Nynaeve and Elayne= Aes Sedai

[horus17]

So Egwene is now a sister of the White Tower by virtue of being raised Amyrlin. Just wondering if the community thinks both Elayne and Nynaeve are truly Aes Sedai after Egwene's decree. I myself don't think they deserve the title. Nor can they understand why no one feels they even deserve the title, since they're so stuck on themselves. Screw the Oath Rod as a significant determining factor. Some potential sisters fail on the second trip through the Rings, and those two are so messed up in the head, they may not be able to handle it. And Nynaeve hasn't been through even once.

[KefkaPalazzo]

I kinda agree here. They're like kids who see how other AS behave, and mimic them. I also think that the AS have some sort of mental fortitude (given by the Rings and 100 weaves exams) that Nynaeve and Elayne just don't have. They should at least be made to take the exams. IMO, the tests make the AS just as much as the Oaths. Probably more so.

 

If one of them were raised Amyrlin (god help them) and raised Egwene by decree, I wouldn't have had a problem with it. Her training under the Aiel certainly beat the pointlessly stubborn child out of her. She still has her bullheaded moments, but not as bad as the others.

[Lambada]

On the upside, Egwene now has the authority to haul them back to the Tower for their testing, and a much needed info-dumping session. (Oh wait, but Queens and Amyrlins never share information with anyone....)

[Durinax]

I believe that the fact that those two having been amyrlin raised will come into play once more. I think that Egwene may revoke the position to one of them, I am just waiting to see which one

[Byzantine279]

horus, have you been reading the same books? Honestly Nynaeve is BETTER than most Aes Sedai, and i mean as a person overall. Most Aes Sedai are so full of themselves it is ridiculous, at least Nyn has humility. As for Elayne... well i can't be a fair judge I do want her to slip, fall, and be paralyzed in a way that cannot be healed, just because of the irony.

[chuckievi]

I believe that the fact that those two having been amyrlin raised will come into play once more. I think that Egwene may revoke the position to one of them, I am just waiting to see which one

 

Egwene is going to do the same thing Elaida did? I highly doubt that.

[horus17]

In my opinion, all of the women in the series are a bit off. up until Nyn had her block fixed, she could never admit to anyone that she's wrong about anything...just like ALL of the Aes Sedai. the entire time in Luca's menagerie she acted like she was the Queen of Andor, all the while silently judging Elayne for acting the same way. If the roles were reversed, those two would be acting like all of the Aes Sedai treating them. Its funny how Nyn needs something in her face in order to believe it to be true, especially if its a man that's telling her its true. Yet her childhood friend tells her she's Aes Sedai and thats all it takes. Poof, you're Aes Sedai. It would be one thing if most of the sisters considered them Aes Sedai. But the vast majority treat them like Sympathy-Sisters of the White Tower.

 

Its like treating Elayne as the Queen of Andor. She's the heir and her mom is 'dead', but that doesn't make her the Queen. She's not the Queen b/c she hasn't went through all the motions. Just like the group of girls Egwene raised, against all customs and without passing all of the tests.

[Charlz Guybon]

Some potential sisters fail on the second trip through the Rings, and those two are so messed up in the head, they may not be able to handle it. And Nynaeve hasn't been through even once.

Eh? Both Nyneave and Elayne have been through the Rings, we even see Nynaeve go through them.

 

The test that Accepted take tests their ability to channel under pressure. Nynaeve has successfully fought Forsaken. That's more than equivalent. Elayne has successfully fought Seanchan will unweaving a web. Also equivalent.

 

Mental fortitude, most Aes Sedai are spoiled children compared to these two. There's a reason Cadsuane's so disgusted with the lot of them and only thinks Nyneave capable of being salvaged (she hasn't met Egwene or Elayne).

[Byzantine279]

hes taking about the second set, the Aes Sedai test.

 

Honestly i doubt either would fail (Ewgene wouldn't as well, distracting her would take the Last Battle itself). They have simply advanced too far, most of those who do fail fall to the distractions and can't continue. (though, Nyn doesn't have her emotions under control, but i never understood why it is so important to always have your emotions in check, it simply means that if you break you will takes ages to recover and it distances you from other people which only a fool would condone).

[sleepinghour]

RJ confirmed in one of his old blog posts that all three would be able to pass the AS test.

 

As for how they compare to other AS... Joline was a weeping mess in Ebou Dar after hiding from the Seanchan for just a few days, and she had two Warders to protect her and Setalle Anan to help. Joline is Green Ajah and a former Sitter; she's got to be 80-100 years old at least. But she all but crumbled under the pressure.

 

Whereas Nynaeve and Elayne pursued the Seanchan to Falme on their own and marched into their headquarters to free Egwene. They're new to the shawl and have a lot to learn...but they are in no way inferior to other AS. That said, I don't think most AS will acknowledge them as such until they've sworn on the Oath Rod.

[Lambada]

Do you have a quote for that blog post? I don't remember reading it when I first went through every blog entry.

 

And also, I think people are getting confused between ter'angreal

 

The Accepted Test sends them through the three arches. (What was, is and will be)

The Test for Aes Sedai sends them through one ring (narrower at its top an bottom - I imagine it like a vertical eye). In it you do 100 weaves.

 

The test to become a Wise One Apprentice sends them through rings - you step into any one of three rings, which doesn't matter. This shows you all futures, yet you remember only bits.

 

The test to become a Wise One / Clan Chief sends you through the glass columns, to see the history of the Aiel.

 

As such neither Elayne nor Nynaeve have been through rings.

[Auld Manriva]

As to Egwene "revoking" AS status on either. No, I don't think so. But with Eggs' new appreciation/opinion about the Oath Rod I believe one or both MAY demur. I'm not certain of that, both have a deep seated desire and reasons to continue as AS. If the idea of "retirement" is accepted then I think Elayne will go ahead with it. That "Queen as Aes Sedai" thing runs kind of deep. Nynaeve want's to be the greatest healer known, if it takes being AS to get access to learning I think she will do the OR thing. But then, she and Flynn may just team up and start a whole new paradigm.

 

Also, Elayne IS Queen of Andor. There is no reasonable dispute. She's purposely and successfully gone through ALL the Andoran requirements for ascension. In fact a much tougher go of it than Morgase had. She's already made very savvy political and economical moves. She's the Queen, no doubt. Morgase won't dispute; she'll retire as an adviser with "young" Talanvor.

 

I agree with the thought that what Elayne and Nynaeve have done to this point is = or > both AS tests. But if only for "going through the motions" reasons those are still required Nyn would do the 100 weaves blindfolded after seeing each once.

 

The only reason other AS look askance at Nyn and Elayne is the Oath Rod issue. I'm not sure if CaddyShack even considers THAT a big deal. It's actions not tradition that floats her boat.

[anotherfingolfin]

i don't think anybody disputes that any of the three would sail through the AS tests without a hitch at this point. they probably would have (albeit not so easily) had they lived in the White Tower like conventianal AS, doing conventional Novice/Accepted things. it must be noted though, that great ability does not automatically make you an AS in my book, which is probably how the majority of AS look at it. I mean, just because a prince has the potential to be a greater king than his father, doesn't mean he is the king until several events take place. similarly, certain 'motions' must be gone through before officially conferring a title, or acceptance into an organisation.

that said, if an Accepted can be legally promoted to Amyrlin, and thereby become full Aes Sedai, then Egwene is now undoubtedly one. If an Amyrlin can, legally, simply choose to raise someone to AS status, then Nyn and Elayne are undoubtedly, legally, AS, and the other women should stop whining.

[sleepinghour]

Do you have a quote for that blog post? I don't remember reading it when I first went through every blog entry.

 

From this post:

Yes, Elayne, Nynaeve and Egwene could pass the test for Aes Sedai with their current abilities, though Nynaeve might be a little hard pressed. Too much specialization.

 

RJ is probably referring to the 100 weaves, which Daigian taught Nynaeve in TGS.

[theblacksmith]

I have very little to add to this thread, but here goes...

 

I feel the need for validation of the other AS is irrelevant in retrospect to the abilities demonstrated by them during the attack on their WT, I believe the matter of the oath rod and the kinswomen will be addressed very soon, and it is my humble opinion the AS will have to realize prior to going to TG that alot of their practices have been detrimental to their ability to face what is coming. Seriously, all of their practices have a garnered a false sense of everything. The belief in the 3 oaths allowed the BA to fester in their ranks. The structured teaching of this is "how" to do this properly has prevented any creativity among them for years, and these so called test have only provided another means of showing they can do that which can be done by novices and has served no other real purpose other than admittance to their sorority. I thing the folloers of the DO did their best work with AS.

 

Looking at Egwene's recent actions and the general things Elayne can do with terangreal (thought to be lost, etc.) are what will be needed in the coming days. And picture the reactions when all find out it was Nyn channeling with the DR that they perceived all across the world which caused so much fear and modifications to their thought processes into what would be tolerable. The acceptance of these two women into their ranks is a certainty, what should be more a matter of discourse is how soon can the bruised ego of the "Green Ajah" be healed; A truce with Seanchan via Mat/Rand/Egwene is sorely needed and a very quick course in war weaves will be needed because these legitimate AS are so far from what is needed now it is laughable. Of all AS these three whining, petulant, stubborn, worrisome, teenage women are what the world needs to lead this traditional sorority into the battle for their existence.

 

Wolfbrother6

[Lynchgrinch]

Is it just me that thinks Nynaeve and Elayne have done way more than most Aes Sedai?

 

yeah, they may not have passed tests or taken any oaths, but they have coped under more pressure and come out on top of ridiculous odds WAYYYY more than other "actual" Aes Sedai.

 

I think that the other Aes Sedai are just jelous because people half there age (or more) can and have done way more than they can. It's a pride thing i recon, feeling a bit down beacuse the new kids on the block are a bit better than them.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Is it just me that thinks Nynaeve and Elayne have done way more than most Aes Sedai?

 

yeah, they may not have passed tests or taken any oaths, but they have coped under more pressure and come out on top of ridiculous odds WAYYYY more than other "actual" Aes Sedai.

 

I think that the other Aes Sedai are just jelous because people half there age (or more) can and have done way more than they can. It's a pride thing i recon, feeling a bit down beacuse the new kids on the block are a bit better than them.

 

I agree, I equate it to something like having a University Degree. Ill use a medical one as an example.

 

If some random person came along and was a brilliant doctor without going through the University course, those who have the degree would be jealous as hell. They would be snooty about not having the "proper" qualifications and try to take them down a peg or two at every oppertunity they could.

 

I see it the same with AS.

[Cut Strand]

Is it just me that thinks Nynaeve and Elayne have done way more than most Aes Sedai?

 

yeah, they may not have passed tests or taken any oaths, but they have coped under more pressure and come out on top of ridiculous odds WAYYYY more than other "actual" Aes Sedai.

 

I think that the other Aes Sedai are just jelous because people half there age (or more) can and have done way more than they can. It's a pride thing i recon, feeling a bit down beacuse the new kids on the block are a bit better than them.

 

I agree, I equate it to something like having a University Degree. Ill use a medical one as an example.

 

If some random person came along and was a brilliant doctor without going through the University course, those who have the degree would be jealous as hell. They would be snooty about not having the "proper" qualifications and try to take them down a peg or two at every oppertunity they could.

 

I see it the same with AS.

In real life there was a time when doctors didn't wash their hands before treating patients, they would even wear the blood of past patients as a mark of pride on bear skin. Which is dangerously unhygienic (obvious to us). But at the time (pre-19th century) handwashing was associated with religion, which doctors certainly weren't (necessarily).

 

Granted at the time, indoor plumbing wasn't common, and standing water was probably associated with various diseases (typhoid, malaria).

 

But then Robert Koch suggested "germ theory" (the idea that really small things might be one thing that makes people sick).

 

Interesting article: http://www.accessexcellence.org/AE/AEC/CC/hand_background.php

My favorite part of it is Louis Pasteur, "The thing that kills women with [childbirth fever]... is you doctors that carry deadly microbes from sick women to healthy ones."

 

So yeah, Nynaeve and Elayne represent doctors who argue that other doctors are "doing it wrong."

[Lynchgrinch]

sorry, what?

 

My bad but was there any point in all that massive discription when you could have just overviewed your points?

 

Interesting though, i never realy thought of it that way, as obscure as it is.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Is it just me that thinks Nynaeve and Elayne have done way more than most Aes Sedai?

 

yeah, they may not have passed tests or taken any oaths, but they have coped under more pressure and come out on top of ridiculous odds WAYYYY more than other "actual" Aes Sedai.

 

I think that the other Aes Sedai are just jelous because people half there age (or more) can and have done way more than they can. It's a pride thing i recon, feeling a bit down beacuse the new kids on the block are a bit better than them.

 

I agree, I equate it to something like having a University Degree. Ill use a medical one as an example.

 

If some random person came along and was a brilliant doctor without going through the University course, those who have the degree would be jealous as hell. They would be snooty about not having the "proper" qualifications and try to take them down a peg or two at every oppertunity they could.

 

I see it the same with AS.

In real life there was a time when doctors didn't wash their hands before treating patients, they would even wear the blood of past patients as a mark of pride on bear skin. Which is dangerously unhygienic (obvious to us). But at the time (pre-19th century) handwashing was associated with religion, which doctors certainly weren't (necessarily).

 

Granted at the time, indoor plumbing wasn't common, and standing water was probably associated with various diseases (typhoid, malaria).

 

But then Robert Koch suggested "germ theory" (the idea that really small things might be one thing that makes people sick).

 

Interesting article: http://www.accessexcellence.org/AE/AEC/CC/hand_background.php

My favorite part of it is Louis Pasteur, "The thing that kills women with [childbirth fever]... is you doctors that carry deadly microbes from sick women to healthy ones."

 

So yeah, Nynaeve and Elayne represent doctors who argue that other doctors are "doing it wrong."

 

Not exactly what I was saying, but I do agree with you here.

 

I was talking more 21st century. Even if someone was brilliant at any subject/trade but had no Degree(ie; Medicinal, historian) those that have their degree would think them "lesser" simply because they have not done the formal Degree, even if they were 10x better than one who had completed it.

 

Same with the AS final test, its like getting the "degree". Your not considered (by others) truly AS (Doctor/historian) until you have the formal degree (passed test)

 

And of course, when AS see these people who havent even done the test and are 10x better than them, they will try to bring them down at every chance they get. They would be jealous.

[Luckers]

The Aes Sedai's training and testing prepares (and ensures the sister is prepared) for a great many different situations, and I do think that Elayne and Nynaeve still need to learn some of those lessons, but the place where Nynaeve and Elayne have an advantage is that lacking that training they have a greater ability to innovate. And I think they are better off than the sisters because of it--if your prepared for 98% of situations then you are less prepared to deal with the 2% then someone used to dealing with new situations.

 

Mind you, when you get a woman with both the innovative ability and the training, you get something very special indeed (Verin, for instance. Or Pevara). It is these latter women whom I think of as the true Aes Sedai--irrespective of their tests or their Oaths, what truly makes someone Aes Sedai is the quality of the service she provides the world. Nynaeve is damn close to being that, if not there. Elayne has further to go, but she has the tools should she ever wise up and decide to use them.

 

Ultimately to answer the original question, yes I think of Nynaeve as Aes Sedai despite her lack of a testing or swearing of the Oaths. Elayne I'm not quite there with--but then by the same token I'm not there with the majority of Aes Sedai. I do think though that they have been slapped around soundly enough that it should begin to sink in on them that maintaining the status quo is not enough.

 

Then the Aes Sedai will be something great.

[Byzantine279]

I would add Moiraine and Cads to that list, Luckers. Both are very... unusual for aes sedai in their ability to adapt to nearly all situations.

[Sagacious Lu]

...never understood why it is so important to always have your emotions in check, it simply means that if you break you will takes ages to recover and it distances you from other people which only a fool would condone).

 

 

If you're talking about keeping your emotions in check with with your friends and family you're absolutely right. If you're conducting serious negotiations it's extremely important to have a good poker face through. It's also important to appear confidant and in control if you're in a leadership position. Think of the Rand's observations about Hurin during the sequence in TGH where they travel through the stone to the world that might have been.

[Manetheren Lord]

I don't see any reason why they couldn't be Aes Sedai. Aes Sedai as it is don't really do anything helpful as the servants of all (as seen in Lucker's thread). Between the two of them they have created ter'angreal, healed stilling, combated forsaken, imprisoned forsaken fought the seanchan, hunted the black ajah, and cleansed the male half of the true source.

[gambril]

Elayne and Nynaeve are more Aes Sedai than 99% of their fellow sisters. The only other women that can even really be considered Aes Sedai in my opinion are Verin, Pevera, Silviana, Moiraine and Cadsuane. Pretty short list, which is sad and supposed to be the point I suppose. I would throw Egwene in there too but she thinks Aes Sedai's shit don't stink too much.

 

Oh and if you want to take channeling experience/ability out of it, Sharina is more Aes Sedai than any other woman in the series. If you're going by what it actually means to be an Aes Sedai.