Super Spoiler PoV

[sdelu]

That seems to be because your looking for it not to be 'good storytelling'. That the Dark One had power over animals has been known for the first book, we simply did not think about the concept that that power could be expanded beyond what was known--and that it could be makes logical sense. The Myrdraal draw this ability from their connection to the Dark One. The Forsaken have a stronger connection to the Dark One. That they could both do things Myrdraal can, and that they could do more than Myrdraal, are reasonable progressions.

 

I for one welcome the Forsaken getting some badassery back. With the existence of Shaidar Haren, and the spreading of AoL knowledge through Asmo and Moggy, they lost a great deal of what made them unique. That they can pull stuff like this is great.

 

Oh I agree completely. I don't mind that she is alive so much as how she achieved the feat, and as I've stated it provides a good opportunity for a Forsaken to finally kill one of the good guys. Really, I think what I'm looking forward to most about ToM is that we will actually see a good character die, and possibly more than one. It has been a long time coming. Still, the Forsaken have a track record of coming back "from the dead" and I for one am sick of it. I swear, if Semirhage somehow shows up in the next book I think I'll light it on fire.

 

As for your first point concerning "looking" for shoddy storytelling, well, everyone has their own opinion of what feels like "cheating" to them, and thus what constitutes "bad storytelling." I don't think it's so much that (for instance) I am looking for it as much as the section made me pause and drew me out of the story. The reason people react to certain sections of a good book in negative ways is generally that there is something that pulls them away and makes them stop and really consider the plausibility of what they just read. And if it can draw someone so fully away from the story the reaction will be pretty strong. That's what happened to me when I read it. No amount of "but the animals were controlled from the start!" is going to change the fact that when I read it it just felt wrong to me.

 

Either way, I'm really interested to see where RJ and BS take this. There is a huge opportunity to have some very powerful scenes, and we know we'll be getting some... I just wonder who they will involve. Knowing what we know from the series I don't think that Graendal will end up going after Min and Nynaeve. Things are never so simple, and she has a lot to learn about what is important to Rand. I think going after Tam, Elayne and his children (assuming he learns of them), Moiraine if she comes back (wouldn't that suck?), Loial, Egwene, some of the Maidens, Mat/Perrin and other people who are "easier" targets than Nynaeve and Min would have just as strong an impact if they are killed in the right way*. Really, I think it would be hard to get at Min with her so close to Rand (although that might make it even better since Rand will feel he failed her). As for Nynaeve, well, she could probably take Graendal in a straight up fight, and with all her ter'angreal it would be hard to get to her without it being something lame like poison.

 

* By the "right way" I feel that to make Rand feel as bad as possible she can't simply kill people who are close to him, she needs to make him feel like it was his fault they died. Killing Min and Nynaeve will make Rand feel like crap, but killing them and making it look as if he failed them would be a lot worse. I guess this could be done easily enough by revealing herself afterward ("Ha! You didn't kill me, loser!") but I think she is much more diabolical than that.

[Duskfire]

My main problem is it is her usage of TP. Not that she uses it as such, but that RJ and BS are so good at dropping hints and foreshadowing what is going to happen, and laying the backbone of later events. With this though, we had nothing. There was not a glimmer that there was even another Forsaken allowed to use the TP. Thats my problem. We were told all throughout the series since Moridins arrival that he was the only allowed to use the TP, and then all of a sudden Graendal can. So many times throughout the series something happens seemingly from out of nowhere and then you think back and its like, 'Ahh, I should have seen that coming." With this though, nothing.

 

And another thing; why was Graendal rewarded? What has she actually done as a Forsaken that others haven't? I am not neccessarily saying she is useless - she is a cool villain. However, she kept a nation in a state of chaos that was already halfway there without her even being there. Heck, Carridin did that with fake Dragonsworn and Whitecloaks and he eventually got killed for his efforts. Mesaana until recently had the Tower on the verge of collapse, etc etc. I guess I really dont see what Graendal has done that had her get rewarded over the others.

[Luckers]

Moridin stated directly that she would be experiencing privileges, and that they would expand. Access to the True Power has always been a privilege, even before the restriction to Moridin. What more foreshadow do you need?

 

As for why she was rewarded--thats an interesting question, isn't it? Moridin states her initiative was the reason, but when has she displayed initiative--disrupting Arad Domon was obeying commands about letting the Lord of Chaos rule.

 

Brandon said there was a hint about how killed Asmodean in tGS. I suspect this was it.

[TreeJoe]

We also know that the Blue Ajah has secret weaves about control over animals. That's been around for a long time.

 

I think having the first real scene of Graendal's deviousness is being confused with 'convenience'....

[mikael]

My main problem is it is her usage of TP. Not that she uses it as such, but that RJ and BS are so good at dropping hints and foreshadowing what is going to happen, and laying the backbone of later events. With this though, we had nothing. There was not a glimmer that there was even another Forsaken allowed to use the TP. Thats my problem. We were told all throughout the series since Moridins arrival that he was the only allowed to use the TP, and then all of a sudden Graendal can. So many times throughout the series something happens seemingly from out of nowhere and then you think back and its like, 'Ahh, I should have seen that coming." With this though, nothing.

 

And another thing; why was Graendal rewarded? What has she actually done as a Forsaken that others haven't? I am not neccessarily saying she is useless - she is a cool villain. However, she kept a nation in a state of chaos that was already halfway there without her even being there. Heck, Carridin did that with fake Dragonsworn and Whitecloaks and he eventually got killed for his efforts. Mesaana until recently had the Tower on the verge of collapse, etc etc. I guess I really dont see what Graendal has done that had her get rewarded over the others.

 

This, and who here wouldve supported a theory that relied on, 1. Graendal channeling the TP and 2. her using it to control a bird and look through its eyes at Rand? The controlling of animals shouldve been told about, maybe like "in the war of power we killed all animals bla bla bla" or "who knew what they could do in the AoL, there were records of people flying and using animals as spies..." and if using the TP is such a reward it wouldnt have hurt to have had Graendal have some more impact before rewarding her. On a side note, havent the TP been considered way too damaging in the past, only used in dire situations etc, not to impress someone that already rely on you?

 

It will be nice to see who she kills though, and if she doesnt kill anyone, this will be a low, low point in this series.

 

Edit: Didnt think about asmo, that may warrant a reward I guess.

[jdbond]

My main problem is it is her usage of TP. Not that she uses it as such, but that RJ and BS are so good at dropping hints and foreshadowing what is going to happen, and laying the backbone of later events. With this though, we had nothing. There was not a glimmer that there was even another Forsaken allowed to use the TP. Thats my problem. We were told all throughout the series since Moridins arrival that he was the only allowed to use the TP, and then all of a sudden Graendal can. So many times throughout the series something happens seemingly from out of nowhere and then you think back and its like, 'Ahh, I should have seen that coming." With this though, nothing.

 

Moridin's meeting with Grandel in TGS was a hint of sort. It fits nicely with the fact that she is not Naeblis and so she gets only partial perks.

 

And another thing; why was Graendal rewarded? What has she actually done as a Forsaken that others haven't? I am not neccessarily saying she is useless - she is a cool villain. However, she kept a nation in a state of chaos that was already halfway there without her even being there. Heck, Carridin did that with fake Dragonsworn and Whitecloaks and he eventually got killed for his efforts. Mesaana until recently had the Tower on the verge of collapse, etc etc. I guess I really dont see what Graendal has done that had her get rewarded over the others.

 

Who knows.

[sdelu]

Relevant to the recent posts:

 

I don't think Graendal would be rewarded for killing Asmodean. I mean, as far as I can tell, he was nearing the end of his usefulness and would not have made a great ally to Rand. Heck, I don't think he even would have allied with Rand. Rand has proven more than able to learn the OP without Asmodean to guide him.

 

Plus, it is expected that DF's who betray the DO will be killed. Why would that warrant a reward? Perhaps Graendal had some sort of hand in Rahvin's death (a betrayal, of sorts--after all, if we're laboring under the assumption that she killed Asmo, then she would have been around while Rahvin and Rand fought, and we know that they were in some form of cahoots. If she did kill Asmo, why would SHE be there, and not the others?), or something that we have yet to discover.

 

I don't have the books with me, but didn't Moridin say something about her "initiative"? What initiative is there in killing a traitor to the Dark One? Now, there is a heck of a lot more initiative involved in causing the death of one of the other Forsaken, especially if it cannot be traced back to her....

 

By the way, isn't it odd that Graendal thinks that getting Aran'gar killed is something to be worried about? After all, we know that the Forsaken have fought amongst themselves since the AoL, and have killed each other in the past. Perhaps that has changed now that the DO has so few of his Forsaken left, which could be something, but the DO doesn't really seem to care much for them.

 

I think it's likely something we have seen the effects of, but can't really pin on her yet. Spies, maybe, or compulsing important people. I really can't buy it simply being Asmodean.

 

 

 

 

 

More on the "Forcing" of the scene for those who care:

We also know that the Blue Ajah has secret weaves about control over animals. That's been around for a long time.

 

I think having the first real scene of Graendal's deviousness is being confused with 'convenience'....

 

No, there's no confusion on my part. I think you're missing the point, here. This has nothing to do with Graendal's "deviousness," which I call into doubt anyway. For pretty much the entire series the True Power has been vilified, even by some of the Forsaken. Everything leading up to this section of the prologue screams "Moridin Only!" for the True Power. There is no indication that the restriction would be lifted. Moridin saying that Graendal would experience rewards is not a strong enough connection to her being granted access to the TP, not after books and books of being beaten over the head with the idea of how dangerous it is and how Moridin is so insane to use it.

 

Now, can I buy that by a reward Moridin meant access to the True Power? Sure, why not? But there is nothing to indicate that this is actually going to happen. We go from all we have learned about how awful the TP is to "you will be rewarded" to "hey I have the TP now which has a secret weave which I just used to spy on Rand which allowed me to live." There is something missing in between those phases that is what makes this feel contrived. I'm sorry to say that there was little to no precedent of one of the Forsaken being granted access to the TP in this age, especially with how big a deal was made about ONLY Moridin having access and ONLY Moridin being willing to use it. That's part of what made Rand using it so powerful.

 

Now we come to learn that, Surprise! Another Forsaken you thought dead is alive, because she has access to the True Power!

 

I mean, can nobody even throw me a bone here and agree how it can at least be perceived as forced?

 

This discussion will inevitably degenerate into an "argument" of sorts, because this is all about perception and personal feeling. We cannot convince you, you cannot convince us. I think, though, that the reasoning behind our "argument" is being ignored in favor of attempting to explain why we are wrong. No, I did not miss the fact that Moridin said Graendal would be rewarded, and I didn't miss the fact that animals have been used as spies. I don't even deny that that is a possible explanation (if not a very good one). That's not the issue at hand. It's easy to go back over 12 books and come up with reasons why something could, theoretically, happen, and then take that as confirmation that it was all there for us to see. But there isn't a solid line connecting events in this instance. It's more of a wavering squiggly thing that tests my sense of plausibility, and I found it hard to accept.

 

The reason it even bears discussion is because it sets up a lot of possibilities for the rest of the series. If those things all come to pass because of something that really should not have happened... well, that would kind of ruin it for me. That's all.

 

I also feel like people may be getting the impression that I'm faulting BWS for this (I read a few posts in other places about "Brandon Bashing"). Just want to say that's not the case here, and that I have nothing bad to say about the job he's done on the WoT. I just don't like this particular sequence :)

[Dunedain Fal]

Is it just me or Graendal's POV was kinda flat? It didn't really have that kind of climatic feeling that we are so used to in previous books?

[Impressive Bosom]

 

I mean, can nobody even throw me a bone here and agree how it can at least be perceived as forced?

 

I also feel like people may be getting the impression that I'm faulting BWS for this (I read a few posts in other places about "Brandon Bashing"). Just want to say that's not the case here, and that I have nothing bad to say about the job he's done on the WoT. I just don't like this particular sequence :)

I thought her escape was completely plausible. I also thought it felt a bit forced, as if RJ had written the scene where Rand Balefires the fortress and then left a note in the margin saying '...but Grady survies' and left it to BS to explain things, which he did in the most plausible way he could come up with.

 

Just my perception though. Very possibly, once the full book becomes available, facts may arise that make it seem less contrived.

[Chesus]

I liked it. A lot. And I thought for sure she was dead. I don't see what the problem is.

[Natural Born Killer]

This discussion will inevitably degenerate into an "argument" of sorts, because this is all about perception and personal feeling. We cannot convince you, you cannot convince us. I think, though, that the reasoning behind our "argument" is being ignored in favor of attempting to explain why we are wrong. No, I did not miss the fact that Moridin said Graendal would be rewarded, and I didn't miss the fact that animals have been used as spies. I don't even deny that that is a possible explanation (if not a very good one). That's not the issue at hand. It's easy to go back over 12 books and come up with reasons why something could, theoretically, happen, and then take that as confirmation that it was all there for us to see. But there isn't a solid line connecting events in this instance. It's more of a wavering squiggly thing that tests my sense of plausibility, and I found it hard to accept.

 

The reason it even bears discussion is because it sets up a lot of possibilities for the rest of the series. If those things all come to pass because of something that really should not have happened... well, that would kind of ruin it for me. That's all.

 

I also feel like people may be getting the impression that I'm faulting BWS for this (I read a few posts in other places about "Brandon Bashing"). Just want to say that's not the case here, and that I have nothing bad to say about the job he's done on the WoT. I just don't like this particular sequence :)

I hope you don't feel like people are arguing with you just to put you down. I've enjoyed following the discussion, and I appropriate your contributions to the discussion and your views of the prologue. :) The point of a discussion-board is to discuss. Thankfully we have different views on things, or else this would be quite a boring place.

 

[oh, and meta-discussions (discussion about the discussion) is also a classic online-discussion board win ;)]

[TreeJoe]

Hi Sdelu,

 

Well, i personally thought her palace being balefired was forced. While an awesome scene, I was very dissapointed in a character so built up being wiped out so quickly. So yes, I felt her subsequent escape was possible.

 

I agree with you TOO much on the true power beinbuilt up as this terrible thing. Seriously.

 

Let's step back a minute: Aginor used it lots apparently to create shadowspawn.

 

And, speaking of which, wasn't Aginor's whole character a farce? A brilliant scholar who invented all sorts of Shadowspawn and what did he accomplish? Looking half-mad and dazed all the time? How about Asmodean?

 

Compared to those two and their whole story-arcs, Graendal's is looking rock solid :)

[Barid Bel Medar]

 

"Male or female, no one could see or sense the weaves - not unless he or she had been granted the privilege of channeling the True Power"

 

Rand channeled the true Power in the previous book, so that does qualify him for sensing when its channeled around him.

 

Thats untrue.

 

AaronB20 asks: Can you clarify who can tell when one is using the True Power?

RJ: No one can tell if you're using the True Power except the Dark One, of course.

[MoonBeams]

 

"Male or female, no one could see or sense the weaves - not unless he or she had been granted the privilege of channeling the True Power"

 

Rand channeled the true Power in the previous book, so that does qualify him for sensing when its channeled around him.

 

Thats untrue.

 

AaronB20 asks: Can you clarify who can tell when one is using the True Power?

RJ: No one can tell if you're using the True Power except the Dark One, of course.

 

 

Seems like either the book is wrong, cuz that's what it said or either RJ is wrong. Either way we shall see when the books finally come out

[DPT24]

I read the prolouge, and although I firmly believed she hadn't survived after TGS, the prolouge was well writen. I'm guessing, since originally they were 1 book, the Greandal scene wasn't meant to be in the original prolouge, but it all made sense. She thought Nyneave could track her, so she had Delana and Angor use compulsion instead, becasue a Saidin weave would have confused them (but they didn't seem to notice) and then when she realised what was going to happen, she had to let them die, because otherwise Rand would have been suspicious. Although, to be fair, she could have risked it and taken at least Angor with her, but now she's even more dangerous. The only good news for Rand is he IS expecting multiple forsaken to attack him, so he should still be on his guard, but thinking Greandal's dead when she's not.... that's dangerous, very very ver dangerous. That said, it didn't feel forshadowed or hinted at all in TGS that Grandeal would survive.

[Duskfire]

Kudos sdelu; what you said was exactly what I wanted to say, but with better words. Forced is a good way to put it. I have no problem with Graendal surviving - rather her then the Aran`gar who as far as we can tell did basically nothing while having Egwene at hand. Just how forced the situation seemed to be. And the fact that Demandred was scared to death of using TP and used it in emergencies only, and yet Graendal just flaunted it like it was nothing.

 

Not only that, but to me anyway it just seems to take away from Rand a little. Prior to the prologue the only three TP-users were Moridin, Shadar Haran, and Rand. To me that was symbolic of their connection (Moridin and Rand anyway) and while that symbolism still exists, now theres Graendal running around. And if she has been awarded, who's to say Demandred or Mesaana haven't either (Mesaana probably not, her being raped probably puts her low on the reward side of things) but still.

[jdbond]

Relevant to the recent posts:

 

I don't think Graendal would be rewarded for killing Asmodean. I mean, as far as I can tell, he was nearing the end of his usefulness and would not have made a great ally to Rand. Heck, I don't think he even would have allied with Rand. Rand has proven more than able to learn the OP without Asmodean to guide him.

 

 

That's from our perspective. Forsaken had no way of knowing how useful Asmodena was to Rand.

 

 

 

 

 

 

No, there's no confusion on my part. I think you're missing the point, here. This has nothing to do with Graendal's "deviousness," which I call into doubt anyway. For pretty much the entire series the True Power has been vilified, even by some of the Forsaken. Everything leading up to this section of the prologue screams "Moridin Only!" for the True Power. There is no indication that the restriction would be lifted. Moridin saying that Graendal would experience rewards is not a strong enough connection to her being granted access to the TP, not after books and books of being beaten over the head with the idea of how dangerous it is and how Moridin is so insane to use it.

 

And yet Ishmael used TP all the time and so did many other "chosen". Also TP was given to Moridin only after his ascension to position of Naebelis. So it cannot be from Book 1, can it be? I am sure other could use it too before but chose not to. As for not telling us, big deal. So now we know what reward you get for being one position below Naebelis. Real surprise would have been if somehow Arang'ar or Demandred was able to use it.

 

Now, can I buy that by a reward Moridin meant access to the True Power? Sure, why not? But there is nothing to indicate that this is actually going to happen. We go from all we have learned about how awful the TP is to "you will be rewarded" to "hey I have the TP now which has a secret weave which I just used to spy on Rand which allowed me to live." There is something missing in between those phases that is what makes this feel contrived. I'm sorry to say that there was little to no precedent of one of the Forsaken being granted access to the TP in this age, especially with how big a deal was made about ONLY Moridin having access and ONLY Moridin being willing to use it. That's part of what made Rand using it so powerful.

 

 

Moridin said you will be rewarded and in next book we find out she gets a very limited access to TP. You guys are really taking it heart, aren't you! This a fantasy book. Readers are expected to imagine things that aren't in the book.

 

Again, Moridin is Ishamel reborn. Where exactly in the books it says that TP was restricted to one forsaken before Moridin? Restriction came in like 5th or 6th book. And Rand is powerful because of his superior ability to control weaves and able to channel more OP than others. Most forsaken had access to TP in AOL and still Lews Therin handed them their behinds including Ishamel.

 

Now we come to learn that, Surprise! Another Forsaken you thought dead is alive, because she has access to the True Power!

 

No one saw her die. Relax. Aran'gar is dead. All forsaken killed by balefire have remained dead. No need to make fun of story.

[jdbond]

I read the prolouge, and although I firmly believed she hadn't survived after TGS, the prolouge was well writen. I'm guessing, since originally they were 1 book, the Greandal scene wasn't meant to be in the original prolouge, but it all made sense. She thought Nyneave could track her, so she had Delana and Angor use compulsion instead, becasue a Saidin weave would have confused them (but they didn't seem to notice) and then when she realised what was going to happen, she had to let them die, because otherwise Rand would have been suspicious. Although, to be fair, she could have risked it and taken at least Angor with her, but now she's even more dangerous. The only good news for Rand is he IS expecting multiple forsaken to attack him, so he should still be on his guard, but thinking Greandal's dead when she's not.... that's dangerous, very very ver dangerous. That said, it didn't feel forshadowed or hinted at all in TGS that Grandeal would survive.

 

 

Bah. Grandel might be a conniving b**** but we are yet to see her in actual fight with someone who can match her in OP. She has no b**** (literally or figuratively) to face Rand or anyone worth anything. Her comment about killing Nynaeve was typical "chosen" talk. I be more concerned about Min but we know Min will live to see rand die (something like that).

[Charlz Guybon]

Her comment about killing Nynaeve was typical "chosen" talk. I be more concerned about Min but we know Min will live to see rand die (something like that).

We don't know anything of the sort, it could easily be Egwene who's the "one who sees beyond" and in fact I expect it to be. The three women in the boat will actually be in one of Egwene's skimming barge. Min is toast.

[itsjustme]

Her comment about killing Nynaeve was typical "chosen" talk. I be more concerned about Min but we know Min will live to see rand die (something like that).

We don't know anything of the sort, it could easily be Egwene who's the "one who sees beyond" and in fact I expect it to be. The three women in the boat will actually be in one of Egwene's skimming barge. Min is toast.

 

As I posted in more detail in entry #94 of this very discussion, and a few other places around here and there. Glad to see someone else picked up on it.

[Luckers]

Her comment about killing Nynaeve was typical "chosen" talk. I be more concerned about Min but we know Min will live to see rand die (something like that).

We don't know anything of the sort, it could easily be Egwene who's the "one who sees beyond" and in fact I expect it to be. The three women in the boat will actually be in one of Egwene's skimming barge. Min is toast.

 

As I posted in more detail in entry #94 of this very discussion, and a few other places around here and there. Glad to see someone else picked up on it.

 

After which Rand will find a note tucked away in one of her books. "How to Defeat the Dark One in Five Easy Steps, by Min Farshaw".

[itsjustme]

Her comment about killing Nynaeve was typical "chosen" talk. I be more concerned about Min but we know Min will live to see rand die (something like that).

We don't know anything of the sort, it could easily be Egwene who's the "one who sees beyond" and in fact I expect it to be. The three women in the boat will actually be in one of Egwene's skimming barge. Min is toast.

 

As I posted in more detail in entry #94 of this very discussion, and a few other places around here and there. Glad to see someone else picked up on it.

 

After which Rand will find a note tucked away in one of her books. "How to Defeat the Dark One in Five Easy Steps, by Min Farshaw".

NICE ONE!!! Actually, I think all 3 of Rand's ladies might be in on figuring that out. Elayne is having trouble channeling lately so Aviendha will power that librarian ter'angreal she discovered in KoD, Elayne will translate the old tongue, and Min will figure out what it all means. Then Min gets whacked. I've never wanted to be more wrong on a theory (Min dying that is, I really hope my theory on the librarian being the "treasure as great as the bowl" is right). I really like Min, but there's just too many things going on to make me think she survives. Egwene's use of a "ferry" or "barge" for her preferred skimming method just screams out as the answer to the "three on a boat" foretelling. And I can't imagine Min allowing herself to not be there with Rand's body.

[jdbond]

Her comment about killing Nynaeve was typical "chosen" talk. I be more concerned about Min but we know Min will live to see rand die (something like that).

We don't know anything of the sort, it could easily be Egwene who's the "one who sees beyond" and in fact I expect it to be. The three women in the boat will actually be in one of Egwene's skimming barge. Min is toast.

 

 

So Amrylin of white tower is going to be one of the three women?

[itsjustme]

Her comment about killing Nynaeve was typical "chosen" talk. I be more concerned about Min but we know Min will live to see rand die (something like that).

We don't know anything of the sort, it could easily be Egwene who's the "one who sees beyond" and in fact I expect it to be. The three women in the boat will actually be in one of Egwene's skimming barge. Min is toast.

 

 

So Amrylin of white tower is going to be one of the three women?

Yep, that pretty well sums it up. At least that's my theory.

[csarmi]

I don't think Graendal would be rewarded for killing Asmodean. I mean, as far as I can tell, he was nearing the end of his usefulness and would not have made a great ally to Rand. Heck, I don't think he even would have allied with Rand. Rand has proven more than able to learn the OP without Asmodean to guide him.

 

We're reading different books then.

As far as I can tell, Asmodean was a great help and would continue to be so. Not to mention being loyal to him.

 

1) The difference he made: Without him, Rand never would have stood a chance.

2) About his usefulness being over: All it would take is Rand coming to trust one single female channeler to make a huge difference. They could create a link of three, which would benefit Rand's learning. Not to mention that apparently, in the Age of Legends it was part of a channeler's education to learn to weave the other half of the True Source as well, so Asmo could teach about that too. I understand he's a bad teacher, but that'd still open up possibilities.

3) For me, his PoV and his actions show clearly that he was becoming loyal to Rand. Well, as loyal as he could be. Not to mention Rand had been his only chance really. I'm sure he would have turned to the Light, especially after Rand cleansed saidin.