An Old Theory Reborn

[Sharaman]

A thought occurs to me--what if Aviendha encounters Graendal in her Rhuidean Flashback like Rand encountered Mierin? Could be interesting.

 

Jemron, you can request threads for your own theories. I'm going to be fairly relaxed about that for the prologue release, though I will try for some universality.

She'll encounter Merin as well, everyone remembers the same things that happened before the sharing of the water.

 

I think it's the other way around. Everybody sees the same thing after the Sharing of Water and the Agreement of Rhuidean. Before that (from the drilling of the bore and the destruction of the Collam dan to the sharing of water in Rand's case) they see different things.

 

"Change," Rhuarc said. "You know he brings change, Amys. It is wondering what change, and how, that

makes us like children alone in the dark. Since it must be, let it begin now. No two clan chiefs I have spoken

with have seen through the exactly same eyes, Rand, or exactly the same things, until the sharing of water, and

the meeting where the Agreement of Rhuidean was made. Whether it is the same for Wise Ones, I do not know,

but I suspect it is. I think it is a matter of bloodlines. I believe I saw through the eyes of my ancestors, and you

yours."

"Then you saw Rhuidean just begun building, too," he said. "And the two Aes Sedai. You ... heard what

the one of them said." He will destroy you.

"I heard. " Rhuarc looked resigned, like a man who had learned his leg had to be cut off. "I know.".

 

This makes sense - all the clans that survived were present at the sharing of water and the agreement of Rhuidean so even if they see only from their ancestors' PoV, they see the same incidents. Before that, it's according to bloodlines and they may experience totally different narratives. Hence Avi could perhaps see / learn about Graendal and not learn about Mierin depending on her ancestry.

[Luckers]

A thought occurs to me--what if Aviendha encounters Graendal in her Rhuidean Flashback like Rand encountered Mierin? Could be interesting.

 

Jemron, you can request threads for your own theories. I'm going to be fairly relaxed about that for the prologue release, though I will try for some universality.

She'll encounter Merin as well, everyone remembers the same things that happened before the sharing of the water.

 

I may be wrong--I'm at work and don't have access to the books--but isn't it that prior to the Watersharing they remember the same events, but not necessarily from the same perspective. So whilst they'll remember the destruction of Sharom, it may not be from Mierin's dai'shain's perspective.

[Charlz Guybon]

I expect Graendal to go gunning for Nynaeve, Cadsuane will get killed in the ensuing battle but Nynaeve will win.

[RandAlJazeera]

I also think that Fain is the 'conduit' between the dark one and Rand. He will be the means to seal the bore and reimprison the dark one.

 

If Fain really is the new thing in the pattern, perhaps this could mean the destruction of the dark one permanently??? (naah probably not, it wouldnt be much of a wheel, then)

[Maji]

I have to agree, Avi is overdue for going up against a Forsaken. IMO, Lanfear didn't really count, Avi wasn't very practiced in the OP yet compared to what she is capable of now.

 

Her powerful ter'angreal should put her on close to even footing with Graendal and she could also find something interesting in Rhuidean to be of some aid. Based off this speculation, I think the odds are pretty even in terms of Avi knocking off the Forsaken. She did make a personal statement, almost seemed like a promise, to see to dealing with Rand when she returned since she can face him now.

[Orderofolde]

Hi all...

The major hole in this idea is the fact that Moiraine, while in Rhuidean, had the terangreal and angreal and whatever else may be carted off to the White Tower in Kaderes old wagon trains. Unless you dont believe Moiraine got ALL the terangreals etc.

 

By the way, weve NOT heard at all about that particular wagon load of VERY desireable things....do we know where it is or what became of it?

 

 

From what I understood (I may be remembering wrong) Moraine took what she was able to using Kadere's wagons however that was not all of the ter'angreal.

That's right, I think. There was a ton of stuff in Rhuidean, plus there was all the stuff that looked broken after Rand's fight with Asmo. The wagon's still sitting in Cairhien and is warded and guarded.

 

EDIT: and yes, we haven't heard a word of Kadere's wagons in the story, only RJ's comment that it's still there.

 

There was so much stuff in the square that Moiraine barely scratched the surface on what she took. She carried away what she thought she could recognize and what she thought to be important, but it really only was a small chunk of stuff. There were things there like the tall glass columns and other barely mentioned stuff far too large for a wagon, yet it all was reportedly carried there on the Tinker Wagons many years ago during the breaking and the times of turmoil that followed.

 

As for the wagons, RJ confirmed that they are still in the city, as well as Moiraine's Horse which is in the Sun Palace stables. On some other discussion I saw mentioned that Rand may or may not have hidden them with a weave/ward. That might have been a confirmed question to RJ or someone's thoughts on the matter I can't quite recall, or else every forsaken after Lanfear would have rooted things out of that stash following the battle, if not taken everything.

[martianblues]

Unless I'm mistaken, Rand and co. have moved since Avi has left. Wouldn't that make it pretty hard (and take some time) to find Rand and co? Regardless, I see Avi heading to Elayne first anyways - and saving the day. Possibly helping Mat's quest with a ter'angeral or something of that nature.

 

I also see Avi being saved for Cyndine's downfall. Unless I'm mistaken, she was the one that Lanfear tortured just before she went into the doorway to the Finns. Maybe Cyndine has something to do with whatever is happening to Elayne (after she goes off on a jealous rage about finding who the father of the twins really are.)

 

Avi could easily find Rand anywhere thru her shared warder bond and a couple gateways.

 

Interesting thought about Cynfear being in a jealous rage at Elayne, and she could go after the other two lovers too.

 

I really hope Avi gets to do something bada$$ in this book. She is way overdue. Diverting the stream into the air to put the fire out in TGS was cool, but just an indication of how powerful of a channeler she is and the kind of awesome-ness she could do. And I like the idea of her finding some awesome ter'angreal in Rhuidean. Hmm, a thought just occured to me that some of the Forsaken may want to look into that pile of stuff in Rhuidean to find some goodies, they've all expressed interest in such a cache. That would be a cool confrontation, Avi stumbling upon on the the Forsaken girls in Rhuidean, dueling insues, both of them grabbing items in the cache to hurl the Light knows what at each other.

[WMTom]

Since reading tGS, one of the things which has bothered me was why Avi would have to go through the glass Ter'angreal to be a WO. She knows the truth of the Aiel beginnings. Men coming out of the glass columns get the dragon tattoo thing, women do not. If she already understands the beginning, why send her through the columns? Is it possible the women get something more than the men do, perhaps a better understanding of weaving? I think there is more to the glass columns than has been shown for women. Of course there are other Ter'angreal there as well, it will be an interesting to see what else she finds there.

[DemandredFO]

Aviendha can read terangreal, perhaps she can find something important. Maybe a male angreal or sa'angreal, I'm still hoping to see that other more powerful than Callandor.

[metaphor]

Greandal is one of the most dangerous forsaken.Aviendha is hardly at her level, even with an angreal.

On the other hand, Aviendha has the ability to read the residues of waves, so she could conduit a nice hunt, if Greandal struck and ran.

[Duskfire]

With the True Power, that would give Graendal a huge advantage over pretty much anyone with the exception of Rand and Moridin, and thats not even accounting the strength differences and experience. Aviendah has been channeling what... a year and a half? two years maybe? Graendal would wipe the floor with her. Not every major character needs a Forsaken nemesis. After all, who would have thought that Rand would kill Semiharge. If you had asked me prior to the prologue I would have said Narishma or Egwene would be the one to take on Aran`gar. And Mat and Couladin.. where did that come from? RJ has a habit of surprising with battle outcomes (except for the ones involving Rand.) So yeah, I would be surprised if anything like this happened, or other fan favourites such as Egwene and Mesaana.

[Ashaman Kovan]

Since reading tGS, one of the things which has bothered me was why Avi would have to go through the glass Ter'angreal to be a WO.

 

Because it's ancient tradition to do so?

[WMTom]

IRC there was mention of men getting the Dragons on their arms but what the women got was a closely guarded secret. I think there is more to the Glass collumns.

[Ashaman Kovan]

Well the dragon tats are just that. Tattoos. They don't do anything but symbolize the fact that they went through.

So maybe the wise ones get a belly piercing or something. Or maybe it always turns out to be a tat of an ex and they certainly wouldn't want anyone to see that. ;]

[Kidicaris]

I always got the sense Graendal was quite powerful--in terms of the Power, quite near the top of the female Forsaken in strength, which is tiers above where Egwene, Elayne and Aviendha are. Moiraine once described Nyneave as a sun next to the candles that were Egwene (and Elayne).

 

However, the battle could involve many different scenarios where the Saidar gap is mitigated. TAR, Sa'angreal, Ter'angreal, link, tendrils of man eating mist, betrayal, mistakes, traps, a head full of sparkling ornaments.

Hell, Min could have a vision upon looking into a mirror, Amys could have a bad dream wherein she spoils the end of the book for herself. Let us not forget Rand himself, although I doubt she'll let herself get w/in a league of him--I wonder if people who channel(ed) the True Power can sense it and each other.

 

Any of the forsaken-level channelers around Rand are also wild cards. Maybe Alivia will finally get her moment to fulfill Min's vision due to a Graendal attempt on Rand's life--after killing Graendal herself.

 

I'm partial to Alivia, we've yet to see the old girl let loose. Maybe an on screen slug fest between her and a forsaken is exactly what we need, maybe she learned a thing or two from Cyndane. Oh god now I am getting nostalgic ~~ Nyneave fighting Moghedien in that palace museum...

[Luckers]

I always got the sense Graendal was quite powerful--in terms of the Power, quite near the top of the female Forsaken in strength, which is tiers above where Egwene, Elayne and Aviendha are. Moiraine once described Nyneave as a sun next to the candles that were Egwene (and Elayne).

 

However, the battle could involve many different scenarios where the Saidar gap is mitigated. TAR, Sa'angreal, Ter'angreal, link, tendrils of man eating mist, betrayal, mistakes, traps, a head full of sparkling ornaments.

 

Both Aviendha and Graendal have an angreal. Aviendha's is described as being a strong angreal, Graendal's as a very weak angreal.

 

In terms of strength it should leave them quite close.

[Sharaman]

Moiraine was weaker than Be'lal.

Avi is stronger than Moiraine....

Graendal- Avi if it happens, will boil down to trickiness, not strength.

Both are strong enough to kill the other, or shield the other, if they get the drop.

[Duskfire]

Moiraine was weaker than Be'lal.

Avi is stronger than Moiraine....

Graendal- Avi if it happens, will boil down to trickiness, not strength.

Both are strong enough to kill the other, or shield the other, if they get the drop.

 

True. Its just hard to imagine anyone getting a drop on Graendal; other then balefiring an entire palace, which is something that Aviendah probably wouldnt do :P I imagine after Rand caught her by surprise and almost killed her she will be even more careful this time around.

[DocBean]

I also think that Fain is the 'conduit' between the dark one and Rand. He will be the means to seal the bore and reimprison the dark one.

 

If Fain really is the new thing in the pattern, perhaps this could mean the destruction of the dark one permanently??? (naah probably not, it wouldnt be much of a wheel, then)

 

 

I think The Dark One wants to die.

I think if Rand kills him he's really going to screw things up.

 

UNLESS, he seals up Fain instead.

 

There MUST be a "Dark One" to release in the next age.

Fain fits the bill. He's already becoming more powerful then any darkfriend.

 

I now believe Rand will kill the Dark One, which is what the Dark One wants.

But he will seal Fain up. In doing so, he'll be creating a NEW Dark One.

 

That's why this is such an important turning of the wheel. The Dark One dies. That's rare.

[Sharaman]

Moiraine was weaker than Be'lal.

Avi is stronger than Moiraine....

Graendal- Avi if it happens, will boil down to trickiness, not strength.

Both are strong enough to kill the other, or shield the other, if they get the drop.

 

True. Its just hard to imagine anyone getting a drop on Graendal; other then balefiring an entire palace, which is something that Aviendah probably wouldnt do :P I imagine after Rand caught her by surprise and almost killed her she will be even more careful this time around.

 

Aviendha's a Maiden of the Spear -she's used to fighting for her life, finding cover where there is almost none, and using bare hands/ feet and physical weapons. She might be capable of sliding into Graendal's space, unnoticed and Avi could kill Graendal with her bare hands, without breathing hard. That may just be an important edge - it was, when Rand punched out Asmodean while both were drawing on the CK.

[Duskfire]

Moiraine was weaker than Be'lal.

Avi is stronger than Moiraine....

Graendal- Avi if it happens, will boil down to trickiness, not strength.

Both are strong enough to kill the other, or shield the other, if they get the drop.

 

True. Its just hard to imagine anyone getting a drop on Graendal; other then balefiring an entire palace, which is something that Aviendah probably wouldnt do :P I imagine after Rand caught her by surprise and almost killed her she will be even more careful this time around.

 

Aviendha's a Maiden of the Spear -she's used to fighting for her life, finding cover where there is almost none, and using bare hands/ feet and physical weapons. She might be capable of sliding into Graendal's space, unnoticed and Avi could kill Graendal with her bare hands, without breathing hard. That may just be an important edge - it was, when Rand punched out Asmodean while both were drawing on the CK.

 

Thats true, but the problem here will be recognising Graendal as a channeler at all. She could easily hide her strength and just work of the True Power and being her could just do things from the distance. Graendal never outright attacks; if she was going to get at Rand or one of his loved ones it would be through her usual means of subtety and compulsion. Thats why I find it hard that Aviendah will best her. If she was going to fight anyone, it would be someone like Cyndane who is alot less subtle.

 

I am not saying its impossible, just pointing out based on what we know of Graendal someone actually being able to catch her would be extremely hard. Especially another female channeler. Rand wasnt able to do it with craptons of balefire raining down upon a palace suddenly.

[Kestrel]

I think The Dark One wants to die.

I think if Rand kills him he's really going to screw things up.

 

UNLESS, he seals up Fain instead.

 

There MUST be a "Dark One" to release in the next age.

Fain fits the bill. He's already becoming more powerful then any darkfriend.

 

I now believe Rand will kill the Dark One, which is what the Dark One wants.

But he will seal Fain up. In doing so, he'll be creating a NEW Dark One.

 

That's why this is such an important turning of the wheel. The Dark One dies. That's rare.

 

Interesting, but how about a different twist?

 

RJ did tell us that Fain was a wild card, unique to this age.

 

So we will see Rand seal up the Dark One AND Fain together. The two spend the rest of eternity consuming each other, just like Rand's Ishy-wound and Fain-wound consume each other.

[Lisa Campbell]

Or Fain and Shadar Haran?

[Sharaman]

Moiraine was weaker than Be'lal.

Avi is stronger than Moiraine....

Graendal- Avi if it happens, will boil down to trickiness, not strength.

Both are strong enough to kill the other, or shield the other, if they get the drop.

 

True. Its just hard to imagine anyone getting a drop on Graendal; other then balefiring an entire palace, which is something that Aviendah probably wouldnt do :P I imagine after Rand caught her by surprise and almost killed her she will be even more careful this time around.

 

Aviendha's a Maiden of the Spear -she's used to fighting for her life, finding cover where there is almost none, and using bare hands/ feet and physical weapons. She might be capable of sliding into Graendal's space, unnoticed and Avi could kill Graendal with her bare hands, without breathing hard. That may just be an important edge - it was, when Rand punched out Asmodean while both were drawing on the CK.

 

Thats true, but the problem here will be recognising Graendal as a channeler at all. She could easily hide her strength and just work of the True Power and being her could just do things from the distance. Graendal never outright attacks; if she was going to get at Rand or one of his loved ones it would be through her usual means of subtety and compulsion. Thats why I find it hard that Aviendah will best her. If she was going to fight anyone, it would be someone like Cyndane who is alot less subtle.

 

I am not saying its impossible, just pointing out based on what we know of Graendal someone actually being able to catch her would be extremely hard. Especially another female channeler. Rand wasnt able to do it with craptons of balefire raining down upon a palace suddenly.

 

Here's the makings of a possible plot-twist. Therava-Galina and the Shaido are heading for the Waste. There are Shaido WOs going to Rhuidean with Benduin to help him become clan chief (by giving him a quorum of WOs with permission to enter the columns). They've seen Maisia, know she's a very strong channeler, and might recognise her. Avi runs into them...

[mossman87]

Moiraine was weaker than Be'lal.

Avi is stronger than Moiraine....

Graendal- Avi if it happens, will boil down to trickiness, not strength.

Both are strong enough to kill the other, or shield the other, if they get the drop.

 

True. Its just hard to imagine anyone getting a drop on Graendal; other then balefiring an entire palace, which is something that Aviendah probably wouldnt do :P I imagine after Rand caught her by surprise and almost killed her she will be even more careful this time around.

 

Aviendha's a Maiden of the Spear -she's used to fighting for her life, finding cover where there is almost none, and using bare hands/ feet and physical weapons. She might be capable of sliding into Graendal's space, unnoticed and Avi could kill Graendal with her bare hands, without breathing hard. That may just be an important edge - it was, when Rand punched out Asmodean while both were drawing on the CK.

 

Thats true, but the problem here will be recognising Graendal as a channeler at all. She could easily hide her strength and just work of the True Power and being her could just do things from the distance. Graendal never outright attacks; if she was going to get at Rand or one of his loved ones it would be through her usual means of subtety and compulsion. Thats why I find it hard that Aviendah will best her. If she was going to fight anyone, it would be someone like Cyndane who is alot less subtle.

 

I am not saying its impossible, just pointing out based on what we know of Graendal someone actually being able to catch her would be extremely hard. Especially another female channeler. Rand wasnt able to do it with craptons of balefire raining down upon a palace suddenly.

 

Here's the makings of a possible plot-twist. Therava-Galina and the Shaido are heading for the Waste. There are Shaido WOs going to Rhuidean with Benduin to help him become clan chief (by giving him a quorum of WOs with permission to enter the columns). They've seen Maisia, know she's a very strong channeler, and might recognise her. Avi runs into them...

 

Mind. Blown.