The Seven Striped-Lass

[Krelian]

OK, a couple things have been referenced earlier and I just want to see why no one is discussing them. Also I would search for Terez's theory on Gawyn and Moiraine killing Rand, but the search option is disabled right now for the forums.

 

First, why do the Aes Sedai with Mat need horses to travel to Tar Valon? Didn't they learn traveling from Verin? Did Verin reverse her weave so they couldn't learn it? Are they not powerful enough, and if they weren't, why don't they link to use the weave? Teslyn is at least old and experienced enough to be able to copy a weave quickly.

 

Second, is it possible that the silver in Mat's ter'angreal is what makes it damaging to the gholam? I know the fact that both the gholam and the medallion have the same power melting properties, and the interaction of like traits seems like what is causing the reaction. It could be possible that the gholam is simliar to a werewolf/vampire and the silver without the power killing effect could damage it.

 

Finally, Terez, maybe once search is enabled I can find it, but if you read this, what makes you think Moiraine would balefire Rand? I'm not sure exactly how balefire works, but I thought once someone is balefired, it burns their thread out of the Pattern permanently, never to be Reborn. So even if the forces of light succeeded in this battle with the Dark One, she would guarantee the end of the world by balefiring the Dragon from the Pattern completely. That means she would be the ultimate force of evil by making sure the forces of light would fail in the next battle with the Dark One on the turning of the Wheel.

[Cyf]

I'm not sure exactly how balefire works, but I thought once someone is balefired, it burns their thread out of the Pattern permanently, never to be Reborn. So even if the forces of light succeeded in this battle with the Dark One, she would guarantee the end of the world by balefiring the Dragon from the Pattern completely. That means she would be the ultimate force of evil by making sure the forces of light would fail in the next battle with the Dark One on the turning of the Wheel.

 

I'm sure someone will come up with the exact quote, but Jordan said explicitly that Balefire does -not- burn your thread out of the Pattern for all time. Think of it like this. The thread in the Pattern is the person's life at this point, it's not their soul itself. When they're killed (or balefired), their thread disappears from the pattern. If they're just killed, the DO can grab their soul at the time of death. If they're balefired, he'd have to reach outside of time to grab their soul in the past, and he can't do that.

 

Regardless, there's a quote by RJ that says Balefire doesn't destroy the soul for all time, you will still reborn at the proper time.

[Maji]

I'm not sure exactly how balefire works, but I thought once someone is balefired, it burns their thread out of the Pattern permanently, never to be Reborn. So even if the forces of light succeeded in this battle with the Dark One, she would guarantee the end of the world by balefiring the Dragon from the Pattern completely. That means she would be the ultimate force of evil by making sure the forces of light would fail in the next battle with the Dark One on the turning of the Wheel.

 

I'm sure someone will come up with the exact quote, but Jordan said explicitly that Balefire does -not- burn your thread out of the Pattern for all time. Think of it like this. The thread in the Pattern is the person's life at this point, it's not their soul itself. When they're killed (or balefired), their thread disappears from the pattern. If they're just killed, the DO can grab their soul at the time of death. If they're balefired, he'd have to reach outside of time to grab their soul in the past, and he can't do that.

 

Regardless, there's a quote by RJ that says Balefire doesn't destroy the soul for all time, you will still reborn at the proper time.

 

I'd very much like to see this quote because I've never understood it this way.

[Cyf]

Can't find the exact quote, but from the WoT FAQ at: http://steelypips.org/wotfaq/2_nondark/2.3_one-power/2.3.07_balefire.html

 

When a person is balefired, can he be reborn?

The description of balefire leaves us one important question: does "burning one's thread from the Pattern" mean that one's soul is destroyed forever, and one can never be reborn? John Novak finally got an answer for this from RJ at a post-TPOD book-signing [Northern Virginia - 21 November, 1998]:

 

Balefire: I'm right. (This was my question) What this means is, if someone is balefired, the Dark One can't reincarnate them. But they CAN be spun back out into the wheel as normal. Balefire is NOT the eternal death of the soul. He also made a comment to the effect that even in the absence of balefire, there may be circumstances where the Dark One cannot bring someone back.

[TreeJoe]

Second, is it possible that the silver in Mat's ter'angreal is what makes it damaging to the gholam? I know the fact that both the gholam and the medallion have the same power melting properties, and the interaction of like traits seems like what is causing the reaction. It could be possible that the gholam is simliar to a werewolf/vampire and the silver without the power killing effect could damage it.

 

I've been thinking this way for a very long time. In the original battle scene, Matt specifically describes as medallion as feeling cool like normal silver, not cold signifying the One Power.

 

Now, that being said, i think the real weakness to this theory is that the Gholam was never before hurt by anything. The thing kills by touch, not from distance. They never before encountered silver jewelry on an Aes Sedai they killed? It's definitely possible, it just seems a bit unlikely.

[Maji]

Can't find the exact quote, but from the WoT FAQ at: http://steelypips.org/wotfaq/2_nondark/2.3_one-power/2.3.07_balefire.html

 

When a person is balefired, can he be reborn?

The description of balefire leaves us one important question: does "burning one's thread from the Pattern" mean that one's soul is destroyed forever, and one can never be reborn? John Novak finally got an answer for this from RJ at a post-TPOD book-signing [Northern Virginia - 21 November, 1998]:

 

Balefire: I'm right. (This was my question) What this means is, if someone is balefired, the Dark One can't reincarnate them. But they CAN be spun back out into the wheel as normal. Balefire is NOT the eternal death of the soul. He also made a comment to the effect that even in the absence of balefire, there may be circumstances where the Dark One cannot bring someone back.

 

Wow, that'll work for me. I guess I will have to rethink a few ideas I had.. xD Thanks!

[Shard]

 

Could it be possible that Elyane has been told to ignore Mat? Maybe by a Verin letter even?

 

When was the last time Elayne did anything that another Aes Sedai suggested she ought to do?

 

Liandrin, Nynaeve, Egwene, Suian, Eliada. Need I say more?

 

Yes. I don't think Elayne is going to do anything just because Verin tells her to.

 

Well Elayne had no problem following Liadrin, A BA funny enough, when Liandrin gave her little more then her word that Rand was in danger and had to go with her to save him.

[WolfKing]

On the Gholam and the medallion. Silver could certainly be an option, but I have my own little theory. We know that the medallion disrupts weaves from both men and women. Perhaps a weapon made from both parts, saidar and saiden, can take out a Gholam. I'm guessing the medallion had to have been made by both powers originally, which is why it stops both. But if a power is used invidually, it doesn't work.

 

Other than this particular item, is there a weapon out there that is made up of the combined powers? Perhaps a weapon made from both can take out the Gholam.

 

Just an idea.

[Cyf]

Something I've always been curious about.

 

Have we seen the gholam that fought Mat fight any male channelers?

 

They made three looking like men, and three looking like women. Always wondered if the gholam was only proof verses the opposite gender.

 

No real proof for this, just an odd thought because they made them gendered, and it'd be kind of interesting.

[Wolfsister]

I loved this chapter, myself. It really felt more Mat-like. I didn't think Mat in tGS was horrible, but there were obvious rough edges. It looks like Brandon really worked on his 'Mat Voice', and it shows.

 

I don't think there's necessarily a timeline lapse. The rumors are easily explained away, as mentioned. As for the weather... well, Elayne does have lots of Windfinders. Maybe she has them clearing out the clouds for some reason.

 

On another thing, I really am not liking Elayne right now. There better be a reason for her not talking to Mat other than a LoC 'Try to be above him and steal his men' or snootiness or something. Something plot-related and major.

 

In her most recent POVs, doesn't she wish to herself that Mat was there? She knows the Band is there, reference the ban on more than 100 men in the city at a time. I think she IS trying to get Mat, but someone is interfering with the messages. Especially considering that with Mat is the single most useful person for almost anything Elayne wants to do: Thom. I don't think it's a Forsaken/TG-related plot, probably just a normal person who wants to keep Elayne isolated to make her easier to manipulate and/or depose.

 

 

There is a very obvious reason that Elayne has not met with Mat. She is pregnant!

Mat seeing her pregnant may result in him either accidentally revealing that she is somehow connected to Rand or if he hears the rumours concerning Hanalon, then he might get the wrong impression that she "cheated" on Rand.

 

Up to this point only a very select few know that she was involved with Rand, and that includes Mat. She is trying to protect her babies and possibly avoid Rand hearing about her pregnancy before she is ready to reveal it. I don’t believe that she is being arrogant with Mat.

 

Her last thoughts of Mat were guilt at abandoning him in Ebou Dar when the Seanchan attached and prior to that finally made the acknowledgment of his help when he tried to rescue the wonder girls in Tear (tDR). So I don’t believe that she is being petty or arrogant by ignoring Mat. I think she is nervous and doesn’t know how he will react and therefore is being cautious.

[Fel]

When has Elayne shown any worry over her pregnancy, what people think of it, or her safety while pregnant. She dashed off to challenge the black sisters with never a worry because she knew her babies would be born safe.

 

Having her suddenly worry what Mat might think would be completely out of character for her. Much more in character would be her in her bath as was so excellently written earlier in this thread.

[csarmi]

By now the whole Andor must know that Elayne is pregnant...

[Krelian]

Can't find the exact quote, but from the WoT FAQ at: http://steelypips.org/wotfaq/2_nondark/2.3_one-power/2.3.07_balefire.html

 

When a person is balefired, can he be reborn?

The description of balefire leaves us one important question: does "burning one's thread from the Pattern" mean that one's soul is destroyed forever, and one can never be reborn? John Novak finally got an answer for this from RJ at a post-TPOD book-signing [Northern Virginia - 21 November, 1998]:

 

Balefire: I'm right. (This was my question) What this means is, if someone is balefired, the Dark One can't reincarnate them. But they CAN be spun back out into the wheel as normal. Balefire is NOT the eternal death of the soul. He also made a comment to the effect that even in the absence of balefire, there may be circumstances where the Dark One cannot bring someone back.

 

 

I know this could be something lost in the switch from Jordan to Sanderson, but I took this passage from the Force Of Light chapter in tGS to mean that someone was gone forever. On the hardcover pg. 575 after Rand has just burned the fortress, "They were gone. Burned from the Pattern. Killed. Dead forever." Then its mentioned that Balefire burned someone out of the Pattern completely. And on 576, Nynaeve responds to Rand's assertion that he did them a favor. "A favor?" Nynaeve asked. "Rand, you used balefire! They were burned out of existence!"

"As I said," Rand replied softly. "A favor. Sometimes, I wish the same blessing for myself."

 

I took this whole interaction to mean that a person balefired never comes back. Rand wishes it because he believes that his soul is beaten up and doesn't want to keep fighting the Dark One only having to suffer and die each time. If all balefire did was kill and person and remove their actions it might cause short term turmoil but not the consequences of removing someone from the Pattern forever.

[Sharaman]

Can't find the exact quote, but from the WoT FAQ at: http://steelypips.org/wotfaq/2_nondark/2.3_one-power/2.3.07_balefire.html

 

When a person is balefired, can he be reborn?

The description of balefire leaves us one important question: does "burning one's thread from the Pattern" mean that one's soul is destroyed forever, and one can never be reborn? John Novak finally got an answer for this from RJ at a post-TPOD book-signing [Northern Virginia - 21 November, 1998]:

 

Balefire: I'm right. (This was my question) What this means is, if someone is balefired, the Dark One can't reincarnate them. But they CAN be spun back out into the wheel as normal. Balefire is NOT the eternal death of the soul. He also made a comment to the effect that even in the absence of balefire, there may be circumstances where the Dark One cannot bring someone back.

 

 

I know this could be something lost in the switch from Jordan to Sanderson, but I took this passage from the Force Of Light chapter in tGS to mean that someone was gone forever. On the hardcover pg. 575 after Rand has just burned the fortress, "They were gone. Burned from the Pattern. Killed. Dead forever." Then its mentioned that Balefire burned someone out of the Pattern completely. And on 576, Nynaeve responds to Rand's assertion that he did them a favor. "A favor?" Nynaeve asked. "Rand, you used balefire! They were burned out of existence!"

"As I said," Rand replied softly. "A favor. Sometimes, I wish the same blessing for myself."

 

I took this whole interaction to mean that a person balefired never comes back. Rand wishes it because he believes that his soul is beaten up and doesn't want to keep fighting the Dark One only having to suffer and die each time. If all balefire did was kill and person and remove their actions it might cause short term turmoil but not the consequences of removing someone from the Pattern forever.

 

Rand believes it's so, perhaps. Through the series, we've seen characters assert stuff that we as omniscient readers know is wrong. Sanderson has written in several critical scenes involving balefire. Not likely that he hasn't read the notes on it and been genned up by Maria.

[Cyf]

Indeed. I mean, lots of characters believe lots of things that simply aren't so in the series. Look at all the fallacies about the Power the Aes Sedai have. Rand isn't an expert, in spite of all the knowledge he has from LTT at that moment. :) I doubt Sanderson is going to /change/ how Balefire works in the series. He's got far more respect for Jordan than that.

[Carteeg_Struve]

I was just re-reading the seven striped lass and one thing struck me:

 

She smiled at him. Her tavern, The Seven-Striped Lass, was one of the best in western Caemlyn. Ale with a robust flavor, games of dice when you wanted them, and not a rat to be seen. They probably did not want to risk running afoul of Melli. Light, but the woman could shame the whiskers off a man's cheeks without much trying.

 

"Not a rat to be seen", this is at a time when the white tower has rats because the wards are failing, and the world is infested with the DO's eyes; we're supposed to accept that a random tavern (which has a chapter named after it) is one of the only places not to have rats?? Is there something more to this tavern and its owner Melli? Or has she just got one heck of a lot of cats to help her keep the place clean?

 

 

EDIT: especially when the owner insists on Mat (a man who she knows keeps his word) promising to introduce her to Verin if she comes back.

 

 

Damn. I think you hit the nail on the head. Melli is likely a former Accepted from the tower who failed to make Aes Sedai (insert random reason here). She might be using wards to fend off the rodents over a small area - which I would guess would be stronger than wards stretched over a wide area and thus are more susceptible to failure. She may also be using the power to keep her ingredients fresher - making the quality better. If word is coming out about Egwene wanting "any woman who can channel" to be able to join, she might want to talk to an Aes Sedai to see if she could have a second chance. The Seven-Striped Lass may be referring to herself, which would certainly strengthen the reason for why the chapter was named as such.

[Bastor]

Elayne is still in such a position that if contacts with Thom and Mat or anyone from the band for that matter might lead to them being in more danger than normal...(normal being the gholam and DFs trying to kill Mat). The sore losers (the nobles whos "nominee" for the Lion Throne lost) might see Mat as a messenger, friend of the throne or just as someone who should be eliminated.

 

OR Demandred is playing around and is actually holding Elayne hostage...wut? xD

 

The whole rat discovery is very interesting. So we either have some Aes Sedai staying in that inn or the innkeeper (more likely) can touch the true source. Interesting.

[Crossroad]

I bet he keeps us waiting on what happens next for a couple of chapters to get everything else heading for the same time line. BS did that in "The Way of Kings" switching to another character. I only hung in there because I was listening to the audio and couldn't skip to the next chapter that explain what happen next. Its probably one of my pet hate about these books. "Switching at crucial parts of a story"

 

Oh well I'll just have to wait and put up with this style of writing until JB's or Simon R Greens next books.

[Krelian]

Indeed. I mean, lots of characters believe lots of things that simply aren't so in the series. Look at all the fallacies about the Power the Aes Sedai have. Rand isn't an expert, in spite of all the knowledge he has from LTT at that moment. :) I doubt Sanderson is going to /change/ how Balefire works in the series. He's got far more respect for Jordan than that.

 

Ok, I knew something was off. I went and looked in the White source book The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time, and found a passage about balefire. This book was penned by Robert Jordan and Teresa Patterson. It says on page 43, "Anything destroyed this way (balefire) actually ceased to exist before the moment of destruction, leaving only a memory of deeds no longer done and souls forever erased from the Pattern.

So I'm pretty sure this book was created from RJ's own notes. We have two different versions of what he says happens to souls. What someone said he said at a book signing or event, and something written in a source book written from his own notes. I guess its up to us as readers to decide which to believe.

[Ashaman Kovan]

Indeed. I mean, lots of characters believe lots of things that simply aren't so in the series. Look at all the fallacies about the Power the Aes Sedai have. Rand isn't an expert, in spite of all the knowledge he has from LTT at that moment. :) I doubt Sanderson is going to /change/ how Balefire works in the series. He's got far more respect for Jordan than that.

 

Ok, I knew something was off. I went and looked in the White source book The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time, and found a passage about balefire. This book was penned by Robert Jordan and Teresa Patterson. It says on page 43, "Anything destroyed this way (balefire) actually ceased to exist before the moment of destruction, leaving only a memory of deeds no longer done and souls forever erased from the Pattern.

So I'm pretty sure this book was created from RJ's own notes. We have two different versions of what he says happens to souls. What someone said he said at a book signing or event, and something written in a source book written from his own notes. I guess its up to us as readers to decide which to believe.

 

The thing though about the BwB is that it's supposed to have been written from the PoV of a scholar or maybe a Brown who is susceptible to mistakes and such. IIRC

[Duskfire]

Indeed. I mean, lots of characters believe lots of things that simply aren't so in the series. Look at all the fallacies about the Power the Aes Sedai have. Rand isn't an expert, in spite of all the knowledge he has from LTT at that moment. :) I doubt Sanderson is going to /change/ how Balefire works in the series. He's got far more respect for Jordan than that.

 

Ok, I knew something was off. I went and looked in the White source book The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time, and found a passage about balefire. This book was penned by Robert Jordan and Teresa Patterson. It says on page 43, "Anything destroyed this way (balefire) actually ceased to exist before the moment of destruction, leaving only a memory of deeds no longer done and souls forever erased from the Pattern.

So I'm pretty sure this book was created from RJ's own notes. We have two different versions of what he says happens to souls. What someone said he said at a book signing or event, and something written in a source book written from his own notes. I guess its up to us as readers to decide which to believe.

 

Not neccessarily. The Guide was written from the pov of a historian who had decent source material. While the majority of the book is written from his own notes, alot of it is written without the aid of them to create inconsistencies with other sources of information. Balefire is not the only inconsistency we have from the Guide.

[Sid]

ooh, synchronized posting.

I was disappointed with the BWB for many reasons including this one. I really can't wait for the Encyclopedia, just for some definitive answers.

[wvlr2]

Did anyone else here notice Thom & Mat talking about Verin.

********************************************

"Best that one stays away," Thom said. "I don't trust her. There's something off about that one."

 

"She's Aes Sedai," Mat said. "There's something off about them all—like dice where the pips don't add up—but for an Aes Sedai, I kind of like Verin. And I'm a good judge of character, you know that."

 

Thom raised an eyebrow. Mat scowled back.

********************************************

 

Is that a hint that something more might be coming out about Verin?

 

Which one do you think is the better judge of character - Thom or Mat? Me - I say Thom.

 

On a side note- Egwene only did a mirror test of Verin to see if she was dead, right? So is it possable to fake that with the Power?

 

I would be very suprised if verin was still alive, but her comments in tGS were very strange and these comments from Thom in this chapter seem very ominous.

 

Maybe that is why she did not keep Thomas with her - is she supposidly dies & he did not go all death rage then it would have been a clue that she was not really dead.

 

 

What do you think?

[NetSlider]

ooh, synchronized posting.

I was disappointed with the BWB for many reasons including this one. I really can't wait for the Encyclopedia, just for some definitive answers.

 

Second this motion!

[NetSlider]

Did anyone else here notice Thom & Mat talking about Verin.

********************************************

"Best that one stays away," Thom said. "I don't trust her. There's something off about that one."

 

"She's Aes Sedai," Mat said. "There's something off about them all—like dice where the pips don't add up—but for an Aes Sedai, I kind of like Verin. And I'm a good judge of character, you know that."

 

Thom raised an eyebrow. Mat scowled back.

********************************************

 

Is that a hint that something more might be coming out about Verin?

 

Which one do you think is the better judge of character - Thom or Mat? Me - I say Thom.

 

On a side note- Egwene only did a mirror test of Verin to see if she was dead, right? So is it possable to fake that with the Power?

 

I would be very suprised if verin was still alive, but her comments in tGS were very strange and these comments from Thom in this chapter seem very ominous.

 

Maybe that is why she did not keep Thomas with her - is she supposidly dies & he did not go all death rage then it would have been a clue that she was not really dead.

 

 

What do you think?

 

 

Mat judgment right on the money - in Mat's terms that is. When and if he finds out about Verin being black I can see already "What happened to my bloody luck?" freak out going on. - *sigh* Classic Mat

 

As far as Verin still living - can't really see that happening. If it does happen than I'll be upset as hell - CAN WE GET SOME DEAD PEOPLE TO STAY DEAD IN THIS FREAKING SERIES???!!!