Seanchan Prophecy

[Mr Ares]

Sorry to revive this again...

 

I agree with much of what Terez is saying, but - for clarification purposes - is the general idea that Ishamael sent Luthair with a 'corrupted' version? On the contrary, I interpreted Miraj's quote to mean that he viewed the pre-Luthair Seanchan Cycle to be 'corrupt' (though it very well could be the more pure version due to his and the whole fleet's expansionist imperialism).

Both the pre-Luthair Seanchan KC and the current Westlands KC differ from the official Seanchan version (which is the only one the Seanchan don't consider corrupted). One of the big differences is that only the official Seanchan version has the part about Rand kneeling to the Crystal Throne. So, either the pre-Luthair Seanchan version and the Westland version both had it removed, or the version Luthair brought with him had it added. Which do you think is more likely?

[Plato]

 

His son Luthair did have that. He conquered the whole of the Seanchan continents and overthrew the female channelers who often called themselves Aes Sedai and ruled the lands, often in conflict with each other. If you're gonna conquer the whole of a continent, and you wanna corrupt their records of their prophecies, best to do it from the start, convince the conquerers that the corrupted version is the correct one and that the version believed by the people they conquer is the corrupted one. If Moridin/Ishmael is the Shadow's Dreamer, he would be in a unique position to corrupt the prophecies, and be in a position to know that what he added or changed would come true in ways he understood, or at least in ways that he thinks he understands.

But wouldn't he also be in a unique position to know that trying to change the prophecies is pointless? I mean, in this series, there is an essence of truth to the universe, and a sense of destiny that is unyeilding... Just because someone, somewhere, corrupts the words of a prophecy, doesn't change the truth of the prophecy at all. The real prophecy is based on a thread in the pattern and you can word it however you want.

 

And since the one thing that is uncertain in terms of prophecy is the outcome of the Last Battle, and prophecy after prophecy states Rand will be there to fight it, I'm surprised the shadow does anything at all, especially since their efforts only move him further toward that final confrontation, instead of away from it.

[Thrasymachus]

I doubt that Ishy was trying to "corrupt" the KC in such a way as to break the prophecies, or make them false. Rather, I believe he would have wanted add certain things so that the original KC would have been fulfilled in ways profitable to the Shadow. For example, the KC already contained the "bind the nine moons to him" line. If Ishmael Dreamed that if the Dragon Reborn knelt to the Crystal Throne, the People of the Dragon would be destroyed, then he could simply replace the "bind the nine moons" part with a bit that says he must kneel to the Crystal Throne. The KC doesn't say how the DR will bind the nine moons, and there are always multiple ways for prophecy to be fulfilled, and multiple interpretations of what its fulfillment means. Ishy wouldn't falsify the prophecy, that's impossible, just tweak it a bit in favor of the Shadow.

 

By the way, doesn't it strike anyone else as funny that Plato and Thrasymachus are having a virtual conversation? If we could only change the subject to the nature of justice, the irony would be complete.

[Plato]

But the nature of the prophecies are vague enough to never actually lead the subjects of the prophecy into fulfilling them. That is to say, because one has heard about a prophecy about oneself, one goes out and tries to fulfill, and then fulfills it. This never happens. The one time the prophecies are really specific to the point that a character is motivated by the prophecies is when Rand goes to Tear to get Callandor, but even then, he has no control over the fact that Aeil and Mat are there at exactly the same time.

 

Just because Tuan believes that the Dragon must kneel to the Crystal Throne, she foolishly believes she must go out of her way to get him to kneel, even though the nature of the prophecy, KC or otherwise, will be fulfilled regardless of what you do. My point is that Prophecy, and destriny as a whole, gets fulfilled regardless of what you or anyone else do.

[Thrasymachus]

The prophecy followed by the Borderlanders is self-fulfilling in just that way as well. Without trying to fulfill the prophecy, they would never have gone south to Far Madding, and they would never have tested Rand.

 

Prophecy, like Dreams, do not say what will happen, only what may, and only under certain conditions. Rand Sedai says as much during the confrontation with the Borderlanders. And he would know as much as anyone concerning the nature of Prophecy and Foretelling.

[csnyder]

Hmmm...Interesting points.

As far as Foretelling (which I would assume would be entered eventually into Prophecy) goes, it seems that Foretellings just spit out of the people having them with no care for the individual - with that one Amrylin it flat-out killed her, but potentially saved the Aes Sedai (and the two Accepted Siuan and Moiraine) around her as well as the people under the Light.

Dreams, however, seem to happen within the 'sanctuary' (being that their Dreams are safe simply because they remain within their own psyche) of the Dreamer and relate to the benefit of the Dreamer and anyone they consider close to them (even though this is debatable). Honestly, we cannot be sure what makes a prophecy qualified to be a Prophecy in the Cycles; there are so many variable methods through which to conduct prophetic visions in the WoT universe that it makes it difficult to say what makes it into the field of believability much less the Karaethon/Essanik Cycle. However, when Thrasymachus states,

Rather, I believe he would have wanted add certain things so that the original KC would have been fulfilled in ways profitable to the Shadow.

I find it hard to believe that Ishamael would include new entire Prophecies without knowing the end result...Although, I do agree with Plato stating that Prophecies ultimately have their self-fulfilling nature within the WoT Universe and that maybe with Ishamael/Moridin's belief that the Shadow will win eventually he could really care less how it gets played out (even if it assists the Light in the current Age).

 

[Edited poor English.]

[Taryn]

Ishamael cannot change the prophecies so that when they come to pass they will benefit the Shadow. People, no matter how important or skilled, cannot create real prophecy, that is the Creater/Dark One/Pattern's realm of influence; however you want to argue that ;). Anyways, Ishamael would just be making a false prophecy which would not act like a true prophecy and would have no effect on making something specific happen.

 

If we assume that he did indeed alter the prophecies, we can assume that he is after the global upheaval and strife that (stupid) people would create by attempting to 'make' these false prophecies come true.

 

Yep. :)

[csnyder]

I did not mean to say that the Prophecies themselves could be controlled or manipulated. I meant to say what were the requisites for the varied prophecies (Dreaming, Wolf Dreams, Min's auras, Finnland exchanges, Foretelling, damane visions, etc.) to be included in the Karaethon or Essanik Cycles. Although I doubt that he had any ministrations with the 'alterations'/'corrupting' of the Cycles (because of the volatile nature of Prophecy manipulation), if there were some way he could benefit the Shadow with prophecies Ishamael would have to be Dreaming them (due to them being more beneficial to the viewer and that viewer's allies).

 

And, although I agree with false prophecies ultimately leading to nothing, they can possibly muddle real prophecy or cause a discontinuity within the text (I guess that sort of answers my questions to the methodology of alterations, but the older text would most likely be the more canon text thusly having superiority over the later-added prophecies).

[Maleshub]

Based on Rand's answers in the Tear door terangreal, "the east and north must be one, the south and West must be one. Both must be one" in order for him to win the Last Battle. Illian is more "South" than East in WoT geography; and Arad Doman is more "West" than "North." My hunch is that one or both kingdoms will be under Fortuona's rule before T.G. (under more lax conditions than Altara, Amadicia, and Tarabon). It might be that the King of Illian, Rand al'Thor, will actually kneel before the Empress. But the Dragon Reborn will bind the Nine Moons to serve him to win TG and seal the bore.

 

One of the possibilities I saw for this would be to have Fortuona agree with Rand that Mat would be King of Illian.

[Sheepherder]

Longtime lurker, first time poster. Thought I’d finally stop just mooching off this forum’s brilliant insights and actually make a contribution to a discussion.

 

I agree with Thrasymachus’ comment earlier that Ishy’s intent for corrupting Luthair’s copy of the KC was to force events in a manner where the prophecies would turn out most beneficial to the shadow. I think that idea needed to be expanded a little more though. The intention was not to create a prophecy of his to be fulfilled or to negate the true prophecies as some have suggested. Ishy could care less if Rand actually kneels to the crystal throne or even if he binds the nine moons to him as long as he is fighting for the shadow when does so.

 

It has been made reasonably clear that the best chance for the Dark to truly win Tarmon Gai’don and it not just end in stalemate is by having Rand turn to their side. Ishy’s main goal throughout the series has been to put as much emotional and physical stress on Rand as possible in order to make him do exactly what he was doing in the books leading up to veins of gold. Rand was trying to purge all emotion and harden himself enough to face the horrible things necessary to win Tarmon Gai’don. This was exactly what Ishy wanted because he knew that if Rand continued to distance himself from his humanity he would reach the same nihilistic conclusion Ishy himself reached, that the cycle of life was pointless and they should just let the DO win so it could all end. The corruption of the KC was one of his first steps in that plan and it almost succeeded at dragon mount.

 

Tuon’s defiance of Rand at their meeting was one of the last stresses on Rand’s psyche leading up to him almost killing his father and almost annihilating the pattern itself. It is very possible that without that line in her version of the KC, she might have given in to Rand’s tavarnness and made peace with him.

 

Adding or erasing prophecies was not Ishy’s reason for alterting Luthair’s copy of the KC. He did it so that the Seanchan would be one more burden on top of a thousand others Rand would have to face on his march to TG.

[Simpleman2012]

1. In order to make Rand kneel to the crystal throne, Rand would have to be very very desperate. He represents the hope of everyone in Randland, including Aes Sedai and Ashamen, whom will be collared when he kneels.

 

Furthermore, Rand will no longer dictate events as he too will be collared to serve Seanchan Empire. Therefore, there is no way Rand will kneel to Tuon, unless all else failed and all Randlanders are dead.

 

 

2. The Seanchans are a military might, because they have the manpower, the brains and the will to win, fully adaptable to changing circumstances.

 

Unfortunately, their might cannot win against Rand. They failed at the conquest of Illian, even with Rand using collandar alone when it would have been more effective if joined with woman, and when Rand personally went to Ebou Dou incognito, the entire command structure would have been wiped out by balefire from Rand alone. He did not do so, because he wants to bind the Seanchans to him. Even the Pattern did not allow him to do so, as he was interuppted before he could draw power to balefire the Seanchan palace.

 

 

3. Most certainly the Seanchan prophecies were corrupted from the originals. Arthur Hawkings too lived in Randland before his descendants fled to another continent to set up an empire. Therefore, the Seanchan prophecies were in corrupted form, and even the Seanchans, including Tuon, put no stock in them, often regarded them as superstitions, and trustrf omens more.

 

 

4. The conquest of White Tower by the Seanchans using Portals will end in disaster for them. Aes Sedai there are not hapless novices, but have even ter angreals to overpower them and the dammes. Worse still, with the spillover of trollocs currently invading Camlyn, the Seanchans will face pressure from every side, with many of the troop soldiers, whom were Randlanders, fleeing in every direction once fireballs, Byrne's army, and trollocs come into play.

 

 

5. Chances are, the Seanchan will be the one to face a monumental disaster of epic propotions with defeats by Randlanders, with no help from Seanchanland in a rebellion overseas. Moridin, who lost Semirhage, will actively take a part to manipulate the seanchan chief military commander, even promising him victory to his ambitions, to prevent unity and troops for the Last Battle. It may be Tuon who will be the one to kneel to Rand for help.

 

 

[Suttree]

3. Most certainly the Seanchan prophecies were corrupted from the originals. Arthur Hawkings too lived in Randland before his descendants fled to another continent to set up an empire. Therefore, the Seanchan prophecies were in corrupted form, and even the Seanchans, including Tuon, put no stock in them, often regarded them as superstitions, and trustrf omens more.

 

The Seanchan view the prophecies(Ishy tampered) that Luthair brought with him as "pure". They think the originals which existed in their land before his coming as the corrupted ones.

[csnyder]

3. Most certainly the Seanchan prophecies were corrupted from the originals. Arthur Hawkings too lived in Randland before his descendants fled to another continent to set up an empire. Therefore, the Seanchan prophecies were in corrupted form, and even the Seanchans, including Tuon, put no stock in them, often regarded them as superstitions, and trustrf omens more.

 

The Seanchan view the prophecies(Ishy tampered) that Luthair brought with him as "pure". They think the originals which existed in their land before his coming as the corrupted ones.

 

Which serves as a reason to believe, if Ishy really manipulated the Luthair KC, that the EC was formerly more pure than originally thought. And, for semantics purposes, the Prophetic text foreseen prior to the Breaking and shared between both continents during the upheavals would be the same but the translations and annexed Prophecies made post-Breaking of that same text are where the differences arise. 'Kneel' and 'bind' have ambiguous meanings and connotations with each respective word, and are likewise easily mistranslated.

[yoniy0]

You know, the Essanik Cycle has nothing to do with the Karaethon Cycle (it's much newer). I just wasn't sure from your post if you were confusing the two.

[Suttree]

You know, the Essanik Cycle has nothing to do with the Karaethon Cycle (it's much newer). I just wasn't sure from your post if you were confusing the two.

 

Thanks Yoniy0, I'm thinking that must be the case...

[csnyder]

Hmmm, perhaps. Did the Essanik Cycle come with Luthair? Or was Luthair's version applied to the Cycle by the same name (albeit from Karaethon lineage)?

[Suttree]

Hmmm, perhaps. Did the Essanik Cycle come with Luthair? Or was Luthair's version applied to the Cycle by the same name (albeit from Karaethon lineage)?

 

No the Essanik Cycle was created from Damane foretellings after Luthair. It is totally separate from the original KC that existed on both continents and the Ishy corrupted version that Luthair brought with him to Seanchan.

[Guest zooples]

I have a point on this and it may not relate but I think it will help in Rand decide to not kneel to the crystal throne and instead bind them.

 

I believe Aviendha will share her visions of the Aiel's destruction in the future which is the cause of Rand not binding the seachan to peace after TG. I believe these visions will tie into the fate of the seachan and their final side in the last battle.

[Finnssss22]

I have a point on this and it may not relate but I think it will help in Rand decide to not kneel to the crystal throne and instead bind them.

 

I believe Aviendha will share her visions of the Aiel's destruction in the future which is the cause of Rand not binding the seachan to peace after TG. I believe these visions will tie into the fate of the seachan and their final side in the last battle.

 

It's not that the Seanchan were not bound by Rand's peace pact. It was that the Aiel weren't.

[wolverinehokie]

I was bored and decided to read through some theories for the fun of it. I don't have the book with me, but didn't Avi have a possible future in which Rand kneeling to the crystal throne happened or something. Like the possible future was bad and all that, but I thought that was a part of it.

[BFG]

Long time reader, on and off lurker of several WoT sites.

 

Regarding the second doom, it seems to me that it's more likely to be the difference in culture in how channelers are treated that are the cause of the problem. Collaring channelers prevents circles being formed that prevents men and women channeling together, likely to be needed in TG. The problems I then encountered when following the thought through are two-fold. First, the Seanchan are a long way from collaring all aes sedai, let alone wise ones, kin or windfinders... Secondly it's kind of a question of tense. The fall of Hawkwings empire has already happened so he can be sure of that, additionally if the problem's to do with the difference in the prophecy, then that's already happened, however if it's to do with the collaring, than it's looking forward to something that hasn't and may never happen... On the other hand he's quite capable of lying and exaggerating... Hence the circles.

 

On topic however, I'm not sure that the differences in the prophecy is important, if it's part of prophecy it will happen, although the means and whys are unlikely to be how the Seanchan expect, if it's not part of prophecy than I struggle to see how they have the power to force him to kneel.

 

Hope it makes sense and looking forward to any replys.

[Clouded]

Long time reader, on and off lurker of several WoT sites.

 

Regarding the second doom, it seems to me that it's more likely to be the difference in culture in how channelers are treated that are the cause of the problem. Collaring channelers prevents circles being formed that prevents men and women channeling together, likely to be needed in TG. The problems I then encountered when following the thought through are two-fold. First, the Seanchan are a long way from collaring all aes sedai, let alone wise ones, kin or windfinders... Secondly it's kind of a question of tense. The fall of Hawkwings empire has already happened so he can be sure of that, additionally if the problem's to do with the difference in the prophecy, then that's already happened, however if it's to do with the collaring, than it's looking forward to something that hasn't and may never happen... On the other hand he's quite capable of lying and exaggerating... Hence the circles.

 

On topic however, I'm not sure that the differences in the prophecy is important, if it's part of prophecy it will happen, although the means and whys are unlikely to be how the Seanchan expect, if it's not part of prophecy than I struggle to see how they have the power to force him to kneel.

 

Hope it makes sense and looking forward to any replys.

 

I can't speak very well towards your first argument. I tend to agree with Lucker's theory that the 2nd Doom was the changing of the Prophecy. Your theory of the 2nd Doom being related to the Seanchan's view of channeling is interesting. The collaring and view of channelers seems to have developed over time in the Seanchan culture, and I don't know if Ishamael could claim it as intentional. Where as, the doctoring of the prophecies would seem to be a much more intentional process.

 

As to the your saying that your not sure if its important, I would disagree. I agree with your sentiment that ,regardless of tampering, the true prophecy will be fulfilled, but I think the doctoring will have a major effect. We've seen fortuona's POV before. What she believes, she believes whole-heartedly. I do not think she will give up easily on the Dragon Reborn kneeling to the Crystal Throne.

[thisguy]

If Ish had something to do with that particular revision of the prophecy (kneeling in front of the throne), it's pretty ingenious. This way, the Empire may never follow the Dragon Reborn. Imagine if the Empire was completely behind Rand? Big problem for the bad guys.

[BFG]

Long time reader, on and off lurker of several WoT sites.

 

Regarding the second doom, it seems to me that it's more likely to be the difference in culture in how channelers are treated that are the cause of the problem. Collaring channelers prevents circles being formed that prevents men and women channeling together, likely to be needed in TG. The problems I then encountered when following the thought through are two-fold. First, the Seanchan are a long way from collaring all aes sedai, let alone wise ones, kin or windfinders... Secondly it's kind of a question of tense. The fall of Hawkwings empire has already happened so he can be sure of that, additionally if the problem's to do with the difference in the prophecy, then that's already happened, however if it's to do with the collaring, than it's looking forward to something that hasn't and may never happen... On the other hand he's quite capable of lying and exaggerating... Hence the circles.

 

On topic however, I'm not sure that the differences in the prophecy is important, if it's part of prophecy it will happen, although the means and whys are unlikely to be how the Seanchan expect, if it's not part of prophecy than I struggle to see how they have the power to force him to kneel.

 

Hope it makes sense and looking forward to any replys.

 

I can't speak very well towards your first argument. I tend to agree with Lucker's theory that the 2nd Doom was the changing of the Prophecy. Your theory of the 2nd Doom being related to the Seanchan's view of channeling is interesting. The collaring and view of channelers seems to have developed over time in the Seanchan culture, and I don't know if Ishamael could claim it as intentional. Where as, the doctoring of the prophecies would seem to be a much more intentional process.

 

As to the your saying that your not sure if its important, I would disagree. I agree with your sentiment that ,regardless of tampering, the true prophecy will be fulfilled, but I think the doctoring will have a major effect. We've seen fortuona's POV before. What she believes, she believes whole-heartedly. I do not think she will give up easily on the Dragon Reborn kneeling to the Crystal Throne.

 

I haven't really had chance to think through the theory properly, having thought of it the first time as I was reading through this board.

 

As to the prophecy, I think I'd be more worried if it wasn't for the fact that Tuon married Mat, to me this binds the 9 moons to Rand, and as such fulfills that part of the prophecy. Ironically Tuon seems to think the same in reverse. (Another new idea to me, probably not to the board tho is that...) it could also be seen that the false (if it is false) prophecy has saved the world - if Tuon had sworn to Dark Rand, then Randland really would be in trouble, they at least acted as a check to some of his plans while acting in opposition, and my understanding was that it was the prophecy that she believed that helped give her the strength to resist. (sorry, as a sentance it doesn't make much sense).

[Clouded]

I haven't really had chance to think through the theory properly, having thought of it the first time as I was reading through this board.

 

As to the prophecy, I think I'd be more worried if it wasn't for the fact that Tuon married Mat, to me this binds the 9 moons to Rand, and as such fulfills that part of the prophecy. Ironically Tuon seems to think the same in reverse. (Another new idea to me, probably not to the board tho is that...) it could also be seen that the false (if it is false) prophecy has saved the world - if Tuon had sworn to Dark Rand, then Randland really would be in trouble, they at least acted as a check to some of his plans while acting in opposition, and my understanding was that it was the prophecy that she believed that helped give her the strength to resist. (sorry, as a sentance it doesn't make much sense).

 

This, I agree with. I also think Tuon's will to fight Rand's Ta'veren effects stemmed from her version of the prophecy. Also, I do not think one prophecy will be fulfilled and the other will be deemed false. Instead, since both Rand and Fortuona seem to believe they are correct, a compromise will occur that satisfies both prophecies. Something like Rand kneeling to Mat, but I hope it's not that simple.