Why wasn't the choedan GAL used on Rands wound?

[nophone]

He trusted Nynaeve with the female statue... why didn't it even occur to her like "hey i know, lemme see that wound in your back again real quick, mkay?"

[didymos]

He trusted Nynaeve with the female statue... why didn't it even occur to her like "hey i know, lemme see that wound in your back again real quick, mkay?"

 

Healing seems to only require a fixed amount of strength. Some of the best Healers are actually rather weak. MOAR POWAH wouldn't have mattered.

[Baletickle_to_da_face!]

He trusted Nynaeve with the female statue... why didn't it even occur to her like "hey i know, lemme see that wound in your back again real quick, mkay?"

 

Healing seems to only require a fixed amount of strength. Some of the best Healers are actually rather weak. MOAR POWAH wouldn't have mattered.

 

Pretty much sums it up. Healing, especially Nyn's kind, is always described in how complex and complicated her weaves are, not in how much power she draws to apply it.

 

A bigger fire is more destructive, a strong stream of balefire will burn your thread farther back, but you can only put so many bandaids on a wound.

[RyanDuranGeiger]

Hmm, if I recall correctly, during the Dragon Reborn, when the Aes Sedai were healing Mat, they said "The amount of power required is very nearly enough to kill him" If Nynaeve tried it, Rand would likely die from the shock of that much power.

[didymos]

Hmm, if I recall correctly, during the Dragon Reborn, when the Aes Sedai were healing Mat, they said "The amount of power required is very nearly enough to kill him" If Nynaeve tried it, Rand would likely die from the shock of that much power.

 

That was mostly about Mat being on the verge of death, though the fact that they had to sever the link with the dagger first didn't help because that wasn't the same thing as normal Healing.

[Keiling]

He trusted Nynaeve with the female statue... why didn't it even occur to her like "hey i know, lemme see that wound in your back again real quick, mkay?"

 

The amount of power used to heal Rand has never been the issue.

[mikedh]

I think everyone is totally missing the quotes where they say that the Power was like "water drops poured into sand" every time they try to heal Rand, giving the visual that the water is just being sucked up because the shore is so immense... more power = more water?

 

so we're either to assume it's just a bad analogy on Jordan's part (unlikely) or perhaps agree that more Power could indeed be a key to healing the wound.

 

However, I think it would be rather lame for them to just be like, "oh hey we're going to heal these wounds that can't be healed through shear force". The wounds have a symbolic nature throughout the series and it would be rather lame if they could be healed by the CK.

 

In other words, I agree with the original poster that the CK might have done something but I'm glad that this didn't happen.

[Magnetic Zero]

Hmm, if I recall correctly, during the Dragon Reborn, when the Aes Sedai were healing Mat, they said "The amount of power required is very nearly enough to kill him" If Nynaeve tried it, Rand would likely die from the shock of that much power.

 

The form of Healing the Aes Sedai in the Tower used in tDR requires a certain amount of strength from the person being Healed. That is what would have killed him, not the power required in the Healing. The Healing they performed was also not simply Healing but also a severing of the link between him and the dagger, and that is the reason for the incredible amount of strength they required.

[didymos]

The Healing they performed was also not simply Healing but also a severing of the link between him and the dagger, and that is the reason for the incredible amount of strength they required.

 

Yep, exactly:

"The Power needed to break the bond with the dagger and Heal its damage is very close to what could kill him."

 

They call the entire thing a "Healing" but that's more of a formal designation and you can see that Siuan clearly makes a distinction between repairing damage (bog-standard and secondary) and freeing him from the dagger (decidedly out of the ordinary and the main focus of effort). It's also why they didn't have a team of all Yellows, but sisters who were among the strongest.

[dovien]

Here's the difference: Sorilea knows how to form a gateway weave but she isn't strong enough to make it work.

One of the reasons Nynaeve is able to heal so well is because she can draw enough power to fuel such complex weaves.

The complexity of the weave for healing Mat would have been so great that it required a lot of power to make it work.

 

As far as Rand is concerned; there is no complexity of weave or volume of power sufficient to heal what ails him.

[Cut Strand]

I bet using CK would've totally worked to get the various taints out of Rand's body, but I think it would also blast the flesh from his bones.

[fborch]

If anything, both Saidin and Saidar in a circle would be needed, with either Nyn or Flinn directing the flows.

[OptimusPrime]

If anything, both Saidin and Saidar in a circle would be needed, with either Nyn or Flinn directing the flows.

 

Seconded. Now if Flynn and Nynaeve had linked with both Choeden Kals, if Flynn were strong enough (which he probably isnt) Id say the counds would have been fixed. But the right knowledge would bee needed. For example Im not sure if purging the Shadar Logoth taint would have required the same weave or method as the Shadow taint wound. I think it would require an entirely different technique to the Cleansing. The Cleansing worked because the taint was attached to saidin, but the taint was also attracted to Shadar Logoth, and saidar and saidin push away from each other. So in the right location, the taint would be pulled towards Shadar Logoth, if that "gravity" was combined with saidar pushing saidin away from Shadar Logoth, thats how they were seperated, and then the saidar funnel deposited the unattached taint onto Shadar Logoth. With Rands wounds though, neither of the evils are attached to the Source, so neither saidin or saidar will push it anywhere. Whether or not one of the forces could be purged entirely with the True Source remains to be seen, but the thing is that if only one half was purged, the other would spread, and probably result in a greater effect on Rand because as Flynn said, the wounds fought each other, and one wound alone would infect Rand to its full strength.

 

Possible references to Rands wound... In EotW prologue Ishamael said the Aes Sedai could only give the taintmad a few "lucid moments" but the True Power Healed it entirely. Mat was infected with the Shadar Logoth taint from the dagger, or beginning to become infected, but there was the time where he would die without the dagger so he was hit. But the Aes Sedai broke its hold on him, with saidar only.

[dovien]

Well to take a meta approach; that wound is fated to be mortal to Rand.

I don't think it matters what you do, it's just plain not going to be healed.

[bigWalt]

He trusted Nynaeve with the female statue... why didn't it even occur to her like "hey i know, lemme see that wound in your back again real quick, mkay?"

 

Healing seems to only require a fixed amount of strength. Some of the best Healers are actually rather weak. MOAR POWAH wouldn't have mattered.

If so why did a take a gaggle of Aes Sedai to heal Mat?

[Kaznen]

I've personally thought the first wound was never healing because a splinter from Ishy's staff is embedded in Rand's side. Because of the nature of the splinter it oozes the darkness and the AS who have looked haven't delved enough to find it, they either sense the darkness and stop, to afraid to go on, or don't have the skill to delve that fine.

[didymos]

He trusted Nynaeve with the female statue... why didn't it even occur to her like "hey i know, lemme see that wound in your back again real quick, mkay?"

 

Healing seems to only require a fixed amount of strength. Some of the best Healers are actually rather weak. MOAR POWAH wouldn't have mattered.

If so why did a take a gaggle of Aes Sedai to heal Mat?

 

Because he was linked to the dagger, as has been thrice-noted in this thread.

[RyanDuranGeiger]

Hmm, if I recall correctly, during the Dragon Reborn, when the Aes Sedai were healing Mat, they said "The amount of power required is very nearly enough to kill him" If Nynaeve tried it, Rand would likely die from the shock of that much power.

 

The form of Healing the Aes Sedai in the Tower used in tDR requires a certain amount of strength from the person being Healed. That is what would have killed him, not the power required in the Healing. The Healing they performed was also not simply Healing but also a severing of the link between him and the dagger, and that is the reason for the incredible amount of strength they required.

 

Healing requires strength from the person being healed, too.. Not just the breaking of the bond.

 

Be careful. The power needed to break and bond with the dagger and Heal him is very close to what could kill him." - Chapter 17, page 220 of the Dragon Reborn.

 

"At least you are alive." Her voice was musical, a chill, angry music at the moment. "What happened can wait. Try to touch the True Source." "Why?" Rand asked in a wary voice. "I cannot Heal myself, even if I knew how to Heal. No one can. I know that much." For the space of a breath Moiraine seemed on the point of an outburst, strange as that would have been, but in another breath she was once again layered in calm so deep that surely nothing could crack it. "Only some of the strength for Healing comes from the Healer. The Power can replace what comes from the Healed. Without it, you will spent tomorrow flat on your back and perhaps the next day as well." - Chapter 3 of the Shadow Rising, page 97

For just some cuts, he would be flat on his back, from a single Aes Sedai? imagine the Choedan Kal in the hands of Nynaeve...

 

I mean sure, Rand could have been holding the power of the Choedan Kal while being healed, though I doubt he could hold on to the Source if he were being Healed with the Choedan Kal.. But even with that, the amount of power in the Healing would be insane I doubt he'd survive..

 

 

 

 

At least that's how I see it.. I could be wrong, but that seems pretty obvious to me.

 

 

 

Edit: typo.

[capuga]

Possible references to Rands wound... In EotW prologue Ishamael said the Aes Sedai could only give the taintmad a few "lucid moments" but the True Power Healed it entirely.

 

I don't have the book in front of me and I don't know how to use all the online references yet, but in tEotW Ishy is taunting Rand in one of his dreams that he gave LTT the moment of clarity needed to understand the terrible things he had done. He didn't heal LTT insanity completely. I believe it is in the same paragraph that he mentions painting Jain Farstrider as a fool.

[didymos]

Possible references to Rands wound... In EotW prologue Ishamael said the Aes Sedai could only give the taintmad a few "lucid moments" but the True Power Healed it entirely.

 

I don't have the book in front of me and I don't know how to use all the online references yet, but in tEotW Ishy is taunting Rand in one of his dreams that he gave LTT the moment of clarity needed to understand the terrible things he had done. He didn't heal LTT insanity completely.

 

Yes, he does say "moment of sanity" but according to RJ, the True Power can indeed Heal insanity:

 

In Prologue to The Eye of the World, we saw Ishamael use the True Power to Heal insanity. The One Power can not be used to Heal insanity.

 

Anyway, I took that bit in tEotW to mean Ishy did fully Heal him, but seeing and realizing what he'd done promptly drove LTT off the rails again. He just headed to a different destination in Crazyland the 2nd time around. More utterly black, suicidal despair, fewer delusions of mortal enemies being dinner guests.

[capuga]

Possible references to Rands wound... In EotW prologue Ishamael said the Aes Sedai could only give the taintmad a few "lucid moments" but the True Power Healed it entirely.

 

I don't have the book in front of me and I don't know how to use all the online references yet, but in tEotW Ishy is taunting Rand in one of his dreams that he gave LTT the moment of clarity needed to understand the terrible things he had done. He didn't heal LTT insanity completely.

 

Yes, he does say "moment of sanity" but according to RJ, the True Power can indeed Heal insanity:

 

In Prologue to The Eye of the World, we saw Ishamael use the True Power to Heal insanity. The One Power can not be used to Heal insanity.

 

Anyway, I took that bit in tEotW to mean Ishy did fully Heal him, but seeing and realizing what he'd done promptly drove LTT off the rails again. He just headed to a different destination in Crazyland the 2nd time around. More utterly black, suicidal despair, fewer delusions of mortal enemies being dinner guests.

 

I hadn't seen that one before, thanks for the info. Guess it's a moot point anyway since I agree that he just went crazy again when he realized what he had done.

[jdbond]

Don't wanna spoil the thread but TP and OP are evenly matched, even in healing "insanity".

[didymos]

Don't wanna spoil the thread but TP and OP are evenly matched, even in healing "insanity".

 

Well, no on the "insanity". RJ said so, so you can't really argue about that. Yes on the evenly matched, as RJ also said:

This is really great, it is a really great honor to be given the ability to tap into the True Power. Which is not inherently stronger than the One Power. It's not that it is stronger in any way. It is just something that does not have some of the limitations of the One Power. Other people can't feel you embracing it, or using it, like the One Power.

 

No on them being equal in terms of what can be done with them and/or how they function (as evidenced by the insanity thing), which isn't the same as "evenly matched" (even though you didn't specifically mention this):

Azral Hanan

Did Mr. Jordan list out what the True Power can/not do relative to the One Power? Are there limits to both?

Brandon

RAFO. Maybe we'll put some of that in the encyclopedia. They are certainly different. Towers of Midnight has some hints.

 

and:

Matt: Ok. So, obviously a channeler uses the True Power. We’ve discussed this before: they weave the True Power just as they weave the One Power . . .

Brandon: They do, and you don’t have to learn, and so that should tell you that the weaves are similar if not identical to the One Power. There are certain things the True Power can do that are different and it goes about things in different ways, but you don’t have to relearn everything.

 

Still and all, the differences obviously aren't great. What I'd like to know is what it seems like in comparison to both saidin and saidar. We know a lot about the impressions each of those gives a channeler (mountains of collapsing ice, calm, flowing river, etc.), but not a lot about the TP other than "It feels totally awesome, man!"

[Dagon Thyne]

The ammount of power used doesn't matter....the wound in his side was made by a tainted blade...there are no known healing weaves able to be used on it more than half-healed....

 

the fact that she could used more power with the Choegam Gal, means nothing if she has no idea how to do it.....

 

 

That is one of the reason I question the Aes Sedai....they base so much of their customs in who is more powerful, when experience is what truely matter.....it's not going to matter how powerful someone is if an enemy who is weaker knows a weave that blocks all other weaves...the weaker, but more experienced person will still win...

[nophone]

new theory:

 

use a sister to plant some iron in rands skin around the wound, then use egween to channel it into cuellindar. no more splitting open!