Of the Blademasters, who are the top 5?

[Jon Paul]

The thing people seem to be forgetting about swords in the Age of Legends.. it isn't brought up because it was a popular sport.. it's brought up because these men entirely redefined it is a valid and indeed vital weapon of weapon.

 

Sammael was number one. He was a professional athlete prior to the war, and he was noted as being the world champion in swords. Not even Lan would come close to his level of skill.

 

Didn't stop Lews Therin from dragging a white-hot piece of iron across his face..

[Kal11]

Do either of you actually think Sammael is presented in a way that says hes a wimp who cant hack it in real combat?

 

This whole discussion is pointless. He was a the world champion at swords, was a soldier, and is a murdering maniac Forsaken. I think it's pretty clear that his skill from his sporting days will translate to the real world of swords. After all, Be'lal's did.

 

I wasn't talking about Sammael at all. I don't believe he tops the list regardless, due to lack of information if nothing else. Accomplished sure but anything after that is speculation.

[Kal11]

The thing people seem to be forgetting about swords in the Age of Legends.. it isn't brought up because it was a popular sport.. it's brought up because these men entirely redefined it is a valid and indeed vital weapon of weapon.

 

Sammael was number one. He was a professional athlete prior to the war, and he was noted as being the world champion in swords. Not even Lan would come close to his level of skill.

 

Didn't stop Lews Therin from dragging a white-hot piece of iron across his face..

 

Lol.

[David Selig]

The thing people seem to be forgetting about swords in the Age of Legends.. it isn't brought up because it was a popular sport.. it's brought up because these men entirely redefined it is a valid and indeed vital weapon of weapon.

This never made sense for me, BTW. They had all kinds of advanced tech weapons, like shocklances, so it's just stupid to use swords in real battles. Seems like a sure way to get yourself killed very quickly.

 

LTT was a powerful channeller anyway, so he had no reason to use any weapon except in those very rare cases when he got shielded or was in stedding. So logically he should've had next to nothing in terms of real experience of using a sword in battle.

[Mats Spare Hat]

At the same time, getting back to what the other guy was getting at with Sammael, he's obviously got the athletic background & skill set to slice and dice - he's a world champion. We also know he's of the Forsaken, also as Mark D stated, which implies he's of the psychological capacity to dish out death and misery without much regard for well, much of anything I suppose.

 

Do I know Lan could take him? No. Would Sammy own all comers? Your guess is as good as mine. There's no evidence we can point to to concretely say one's better than the other. We can however surmise that Sammael knows/knew what he was about when it came to hacking & slashing.

 

Real life timeframe through basic & most advanced AIT: All together around 5 years(?), add another couple years for assumed deployment, real in-theatre experience?

 

Sammael was what, over 300 years old by the time the war of power came about? Four years into the actual War of Power(10 years long) he goes over to the Shadow, which occurred after 80-100 years post-bore busting "Where there had previously been a peaceful utopian society, relatively free of major crimes, degenerate practices began to spread, violent sports became popular and society began to decline rapidly"

 

Bring all that together, the time frame, knowing how long Sammael was alive, what he practiced, hints about his personality, the ample time & opportunity to develop a soldiering mindset - if that's how you want to refer to it as. Mark D is right, in the case of Sammael, his sporting activity does translate.

 

Van Damme can take a punch, wiki it up!

[Entreri]

Actual combat >> Sporting activity

 

The stress, the injuries and how one handles it.

 

I have to give an edge to these primitives, unless LTT et al used the swords more frequently in battle. LTT being ta'veren of such strength...who knows, unless there are RJ notes or Brandon wants to weight in.

 

 

Lan > all.

[Thrasymachus]

I think it's pretty likely that the AoL guys would end up being pretty darn good with the blade pretty quickly, and it makes perfect sense to for swords to have been adopted as a sort of last ditch personal defense. Before the Bore, actual fighting, let alone warfare, was almost unheard of. Once the war broke out, taking and holding territory doesn't make sense as an offensive strategy, since both sides have channelers that can gate to anywhere. Defenses against gating probably took a while to develop, so the main offensive strategy, of both sides, would have been intense tactical strikes aimed at taking out priority targets, production centers, training facilities, and particularly powerful and influential people. Those people would have had a strong incentive to learn some sort of personal martial art as a last defense, and it makes sense that swordplay, being one of the few martial arts that survived into the AoL as a sport, would have been adapted to provide that defense.

[Jon Paul]

This never made sense for me, BTW. They had all kinds of advanced tech weapons, like shocklances, so it's just stupid to use swords in real battles. Seems like a sure way to get yourself killed very quickly.

 

Technologically the Age was declining very sharply. In the end the sword had become the main weapon of the period because it was a viable weapon.

[Mulk]

piggy backing on what Jon Paul said:

 

What you have in the War of the Shadow at the end of the Age of Legends is a society whose ability to manufacture, conduct business, etc etc wanes very rapidly and I think it's not a stretch at all to think that by the end of the war there were very few (if any) places left that were capable of manufacturing advanced weaponry at the rate at which it was being destroyed. This is one of the main reasons the North beat the South in the U.S. Civil War: the North was able to split up the Confederacy and strangle its ability to re-stock and re-supply. Throw in that the South didn't have a ton of manufacturing capability and had a smaller military population and their advantage in terms of skills of the commanders goes for naught.

 

In RJ's world, many cities had been destroyed in the war, and many of those that survived were ruined in some state or other. There can't have been much production capacity left. Throw in that they didn't have guns or cannons as we know them, a sword is a great fall back weapon so you're not facing trollocs and the like with your fists. As to LTT's knowledge of swords, he learned it (by inference from the brief conversation with Be'lal and what little we know elsewhere) as a game prior to the War very well. I'd imagine it was similar to fencing of today, where no one gets hurt except by accident. I would also imagine that he was acclaimed a blademaster prior to the war. When war broke out, he and all of the rest learned how to kill with it and since he had been very skilled at the game of it, he turned out to be pretty good at it in war, too.

 

my two cents.

 

edited once to rearrange some ideas; edited a second time for the following:

 

I don't dispute that knowing a martial art of any sort (and I think swordsmanship technically qualifies) doesn't mean you'll be good at it when it's for your life. I also think that knowing it puts you one up on quite a few people though, because at least you've trained for something similar. Swordplay, even for fun, is all about diverting or avoiding strikes while dealing out your own, and the guy who has practiced that even for fun is way the heck up on someone who hasn't. in the case of AoL society, no one had any practice at war, so they were all on the same footing when the War of the Shadow started.

[David Selig]

This never made sense for me, BTW. They had all kinds of advanced tech weapons, like shocklances, so it's just stupid to use swords in real battles. Seems like a sure way to get yourself killed very quickly.

 

Technologically the Age was declining very sharply. In the end the sword had become the main weapon of the period because it was a viable weapon.

I am not sure about that. Certainly in the Rhuidein flashback of the day LTT sealed the Bore, the soldiers were wearing shocklances, there were jo-cars, aircrafts, etc, in abundance.

[Jon Paul]

I am not sure about that. Certainly in the Rhuidein flashback of the day LTT sealed the Bore, the soldiers were wearing shocklances, there were jo-cars, aircrafts, etc, in abundance.

 

Are you sure about that? I recall reading that technologically they were crumbling, most likely in the BWB, but I recall evidence for it in the flashbacks as well. The simple soldier lad carrying a sword etc.

[Finnssss22]

I am not sure about that. Certainly in the Rhuidein flashback of the day LTT sealed the Bore, the soldiers were wearing shocklances, there were jo-cars, aircrafts, etc, in abundance.

 

Hardly in abundance.

 

First off, it's two different events. The sealing was one event and the breaking was another.

 

At the time of the sealing, there was still some advanced weapons and vehicles left. Not many though and what you saw is what you got, the ability to manufacture them was lost decades previously.

 

The time during the breaking pretty much took care of what ever was left and then on top of that, the Trolloc wars, a thousand years later, served to further displace any AoL knowledge and collections.

[NitroS]

going off RJ and Brandon quotes it goes Lan, Rand, Galad then Gawyn

[WhiskyJack]

So many fanboys, haters and downright silly people.Just stick to what is in book people, and not what you imagine it would be. If someone beats someone, that's constitutes as sure proof. Your imagination is not proof.

 

And yes, if Sanderson says Lan is better, he is better.

[Kahsm]

going off RJ and Brandon quotes it goes Lan, Rand, Galad then Gawyn

 

Probably get torn apart for saying this, but if it's true, I'm pretty disappointed with how Brandon wrote the Gawyn Scenes the last couple books. Gawyn vs Galad in the Tower was AGES ago, and they always suggested Gawyn held back because of how he felt he "owned" Galad. Once Galad left, and Gawyn took over the younglings, he blossomed (for lack of a better word).

 

Putting aside Brandon's quote I would unequivocally believe that Gawyn is the top swordsman. And one of the reasons, is that you'd think he'd be good for something... at least Galad still runs an army, which I doubt leaves much time to practice sword forms.

 

It's possible we just haven't seen enough combat scenes written by Sanderson. But the thought process we get from Gawyn while he fights is quite extensive, and that gave me the impression that he thinks much faster. Back in RJ's combat scenes, Rand would mention a form name now and then, but that was it. Gawyn's thought process just seemed much more advanced which gave the impression that he's better. I'd like to see a scene from Galad's PoV while he fights if he's supposedly still better.

 

Also! Maybe Galad is only ranked higher than Gawyn because of Gawyn's debt to Galad. It causes him to "go easy" on Galad. There could be people Gaywn can beat that Galad can't, but Galad can always beat Gawyn.

[WhiskyJack]

^^If you only go by results, Gawyn trumps them all. But Sanderson I think has confirmed that Gawyn is not really that good and Mat has kinda rubbed on him. So hopefully in AMoL we will learn more about Gawyn but there must be a reason why Sanderson has out him past Lan and Galad.

[NitroS]

going off RJ and Brandon quotes it goes Lan, Rand, Galad then Gawyn

 

Probably get torn apart for saying this, but if it's true, I'm pretty disappointed with how Brandon wrote the Gawyn Scenes the last couple books. Gawyn vs Galad in the Tower was AGES ago, and they always suggested Gawyn held back because of how he felt he "owned" Galad. Once Galad left, and Gawyn took over the younglings, he blossomed (for lack of a better word).

 

Putting aside Brandon's quote I would unequivocally believe that Gawyn is the top swordsman. And one of the reasons, is that you'd think he'd be good for something... at least Galad still runs an army, which I doubt leaves much time to practice sword forms.

 

It's possible we just haven't seen enough combat scenes written by Sanderson. But the thought process we get from Gawyn while he fights is quite extensive, and that gave me the impression that he thinks much faster. Back in RJ's combat scenes, Rand would mention a form name now and then, but that was it. Gawyn's thought process just seemed much more advanced which gave the impression that he's better. I'd like to see a scene from Galad's PoV while he fights if he's supposedly still better.

 

Also! Maybe Galad is only ranked higher than Gawyn because of Gawyn's debt to Galad. It causes him to "go easy" on Galad. There could be people Gaywn can beat that Galad can't, but Galad can always beat Gawyn.

 

quote from brandon "gawyn was more lucky than he believes"

[Finnssss22]

Are there seriously people around that actually doubt Lan's #1 spot?

 

Anytime we have seen sword fights between highly skilled combatants it takes time and great effort from both sides before someone wins EXCEPT with Lan.

Rand vs Blademaster Turak...long fight.

Galad vs Blademaster Valda...long fight.

Gawyn vs Bloodknives...long fight(s).

Rand vs Blademaster Toram Riatin...long fight.

Lan vs Blademaster Toram Riatin...Lan kills him in seconds, not minutes.

 

Should there really be any doubt here folks?

Only the fights where there is some doubt and a genuine contest between two people is worth devoting a lot of "screen time" to. Lan's dominance doesn't allow for much mystery in such battles.

 

Lan killing a Fade is worth a sentence or two.

Lan killing another Blademaster, maybe a paragraph.

Any other Blademaster vs Blademaster...we're talking pages.

 

 

That out of the way, what I would be interested in, is where Tam falls in those rankings.

[Kal11]

Are there seriously people around that actually doubt Lan's #1 spot?

 

Anytime we have seen sword fights between highly skilled combatants it takes time and great effort from both sides before someone wins EXCEPT with Lan.

Rand vs Blademaster Turak...long fight.

Galad vs Blademaster Valda...long fight.

Gawyn vs Bloodknives...long fight(s).

Rand vs Blademaster Toram Riatin...long fight.

Lan vs Blademaster Toram Riatin...Lan kills him in seconds, not minutes.

 

Should there really be any doubt here folks?

Only the fights where there is some doubt and a genuine contest between two people is worth devoting a lot of "screen time" to. Lan's dominance doesn't allow for much mystery in such battles.

 

Lan killing a Fade is worth a sentence or two.

Lan killing another Blademaster, maybe a paragraph.

Any other Blademaster vs Blademaster...we're talking pages.

 

 

That out of the way, what I would be interested in, is where Tam falls in those rankings.

 

 

If someone doesn't realize Lan is the best swordsman based on the story and the author's words/ranking then you will likely never convince them.

[Kahsm]

Are there seriously people around that actually doubt Lan's #1 spot?

If someone doesn't realize Lan is the best swordsman based on the story and the author's words/ranking then you will likely never convince them.

 

We don't see Lan fight people that often, and he's only getting older, and the young-ens (Galad and Gawyn specifically) are only getting better. I don't doubt he was #1 at the start, or even in the middle of the series, but I don't think it's beyond reason to wonder how they'd stack up currently. As I said, I thought Gawyn was turning into a sword savant, akin to Rand's channeling, but Sanderson says otherwise. I'm not entirely sure how beating blood knives and 2 highly-trained men (1 a blademaster) simultaneously, successfully, and repeatedly is "lucky". I mean he's not Mat... but I guess that's a RAFO.

 

I also think people attribute greatness to whoever their favourite characters are. I mean people somehow dragged Mat into this blademaster discussion. "Well mat could beat them all!" So those who put anyone anywhere WITHOUT doubt (unless their proof is author's word which is pretty final), are likely just championing their champion.

 

Which, btw, makes Mazrim Taim the greatest blademaster in all of Randland. Yes, the guy who seems to abhore, or at least find no use in, melee weapons.

[Suttree]

I also think people attribute greatness to whoever their favourite characters are. I mean people somehow dragged Mat into this blademaster discussion. "Well mat could beat them all!" So those who put anyone anywhere WITHOUT doubt (unless their proof is author's word which is pretty final), are likely just championing their champion.

 

Believe they are saying Mat could beat them all due to the whole "Jearom only lost once and it was to a farmer with a quarterstaff" story.

 

As for the list all we have to go off is the authors word and he has Lan at #1.

[Kal11]

Are there seriously people around that actually doubt Lan's #1 spot?

If someone doesn't realize Lan is the best swordsman based on the story and the author's words/ranking then you will likely never convince them.

 

We don't see Lan fight people that often, and he's only getting older, and the young-ens (Galad and Gawyn specifically) are only getting better. I don't doubt he was #1 at the start, or even in the middle of the series, but I don't think it's beyond reason to wonder how they'd stack up currently. As I said, I thought Gawyn was turning into a sword savant, akin to Rand's channeling, but Sanderson says otherwise. I'm not entirely sure how beating blood knives and 2 highly-trained men (1 a blademaster) simultaneously, successfully, and repeatedly is "lucky". I mean he's not Mat... but I guess that's a RAFO.

 

I also think people attribute greatness to whoever their favourite characters are. I mean people somehow dragged Mat into this blademaster discussion. "Well mat could beat them all!" So those who put anyone anywhere WITHOUT doubt (unless their proof is author's word which is pretty final), are likely just championing their champion.

 

Which, btw, makes Mazrim Taim the greatest blademaster in all of Randland. Yes, the guy who seems to abhore, or at least find no use in, melee weapons.

 

 

I doubt Lan has dropped in the space of 2 years or so that the story has gone on, hell he might even be better since Moiraine's "death" in TFoH. Timeline wise it was not long ago that he destroyed Riatin pretty effortlessly and he gave Rand (who was by the author's word #2 at the time) a good fight. I also find it hard to believe that he would get basically owned by Valda before pulling out a last second win and Sanderson put Galad above Gawyn. The idea that Gawyn is suddenly the best requires making hypothetical arguments for Lan's decline (which there is zero evidence to suggest) and ignoring the word of both authors. Lan>everyone, it is one of the clearest and most direct answers we have concerning stacking up characters.

[cookiecrisp]

I think Darlin Sisnera probably #4 after BS's picks. He did give Mat one heck of a fight. If Mat's 1v2 against Galad and Gawyn is any indication, Mat's a tough opponent for the average blademaster.

 

#5 would probably be Be'lal. Rand had already been trained by Lan prior to the fight and was being toyed with the whole way through. If Be'lal didn't want Callandor, he could've cut him into ribbons.

[capuga]

I think Darlin Sisnera probably #4 after BS's picks. He did give Mat one heck of a fight. If Mat's 1v2 against Galad and Gawyn is any indication, Mat's a tough opponent for the average blademaster.

 

#5 would probably be Be'lal. Rand had already been trained by Lan prior to the fight and was being toyed with the whole way through. If Be'lal didn't want Callandor, he could've cut him into ribbons.

 

Except, after the Rand/Toram duel when they all go out to fight the bubble of evil, Darlin is the only one of the three that doesn't have a heron-marked blade. Cadsuane makes a comment along the lines of "We have three fine swords with us, two of them heron-marked" refering to Rand and Toram. Darlin is certainly a fine swordsman but he doesn't seem to be a blademaster and certainly no reason to believe that he would be ranked as high as #4. Keep in mind that his fight with Mat was in close quarters which limits the effectiveness of the quarterstaff.

[Kal11]

I would say Valda would be a good candidate for the 4 or 5 spot. He took it to Galad pretty hard and seemed to be toying with him before slipping up.