Jump to content

DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

The Life and Times of An Aes Sedai


Luckers
 Share

Recommended Posts

Oh I do, I don't dislike Egwene, though she has annoyed me at times. I agree she was manipulated there. I am not one who castigated her for that, but I was merely making the point that I think the pattern was rather hoping to avoid another Latra Posae and thus made sure the Amyrlin was from Rand's village.

 

Yeah the whole LPD thing is interesting. I've always thought the pattern may have forced Latra to oppose him that first time so Saidar wouldn't be tainted along with Saidin and the world would have a chance to get out of the breaking.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 196
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Heh, see I am on the other side of fence on two issues. First, I think the DO cannot affect the OP, only one or the other half of it, it's mentioned over and over and over how much more powerful it is when they are used together. So I don't think he could have tainted both.

 

I also don't think the Pattern has that much control over a person. It put Egwene in Rand's village, aimed her at being Amyrlin, and loosed the arrow. She could have easily become a Wise One, and hell, if Siuan was still the Amyrlin and Egwene was content with how she was dealing with Rand, we would be seeing Egwene the Wise One. I am not into the idea that the Pattern has so much control over a person it can make them, like Latra, do one thing or the other specifically. No, much more likely is that she and LTT had a contentious relationship for years, wars do not make for the best mates when there is a question of dominance. We don't know enough, but all the other infighting and corruption that existed must led to a split much like the present day Tower experienced except as there were no permanent Ajahs, it split down gender lines.

 

Nobody expected the Taint, they just thought the plan had a chance, however small, of ripping open the prison altogether.

 

If the Pattern can make LPD outright reject something, then we are just watching a pre scripted play, might as well go read Polgara the Sorceress.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't know that I would say the pattern doesn't have that much control someone. I'm on tSR on my re-read, and Mat, the most stubborn person of all the books, has the least control over what he does. As much as he wants to constantly leave Tear and Rand, he simply can't, and he knows it. There is a pre-determined path, and absolute and utter failure lies on the other side should a major player deviate I'm sure, assuming for the main characters that that is even possible.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Heh, see I am on the other side of fence on two issues. First, I think the DO cannot affect the OP, only one or the other half of it, it's mentioned over and over and over how much more powerful it is when they are used together. So I don't think he could have tainted both.

 

We know per RJ that the plan was flawed and Saidar would have been tainted as well had the women been involved.

 

RJ

The result of this was that Lews Therin carried out his plan with only male Aes Sedai, so there were only male Aes Sedai channeling there, which was a lucky thing, because if there’d been women as well, then both saidin and saidar would have been tainted.

 

As for the rest I could certainly see the pattern intervening in this instance. If Saidar had been tainted the world would not have survived the breaking.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

LTT's Taveren nature probably caused the rift with Latra, Does the pattern bend to the will of the Taveren? or does the proximity of the Taveren make the pattern follow the course it is meant to. Taveren are spun out to correct problems afterall...

 

Otherwise Rand's nature when he was dark Rand would have caused Tuon to agree to anything, Egwene would not have been strong enough to resist his pull either...

 

It isnt an "I win" card...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Tuon barely resisted. The main problem wasn't LPD, for LTT, it was that EVERY woman refused to go with him. That's a pretty huge Taveren effect. That's why I tend to think it was more infighting, maybe she was affected that way, but every female Aes Sedai of any strength?

 

Dark Rand never went to Egwene, and by the way, Egwene did exactly what he wanted her to, so it did work. Nobody else could even do more than breathe, he never could have been held in the Tower as an example as Egwene was the only one who seemed to have hold of herself, so his Taveren nature did exactly what he wanted, but I don't think the manipulation worked because of it, I think that worked because of Rand and Egwene and the insane nature of his proposal (coming from her perspective).

 

The reason why people were very strongly opposed to her portrayal there is she didn't say, "umm, why do you think that is a good idea? Maybe you want to peruse our hugest library on the planet, or want us to before you make that decision final". How she reacted though was exactly in line with her portrayal through the entirety of the books. I don't want to turn this into an Egwene discussion though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It would have to be reactive, not proactive, since it is a completely foreign substance.

 

Assuming using both men and women created a perfect seal (which wasnt re-drilled) AND tainted both halves, that would create a interesting course for the ages...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

to be honest I think that for a true sealing they need a true union of the one power. not Saidar and Saidin flows woven together but really acting truly as one source, the true source. Afterall that is what was meant to have created the prison in the first place. I think that is what Callandor and the Dragon are meant for. If the Dark One could taint them both truly united then he could have tainted them at the moment of creation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...

So, along the lines of people saying that the Yellow Ajah should be setting up clinics, because people could not distrust Aes Sedai if the Aes Sedai were doing good, i found this quote in TFOH regarding healers:

A woman has to be careful, dealing in remedies in Amadicia. Cure too many, or too well, somebody whispers Aes Sedai, and the next thing you know your house is burning down. Or worse.

So not only does the distrust extend past healing, the distrust is thick enough that if you are good at healing you'll be killed for being Aes Sedai. This could pose a serious problem for Aes Sedai, who might face a situation where a mob starts breaking down doors and the Aes Sedai have to either give in (bad) or blast their way out (very bad).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So, along the lines of people saying that the Yellow Ajah should be setting up clinics, because people could not distrust Aes Sedai if the Aes Sedai were doing good, i found this quote in TFOH regarding healers:

A woman has to be careful, dealing in remedies in Amadicia. Cure too many, or too well, somebody whispers Aes Sedai, and the next thing you know your house is burning down. Or worse.

So not only does the distrust extend past healing, the distrust is thick enough that if you are good at healing you'll be killed for being Aes Sedai. This could pose a serious problem for Aes Sedai, who might face a situation where a mob starts breaking down doors and the Aes Sedai have to either give in (bad) or blast their way out (very bad).

 

The example you cite is about Amadicia--homeland of the Whitecloaks. The only other place where the fear and dislike comes as close is Tear. Barring those two the Aes Sedai would face no more issues than they do in being open about who they are when they stay at inns--which is not to say nothing. No doubt fear of the Aes Sedai would present problems--but nothing the Aes Sedai aren't equiped to deal with. And, as time passes and their efforts engender good will and respect that would only decline (provided they didn't mistep badly, of course. Always a possibility).

 

If you want to see the sort of situation they should be working towards, look what the Kin achieve in Ebou Dar.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

The example you cite is about Amadicia--homeland of the Whitecloaks. The only other place where the fear and dislike comes as close is Tear.

The fear and distrust are pretty widespread everywhere south of the Borderlanders (where the Trollocs pose too much of a threat to worry about the possibility of darkfriend Aes Sedai, and Daes Dar Mar goes unplayed). Even in Andor, where the Queen is Aes Sedai trained, there is pretty widespread hatred of Aes Sedai. Amadacia is simply where the governing body also stands against Aes Sedai.

Barring those two the Aes Sedai would face no more issues than they do in being open about who they are when they stay at inns--which is not to say nothing.
I'm pretty sure the Aes Sedai have been told to straight up "get out" before. This is just fine when the Aes Sedai are simply passing through, but could become disastrous if they are interacting with the common people. One of the biggest inhibitors against working against Aes Sedai is that they are respected and feared by their reputation as more than human. Trying to humanize them might increase trust, but if it decreases the sense of awe it could pose serious issues.

No doubt fear of the Aes Sedai would present problems--but nothing the Aes Sedai aren't equiped to deal with.
By being aloof, vague, and bringing the authority of the Tower to bear while establishing dominance. Isn't that what people so often call them down for?

And, as time passes and their efforts engender good will and respect that would only decline (provided they didn't mistep badly, of course. Always a possibility).
And with the Black Ajah afoot, it is a very likely possibility. Even without them, how much are you willing to risk on an Aes Sedai acting correctly in a desperate situation? Or even if there is a correct answer? If a mob forms calling for Aes Sedai blood because they are being blamed for some blight in the crops, how can they react? Will they blow their way out, and make enemies with those people forever? Or will they let the mob take them, and show that Aes Sedai can be overwhelmed by power? Both options lead to disaster.

 

If you want to see the sort of situation they should be working towards, look what the Kin achieve in Ebou Dar.
The Kin aren't a foreign political body that heal using a method people fear and don't understand. They are, as far as the people in Ebou Dar know, just normal women who have taken up a trade in healing, earning them respect.

 

 

 

It should be pointed out that, even in places where hatred and fear are incredibly strong, the demands of an Aes Sedai hold a lot of sway. It's said that even the commander of the Whitecloaks, a man sworn to kill Aes Sedai when popular, would come if called to by the Amyrlin Seat. That, i think, says a lot about the abilities of an Aes Sedai to hold onto power. Sure, being feared rather than beloved is hardly optimal, but they've been fighting an uphill battle since Ishamel's plot with Hawkwing, and they've held on surprisingly well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 years later...
  • 2 weeks later...

 

I recall a time when Nynaeve and Elayne were in Salidar, showing people their discoveries, and they noticed that some of the AS picked up too quickly on this, or didn't seem to be surprised, or what have you. Just another example of AS foolishness, they would keep these "tricks" to themselves, to the grave, instead of helping the tower as a whole grow.

 

Actually, I think they should have kept more of the weaves to themselves. There were way to many BA running around at the time, to make it smart to show to much. Some obviously don't matter, but inverting should never have been taught until after the Purge.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The fake name is more of the Aes Sedai twisting words.  It comes down to how one words it.  To say my name is Bob is a lie.  But to say you can call me or I have been known as Bob isn't a lie.  If I simply say Bob, I never said that was my name.  I said a name that you have taken as my name.  But the big thing people seem to overlook is nothing says your warder can't lie for you.  If Lan said this is mistress so and so, then Moriane can rightfully claim I am known as mistress so and so here.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The fake name is more of the Aes Sedai twisting words. It comes down to how one words it. To say my name is Bob is a lie. But to say you can call me or I have been known as Bob isn't a lie. If I simply say Bob, I never said that was my name. I said a name that you have taken as my name. But the big thing people seem to overlook is nothing says your warder can't lie for you. If Lan said this is mistress so and so, then Moriane can rightfully claim I am known as mistress so and so here.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
 Share


×
×
  • Create New...