Discuss the Prologue

[Tom Sawyer]

Well, it's cool that Graendal's still alive. I was in the camp that she was dead mainly because with only two books left, it's silly cluttering up the storyline with extraneous Forsaken when there's so many other plots to wrap up. Trading Aran'gar for her worked well, though, since she hadn't done anything of note and was relatively pointless (everything she did with the Salidar group could have been done by a random BA just as well). More Graendal scenes are far better than more Aran'gar scenes as she's a much better character and I'm glad we haven't seen the last of her.

 

I think she's going to be going after Nynaeve first and Min's vision of Nyn crying over someone's grave is because of Graendal trying to get to her. My first thought would be that she kills Lan, but that would make me want to bludgeon the author to death. Given that the initial writeups indicate that there's apparently a scene or two where people want to bludgeon the author to death (although the scene's are apparently excellently written), that may what happens, though. It's not like she won't see him a few chapters later anyways when Mat blows the Horn.

[MoonBeams]

The Fain POV -- after re-reading the prologue, Fain has evolved into a super-evil force, but his evil is anti-Dark One:

 

1) He has the knife from Shadar Logoth that bring a connection to the evil that killed off Trollocs and Myrddraal;

2) He has the fog from Shadar Logoth that kills anyone and anything indiscriminately (again including Trollocs and Myrddraal;

3) He now has the power of the Black Wind/Machin Shin that can eat/taste flesh ("The creature that had been Mordeth had tasted both, and Trolloc flesh had little to recommend it", and "...lips parted, enjoying his feast"

 

Also, the Trollocs skin blistered which reminds me of how Moiraine and company found the Trollocs in The Ways in EOTW

 

So Fain now has all the anti-Dark One powers, I can see now how he thinks he can kill the Dark One.

[DocBean]

The Fain POV -- after re-reading the prologue, Fain has evolved into a super-evil force, but his evil is anti-Dark One:

 

1) He has the knife from Shadar Logoth that bring a connection to the evil that killed off Trollocs and Myrddraal;

2) He has the fog from Shadar Logoth that kills anyone and anything indiscriminately (again including Trollocs and Myrddraal;

3) He now has the power of the Black Wind/Machin Shin that can eat/taste flesh ("The creature that had been Mordeth had tasted both, and Trolloc flesh had little to recommend it", and "...lips parted, enjoying his feast"

 

Also, the Trollocs skin blistered which reminds me of how Moiraine and company found the Trollocs in The Ways in EOTW

 

So Fain now has all the anti-Dark One powers, I can see now how he thinks he can kill the Dark One.

 

 

....or become him in the next Age.

 

I actually knew Fain before he became famous.

I was Digging for gold and it was a hard Unforgiving Existence in a Dusty town not far away from the Two Rivers!

One of my fellow miners was Fain!

we had almighty rows on account of I was the only one digging!

I told Fain that it was all very Honorable supporting his "Great Lord" and all, but that wont put Beans on the table!

We never recovered our friendship from that exchange of words, and when he made It Big he told me where I could Shove my Shovel.

It was about then that I started Crying.

[theblacksmith]

The Fain POV -- after re-reading the prologue, Fain has evolved into a super-evil force, but his evil is anti-Dark One:

 

1) He has the knife from Shadar Logoth that bring a connection to the evil that killed off Trollocs and Myrddraal;

2) He has the fog from Shadar Logoth that kills anyone and anything indiscriminately (again including Trollocs and Myrddraal;

3) He now has the power of the Black Wind/Machin Shin that can eat/taste flesh ("The creature that had been Mordeth had tasted both, and Trolloc flesh had little to recommend it", and "...lips parted, enjoying his feast"

 

Also, the Trollocs skin blistered which reminds me of how Moiraine and company found the Trollocs in The Ways in EOTW

 

So Fain now has all the anti-Dark One powers, I can see now how he thinks he can kill the Dark One.

 

 

....or become him in the next Age.

 

 

Why, Doc do you feel so sdamantly about this? I will say if you are right you will have complete gloating rights, but...Why do you not subscribe to the evidence that:

 

1) The DO is not human

2) The DO was never human

3) The DO is truly immortal, and thus able to pass this gift in some form to his most faithful followers

4) Fain is possesed, been changed to another form of evil power, but these powers have always been presnt in other ages

5) These powers mixed with the DO's own work on this individual does no render him on the same scale as a virtual Diety

6) The Creator is a constant (his champion the DR) is his constant. Would not a worthy adversary be a constant in this scenario?

7) I submit the DO is as constant as the Creator and his champion has also been a constant, because he alone among all present storyline persona speaks of an ages long battle between them, (which leads me to believe that the DO will be the DO for all ages)

 

Fain himself is a "Wildcard" he will change something, I do not believe it will be that in this age the DO will be defeated for all time, it could be that he simply will alter the cards so that the DR does not have to "die" this time. Fain will die (hopefully not as gollum) and I understand alot of people saying this time has to be different or why tell the story. LMAO, RJ was a "true" story teller and just having people to gather, listen, and be momentarily captivated by your tale is enough...don't you think.

 

If Rand dies and all things are as foretold, why would you hate this story, do you feel cheated thus far or have you made some friends here discussing a tale that totally captivated you? When you get to the third/fourth chapter are you absently grinning at the antics of the characters as if they are old friends visiting again? I call BS (not Brandon either) on anyone who writes that they have not enjoyed this tale because if so they would not be on this sight to see my post LOL.

 

Lastly, I am not familiar with any of Brandon's work so I cannot respond or argue your opinions of balance, and matter exchange etc. as a reason for Fain, Mat, Rand's warp either. This was a decision I made after he was selected to finish this tale and I saw all of the stuff he was already working on...I am a WoT fan and had never heard of him, so I decided I would not distract him by buying all of his other stuff so he could finish this series. But I also posted on his sight that when he finished that I would buy all of his books in duplicate as a thank you...

 

Hmmmm got off topic, but the wheel weaves...

[Duskfire]

Why, Doc do you feel so sdamantly about this? I will say if you are right you will have complete gloating rights, but...Why do you not subscribe to the evidence that:

 

Well, in my case I like the idea that it'll change. That somehow Rand will do something that will make this Age different to every other previous turning. Fain is unique, therefore if Rand were to do something different, presumably it will involve the unknown variable that is Fain. Its possible it'll be like you said and maybe stop Rand from dying at all and thats what the change will be. However I like the idea of reading an end that is completely different to all the other countless turnings, and RJ makes it known it is different. To me, that would actually give more hope for mankind then anything else. That would be the ultimate victory for the good guys. After all, is it much of a victory if we as a reader know it'll be repeated forever? One of the reasons why Moridin is such a great character is because us as readers sort of understand why he did what he did. I don't agree with it and I like to think I wouldnt do it, and perhaps he did it purely for selfish reasons, however they were semi-decent reasons and understandable when looking at the whole picture. However, just imagine if that didn't have to be the case, that the cycle could end.

 

Not only that, but if Rand were to find out a way to kill the DO, like actually kill him, it would be interesting to see what Moridin would say and/or do. It would just add so much more... unpredictability to the series (not that its all that predictable now, however this would definetly throw a spanner in the works.)

 

I dont think it will happen, however I hope it does. Similar to how I dont think Elayne and/or Egwene will die, but I hope it does :P

[Tom Sawyer]

It would make sense for Rand to have some plan to end this forever instead of just continuing the endless war. Ishamael was always going on about how this time would be different and he'd win for good and now Rand's trying to think about how to kill the DO. It'd be a better end to have the Last Battle be conclusive and not just round 923,432 in a never-ending battle that doesn't resolve anything.

[Skeeve the Great]

It would make sense for Rand to have some plan to end this forever instead of just continuing the endless war. Ishamael was always going on about how this time would be different and he'd win for good and now Rand's trying to think about how to kill the DO. It'd be a better end to have the Last Battle be conclusive and not just round 923,432 in a never-ending battle that doesn't resolve anything.

 

It's exact opposite to me, actualy. For me it would be huge disappointment if the DO is finished for good and cycle breaks.

[Cyf]

I agree with Skeeve. Everything we've seen shows the world as a Wheel. Turning it linear would be, IMO, a rejection of the premise of the series. I understand why people want it -- but I disagree with it. :) It would feel really hokey if suddenly, Rand is able to break the Wheel and turn time linear.

[Rcurran]

Rand has thoughts in VoG that are fairly similar to Moridin but concludes that it's a good thing. Moridin is no fool and likes a good chat about philosophy etc and if he were to give Rand a chance to just explain the situation I'm sure everything could be resolved peacefully negating any need for fisticuffs. Don't you think?

[Aquarius]

Rand has thoughts in VoG that are fairly similar to Moridin but concludes that it's a good thing. Moridin is no fool and likes a good chat about philosophy etc and if he were to give Rand a chance to just explain the situation I'm sure everything could be resolved peacefully negating any need for fisticuffs. Don't you think?

Yes, "if he were to give Rand a chance..."... that won't happen, imho.

[Sharaman]

Rand has thoughts in VoG that are fairly similar to Moridin but concludes that it's a good thing. Moridin is no fool and likes a good chat about philosophy etc and if he were to give Rand a chance to just explain the situation I'm sure everything could be resolved peacefully negating any need for fisticuffs. Don't you think?

Yes, "if he were to give Rand a chance..."... that won't happen, imho.

Tossup who's the bigger nut-job really so the similarities are not so surprising.

[Briantium]

Anyone notice the potential Asmodean clue during Graendal's POV in the prologue? Not a direct clue, per se, and certainly not definitive as to whether she's the one who killed him or not. But at the end of her scene she reflects on how she had just "caused the death of one of the Chosen" (Arangar). It would follow that if she did, indeed, kill Asmodean, would she not have also recalled him in that train of thought? Or a hint that this wasn't the first time she was responsible for the death of a Chosen (although such a statement could also have included any rivals during the War of Power 3000 years before, so that wouldn't have necessarily been proof of her offing Asmo).

 

Again, that may or may not be a pretty thin basis for ruling Graendal out, but also consider her next thought immediately after: "The Great Lord would not be pleased". A perfect segue into comparing the death of Arangar (sacrificed to trick Rand into thinking she--Graendal--was dead) and the death of Asmo (but those were orders of the Dark One so that was okay).

[fborch]

"Caused the death of" sounds unintentional, and something probably said with a hint of regret. Asmodean was highly premeditated, and not something she would include in the same train of thought, imo.

[Duskfire]

Anyone notice the potential Asmodean clue during Graendal's POV in the prologue? Not a direct clue, per se, and certainly not definitive as to whether she's the one who killed him or not. But at the end of her scene she reflects on how she had just "caused the death of one of the Chosen" (Arangar). It would follow that if she did, indeed, kill Asmodean, would she not have also recalled him in that train of thought? Or a hint that this wasn't the first time she was responsible for the death of a Chosen (although such a statement could also have included any rivals during the War of Power 3000 years before, so that wouldn't have necessarily been proof of her offing Asmo).

 

Again, that may or may not be a pretty thin basis for ruling Graendal out, but also consider her next thought immediately after: "The Great Lord would not be pleased". A perfect segue into comparing the death of Arangar (sacrificed to trick Rand into thinking she--Graendal--was dead) and the death of Asmo (but those were orders of the Dark One so that was okay).

 

It may be a clue, but I dont think it was a big enough one to sway anyones opinion who was passionate about the subject.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Asmodean was highly premeditated, and not something she would include in the same train of thought, imo.

 

Not so much. Remember, Jordan characterized Asmodean as "Roadkill", meaning his death was an accident of timing.