong way. She gathered armies to undermine Rand's control, possibly provoking war, trying to control the Dragon Reborn. She did nothing to actually look for an alternative plan, unlike in the AoL. She just trries to stop Rand. She should be looking through Tower writings to try and find ways of sealing the DO.

[Elend]

Hmmm. I'm an Egwene hater and maybe its because I entered ToM convincing myself that she wouldn't be horrible in her PoV this book while still feeling good about her from KoD and TGS, but I really still don't feel annoyed at all with her. I understand her reasons, even if she's ultimately wrong. And I think her actions will still cause good rather than harm- the Pattern wants this meeting to happen.

 

It was actually Rand who made it happen. He was counting on Egwene resisiting. He wanted her to gather all of the nations etc.. So it is more Rand's manipulation than the Pattern. Or you could say that Rand did the patterns will if you want. So in Egwene's defence, Rand wanted her to do exactly what she is doing, which will lead to something good.

 

For that, I dont mind, she did what Rand knew she would, and that she thinks its right. The thing that annoys me about the whole thing is that even though Rand did it to her, she went about it the wrong way. She gathered armies to undermine Rand's control, possibly provoking war, trying to control the Dragon Reborn. She did nothing to actually look for an alternative plan, unlike in the AoL. She just trries to stop Rand. She should be looking through Tower writings to try and find ways of sealing the DO.

 

We don't know that armies are a bad thing though. Even if he doesn't want them, its possible the Pattern does. I predict the Seanchan attack during this Assembly and the fact that the armies are there saves Tar Valon. The Dragon's Peace mentioned in Avi's PoV could very well be forged at this meeting due to the failed attack (raw ta'veren power could stop a battle from happening, particularly if Mat shows up).

 

As far as manipulations go, Rand is a tool of the Pattern. So is Egwene. Her gathering of armies is as much a part of the Pattern as Rand.

 

Egwene... I'm a hater except in the recent books. I did find some of the things she did distasteful and her arrogance drives me crazy. This book's Egwene wasn't as awesome as TGS Egwene. But I didn't find her actions her entirely uncalled for, unlike practically everything else she's done regarding Rand (or thought of doing more often than not) in the last few books.

 

I also think we need to consider the possibility that the bulk of Rand's allies will actually side with him. They could all be showing up to shove it in Egwene's face that they really no longer care about the White Tower. That'd be a pretty cool scene, no?

[Barid Bel Medar]

Hmmm. I'm an Egwene hater and maybe its because I entered ToM convincing myself that she wouldn't be horrible in her PoV this book while still feeling good about her from KoD and TGS, but I really still don't feel annoyed at all with her. I understand her reasons, even if she's ultimately wrong. And I think her actions will still cause good rather than harm- the Pattern wants this meeting to happen.

 

It was actually Rand who made it happen. He was counting on Egwene resisiting. He wanted her to gather all of the nations etc.. So it is more Rand's manipulation than the Pattern. Or you could say that Rand did the patterns will if you want. So in Egwene's defence, Rand wanted her to do exactly what she is doing, which will lead to something good.

 

For that, I dont mind, she did what Rand knew she would, and that she thinks its right. The thing that annoys me about the whole thing is that even though Rand did it to her, she went about it the wrong way. She gathered armies to undermine Rand's control, possibly provoking war, trying to control the Dragon Reborn. She did nothing to actually look for an alternative plan, unlike in the AoL. She just trries to stop Rand. She should be looking through Tower writings to try and find ways of sealing the DO.

 

We don't know that armies are a bad thing though. Even if he doesn't want them, its possible the Pattern does. I predict the Seanchan attack during this Assembly and the fact that the armies are there saves Tar Valon. The Dragon's Peace mentioned in Avi's PoV could very well be forged at this meeting due to the failed attack (raw ta'veren power could stop a battle from happening, particularly if Mat shows up).

 

As far as manipulations go, Rand is a tool of the Pattern. So is Egwene. Her gathering of armies is as much a part of the Pattern as Rand.

 

Egwene... I'm a hater except in the recent books. I did find some of the things she did distasteful and her arrogance drives me crazy. This book's Egwene wasn't as awesome as TGS Egwene. But I didn't find her actions her entirely uncalled for, unlike practically everything else she's done regarding Rand (or thought of doing more often than not) in the last few books.

 

I also think we need to consider the possibility that the bulk of Rand's allies will actually side with him. They could all be showing up to shove it in Egwene's face that they really no longer care about the White Tower. That'd be a pretty cool scene, no?

 

Your still missing my point entirely.

 

Rand wants her to gather everyone, he knows she will, this was the easiest way to gather them together while he could do other stuff. The thing with me is that she just assumes she is right, and is trying to bring him under control, instead of researching other methods for helping him seal the bore. Instead, she jsut says, no, I wont let you do it. Its infinitely stupid. She should be preparing to seal the bore or shut up and trust Rand knows what he is doing.

[Elend]

Ahhh, I see what you mean now.

 

I look at it like this. Why should she trust Rand? He is the Dragon, yes, but she also has a purpose in the Pattern. For all she knows resisting him is the will of the Pattern. The Pattern spun her out to act as she does, just as it did Latra all those millenia ago. I don't blame her for this- its a necessary attitude for her to have for things to happen as they do. The fact that his ta'veren nature didn't mess with her is confirmation of this, IMO.

 

She's similar to Rand, caught up in the Pattern's needs. I think even if she considered the opposite something would happen to put her back on the path she's on. I think this is why she isn't considering alternatives, either. The Pattern is gently nudging her so she can't, by putting Bloodknives into the Tower and Messy right under her nose, throwing Perrin at her, putting Gawyn near her. Not letting her think for a moment.

 

Now, her arrogance in everything else? I agree with you. This strikes me as much more Pattern influenced, though.

 

On a completely different note, and truer to my Egwene-hater roots, I thought she seemed very Rand-lite during this book. And not Super Rand, more like a kinda Darth Rand. I can't think of anything specific, but the willingness to use people like that and generally how she's taking everything onto herself makes me think of him.

[ajfurst]

Without going into whether Rand and Egwene are doing the right things re the Seals, the new leadership styles of the two are markedly different. Rand post TGS realises everyone must be respected, even if he disagrees with them. That sometimes he needs to command, but not undermine. His leadership style is everything Egwene's is not.

 

In TOM Egwene truly becomes Aes Sedai - in all the worst sense of post AOL Aes Sedai. Manipulative, dismissive of a man in command, the need to be in control, the Aes Sedai top of the tree, etc. If TGS Rand and Egwene's storylines could be about how wrong the former was and how right the latter were until they both came to the same place at the end of TGS, then IMO in TOM the two swapped right over as Rand went markedly up in my eyes, whilst all the gains Egwene made in TGS as a character fell by the wayside. Christ I even felt sorry for Gawyn, and he topped my list of non red-shirt characters I've wanted to see die the last few books.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Ahhh, I see what you mean now.

 

I look at it like this. Why should she trust Rand? He is the Dragon, yes, but she also has a purpose in the Pattern. For all she knows resisting him is the will of the Pattern. The Pattern spun her out to act as she does, just as it did Latra all those millenia ago. I don't blame her for this- its a necessary attitude for her to have for things to happen as they do. The fact that his ta'veren nature didn't mess with her is confirmation of this, IMO.

 

She's similar to Rand, caught up in the Pattern's needs. I think even if she considered the opposite something would happen to put her back on the path she's on. I think this is why she isn't considering alternatives, either. The Pattern is gently nudging her so she can't, by putting Bloodknives into the Tower and Messy right under her nose, throwing Perrin at her, putting Gawyn near her. Not letting her think for a moment.

 

Now, her arrogance in everything else? I agree with you. This strikes me as much more Pattern influenced, though.

 

On a completely different note, and truer to my Egwene-hater roots, I thought she seemed very Rand-lite during this book. And not Super Rand, more like a kinda Darth Rand. I can't think of anything specific, but the willingness to use people like that and generally how she's taking everything onto herself makes me think of him.

 

I do agree with you here. It most likely was the Pattern that didnt allow her time to do anything, but it cant control her own thinking. She should have at lesat thought "how can we do this differently, must try when I get the time." Her state of mind is terrible, and as you say, shes becomming what Rand was. I think that it wont be Rand who puts her in her place, but the rest of the world, as you said earlier.

 

So far we have Perrin,Cadsuane, Nynaeve, Borderlands, Asha'man (those not loyal to Taim), Arad Doman and the Aiel on Rand's side of this "debate". They will be the ones that put her in her place.

 

On Egwene's side we have the White Tower, Andor, Cairhien.

 

Neutral/undecided are: Tear,Illian, Murandy, Mat, Moiraine, Seanchan (although not sure if that would count).

 

Moiraine and Mat (with the Band) will almost certainly side with Rand. Mat will realise just like Perrin (due to connection) and Moiraine will understand the importance of the breaking of seals. Darlin I am thinking will side with no-one for the time being. He will wait until things have been explained. Illian I think will side with Rand, when Mattin Septanos is revealed. He wont be too happy with the Tower, and I supsect that will anger the Illianers aswell. Murandy is a wildcard, could be Demandred's doing, or something else. The Seanchan also are wildcards, I dont think they will be included in Rand V Egwene. they will come in later.

 

All in all, it looks like Egwene is outnumbered, and once the majority rise up for the Dragon, she will learn. (one can hope)

[Elend]

Ta'veren powers basically make me certain the majority will side with Rand unless his plan is actually flawed in some manner. Even if its just down to poor timing for the actual breaking. I think its entirely possible every last nation not ruled by a Darkfriend will side with him. And those ruled by Darkfriends will suddenly have rulers going crazy due to his presence.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Ta'veren powers basically make me certain the majority will side with Rand unless his plan is actually flawed in some manner. Even if its just down to poor timing for the actual breaking. I think its entirely possible every last nation not ruled by a Darkfriend will side with him. And those ruled by Darkfriends will suddenly have rulers going crazy due to his presence.

 

Yeahhh, specially with Mat and Perrin at his side.

 

And to be honest, I think even Egwene will see the right of it. Not be shot down by everyone else. Rand didnt reveal his plans specifically for the purpose of this grand meeting. Once he does explain, I believe she will understand. Elyane will also, Egwene manipulated her to gain Andor and Cairhien support against Rand. She only knows what Egwene told her. Once she actually hears whats going down, I think she will trust Rand.

 

ON another note, what leaders ARE DF's now? Andor and Cairhien are Elayne. Darlin for Tear. Asalam for Arad Doman (if he is alright, if not , Rodel is there) Illian, well, Rand is King there. Seanchan is ruled by Fortuna, Aiel are pretty much led by Rand. Borderlanders could be, but Rand probably would have known the same as the Tarien lords. Galad is with the whitecloaks. That leaves Murandy only.

 

I hope that he is some kind of Darkfriend, just to mix things up a bit.

[Elend]

I've always liked the idea that Roedral in Murandy is Demandred. Considering Murandy's lack of response to Egwene's request... kinda lends more support to it, I think.

 

Tenobia makes me suspicious. I guess she isn't a Darkfriend unless she can somehow suppress anti-Darkfriend abilities of Rand, though.

 

So, yeah. Murandy. Which I'm almost certain is ruled by the Shadow.

 

But it looks like a good deal of nobility have come. And Rand will certainly drive the Shadow from them, most certainly some DFs there. And BA remnants may be found.

 

ETA: Strategically, Murandy makes a ton of sense for Demandred too, seeing as Trollocs are invading Caemlyn. He can strike from the south-west while the Trollocs take the capital.

[Moon Sedai]

The way Aviendha saw the future is almost as bleak as the shadow winning. The people who win after the war practice slavery and have people being chained like animals is that victory? There are a lot of things to be done and rand should trust people to help him, not follow him blindly.

 

Rand has to disclose his plans and explain what he is going to do to people close to him otherwise aviendha's visions in the ter'angreal would be the fate of mankind in the wheel of time world.

 

I was furious at that future, wanting to spit and scream.

 

All the struggles and battles against the Shadow, for the land to turn into something that feels like a post-apocalypiic/Fallout 3 kind of world?

i was hoping for more of a restoration of the AoL.

 

 

Sorry, realize that rant was slightly off topic.

I think I saw Rand's plan coming, when he was given a seal and LTT told him to break it.

I enjoyed the confrontation. I think that it's fair that Rand gave his plan to the Amyrlin, and not, apparently, to the M'Hael.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I've always liked the idea that Roedral in Murandy is Demandred. Considering Murandy's lack of response to Egwene's request... kinda lends more support to it, I think.

 

Tenobia makes me suspicious. I guess she isn't a Darkfriend unless she can somehow suppress anti-Darkfriend abilities of Rand, though.

 

So, yeah. Murandy. Which I'm almost certain is ruled by the Shadow.

 

But it looks like a good deal of nobility have come. And Rand will certainly drive the Shadow from them, most certainly some DFs there. And BA remnants may be found.

 

Yeah, I do hope that Murandy is shadow-held. I am not sure about Roedean actually being Demandred. Brandon has said that Demandred is the biggest player as far as the Shadow is concerned, and that his locations will pay off big time. I cant see how ruling Murandy, which is pretty small and not really important, would have that effect. I think that Demandred has a hand in it, but I woudl say that he has his hand in other places aswell.

 

Yeah, Tenobia is wild. Note that the ruler in Maradon, the one that was a DF, was Tenobia's favorite. Could mean something? But I agree, I find it hard that she can dodge Rand's superpowers. She is hardly good at keeping her emotions in the first place.

 

Yep to the last point. I think that, as Rand said, the time has come for the final battle to begin. No more spies and traitors, just Light v Shadow in an epic showdown.

[masty]

If rand taverness or pattern is what caused the meeting to happen then it was a very very poor decision from pattern taverness or rand as this is directly responsible for fall of camelyn as most of elaynes forces including the kin are attending the meeting when the attack happens

[TheAngryDruid]

Well, I thought the meeting went OK, but why Rand didn't extend a bit a talk of other things still seems strange to me.

 

Rand was pretty awesome throughout the book, but his failure to deal with the BT (despite having a month to do so) reamins cringeworthy IMHO. Ditto for Egwene on the same subject. Nynaeve gets there and back in one night (and doens't ask Myrelle about it), yet Rand, Egwene, and the Rebel sisters can't seem to communicate at all with each other in over a month? I call WTF?

 

Rand is seriously going to the LB w/out fixing that mess?

 

And Eggy (or Siuan or Byrne) not putting together the Bloodknife thing (especially after Gawyn almost catches one) was also a head scratcher.

[RelentlessAttack]

I had to lol at Egwene during this book.

She's given no real thought or research to how the last battle's going to play out, she's been busy obsessing over the WT and being Aes Sedai, then she just instinctively opposes Rand and tries to turn them against Rand, and wants to try to threaten/intimidate him into not breaking the seals. She's such an ignorant, conceited character, I used to be ok with her, but after this book I just hate her.

 

There are several moments reading her POV where I literally thought to myself, "wow, WTF Egwene"

[NetSlider]

Bureaucratic judo. Rand doesn't have time to gather the monarchs and their armies. He tells Egwene enough to get them together in one place.

She does the job for him. Then, as his PoV indicates, he hopes he can convince them logically, or Ta'veren them, into doing what he wants.

 

Basically that.

 

I do have to point out that Latra was right for the wrong reasons when she refused to take part in LTT's plan, and Egwene's assembly of nations could play upon a similar theme.

 

But Latra didn't help LTT, even unwittingly. How can you draw the parallel here?

 

Because if saidar had been used on the seal it would have been tainted as well. Therefore, Latra was right to oppose the plan- it, ultimately, failed and tainted saidin. Her opposition prevented the tainting of saidar in addition to this.

 

I don't see right as helping the Dragon. I see right as your actions making the situation better than the alternative. Which Latra's do, even though she had no way of knowing it in advance and her own actual objections turned out to be incorrect.

 

Similarly, Egwene is right in that she will be assembling the nations and likely bringing together an actual unified force to fight in the Last Battle. But she's wrong that breaking the seals is a bad plan (we think).

 

Also, we all know that the Bore is larger than it was in the Age of Legends, right? The unsealing will have a pretty large impact compared to back then- the seal patched it, didn't prevent it from growing. They won't have a huge amount of time after breaking the seals to fix things, IMO.

 

Let's not forget that LTT made that choice b/c the access key were lost/stolen/hidden and he felt that using so much power was madness in the first place. It's not like we know that female AS didn't follow LTT b/c they thought it will taint saidar - they were ready to use saidar in direct confrontation with DO by using access keys. So who did favor whom might be in reverse. By forcing LTT hand they at least saved saidar. And being victors of the confrontation wrote history. It's also interesting that Latra is barely mentioned in AS - one would think that she would be elevated to the satus of the Dragon for saving saidar.

[Sharaman]

If rand taverness or pattern is what caused the meeting to happen then it was a very very poor decision from pattern taverness or rand as this is directly responsible for fall of camelyn as most of elaynes forces including the kin are attending the meeting when the attack happens

OTOH, it could mean that the Light can respond with overwhelming force provided somebody Gates out from Caemlyn and tells the armies parked on the Field of M.

Remember Mat thought Caemlyn is a difficult nut to crack. Talmanes is there with the band and he's seen the wolf as well. (Where's Daerid by the way? He and 1/2 the band seem to have totally disappeared.) So if Caemlyn holds out for a bit, the Light can hit back.

[Maji]

 

Let's not forget that LTT made that choice b/c the access key were lost/stolen/hidden and he felt that using so much power was madness in the first place. It's not like we know that female AS didn't follow LTT b/c they thought it will taint saidar - they were ready to use saidar in direct confrontation with DO by using access keys. So who did favor whom might be in reverse. By forcing LTT hand they at least saved saidar. And being victors of the confrontation wrote history. It's also interesting that Latra is barely mentioned in AS - one would think that she would be elevated to the satus of the Dragon for saving saidar.

 

 

I've always wondered about this too. Latra seemed like she walked around saying "I'm kinda a big deal around here," all day so I'm surprised she wasn't elevated to that status. Did she become the first Amyrlin I'm thinking? I'm not able to look it up myself right now.

[sdelu]

I had to lol at Egwene during this book.

She's given no real thought or research to how the last battle's going to play out, she's been busy obsessing over the WT and being Aes Sedai, then she just instinctively opposes Rand and tries to turn them against Rand, and wants to try to threaten/intimidate him into not breaking the seals. She's such an ignorant, conceited character, I used to be ok with her, but after this book I just hate her.

 

There are several moments reading her POV where I literally thought to myself, "wow, WTF Egwene"

 

The problem with Egwene--as with all Aes Sedai--is that she assumes she knows what she's talking about when she really has absolutely no idea. It doesn't help that the Aes Sedai are all a bunch of morons (save a select few) that are constantly confounded by Egwene's "superior" maneuvering. Really, a girl who spent 16 years on a damn farm is going to outsmart women who have been alive three times as long as her? I can buy that she's more intelligent than some of them individually, but as a whole?

 

But even that doesn't bother me, as pretty much every character in the series always "knows" what they're about. No, the thing that gets me about Egwene is that she is everything she professes to want to rid the Aes Sedai of. She's arrogant to a fault (every time she mentioned how hard life was in the tower I wanted to punch her in the face. Just because YOU had it hard doesn't mean that training in the WT is as hard as the Windfinder/Aiel methods), she's manipulative, she thinks she knows better than everyone and assumes that her logic is the right logic, she's a real jerk and a bully (I dislike Gawyn, but come on), she gets annoyed when people don't agree with her (Nyn and Elayne not taking her side immediately), she thinks the WT is the proper institution for controlling channelers (manipulating the Windfinders/Aiel was a good move for the Amyrlin, but for the girl who trained with them? Pfah), she STILL thinks men can't be trusted, she compares her trials to Rand, etc., etc., etc.

 

She's just... an Aes Sedai. To the bone. She is the epitome of an Aes Sedai. She is the Amyrlin, not Egwene. Perhaps that's what she needs to be for the WT, but it's NOT what she needs to be for the world. She's putting the WT ahead of the world, just like (I think) Nynaeve implies.

 

Yes, there needs to be law and order after the LB, but it'd be helpful if she spared a little while to actually think ABOUT the LB instead of being super-Amyrlin.

 

This makes the entire situation with Rand awkward, because I can see her logic in wanting to resist him, or at least change his mind. I also enjoy that she doesn't see she's being manipulated, but that's beside the point. The PROBLEM with her undermining Rand is that she's doing just that--she's trying to take control. Is Rand necessarily the right leader for the LB? Perhaps not. But he sure as heck knows a lot more than Egwene, and her floundering to stop him is annoying.

 

By all means, try to stop him. But she doesn't have to get all high and mighty with everyone when they see a logic to his actions. She can resist him without being the Fuhrer Amyrlin.

 

Also, she's a moron for thinking Mesaana was the only one who wanted to kill her, especially after a raid on the tower and Gawyn fighting someone who attacked him with a knife.

 

I'm near frothing at the mouth here. I'm tempted to write my own book with a character similar to Egwene, just so i can kill her off and please all the people that hate her. That'll show her...

 

Oh well. I guess that means RJ did a good job with her character, eh?

 

 

 

side note: I wonder what Gawyn will do with those ter'angreal he pocketed... perhaps Tuon will meet the fate she intended for Egwene?

[capuga]

It is clear that the seals need to be broken in order for the Light to win properly. Prophecies and Fel's work make it certain, there is no doubt that Rand is doing the right thing.

 

Egwene, however, is doing the best that she can. Still, i think she is a fool. tGS really made her awesome, but ToM put her down again. True enough, she should not support Rand's plan just because he said so. But really, trying to mess with his plans and bring the nations against him is idiocy. She just assumes Rand is wrong. She does not know the first thing about the DO or the seal, or how the LB will be won. She has no plan of her own, yet she still thinks she has to control Rand.

 

The LB is literally days away. Even if Egwene DOES get to 'control" Rand, what would she do? While certainly breaking the seals seems like an outrageous plan, and she isnt wrong to be wary and even against it. She spends her time trying to control Rand and the world's leaders, disrupting his plan. IMO, she should be focusing on comming up with an ALTERNATE plan. As things are now, this is how i see the conversation going.

 

"Rand, you cant break the seals, I wont let you."

 

"Egwene, I have to 'clear the rubble' to rebuild. I remember how I did it in the AoL, and i think I can rectify the mistakes by using both Saidin and saidar. The seals are breaking anyway, it doesnt matter if i dont break them, they will eventually."

 

"No, you cant break the seals."

 

"What do I do then?"

 

"not break the seals...."

 

Its just stupid of her. she needs to get kicked in the face, seriously. I thought after tGS she would have been more sensible, but she is terrible now.

 

Look at her reaction to the murderers in the WT. She was soooo certain that it was Mesaana, and wouldnt even listen to Gawyn, she just drove him away.

 

Then look what happened. Bloodknives nearly knifed her to pieces, and Gawyn nearly died. Mesaana WAS defeated, but she was still wrong.

 

I had hopes for Egwene, but she really is terrible.

 

Excellent post, pretty much exactly how I feel. My thoughts that were posted on a different thread:

 

The main problem with Egwene in regards to this is not that she thought Rand's plan was crazy. Its probably wise to be skeptical of his plan. The problem is that she just assumes he is wrong with absolutely no consideration that he might have some information or knowledge that she does not. He is the Dragon Reborn, it is entirely reasonable to think that he might know something about how to perform the function he was born for. Even if he doesn't share his plan with her it would have been nice if she had at least considered this. Instead she just immediately assumes that he is crazy and sets about opposing him and undermining his authority.

 

However, I also believe that Rand did this intentionally. I think he knew how Egwene would react and is using her to finish uniting the nations so he can concentrate on other things.

[capuga]

Without going into whether Rand and Egwene are doing the right things re the Seals, the new leadership styles of the two are markedly different. Rand post TGS realises everyone must be respected, even if he disagrees with them. That sometimes he needs to command, but not undermine. His leadership style is everything Egwene's is not.

 

In TOM Egwene truly becomes Aes Sedai - in all the worst sense of post AOL Aes Sedai. Manipulative, dismissive of a man in command, the need to be in control, the Aes Sedai top of the tree, etc. If TGS Rand and Egwene's storylines could be about how wrong the former was and how right the latter were until they both came to the same place at the end of TGS, then IMO in TOM the two swapped right over as Rand went markedly up in my eyes, whilst all the gains Egwene made in TGS as a character fell by the wayside. Christ I even felt sorry for Gawyn, and he topped my list of non red-shirt characters I've wanted to see die the last few books.

 

Couldn't agree more with your post. The only good thing about Egwene I can say from this book was that I found her plans to tie the Wise Ones and Windfinders to the White Tower to be one of much more respect and equality than I expected. I had assumed that she would want the WT to dominate these people despite the Wise Ones, at least, having shown her their competence (and, I believe, superiority). While I think she will still want the WT to lead, she came up with a very reasonable plan that showed respect to these other groups of channelers.

[MatthewWallace]

I think Egwene is doing exactly what Rand wants her too. He tells her he plans to break the seals but doesn't explain exactly why and support it with an argument because he wants her to feel that she must rally support to persuade him different. He lets her know that he will meet her with his armies on the Field or Merrilor (sp?) to encourage her to contact his generals/battle-leaders etc. and ask them for support.

 

We don't see Rand running around telling all of his armies to travel to the place (of course that doesn't mean that he didn't) instead we see him taking care of a few targeted situations where he feels there are mistakes that must be corrected.

 

It feels to me like hes dancing them about on strings, not being an arrogant "I don't have to explain myself to you just do it" personality.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Couldn't agree more with your post. The only good thing about Egwene I can say from this book was that I found her plans to tie the Wise Ones and Windfinders to the White Tower to be one of much more respect and equality than I expected. I had assumed that she would want the WT to dominate these people despite the Wise Ones, at least, having shown her their competence (and, I believe, superiority). While I think she will still want the WT to lead, she came up with a very reasonable plan that showed respect to these other groups of channelers.

 

Hang on a second - let's not sanctify anybody just yet.

 

The Windfinders, the Wise Ones are both arrogant, bigoted, pig-headed, stupid fools just like every other group. No better, no worse. Each only has any respect ( and only limited respect, at that ) for members of their own group. All others are less than human to them.

 

If you take an unbiased look at all of the groups and nearly all of the individuals in this series it becomes nearly impossible to identify any truly Good Guys. They've all fouled their nests, and there is not much to pick between the Dark and the Light anymore.

 

The Light still remains the better choice but only by a whisker.