Discuss The Full Book

[Ashaman Eric]

I doubt Prophecies works that way. I am bound to think that all of the prophecies will be fulfilled one way or another. It is only Min's viewings whom I think is subject to change because Min's viewing has a direct relation with the pattern. Disrupt the pattern and it could disrupt the viewing. But Fortellings and Prophecies are not related or bound to the Pattern whatsoever. Whatever is written or said will be fulfilled

 

In fact you have it completely backwards. Min herself says that her visions are infallible. No matter what she does to try to change them, they come true. Only if the pattern is destroyed do her visions have no meaning.

 

On the other hand, Lanfear says: "Prophecy is no more than a sign of what people hope for." -The Shadow Rising: Chapter 9.

 

Granted, she says it while trying to divert Rand from fulfilling the prophecies regarding the Dragon. But the statement could have larger implications as well.

[Darth Krewl]

2. Who were the red-veiled "Aiel" at the epilogue?

 

Simple, they're not Aiel. Their Sharamen. Their sharpened teeth are clearly mentioned in The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time. There is an entire, albeit brief, section dedicated to Shara, which IMO, wouldn't be there just as a filler. RJ meant to have Shara remain shrouded behind a veil of mystery, until the time was right to bring it to good use. This is it. The red-veiled attackers are Sharamen, plain and simple.

 

3. Who's Demandred?

 

The leader of the Sharamen. That's why his "rule has been secure" for so long. He will be revealed as the general behind the red-veiled warriors, probably in the prologue or opening chapters of AMOL. Count on it.

 

So, I desperately want this to be true because I've been intrigued by how Shara fits into all this ever since they were mentioned. However... I've just checked back through all mentions of Shara in The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time and did not find any mention of sharpened teeth. (For good measure I also checked the Land of Madmen entries with no luck either). Either there's been an update of this book since I bought it or you might be remembering their entry incorrectly.

 

There is, though, a mention that Sharamen always wear cloaks and veils when doing business in ports with foreigners.

 

--

 

The Rand-Moridin-Merge theory seems a bit strange and unsupported to me. I fully understand they are becoming more and more linked but don't you think it's basically because the Dragon will be the champion of Light and Moridin will be the champion of Dark in the Last Battle? Seems that their power sources are intrinsically linked, being two halves of existence (no dark without light, no light without dark, etc). All of the viewings and visions of Rand merging with someone point more towards his Dragon/Lews Therin Integration, not some sort of Moridin merging.

 

I may not have remembered that entry correctly (thanks for pointing it out) but I do remember that the info on Shara is pretty comprehensive for a place that would remain in the background. So far, there's more info about Shara on The World of RJ's TWoT that in any of the actual novels and I do remember that correctly. So, I do stand by my theory that Shara has got to play a bigger role at some point (and there's only ONE book left).

 

Taking into consideration that Tolkien was one of RJ's major influences, I wouldn't be surprised to see both, men from Shara and the Land of the Madmen playing roles similar to those of the Haradrim and Easterlings in TLoTR. So both could be part of the red-veiled army or we may have another new army altogether making an unexpected appearance at some point in AMoL. Still, I do believe that these red-veiled warriors are Sharamen under Demandred's command. That fills in the gap and connects the dots pretty good.

[clu7ch]

The madmen are definitely not. They are a stone-age civilization with primitive tools and barely any social structure - and the most rudimentary communication skills at best. There is no way they are anything of a possibility as a wild card here, they lack the ability to function orderly. Also, they attack anyone on sight that isn't of them, and that is, for the most part, of them. They're completely taken by the taint, and the women are claimed to be as crazy as the men.

 

As for Shara, I kinda hoped they'd stay out of the series really, because it's too late in the game to introduce another player correctly, in my opinion, and from what I remember, Shara is a bit more advanced than the rest of the world, or at least extremely civilized and political, therefor I have a hard time imagining Sharan's having this primitive savage thing going on. I also remembered something about how tightly contained the channeling situation is in Shara.

[Ashaman Eric]

2. Who were the red-veiled "Aiel" at the epilogue?

 

Simple, they're not Aiel. Their Sharamen. Their sharpened teeth are clearly mentioned in The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time. There is an entire, albeit brief, section dedicated to Shara, which IMO, wouldn't be there just as a filler. RJ meant to have Shara remain shrouded behind a veil of mystery, until the time was right to bring it to good use. This is it. The red-veiled attackers are Sharamen, plain and simple.

 

3. Who's Demandred?

 

The leader of the Sharamen. That's why his "rule has been secure" for so long. He will be revealed as the general behind the red-veiled warriors, probably in the prologue or opening chapters of AMOL. Count on it.

 

So, I desperately want this to be true because I've been intrigued by how Shara fits into all this ever since they were mentioned. However... I've just checked back through all mentions of Shara in The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time and did not find any mention of sharpened teeth. (For good measure I also checked the Land of Madmen entries with no luck either). Either there's been an update of this book since I bought it or you might be remembering their entry incorrectly.

 

There is, though, a mention that Sharamen always wear cloaks and veils when doing business in ports with foreigners.

 

--

 

The Rand-Moridin-Merge theory seems a bit strange and unsupported to me. I fully understand they are becoming more and more linked but don't you think it's basically because the Dragon will be the champion of Light and Moridin will be the champion of Dark in the Last Battle? Seems that their power sources are intrinsically linked, being two halves of existence (no dark without light, no light without dark, etc). All of the viewings and visions of Rand merging with someone point more towards his Dragon/Lews Therin Integration, not some sort of Moridin merging.

 

I may not have remembered that entry correctly (thanks for pointing it out) but I do remember that the info on Shara is pretty comprehensive for a place that would remain in the background. So far, there's more info about Shara on The World of RJ's TWoT that in any of the actual novels and I do remember that correctly. So, I do stand by my theory that Shara has got to play a bigger role at some point (and there's only ONE book left).

 

Taking into consideration that Tolkien was one of RJ's major influences, I wouldn't be surprised to see both, men from Shara and the Land of the Madmen playing roles similar to those of the Haradrim and Easterlings in TLoTR. So both could be part of the red-veiled army or we may have another new army altogether making an unexpected appearance at some point in AMoL. Still, I do believe that these red-veiled warriors are Sharamen under Demandred's command. That fills in the gap and connects the dots pretty good.

 

Theoretically Shara should have a vast number of channelers. If you expect that it's only half as populated as Randland and the Waste combined, they haven't culled their channelers at all. I would bet there are as many channelers in Shara alone as in the rest of the world combined. Either that or culling just didn't have the effect that the Aes Sedai think it did and Shara isn't quite as big a resource as I'm making it out to be.

 

It is really odd that Shara would all of the sudden become important, though. At best, it's been used as literary seasoning for 12 books now. On the other hand it is possible that Demandred has set himself up over there to tap into the areas resources. As a closed society, it would probably be relatively easy to take over without it filtering down to the general public.

[clu7ch]

And we know they have access to Shara, because wasnt it Graendal who kidnapped a couple of their Rulers?

[Ronneby]

Seriously, I think Brandon was not talking about the actual "Mat goes into the fox doorway and gets his ashanderai", but that "somewhere in books 4-6" is when we the reader see the inscription on it, and we promptly miss the deeper implications of "what was asked is given".

 

 

So do you think its so easy ?

 

The big unnoticed thing that so many of us have wondered and speculated that it could be. It´s "only" the inscription on Mat spear. For me that would be the biggest disappointment so far in the series.

 

Ronneby

[clu7ch]

Ronneby, the big unnoticed thing wasn't a big disappointment. It's a small thing we didn't notice. It had a massive effect on the story. it was the difference between Mat, Thom and Moiraine surviving, or dieing in the tower. What we know about moiraine, it could have been the difference of winning or losing the last battle. Only time will tell.

[locogu4]

Seriously, I think Brandon was not talking about the actual "Mat goes into the fox doorway and gets his ashanderai", but that "somewhere in books 4-6" is when we the reader see the inscription on it, and we promptly miss the deeper implications of "what was asked is given".

 

 

So do you think its so easy ?

 

The big unnoticed thing that so many of us have wondered and speculated that it could be. It´s "only" the inscription on Mat spear. For me that would be the biggest disappointment so far in the series.

 

Ronneby

 

What is this 'Big Unnoticed Thing' I hear about? Not exactly what it is in the books, but in what context was this idea of a 'Big Unnoticed Thing' brought to our attention? Did Sanderson say something like this, to watch out for it?

[clu7ch]

He did, and welcome to Dragonmount Bale.

He said it sometime after? or before? TGS, I'm not sure, but compared it to Vin's earring from Mistborn,

that being something we should have noticed but never paid any mind to it, that has huge ramifications on the storyline.

LOTS of debate ensued.

[Darth Krewl]

The madmen are definitely not. They are a stone-age civilization with primitive tools and barely any social structure - and the most rudimentary communication skills at best. There is no way they are anything of a possibility as a wild card here, they lack the ability to function orderly. Also, they attack anyone on sight that isn't of them, and that is, for the most part, of them. They're completely taken by the taint, and the women are claimed to be as crazy as the men.

 

As for Shara, I kinda hoped they'd stay out of the series really, because it's too late in the game to introduce another player correctly, in my opinion, and from what I remember, Shara is a bit more advanced than the rest of the world, or at least extremely civilized and political, therefor I have a hard time imagining Sharan's having this primitive savage thing going on. I also remembered something about how tightly contained the channeling situation is in Shara.

 

I agree that the Madmen (and women) would be difficult to control. But the True Power can heal madness (remember the EOTW prologue) and all those mad channelers could be turned to the Shadow by using the 13x13 trick. As for the state of their "civilization", that would be completely irrelevant 'cause the Shadow would be using them to raise hell at the Last Battle and not much more. Trollocs, after all, aren't the most advanced and civilized peoples in the WOT universe but are valuable as foot soldiers. So these madmen/women do offer a certain value. Especially 'cause they're assumed to be channelers, for the most part.

 

The flaw in this theory, IMO, would be that a vast investment in time and resources would have to go into the creation of a somewhat functional army of mad people and I don't see any of the Forsaken going through all that trouble. Though the possibility can't be completely ruled out, either, for all the reasons stated above.

 

Re: Shara, you can't introduce them correctly at this late stage. Not onscreen at least, I agree. But again, Tolkien never went through the trouble of presenting Haradrim and Easterling characters, locations, societies, etc., either, and both nations play a major role in TLoTR, precisely as armies of Mordor. Besides, the author can always rely on glossaries and reference books for this sort of thing and Shara has been lingering in the background throughout the series for quite a while now. Not to mention the detailed entry found on The World of RJ's TWoT that helps us get much better acquainted with the land, its people and civilization.

 

So, all in all, these two countries/continents could play some role in the Last Battle. Even if it's just a minor, background role, since one would think that Tarmon Gai'don involves the whole world, this would make sense IMO.

[clu7ch]

In my defense, I believe that the True Power could only cure the madness temporarily, IIRC, but that was only Ishamael, and not a more gifted Chosen. Perhaps Graendal could have done that, but she was only recently granted access to the True Power, and I assume she probably doesn't have it anymore, after SH rapes her. (rapes? maybe.)

[Darth Krewl]

In my defense, I believe that the True Power could only cure the madness temporarily, IIRC, but that was only Ishamael, and not a more gifted Chosen. Perhaps Graendal could have done that, but she was only recently granted access to the True Power, and I assume she probably doesn't have it anymore, after SH rapes her. (rapes? maybe.)

 

Yes, I too understand that the healing capabilities of the TP are only temporary. After all, it's not like the Dark One could care less about Healing. But see, that's my point exactly. If I'm a general for the Shadow, I'm not looking after the well-being of these people. I don't even see them as people. I see them as weapons and I wouldn't give a hoot about their survival after the battle. All would be disposable. So, healing being temporary wouldn't be any problem in this sense.

 

Now that you mention Graendal, that's another very good possibility. Perhaps she could have a hand in there, with her great prowess in Compulsion and, to my understanding, the effects of deep Compulsion are permanent (unlike TP Healing). So, you have Healing, Compulsion and the 13x13 at your disposal to turn these mad channelers into weapons. Why not use them?

 

That being said, I'm not a great proponent of the Madmen and women theory. I just wouldn't put it past the Shadow to do something like this.

[Ronneby]

Ronneby, the big unnoticed thing wasn't a big disappointment. It's a small thing we didn't notice. It had a massive effect on the story. it was the difference between Mat, Thom and Moiraine surviving, or dieing in the tower. What we know about moiraine, it could have been the difference of winning or losing the last battle. Only time will tell.

 

You misunderstand me. Of course it was very important for both Matt, Thom and Moraine. Moraine probably has som new very important information to share to Rand from the Aelfin/Eelfin(about the seals mabye). My disappointment was more in the area that I always predicted that this unnoticed thing should have some more longlasting effect even in the last book. Now we know that the big unnoticed thing was very important but only for a very specific situation and after that nothing more. After all the discussion under a very long time, regardless that it was critical important, I must confess that I after all feel some disappointment about this thing.

 

Ronneby

[clu7ch]

I believe I can agree with your points sir :)

[darko]

I almost forgot, what will happen with Gawyn and the rings he took from the bloodknives? The ring is a ter'angreal that will gradually kill whoever puts it on right?

[masaru]

Re: Shara, you can't introduce them correctly at this late stage. Not onscreen at least, I agree. But again, Tolkien never went through the trouble of presenting Haradrim and Easterling characters, locations, societies, etc., either, and both nations play a major role in TLoTR, precisely as armies of Mordor. Besides, the author can always rely on glossaries and reference books for this sort of thing and Shara has been lingering in the background throughout the series for quite a while now. Not to mention the detailed entry found on The World of RJ's TWoT that helps us get much better acquainted with the land, its people and civilization.

 

So, all in all, these two countries/continents could play some role in the Last Battle. Even if it's just a minor, background role, since one would think that Tarmon Gai'don involves the whole world, this would make sense IMO.

 

I can really see Sharamen showing up at the Last Battle in a "Oh crap. Demandred has mobilized Shara against us. WTF do we do?" big reveal kind of way. It's kind of a balance to Super Saiyan Rand. Gotta have the big despair before ultimate victory.

[waffle]

I almost forgot, what will happen with Gawyn and the rings he took from the bloodknives? The ring is a ter'angreal that will gradually kill whoever puts it on right?

 

He knows that the things will kill him so he won´t put them on. Unless the crap really hits the fan.

 

Will probably use them to brag. Tuon and Egwene meet, and Gawyn shows that he has 3 of the rings to scare the crap out of the seanchan.

[DPT24]

However much the Seanchan think Bloodknives are unbeatable, Gareth Bryne killed one, and he's somewhat older, and while a blademaster, probably not one of the top blademasters like Galad, Gawyn, Lan, and Rand. I kinda think the Warder bond gives the Aes Sedai a "counter" since that also gives extra strenght/perception. Gawyn killing 3 isn't that much of a Dex Es Machina in my mind, since it's been emphasized for books that he's one of the best blademasters in the series.

[Khazul]

However much the Seanchan think Bloodknives are unbeatable, Gareth Bryne killed one, and he's somewhat older, and while a blademaster, probably not one of the top blademasters like Galad, Gawyn, Lan, and Rand. I kinda think the Warder bond gives the Aes Sedai a "counter" since that also gives extra strenght/perception. Gawyn killing 3 isn't that much of a Dex Es Machina in my mind, since it's been emphasized for books that he's one of the best blademasters in the series.

 

Also, remember to take into account that he was not bonded until after he had killed the three of them. I think it was quite impressive.

[Ashaman Eric]

I also wonder if the 'gifts' of the warder bond might offer some protection against the life draining properties of the rings.

[AutomatedTeller]

However much the Seanchan think Bloodknives are unbeatable, Gareth Bryne killed one, and he's somewhat older, and while a blademaster, probably not one of the top blademasters like Galad, Gawyn, Lan, and Rand. I kinda think the Warder bond gives the Aes Sedai a "counter" since that also gives extra strenght/perception. Gawyn killing 3 isn't that much of a Dex Es Machina in my mind, since it's been emphasized for books that he's one of the best blademasters in the series.

 

Yeah, some things get a comeuppance this book:

 

Bloodknives - good, but not unbeatable.

Children of Light - not really an elite military force - just average guys who sometimes panic when faced with shadowspawn.

[bysomy]

Gradys son is Gaidal Cain

[Byzantine279]

To sum up:

 

Wow.

[jwillis7]

Gradys son is Gaidal Cain

i said this a few pages back but someone said he is to old... but that was my thought BUT what do yall think of Ashandarei being the big unnoticed thing

[Terez]

Gradys son is Gaidal Cain

i said this a few pages back but someone said he is to old... but that was my thought BUT what do yall think of Ashandarei being the big unnoticed thing

It was. No one who has been around for any amount of time ever thought otherwise, because we have been wondering why the hell they gave it to him all this time.