The Seven Striped-Lass

[AzureSpecter]

If I may post a few of my thoughts about this discussion. I'm not too familiar with this time-lapse situation, so correct me if needed.

 

Although we all know that Elayne is arrogantly annoying, she probably has a good reason for ignoring Mat. Possibly, she already knows the Gholam is in Caemlyn and wants to suck her blood. She could very well be operating outside of Caemlyn to avoid assassins. Even if it's not the gholam, she's still a high target for forsaken, black ajah, and other houses of Andor. The whole world knows she was just crowned queen, so it would be wise for her to try and stay hidden somewhat.

 

As for the blood in the tent. If you read it correctly it says: "He (Mat) stepped into the tent. There, he froze. That scent... Blood." -- What this states is that Mat was inside the tent. Mat doesn't fancy himself with big Lordly possessions, so we can figure that he can see his entire tent's interior. The script says that he smells blood, not that he see's it. I don't think anybody is dead in his tent. Rather, I think Mat is about to have another gholam encounter.

 

Ok, this is the timeline stuff. I don't really have an idea what's in the letter, but I do think that the whole "open the letter after 10 days" restriction thing is another loophole in the Black Ajah oaths. So if Verin survives the ordeal in the white tower, which takes place 10 days from when Mat was given the letter, Verin can do whats required by herself because she will be free from the oath.

[alexander234]

Yes. A definite teaser. I should have waited a bit longer til release date before reading the chapter. I guess I will have to devour "The Way of Kings" in the mean time.

[Random Man]

Peter explained this a bit further on Theoryland, but he wouldn't tell us what the bit was that was going to be fixed in TGS, so I'm guessing it must be spoilerish, or he'd have just said.

My guess is the part from Chapter 20 had to be changed where Mat thought of the overcast sky and that he hadn't seen the sun since Tuon left him. That's the only time-related comment I remember. Either that or it's Rand seeing Mat and Thom in Caemlyn on horseback.

[johnnyrocket]

A few points.

3) Did someone notice that if the Aes Sedai party sets out for Tar Valon right now (about 20-25 days before the white tower reunification), Egwene is to meet Seta and Bethamin very soon? That might be an interesting 'reunion'.

 

I can't wait for a Mat Egwene reunion, especially once everyone learns Tuon is the Empress.

 

"Oh, really the Seanchan did attack the tower then? Slaughtered and captured a bunch of Aes Sedai? Why, yes I am married to the Seanchan Empress... Yeah, I guess she probably did order that attack, she has sort of an irrational hatred of Aes Sedai so... Sorry about that. I don't really want you to ever meet her, I don't think it would end well."

"Oh well make sure to thank her for me. It was really nice having all those memories of being leashed and tortured by Renna brought up again, especially while watching Sisters murdered all around me."

"Yeah, and about Renna.... I kind of had her killed...."

 

Mat meeting up with all the others will be great, he has a lot of explaining to do.

[TheAngryDruid]

With the timeline, I really hope they didn't mess it up that badly... I don't remeber it being 30 days between Mat meeting Verin and her dying, because if it was only a few days, that wouldn't be an issue in the timeline. Plus, VoG took place, as Egwenes epilouge shows, a few days after the end of the seige anyways, so probably the timeline is accurate, Mat is just catching up in chapter 8 to TGS

 

I don't see what's wrong with the timeline. Mat promised Verin to either wait for 10 days and do what the letter told him or to wait 30 days in case he never opened it. So my guess would be that this chapter happens on the tenth day, because if it happened any sooner Mat would think postpone thinking about it and if it was any later he would have already made his decision. And ten days since Verin visited Egwene sounds reasonable for rumors of the Seanchan battle to get to Caemlyn and for the clouds to break up to some extend.

 

I think you've hit it on the head with the 10th day, as this is the only day that Mat has a decision to make.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but his choices were:

 

1) Wait 10 days and open the letter OR

2) Wait 30 days and don't.

 

Though I'll admit, "Or you can open the letter after ten days" can be taken two ways: open in on the 10th day, or on or after 10 days. But considering this quote from Verin "Instructions," Verin said, "Which you will follow ON the tenth day after I leave you in Caemlyn" (tGS, p. 557), I think the above interpretation is more likely correct.

 

This would jibe with Mat having had the letter a short time (one week) and still having more than two weeks (21 days) before he is free.

 

However, the problem that I see with your quote is that if it is only 10 days since Mat arrived in Caemlyn, then Verin hasn't died yet, or visited Egwene. Nor has there been a battle at Tar Valon. Thus, no source for the rumours. Nor has Rand visited Dragonmount. (If Brandon's earlier quotes on the timing of Verin's death and the timeline are to be believed).

 

Perhaps those issues will be explained in the Prologe or the first seven chapters, but I think that Brandon's explanation is a bit weak. Those rumours were too near the truth, and what could possibly be the source of flying creatures attacking the WT when none had, and there was no battle. Or rumours of re-unification with a 50,000 man army still camped outside? That just seems silly. And the answer far too flippant.

[AzureSpecter]

However, the problem that I see with your quote is that if it is only 10 days since Mat arrived in Caemlyn, then Verin hasn't died yet, or visited Egwene. Nor has there been a battle at Tar Valon. Thus, no source for the rumours. Nor has Rand visited Dragonmount. (If Brandon's earlier quotes on the timing of Verin's death and the timeline are to be believed).

 

I havent found any quotes from Brandon about this period of the timeline. Can someone link the page to me, or briefly explain what he said about the last events in tGS? When I read it, I assumed that the events at the white tower took place about 10 days from when Verin gave the letter to Mat, which coincides with my theory about the 10 day letter restriction being a loophole in the BA oaths

[TheAngryDruid]

However, the problem that I see with your quote is that if it is only 10 days since Mat arrived in Caemlyn, then Verin hasn't died yet, or visited Egwene. Nor has there been a battle at Tar Valon. Thus, no source for the rumours. Nor has Rand visited Dragonmount. (If Brandon's earlier quotes on the timing of Verin's death and the timeline are to be believed).

 

I havent found any quotes from Brandon about this period of the timeline. Can someone link the page to me, or briefly explain what he said about the last events in tGS? When I read it, I assumed that the events at the white tower took place about 10 days from when Verin gave the letter to Mat, which coincides with my theory about the 10 day letter restriction being a loophole in the BA oaths

 

Well, someone in the thread said something about Brandon saying Verin taking the poison 20 days after she talked with Mat.

 

And Cooper's chronology page puts it like this:

 

a) Day 773: Verin gives Mat the letter & takes him to Caemlyn

b) Day 800: Verin visits with Egwene, reveals herself as BA, and takes the poison. Seanchan attack.

c) Day 801: Egwene is raised Amyrlin.

d) Day 803: Rand visits Dragonmount.

 

http://www.stevenac.net/wot/tl1000.htm#book12

 

Now, Cooper's Chronology page isn't official. But if it is correct (or near so), you see the problem. From Mat's POV (2 weeks to freedom = 20/21 days), then he could only have been in Caemlyn 10 days at the most. Which would put him at 783 (maybe 784). Thus, the attack on the WT can't be the source of the rumours, nor Rand's visit to DM the reason the clouds have broken, because they haven't happened yet.

 

If the timeline above is correct (which may be a big assumption), then I don't see how the 10 day theory can be accurate, because Verin dies more than 10 days after visiting with Mat. Hence, if he opened the letter, she would have violated her oaths. My conclusion = there is nothing in the letter that betrays her DO oaths or reveals herself as BA. (Maybe if she convinced herself that he wouldn't open the letter after 10 days?)

[Jong]

 

Could it be possible that Elyane has been told to ignore Mat? Maybe by a Verin letter even?

 

When was the last time Elayne did anything that another Aes Sedai suggested she ought to do?

[Shard]

 

Could it be possible that Elyane has been told to ignore Mat? Maybe by a Verin letter even?

 

When was the last time Elayne did anything that another Aes Sedai suggested she ought to do?

 

Liandrin, Nynaeve, Egwene, Suian, Eliada. Need I say more?

[Rufae]

I think the timeline could be ok. I believe Verin's promise (wihtout book at hand) was for Mat to wait IN Camelyn for 10 days or 30 days. What if it took Mat 2 weeks to reach Camelyn? The Band could not be dropped on the front doorstep of Camelyn without Elayne (and the rest of the city) thinking it is some invasion. So likely they were dropped a distance away from the city and marched the rest of the way.

 

So say 2 weeks to arrive at Camelyn and then 2 weeks of waiting in the city would jive with the 30 day interval for Verin.

 

As for the rumors, well they are just rumors.

[b3arz3rg3r]

I think the timeline could be ok. I believe Verin's promise (wihtout book at hand) was for Mat to wait IN Camelyn for 10 days or 30 days. What if it took Mat 2 weeks to reach Camelyn? The Band could not be dropped on the front doorstep of Camelyn without Elayne (and the rest of the city) thinking it is some invasion. So likely they were dropped a distance away from the city and marched the rest of the way.

 

So say 2 weeks to arrive at Camelyn and then 2 weeks of waiting in the city would jive with the 30 day interval for Verin.

 

As for the rumors, well they are just rumors.

 

I don't see a reason why she couldn't have dropped Mat right on Caemlyn's doorstep. That is what she promised as I recall.

[FarShainMael]

A thought occurred. If the Pattern is messing up time, what might this mean for Elayne's pregnancy? Is the reason she's not talking to Mat her being in labour?

[Slick Mongoose]

I really hope the DO isn't messing with time. That sort of thing would be so ridiculously difficult to do well. I prefer my time linear, thanks.

[metalisticpain]

I could be wrong, but why is everyone assuming it isn't close to 30 days? Why does everything think its less then 10 days for matt.

 

Matt's thinking of the oath is that if he opens it BEFORE 30 days, he has to do what it says. So it could be that he's almost at the end of 30day's.

[Slick Mongoose]

Mat's thoughts from the chapter:

 

All he had to do was wait a few weeks, and he would be free. He could wait that long. Really, he could.

[wvlr2]

I could be wrong, but why is everyone assuming it isn't close to 30 days? Why does everything think its less then 10 days for matt.

 

Matt's thinking of the oath is that if he opens it BEFORE 30 days, he has to do what it says. So it could be that he's almost at the end of 30day's.

 

There was a quote posted earlier from BS on tour that seemed to indicate that there had been about 30 days since we last saw Mat. You should only have to go back about 2 or three pages to see it.

 

Is there someone that could post a link or a couple links to show the assorted timeline interpretations/projections for the last few books. I am surely getting confused myself on a few things and it would be nice to get some kind of handle on it before the next book.

 

I myself thought Elayne and Rand had their "fling" before Egwene & her AS left Salidar. They spent quite a while tromping slowly across the land before she "traveled" them to TV. then they seemed to spend a few months in Seige. After that Egwene was captive for a couple months. So how far along is she?

[perrin51]

I think that people are blowing the timeline thing way out of proportion. I don't believe that there is any way, save an AS Traveling, for any eye witness reports from Tar Valon, to make it to Caemlyn within 30 days. I know that they say that rumors can outrun the wind but there are limits. Looking at the map, Tar Valon pretty far from Caemlyn. Mat’s POV mentions that the ToG is several hundred miles north of Caemlyn, but south of Tar Valon. The fastest way that rumor could travel would be by ship, sans Traveling. I believe it took about 2-3 weeks for Mat to make it from Tar Valon to Aringill and another 1-2 week to make it to Caemlyn, while carrying Elayne’s letter.

 

The point that BWS was making about rumor may seem weak on the surface, but it may be more than plausible. Consider the diverse group of people who have congregated in Caemlyn. There are merchants and refugees from nearly every country in Randland. Anyone from Ebou Dar, Tarabon or Amadicia will know about raken and to’raken. Those from the later will know or have heard, from near first hand, about the attack on the Fortress of Light. Specifically the use that raken and to’raken played. By this time nearly everyone will know about the Seanchan attitude toward AS. There are sure to be rumors of several Seanchan battles with AS and Ashaman. Add to this, the fact that many people may wish the AS to reunify and fix what is wrong with the world. With all of this you have many, if not all of the pieces that you need to create the rumors Mat mentions.

 

Now if you put all of this together, it is not terribly difficult to make a rumor that predicts the future. (We only know that these rumors mirror the truth through the time machine of reading the series.) Throughout the series we have examples of how rumor twists and distorts the facts. This is a common theme of the series. I find it somewhat humorous and ironic, that through convoluted and disparate means, the truth is on the streets before it happens.

[subwoofer]

Well, going back to the chapter itself, there are many ways to interpret exactly where we are at in terms of the time line. I think it is a moot point because Mat will open the letter and find a way to act in a timely fashion. The Pattern, combined with Mat's tav'erneness will make it happen. The only difference I see being the amount of Aes Sedai involvement at the end of the day.

 

What tickles me is what is the cause of the dice rolling in Mat's head this goabout?

 

Woof™.

[subwoofer]

I didn't mind Mat in tGS, I quite liked him actually, but for some reason there was something I didn't like about him here. It seems as if Brandon was trying too hard with him, and I didn't think Thom's knife throw was very, erm, what's the word? Suitable. It just didn't seem right. Complaints aside, WHAT A CLIFFHANGER! I'm all worried about who it is; Olver keeps on coming back to my mind, as does Lopin. I'd of course be more worried about Olver, but I wouldn't really wish Lopin's body sucked dry of blood either...

 

Feels the same to me. Thom was always a fast study and knows what is going on around him so I don't see him doing something then thinking about it after. I am sure that at some point Thom would have noticed Mat in the tavern.

 

Dunno if anybody is dead, I am thinking if the gholam was in Mat's tent, there would be some dead bodies around camp to begin with.

 

Woof™.

[b3arz3rg3r]

I think that people are blowing the timeline thing way out of proportion. I don't believe that there is any way, save an AS Traveling, for any eye witness reports from Tar Valon, to make it to Caemlyn within 30 days. I know that they say that rumors can outrun the wind but there are limits. Looking at the map, Tar Valon pretty far from Caemlyn. Mat’s POV mentions that the ToG is several hundred miles north of Caemlyn, but south of Tar Valon. The fastest way that rumor could travel would be by ship, sans Traveling. I believe it took about 2-3 weeks for Mat to make it from Tar Valon to Aringill and another 1-2 week to make it to Caemlyn, while carrying Elayne’s letter.

 

All it needs is an Aes Sedai travelling to Caemlyn to open her mouth or Egwene conferring with Elayne in Tel'aran'rhiod to start things. Afterall if the Seanchan struck at Tar Valon nothing is preventing them to strike at Andor and Caemlyn. Elayne would obviously have to react to such a threat by at the very least alerting the Houses that the Seanchan might soon operate in andoran skies.

Bits of a conversation overheard by a servant or someone else and the rumor is born. The rumor needn't even get there in person. Tar Valon is without a doubt the city with the most spies in the world because the Tower is there and everyone wants to know what is going on. Most of all all those Aes Sedai who sat on the fences during the struggle. I'd say a messenger bird would need less than ten days to make it there.

[perrin51]

I think that people are blowing the timeline thing way out of proportion. I don't believe that there is any way, save an AS Traveling, for any eye witness reports from Tar Valon, to make it to Caemlyn within 30 days. I know that they say that rumors can outrun the wind but there are limits. Looking at the map, Tar Valon pretty far from Caemlyn. Mat’s POV mentions that the ToG is several hundred miles north of Caemlyn, but south of Tar Valon. The fastest way that rumor could travel would be by ship, sans Traveling. I believe it took about 2-3 weeks for Mat to make it from Tar Valon to Aringill and another 1-2 week to make it to Caemlyn, while carrying Elayne’s letter.

 

All it needs is an Aes Sedai travelling to Caemlyn to open her mouth or Egwene conferring with Elayne in Tel'aran'rhiod to start things. Afterall if the Seanchan struck at Tar Valon nothing is preventing them to strike at Andor and Caemlyn. Elayne would obviously have to react to such a threat by at the very least alerting the Houses that the Seanchan might soon operate in andoran skies.

Bits of a conversation overheard by a servant or someone else and the rumor is born. The rumor needn't even get there in person. Tar Valon is without a doubt the city with the most spies in the world because the Tower is there and everyone wants to know what is going on. Most of all all those Aes Sedai who sat on the fences during the struggle. I'd say a messenger bird would need less than ten days to make it there.

 

You are right. I didn't think about birds. However with all of the spy hunt business in the Palace during the siege I think that any conversation with Elayne would be secure. They are very careful of betrayal now.

 

Why would Egwene fear the Seanchan might use raken to attack Caemlyn or any other city? Egwene has developed a small sense of strategy. I am sure that she can (or an advisor can) deduce that this was a raid with two purposes. 1) To strike at the seat of AS power creating as much damage as possible. 2) Capture as many marath’damane as possible.

 

With those two points in mind I feel that the raid was at best, a marginal success. The Tower was manned with a veritable skeleton crew of AS. If Egwene had not intervened, the raid would have been a much larger success. The Seanchan elemant of surprise was complete and the AS initially reacted as the Seanchan expected. They would have killed or captured most of the AS if Egwene had not acted. Once Egwene formed a cohesive resistance and losses started to mount, the Seanchan broke off the attack. I am sure that she has some idea of the cost of that attack to the Seanchan. She has been seeing to the provisioning of an army for a while.

 

From what we have seen so far the Seanchan do not know of any other concentration of channelers. So I find it a stretch to think that a servant is the source of these rumors. Not impossible, but a stretch.

[b3arz3rg3r]

I think that people are blowing the timeline thing way out of proportion. I don't believe that there is any way, save an AS Traveling, for any eye witness reports from Tar Valon, to make it to Caemlyn within 30 days. I know that they say that rumors can outrun the wind but there are limits. Looking at the map, Tar Valon pretty far from Caemlyn. Mat’s POV mentions that the ToG is several hundred miles north of Caemlyn, but south of Tar Valon. The fastest way that rumor could travel would be by ship, sans Traveling. I believe it took about 2-3 weeks for Mat to make it from Tar Valon to Aringill and another 1-2 week to make it to Caemlyn, while carrying Elayne’s letter.

 

All it needs is an Aes Sedai travelling to Caemlyn to open her mouth or Egwene conferring with Elayne in Tel'aran'rhiod to start things. Afterall if the Seanchan struck at Tar Valon nothing is preventing them to strike at Andor and Caemlyn. Elayne would obviously have to react to such a threat by at the very least alerting the Houses that the Seanchan might soon operate in andoran skies.

Bits of a conversation overheard by a servant or someone else and the rumor is born. The rumor needn't even get there in person. Tar Valon is without a doubt the city with the most spies in the world because the Tower is there and everyone wants to know what is going on. Most of all all those Aes Sedai who sat on the fences during the struggle. I'd say a messenger bird would need less than ten days to make it there.

 

You are right. I didn't think about birds. However with all of the spy hunt business in the Palace during the siege I think that any conversation with Elayne would be secure. They are very careful of betrayal now.

 

 

I'm not talking about someone spying on Elayne or on any of the Aes Sedai in the city. I'm talking about anyone who might overhear her or anyone she might talk about it.

 

Why would Egwene fear the Seanchan might use raken to attack Caemlyn or any other city? Egwene has developed a small sense of strategy. I am sure that she can (or an advisor can) deduce that this was a raid with two purposes. 1) To strike at the seat of AS power creating as much damage as possible. 2) Capture as many marath’damane as possible.

 

With those two points in mind I feel that the raid was at best, a marginal success. The Tower was manned with a veritable skeleton crew of AS. If Egwene had not intervened, the raid would have been a much larger success. The Seanchan elemant of surprise was complete and the AS initially reacted as the Seanchan expected. They would have killed or captured most of the AS if Egwene had not acted. Once Egwene formed a cohesive resistance and losses started to mount, the Seanchan broke off the attack. I am sure that she has some idea of the cost of that attack to the Seanchan. She has been seeing to the provisioning of an army for a while.

 

So because 50 damane/suldam pairs only managed to abduct 40 Aes Sedai and kill a number more you think Egwene would assume that the Seanchan would never try something like this again somewhere else and not warn others about it?

 

Oh and the Seanchan attack was a huge success. They captured the knowledge of Travelling. That's worth atleast a 100 damane for them.

 

From what we have seen so far the Seanchan do not know of any other concentration of channelers. So I find it a stretch to think that a servant is the source of these rumors. Not impossible, but a stretch.

 

Why would the Seanchan only target concentration of channelers? They could use their to'raken to bombard armies and palaces just as well. A dozen damane over the palace in Caemlyn in the dead of the night could probably destroy most of it in the minutes before anyone figured out what to do.

[jemron]

Maybe we're forgetting something:

 

The agreement with Verin was that he would STAY in Caemlyn for 30 days. Not that he would wait 30 days after he got the letter. She would open a gateway for him IF he agreed to do what the letter said, but he didn't. So, I assume he had to get to Caemlyn on his own AND THEN wait 30 days. Right? Am I missing something? Has everyone definitely verified that the time is off, or are people making assumptions based little to no fact?

[kilika]

First off, I loved it.........

 

Mat seemed 'truer' in this sneak peak of a chapter.

You have to remember that he's not going to be the same Mat as before, since his marriage.

But like many of you have noted; the whole 'checking out' all the women and being way too super confident about his winning smile was a bit much.

 

Some miss-placed words and phrases caught me off guard and reminded me that this is, no matter how much I love him, Brandon Sanderson writing and not Robert Jordan.

 

The main thing that catches my eye is this sentence;

 

'Caemlyn was fuller than a lionfish at a shipwreck these days, practically bursting at the seams"

 

That should be in a Suian Sanche scene!

Not in a Mat scene!

 

Harriet should have picked up on that.

Totally took me right out the story as it doesn't fit Mat's character.

Ruined the chapter for me.

 

What do you all think?

[Rufae]

That should be in a Suian Sanche scene!

Not in a Mat scene!

 

 

Yeah, saw that too. I instantly thought Siuan Sanche, not Mat. When has Mat been near a lionfish? Maybe in one of his past memories?