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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Mat's 1st POV


nwash_10

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Hi All!

 

I know that most of us are still pumped up about listening to Chapter 2 of ToM and won't probably care about this but I found it curious. So, I've been listening to EotW while traveling for work and something struck me. There's no Mat POV. That got me thinking, when exactly does Mat get his first POV. Well, it turns out it's not until Chapter 19 of tDR. This is right after Mat is healed from the SL dagger.

 

Now, I'm curious if this was ever a question that was brought up to RJ or anyone? We get A LOT of secondary characters who get multiple POVs way before Mat. What's the reasoning for this?

 

Is it as simple as Mat not having enough going on in his storyline until after he's healed?

 

Just curious what people's thoughts are.

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because thats the first time he is separated from rand, and i think that RJ wanted to stick to rands povs when possible at least at the start

 

 

Actually, Mat is pretty much separated from Rand during most of tGH. If you remember Rand, Loial, and Hurin use the Portal Stone and are separated from everyone else following Fain. Also, he's sent off to Tar Valon at the very beginning of tDR.

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because thats the first time he is separated from rand, and i think that RJ wanted to stick to rands povs when possible at least at the start

 

 

Actually, Mat is pretty much separated from Rand during most of tGH. If you remember Rand, Loial, and Hurin use the Portal Stone and are separated from everyone else following Fain. Also, he's sent off to Tar Valon at the very beginning of tDR.

woops I got my books mixed up

 

coudl ti be that he didnt want to start adding too many PoVs yet?

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I'd say it's because, in truth, that is where Mat's story begins. You could argue it was with the dagger, but that was only the catalyst. It would have killed him, but through the healing he gained so much more...and sets off on his own adventure, not someone else's, not tagging along - his story.

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I have noticed this as an interesting quirk as well on my rereads, so here goes. TEotW is predominately a story about Rand, we see most of the book from his PoV. When we do not, it is almost always for a specfic reason. For instance, the reason we see Perrin and Nyn PoV is because we have to see the threeway split after Shadar Logoth from someone's perspective. We did get to see more Perrin development thanks to this, but that was still side stuff to the main focus of Rand. Mat was with Rand so we didn't need to see it from his PoV, and it make sense in that book that he would concentrate on Rand's PoV, and also one would assume that Jordan felt it was better story telling to kind of veil the effect the dagger was having on Mat rather then showing you a bird's eye view.

 

The Great Hunt, again, is mostly a story about Rand. But again Perrin does get screen time over Mat. I think the reason for this is simply because there was not much interesting in seeing Mat's perspective. We have all come to know what to expect from a Mat PoV, and being in the camp chasing Fain and then Rand doesn't hold much interesting for Mat. I think this ultimately explains why we didn't see Mat PoV until The Dragon Reborn, which itself was the novel that moved Rand back and allowed the main supporting cast to step up. Mat just wouldn't have been that much fun to read before he got a little freedom and the means to do things his way.

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Partly the narrow amount of PoVs, partly that Mat would be a very unreliable narrator due to the dagger for most of tEotW (the narration would possibly be confusing, and/or reveal just what was going on in his head, which made for more tension being viewed from the outside). And the separation made him a not-so-useful narrator for large stretches of tGH. (is it Perrin's PoV we saw?)

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Mat doesn't remember most of what happened during his time with the dagger. And in the first two book when he wasn't next to Rand he was next to Perrin. The Dark Mat in tEotW wasn't Mat, and in tGH Mat was mostly just there sickly friend.

 

I agree with A2597, it wasn't until after the healing that his story truly began.

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As Frostmuse pointed out, Mat would be too much of an unrealiable narrator early on to be of much use as a POV. Not to mention, it would probably give the readers too much of a bad impression of him when he had the dagger. I know I wasnt a fan of Mat until Book 3 - I would hate to have seen my thoughts regarding him if we actually got his POV at the height of his paranoia and suspicions.

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The reason Perrin gets the other big POV in TGH is because that's where he finally starts making use of being a Wolfbrother and staking out his own identity. It simply took much longer for Mat's role to take shape, largely due to the ordeal with the dagger, which was a necessary preamble to acquiring Supergeneral Powers, which acquisition in turn got him stuck out in the Waste for months without an opportunity to acquire an army and start putting them to use. He definitely contributes in the first two books, but he only rarely takes any initiative and is almost purely reactive. In TDR, however, he basically has no choice: he has to take responsibility and action because he's alone and trapped in Tar Valon and no one will really tell him a damn thing anymore. And, it's these choices, made all on his lonesome, which lead him straight to Rhuidean, which is why we get to see him make those choices and the ones that follow.

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That and RJ had an epiphany to change Mat from Gollum to Han Solo, making him the stuff of legends and increasing the awesomeness of the series tenfold.

 

There was no epiphany. He was always going "Solo" from the start. TEoTW, pg. 46 (US Hardcover), Mat says:

 

"Battles interest me."

 

That's no accident.

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Mat doesn't remember most of what happened during his time with the dagger. And in the first two book when he wasn't next to Rand he was next to Perrin. The Dark Mat in tEotW wasn't Mat, and in tGH Mat was mostly just there sickly friend.

 

I agree with A2597, it wasn't until after the healing that his story truly began.

 

 

On the whole I agree that Mat's storyline really didn't take off too much until he was healed. However, I don't think that it matters that Dark Mat wasn't truly Mat. I mean we could argue that Dark Rand isn't truly Rand but we still got his pov, or super emo Perrin isn't really Perrin. Also, just because Mat doesn't remember something after the fact doesn't mean we can't read it from his POV. We get to see the mini battle before they head into SL from Rand's perspective in EotW but later he's trying to remember what happened and he can only remember quick flashes.

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As Frostmuse pointed out, Mat would be too much of an unrealiable narrator early on to be of much use as a POV. Not to mention, it would probably give the readers too much of a bad impression of him when he had the dagger. I know I wasnt a fan of Mat until Book 3 - I would hate to have seen my thoughts regarding him if we actually got his POV at the height of his paranoia and suspicions.

 

We get Fain's pov several times in tGH. I wouldn't consider him to be a reliable source, a batsh*t crazy source but not necessarily a reliable source. The fact of the matter is RJ has repeatedly said how egotistical the forsaken are and that just because we read something from their pov doesn't mean it's actually the truth. Just look at how many characters are motivated by something that's completely false(I'm looking at you Gawyn). I think that we already have a lot of characters who act a certain way or make a certain decision because their information they have is incorrect, making them unreliable narrators.

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There might be something with Mat during his time under the dagger's influence that could come back to play in a later book. RJ had a lot of stuff planned out in advance with this series, I doubt he just didn't give us a Mat pov out of neglect, so maybe it's something hidden on purpose? Mat was going to do the things that Mat was going to do. Min's viewing all the way back in Baerlon is going to happen at some point, and it hasn't all happened yet. I don't think there was any 'epiphany'.

 

In TEoTW, Mat was with Rand (the main character) and sick. Rand POV. In TGH, Mat was with Perrin and kind of sickly, and Perrin needed explanations of how his wolf-abilities worked. Thus, Perrin pov. Mat didn't have any character development to speak of until TDR. He's mostly unconscious until ch 19, and then wakes up all groggy and with a lot of memory loss. He's finally alone and has to figure a way out of a situation all on his own. Perfect time to introduce him (and it's done masterfully IMO).

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There might be something with Mat during his time under the dagger's influence that could come back to play in a later book. RJ had a lot of stuff planned out in advance with this series, I doubt he just didn't give us a Mat pov out of neglect, so maybe it's something hidden on purpose?

 

Maybe, but I also don't think that is needed to explain why RJ would keep Mat's mind off limits. I think what you are doing is looking too much at book 1 with a hindsight view. We don't need some big reveal in book 13 to explain why RJ wouldn't want to let us into Mat's mind in book 1. When book 1 was all there was, it was a lot smaller scale book, it's momentum relying mainly on a lack of large perspective from the reader to create a atmosphere of wonder, mystery, and intrigue. Mat's lack of a PoV is explained simply by the fact that as readers we were left wondering what exactly what happening to Mat. Was it the dagger? Is it taking him over completely? Is Mordeth loose? What's going on!? All questions that we know the answer to now, but not then. And giving Mat a PoV in the middle of it would have ruined that air of mystery that the first book had.

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As Frostmuse pointed out, Mat would be too much of an unrealiable narrator early on to be of much use as a POV. Not to mention, it would probably give the readers too much of a bad impression of him when he had the dagger. I know I wasnt a fan of Mat until Book 3 - I would hate to have seen my thoughts regarding him if we actually got his POV at the height of his paranoia and suspicions.

 

We get Fain's pov several times in tGH. I wouldn't consider him to be a reliable source, a batsh*t crazy source but not necessarily a reliable source. The fact of the matter is RJ has repeatedly said how egotistical the forsaken are and that just because we read something from their pov doesn't mean it's actually the truth. Just look at how many characters are motivated by something that's completely false(I'm looking at you Gawyn). I think that we already have a lot of characters who act a certain way or make a certain decision because their information they have is incorrect, making them unreliable narrators.

 

But Fain is meant to be crazy as anything, and the Forsaken are evil. Adding in a third character early on who was overwhelmed with paranoia and suspicion would be too much unrealiability, imo. Especially since it was still early, the world was being set-up.

On the whole I agree that Mat's storyline really didn't take off too much until he was healed. However, I don't think that it matters that Dark Mat wasn't truly Mat. I mean we could argue that Dark Rand isn't truly Rand but we still got his pov, or super emo Perrin isn't really Perrin. Also, just because Mat doesn't remember something after the fact doesn't mean we can't read it from his POV. We get to see the mini battle before they head into SL from Rand's perspective in EotW but later he's trying to remember what happened and he can only remember quick flashes.

 

The difference is though that Rand is already a far established character by the time he turns dark, as does Perrin with his "emoness." Mat on the other hand would have been completely new and given everyone a completely false and bad impression of the character, and that would not be a good way to start off a character who is described as mischevious and cocky.

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Adding in a third character early on who was overwhelmed with paranoia and suspicion would be too much unrealiability, imo.

 

They're all unreliable. All of 'em. Even the nice, trusting ones. And as for Rand, he was already suspicious about a bunch of stuff right from the very beginning.

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