The Shadow's Strategy?

[Aiyen kin Leary]

While I have loved these books (as we all probably have on a site like this  :)), one thing has truly mystified me about them.  What the heck is the Shadow thinking?  The prophecies state quite plainly (if I recall correctly) that if the Dragon does not show up at Tarmon Gai'don, all is lost.  Now, turning Rand will win the battle for the DO, and he has certainly been trying!  But why not kill him, or capture him and turn him by force (13 myrdraal, anyone)?  Ishy plainly states that he wasn't really trying to kill Rand even as far back as TEOTW, before the link would have given him a reason to be careful of the Dragon's health.  "I sent a single fist of trollocs when I could have sent a hundred."  Maybe he was hoping for more power over the other Forsaken by having Rand as a servant, but wouldn't followers of a cause that has lost time after time know to be a little careful?  The oddest part of all though is in TGS, chapter 22.  I'm not going to post a spoiler since this is the general board, but to those who have read it:  do the DO's actions in that scene make any sense at all?  You'd think he would have left well enough alone long enough for the situation to play out...

 

I'm wondering, maybe TG can't happen without the Dragon's presence, or that his ta'vereness makes it imposssible to kill him or turn him by force.  Perhaps that explains the Shadow's seemingly self-defeating plans-the wheel protects its champion unless he freely chooses to forgo that protection.  Or maybe not.  Any thoughts?

[yoniy0]

Not really. You might consider that it is indeed very difficult to kill Rand, and DO is playing a numbers game. He might've decided to try this round the way Ishamael wants it (partly because of their connection, I'm sure), and see if that works. If not, he'll try something else next time.

Anyhoo, regarding ch.22, I'm not convinced that the DO really had anything to do with it. Brandon said that it was hard, not impossible.

 

[Val Mickey]

The Tamyrlin of Theoryland has asked us to think on Verin's statement from TGS (I think this is spoiler safe) that the battle is not going to be the way young Rand thinks it is going to be.

 

I assumed Rand thinks that Trollocs and Myrddraal and other Shadowspawn would pour out of the blight a la Tarwin's Gap. At the same time the DO would try to break out of his prison.

 

So what Verin could've meant, I have no idea. Any thoughts?

 

 

[Vermillion]

We don't know the end game.  Even when CoL has turned it only ended in a draw.  It would seem that the CoL being turned and things ending in a draw could only happen in an AoL type situation with where it kind of was a draw.  Male half tainted, world destroyed but DO locked away for a while until the CoL is reborn.

 

Ta'veren probably has a factor in trying to kill Rand.

[DocBean]

why is anyone afraid of TGS spoilers?

The spoiler ban was lifted months ago.

By now anyone on this site should have read TGS on hard or soft cover.

 

Chapter 22 is an instance of the "Stupid Villain" Cliche.

Semi should have just killed Rand instead of playing with him.

I felt like I was watching a James Bond movie.

 

Who knows maybe she would have been affected through the Bracelet.

[DocBean]

We don't know the end game.  Even when CoL has turned it only ended in a draw.  It would seem that the CoL being turned and things ending in a draw could only happen in an AoL type situation with where it kind of was a draw.  Male half tainted, world destroyed but DO locked away for a while until the CoL is reborn.

 

Ta'veren probably has a factor in trying to kill Rand.

 

 

that's exactly right. We know turning Rand won't necessarily let the Dark One win.

 

That why I believe the only way for the Dark One to win, is to die.

If Rand kills him, then the Dark One has played the game perfectly.

If Rand locks him up, then we keep on spinning.

 

I think that's why we see the Darkfriends playing with Rand, and trying to hurt him.

When Rand touched the True Source then his first instinct was to kill everything.

That's what the Dark One wants, for Rand to kill him. He's Goading Rand.

 

I also believe that's why Moridin paused so long after Rand said that was his plan.

I think in his head he thought. "Hmm, that's never been done. I wonder what would happen..."

but also thinks it's impossible.

 

[aunt_pol]

I have to say, I can't like the idea of Rand killing the DO being a victory for the Dark.  That'd be like, Yay!! We won!! , No, screw you, we did...!?!

[Shadow Rider]

I firmly believe, for the Great Lord to be freed, Rand has to reach Tarmon Gai'don. The Prophecies must be full filled for him to break free from his prison, hence the phrase, "Let the Lord of Chaos rule." In other words....Rand, must be left to run free.... I think if they kill Rand, the Great Lord will be stuck until the next Dragon. Ishamael has said, he has waited 3000yrs for the Dragon to be Reborn. They've been waiting for him.

[Vermillion]

We don't know the end game.  Even when CoL has turned it only ended in a draw.  It would seem that the CoL being turned and things ending in a draw could only happen in an AoL type situation with where it kind of was a draw.  Male half tainted, world destroyed but DO locked away for a while until the CoL is reborn.

 

Ta'veren probably has a factor in trying to kill Rand.

 

 

that's exactly right. We know turning Rand won't necessarily let the Dark One win.

 

That why I believe the only way for the Dark One to win, is to die.

If Rand kills him, then the Dark One has played the game perfectly.

If Rand locks him up, then we keep on spinning.

 

I think that's why we see the Darkfriends playing with Rand, and trying to hurt him.

When Rand touched the True Source then his first instinct was to kill everything.

That's what the Dark One wants, for Rand to kill him. He's Goading Rand.

 

I also believe that's why Moridin paused so long after Rand said that was his plan.

I think in his head he thought. "Hmm, that's never been done. I wonder what would happen..."

but also thinks it's impossible.

 

 

I don't know.  I just took it that the prison cannot be sealed without Rand.  Turning him prevents him from properly sealing the prison but the Wheel would seal it until it was ready to be done right.  Like Logain becoming ta'veren and sealing the prison again but not properly.  

 

I think this Age the Dragon has to be at the last battle at least by prophecy which seems always right deal. I just think RJ said Rand had be turned before without thinking it out how it comes about like that.  Unless the Rand had come back from the Shadow or whatever.  

[yoniy0]

Semi should have just killed Rand instead of playing with him.

She was told in no uncertain term that she's ONLY to capture him and bring him to SG. She was given one last chance, and any imperfection would've been the end of her for sure.

 

I think if they kill Rand, the Great Lord will be stuck until the next Dragon.

Except that they've green-lighted Rand's death when he tried to Cleanse the Source.

[Shadow Rider]

I think if they kill Rand, the Great Lord will be stuck until the next Dragon.

Except that they've green-lighted Rand's death when he tried to Cleanse the Source.

 

Yes, because of what he was doing.

They can always wait for the next Dragon, The Great Lord has been imprisoned like forever anyway.

[DemandredFO]

I'm sure they'll be lots of Trollocs and shadowspawn.  Remember the portal world, everything was dead, except Grolm but no Dark Victory, so just killing everyone doesn't work.

I remembering posts the champion of light and Dragon don't have to be the same person, so what if Ishamael was the champion of Light and turned but LTT was the dragon.  The AoL clearly ended in a draw.  The strategy now has to be to turn becaus we have no idea what killing Rand will do to Moridin and vice versa.  I think everything was going well for the DO until Cadsuane.  She might have screwed up but pushing Rand hard might've also been the only way.  The DO clearly lost that particular round and now the strategy is probably hurt him as much as possible by trolloc destruction and turn the clock back.

[Vermillion]

I'm sure they'll be lots of Trollocs and shadowspawn.  Remember the portal world, everything was dead, except Grolm but no Dark Victory, so just killing everyone doesn't work.

I remembering posts the champion of light and Dragon don't have to be the same person, so what if Ishamael was the champion of Light and turned but LTT was the dragon.  The AoL clearly ended in a draw.  The strategy now has to be to turn becaus we have no idea what killing Rand will do to Moridin and vice versa.  I think everything was going well for the DO until Cadsuane.  She might have screwed up but pushing Rand hard might've also been the only way.  The DO clearly lost that particular round and now the strategy is probably hurt him as much as possible by trolloc destruction and turn the clock back.

 

No, I think it was that Rand isn't always reborn as the CoL, he has other lives.  I always wondered why Ishamael influenced so much in the world like the blight receding and the winter breaking when he was defeated.

[Duskfire]

Rand needs to be alive to spread chaos in his name. If he were to die he would become a martyr and be a symbol for everyone to rally around. With him alive its the exact opposite; he gets to be blamed for the worlds troubles which destablises and destroys morale. Also the whole "turning to the darkside" scenerio did almost work; was only a breathe away from actually succeeding, so you cant really say the Shadows strategy is bad. If it weren't for Cadsuane pulling something (or someone in this case) from her ass who knows what would have happened.

 

I think its more idiotic that except for a couple of cases Mat and Perrin have been largely ignored. Its known that they also need to make it to TG for everyone to win; the Shadow should be focusing on them. Instead we have had Sammael make a few half-hearted attempts and thats it, and that was more to get Rand to come after him rather then anything against them.

[yoniy0]

The reason it doesn't work (although, at this point all we could safely say is that it hasn't worked yet, since regardless of the result of Hawkwing's confrontation with the Shadow, the Seals still hold) is that the DO is a constant in all mirror worlds. To be free in one is to be free in all; hence to be imprisoned in one is to be imprisoned in all.

[Aiyen kin Leary]

Quote:

 

why is anyone afraid of TGS spoilers?

The spoiler ban was lifted months ago.

By now anyone on this site should have read TGS on hard or soft cover.

 

OK, I wasn't sure.  Better safe than invoking the wrath of Luckers  ;)

 

Rand needs to be alive to spread chaos in his name. If he were to die he would become a martyr and be a symbol for everyone to rally around. With him alive its the exact opposite; he gets to be blamed for the worlds troubles which destablises and destroys morale. Also the whole "turning to the darkside" scenerio did almost work; was only a breathe away from actually succeeding, so you cant really say the Shadows strategy is bad. If it weren't for Cadsuane pulling something (or someone in this case) from her ass who knows what would have happened.

 

I think its more idiotic that except for a couple of cases Mat and Perrin have been largely ignored. Its known that they also need to make it to TG for everyone to win; the Shadow should be focusing on them. Instead we have had Sammael make a few half-hearted attempts and thats it, and that was more to get Rand to come after him rather then anything against them.

 

 

Exactly: it ALMOST worked, while taking Rand to SG and turning him via Myrdraal would be an instant win.  It's foolish to persue a strategy that has a 90% chance of working when there's a 100% option in the works. Though it is a valid point that the DO might not have given Rand TP access knowingly/willingly.

[farthammer]

In Moridins favorite game, it only just begins when the fisher king is captured.  One of the paths to victory is achieved if you can get him to the goal row behind your opponent.  It is not guaranteed you will win even if you have him captured, and in fact it may be just as dangerous as if your opponent had him.  Anyway Moridin seems to really like the idea of drawing parallels with it to the war against the DO.  He could still be quite wrong in a major way, but I guess he has the DO's blessing so far.

 

Otherwise I think the DO requires a specific act, unwittingly or deliberately, by Rand to essentially shatter the planet similar to how the Sharom was shattered.  Rand is needed for his oneness with the land.  Why rely only on winning a complicated game when you can just smash the board itself.