Taim and Rand

[Barid Bel Medar]

Just had a thought to post something that I have always experienced through the series, but I havent seen it mentioned on the forums.

 

Now I know Taim is most likely evil and such, and is definitly plotting in some way against Rand, but I always thought Rand treated Taim a bit rough.

 

Now just put aside the fact that Taim is most likely a DF, Rand does not know that in his interactions with Taim.

 

Consider what has happened to Taim, he has just come from escaping from AS and goes to Rand for his amnesty, now Taim wants to go into some alliance, which for Rand, it is fair enough that he wants to make sure Taim knows that Rand is the top dog.

 

But really, he treats him like crap, he says, go to this farm and teach these people how to channel and turn them into weapons or ill kill you (basically) And when Taim suggests things, like him helping Rand do stuff, or teaching Rand to do certain things, Rand flys of his handle and basically says shut the.. up, just do what i tell you.

 

Now lets skip forward. He saves Rand's life (the Grey man) and Rand abuses him. (note: Rand does not know that Taim is evil, for all purposes, he just saved his life) He reports that AS are messing around in the city and offers to take care of them. Alright, fair enough, probably not the best thing to just kill them, but on the surface of it atleast, Taim is just offering to protect Rand, by whatever unpleasant means.

Now look at what Rand says, he will kill Taim if thers any channeling in Caemyln (saidin), which is a bit rough,  as he points out, one of the Forsaken could easily pop up. Taim cant control everything.

 

Skip forward now to Dumai's wells.

 

The AM turn up and save Rand and Perrin (the Shaido would have destroyed Perrins little group if AM hadnt turned up) True, it was a bit grizly the way they did it, but what do u expect, Rand said create weapons, and so he did, yet Rand gets angry again, yelling at Taim, when what he was doing was (again, on the surface, as far as Rand knows) to protect Rand. Yet he is ungrateful (really) to Taim, and is more annoyed at him.

 

Forward to the AS attack on the BT, and when Logain reveals what they have done to the AS, Rand again flies of the handle and abuses Logain (indirectly Taim aswell), yet what did he expect them to do? Just send the AS on their way, saying, please, dont attack again. Really, (again, Rand does not know Taim is evil) Logain and Taim did all they could do.

 

So, Taim can do nothing right, even when on the surface, it seems he is trying.  I believe that Rand was always too harsh on Taim and the other AM.

 

Thoughts?

 

[Sagacious Lu]

To be honest I thought Rand was unnecessarily harsh with Taim before I saw evidence of wrong doing.  However, Rand not only gave him protection from the death (or gentling) sentence on his head but gave him a position that would obviously bring him a great deal of power and glory if done well.  Under the circumstances I would have expected Taim to feel some gratitude; unless he was just to proud to work under someone else, or was was a dark friend from the word go.  To be honest I thought Taim was Demandred up until I read someone on here mention that RJ explicitly said that he wasn't.  If you'll forgive a noob question, can you (or anyone else) back that up?  Are we really certain that he isn't Demandred?

[Barid Bel Medar]

To be honest I thought Rand was unnecessarily harsh with Taim before I saw evidence of wrong doing.  However, Rand not only gave him protection from the death (or gentling) sentence on his head but gave him a position that would obviously bring him a great deal of power and glory if done well.  Under the circumstances I would have expected Taim to feel some gratitude; unless he was just to proud to work under someone else, or was was a dark friend from the word go.  To be honest I thought Taim was Demandred up until I read someone on here mention that RJ explicitly said that he wasn't.  If you'll forgive a noob question, can you (or anyone else) back that up?  Are we really certain that he isn't Demandred?

 

A vaild point, and everyone was once a noob, besides, not everyone desires to scour databases for information, so no snide comments about lack of knowledge from me. I constantly get things wrong.

 

However, yes, Taim is not Demandred, it is definite.

 

TOR Questions of the Week, December 2003-April 2004

 

Robert Jordan Answers: Yes. Demandred has never posed as Mazrim Taim. All right, those of who fell over from the shock of a simple, straightforward answer can get up off the floor now. Sometimes, simple and straightforward can be the most devious of all, as any student of Aes Sedai will tell you.

 

DragonCon 4 September 2005 - Emma reporting

 

Emma: Was Taimandred a deliberate ruse to lead your readers astray, or were you surprised (by the all of the theories connecting Taim to Demandred)?

Jordan: I was surprised...but I wasn't going to disabuse you of it for a while. I like to watch you squirm.

 

Crossroads of Twilight Book Tour, Barnes and Noble signing NYC 7 January 2003 - WinespringBrother reporting

 

 

Q: Is Taim Demandred?

RJ: No, that is totally bogus.

 

Crossroads of Twilight book tour 16 January 2003, Dayton, OH - Matthew Julius reporting

 

Q: It's been said that you mentioned that Mazrim Taim is not Demandred. There seems to be some confusion on whether or not you said that.

RJ: Mazrim Taim is not Demandred.

 

So it is pretty clear  ;D

 

 

[Sagacious Lu]

Thanks! I guess that leaves Taim's background wide open.  I'm still going with the idea that no matter how rude Rand was to him that if he walked in the light he would have been grateful for the opportunity of a lifetime.

[The Fisher King]

''Now I know Taim is most likely evil and such, and is definitly plotting in some way against Rand, but I always thought Rand treated Taim a bit rough.''

 

I so very COMPLETELY Agree!!! ... I used to think I was the only one that thought this or picked-up on it. I have always felt this.

 

I always picked up a vibe that...and maybe it was subconcious on his part, but, I always picked up the sense that Rand was always slightly intimidated by Taim.

 

Which, yes...TOTALLY *UN* Characteristic of Rand...but we all have our Achilles Heel and there is an Exception to every gosh darn Rule. I think Taim is Rand's.

 

At the very least, Taim always seemed to get under Rand's skin like nobody else in the whole series could manage to ..... well, until Cadsuane Sedai in later days.

 

 

Fish

[Barid Bel Medar]

''Now I know Taim is most likely evil and such, and is definitly plotting in some way against Rand, but I always thought Rand treated Taim a bit rough.''

 

I so very COMPLETELY Agree!!! ... I used to think I was the only one that thought this or picked-up on it. I have always felt this.

 

I always picked up a vibe that...and maybe it was subconcious on his part, but, I always picked up the sense that Rand was always slightly intimidated by Taim.

 

Which, yes...TOTALLY *UN* Characteristic of Rand...but we all have our Achilles Heel and there is an Exception to every gosh darn Rule. I think Taim is Rand's.

 

At the very least, Taim always seemed to get under Rand's skin like nobody else in the whole series could manage to ..... well, until Cadsuane Sedai in later days.

 

 

Fish

 

I also have a sneaking suspicion that this is also the case. Note that the only two Ashaman he treats unreasonably harshly is the two false Dragons, Taim and Logain, who, incidentally are both near as strong as him in the power.

 

He doesnt treat the others nearly half as badly, even Dashiva who was a Forsaken, so its not like he inherantly knows that Taim is bad.

 

very interesting..

[The Fisher King]

Taim and Logain?

 

I agree that I would PREFER to see Rand treat Logain a bit nicer than he does...but...I don't think he treats Logain anywhere NEAR as badly as he does Taim.

 

JMO

 

Fish

[Fains nose]

I thought he treated logain like sh!t, and me no like that, but i hated taim because rand was scared of him

[Duskfire]

Well, it was pretty obvious from the get go though Taim wasn't really a nice guy. Regardless of whether he was a darkfriend or not, in the very first chapter he was in he definetly came across as being arrogant and a bit menacing. I imagine that wouldn't have helped his cause at all. Rand probably overreacted, but it was the first time he was willing to let another male near him who was close to his strength and wasn't shielded, so it makes a bit of sense.

[Ala Rubra]

I think it's pretty understandable that Rand treats Logain and Taim the way he does. He's obviously still harboring doubts and possibly resentment that the two of them claimed to be the Dragon Reborn. He doesn't feel that he can trust them, so he tries to put them in their place, establish himself as top dog to the two powerful, charismatic men that were essentially something like power-hungry chaos-spreading glory hounds before he came along.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

My whackjob theory. Taim is the false Dragon Guaire Amalasan, since we know that Amalasan was alive during one of "Ishamaels" cycles. Ishamael simply put Amalasan into a stasis box. Then went on to corrupt Artur Hawkwing. Amalasans fate is also a bit unknown since all we get is vague snippets that Amalasans supporters managed to break into the inner compound of Tar Valon itself. It's left open if this meant he escaped or not, evenmoreso since Aes Sedai have a habit of writing "official history" that differs a small bit from the actual facts.

[DemandredFO]

We'll don't forget, with Taim Rand has LTT's voice ranting in his head about killing Taim and such so that doesn't help.  Logain seems to be nice enough in his way and I will agree Rand treats him like sh1t.

RJ tacking that, sometimes the straightforward answers can be the most misleading, onto the Taim answer; I wonder if that's significant or him just messing with our heads.

[Bowden]

Both Taim and Logain were arrogant butt holes from the second they're introduced IMO. Above and beyond any of the "nobles" we've seen I think.

 

As for Rand treating Taim like crap from the get go; he gave Rand a seal to the DO's prison and knew what it was. How many others besides AS and Forsaken knew those on site? Bashere didn't even know. Rand's subconscious is guiding him correctly with Taim.

 

Logain and Rand didn't meet until later, when Rand was well on his way to becoming dark. Logain's saving grace is that he does seem to be a lightfriend, but he also seems to think he's equal to the DR and Rand pre-VOG was getting awfully tired of convincing people to do what he thought needed to be done. Not to mention him not believing Rand cleansed the source. Honestly, who would claim that unless it were true?

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

Taim being a darkfriend simply seems too obvious. It would go against the entire flow the books have gone so far. I think it will simply turn out to Taim being an unscrupulous and ambitious douchebag. However not evil or a darkfriend per se. Simply an unpleasant character and his assassination attempt on Rand had less to do with helping the DO than it was an attempted powergrab for personal glory and vanity.

 

And Logain will turn out to be the darkfriend or he will be turned by the Black Ajah. His glory being leading the armies of dreadlords.

[Duskfire]

We'll don't forget, with Taim Rand has LTT's voice ranting in his head about killing Taim and such so that doesn't help.  Logain seems to be nice enough in his way and I will agree Rand treats him like sh1t.

RJ tacking that, sometimes the straightforward answers can be the most misleading, onto the Taim answer; I wonder if that's significant or him just messing with our heads.

 

I disagree Logain is nice. He is actually quite the arrogant bugger as well, and also seems to hold a bit of resentment toward Rand too. Whether thats because Rand hasn't taken him under his wing or because of the Dragon Reborn thing, regardless those two don't get all along that well and Rand can't be blamed for all of that.

 

Taim being a darkfriend simply seems too obvious. It would go against the entire flow the books have gone so far. I think it will simply turn out to Taim being an unscrupulous and ambitious douchebag. However not evil or a darkfriend per se. Simply an unpleasant character and his assassination attempt on Rand had less to do with helping the DO than it was an attempted powergrab for personal glory and vanity.

 

And Logain will turn out to be the darkfriend or he will be turned by the Black Ajah. His glory being leading the armies of dreadlords.

 

How is Taim being a darkfriend obvious? I thought it wasnt really made clear until the very end of KoD.

[cortezthekiller]

Rand's manner with Taim, the Asha'man, and any channelers, male or female, is much the same, and seems pretty obvious that it stems directly from the fact that he is (was) insane, and the voices in his head went haywire every time one showed up, especially male channelers.

 

If it weren't for Lews Therin's 'voice' in Rand's head, I think he would have acted very differently.  After all, nearly every outburst against Taim was preceded directly by rantings from Lews.

 

If you go to a mental institution, and one of the patents is incredibly rude, do you get upset and conclude that the person is a jerk, or just mentally unstable?

 

Also, I think Taim has pretty thick skin.  I don't think his feelings were really hurt.

[Owayn The Traveller]

Taim being a darkfriend simply seems too obvious. It would go against the entire flow the books have gone so far. I think it will simply turn out to Taim being an unscrupulous and ambitious douchebag. However not evil or a darkfriend per se. Simply an unpleasant character and his assassination attempt on Rand had less to do with helping the DO than it was an attempted powergrab for personal glory and vanity.

 

And Logain will turn out to be the darkfriend or he will be turned by the Black Ajah. His glory being leading the armies of dreadlords.

 

I use to post stuff along those lines as well. Get ready for everyone to claim Logain is definitely not a darkfriend and that Taim is.

 

Okay not everyone but a few. All the information does seem to point to Taim being shadow and Logain being light but hey their is a chance that it might not turn out that way.

 

I think Logain is full of himself and I can't understand why he is so liked. Is it because he described as being powerful and good looking?  What has he really done to warrant the support he gets as a character?

[Duskfire]

Taim being a darkfriend simply seems too obvious. It would go against the entire flow the books have gone so far. I think it will simply turn out to Taim being an unscrupulous and ambitious douchebag. However not evil or a darkfriend per se. Simply an unpleasant character and his assassination attempt on Rand had less to do with helping the DO than it was an attempted powergrab for personal glory and vanity.

 

And Logain will turn out to be the darkfriend or he will be turned by the Black Ajah. His glory being leading the armies of dreadlords.

 

I use to post stuff along those lines as well. Get ready for everyone to claim Logain is definitely not a darkfriend and that Taim is.

 

Okay not everyone but a few. All the information does seem to point to Taim being shadow and Logain being light but hey their is a chance that it might not turn out that way.

 

I think Logain is full of himself and I can't understand why he is so liked. Is it because he described as being powerful and good looking?  What has he really done to warrant the support he gets as a character?

 

Well, I think it was RJ who pointed out that Cadsuane and Logain have similar personalities (Cadsuane is just alot older and more experienced.) Yet the general WoT reader loves Logain and dislikes Cadsuane, which is interesting.

 

Anyway, to me there is more chance of Lanfear not being Cyndane then Taim not being a darkfriend :P

[seraphim]

Taim being a darkfriend simply seems too obvious. It would go against the entire flow the books have gone so far. I think it will simply turn out to Taim being an unscrupulous and ambitious douchebag. However not evil or a darkfriend per se. Simply an unpleasant character and his assassination attempt on Rand had less to do with helping the DO than it was an attempted powergrab for personal glory and vanity.

 

And Logain will turn out to be the darkfriend or he will be turned by the Black Ajah. His glory being leading the armies of dreadlords.

 

I use to post stuff along those lines as well. Get ready for everyone to claim Logain is definitely not a darkfriend and that Taim is.

 

Okay not everyone but a few. All the information does seem to point to Taim being shadow and Logain being light but hey their is a chance that it might not turn out that way.

 

I think Logain is full of himself and I can't understand why he is so liked. Is it because he described as being powerful and good looking?  What has he really done to warrant the support he gets as a character?

 

I think Logain is liked and more accepted as being for the light due to the bonded AS POV's as well as his own manner towards others.  Yes, he is arrogant, in his mind he holds not only his abilities, the history of his accomplishments, but also his social status as a noble, albeit a minor one. However, he treats the AS better than would be expected considering what they were up to, some of them with mutual respect, and I believe he was the one who thought to bond sisters instead of killing them.(not sure)

He is also the one who talks down the other men at the BT who are not Taim's hand-picked few.  He stands before them in a true leadership role just like we see the great captains--reassuring his men, bolstering their spirits, treating them with respect and promising them he will see them cared for properly. 

He also heads to Rand- not for his own glory- but because Taim's actions at the BT make him sure that even if Taim isn't black, he is planning a coup to replace Rand. 

[Barid Bel Medar]

Taim being a darkfriend simply seems too obvious. It would go against the entire flow the books have gone so far. I think it will simply turn out to Taim being an unscrupulous and ambitious douchebag. However not evil or a darkfriend per se. Simply an unpleasant character and his assassination attempt on Rand had less to do with helping the DO than it was an attempted powergrab for personal glory and vanity.

 

And Logain will turn out to be the darkfriend or he will be turned by the Black Ajah. His glory being leading the armies of dreadlords.

 

I use to post stuff along those lines as well. Get ready for everyone to claim Logain is definitely not a darkfriend and that Taim is.

 

Okay not everyone but a few. All the information does seem to point to Taim being shadow and Logain being light but hey their is a chance that it might not turn out that way.

 

I think Logain is full of himself and I can't understand why he is so liked. Is it because he described as being powerful and good looking?  What has he really done to warrant the support he gets as a character?

 

I think Logain is liked and more accepted as being for the light due to the bonded AS POV's as well as his own manner towards others.  Yes, he is arrogant, in his mind he holds not only his abilities, the history of his accomplishments, but also his social status as a noble, albeit a minor one. However, he treats the AS better than would be expected considering what they were up to, some of them with mutual respect, and I believe he was the one who thought to bond sisters instead of killing them.(not sure)

He is also the one who talks down the other men at the BT who are not Taim's hand-picked few.  He stands before them in a true leadership role just like we see the great captains--reassuring his men, bolstering their spirits, treating them with respect and promising them he will see them cared for properly. 

He also heads to Rand- not for his own glory- but because Taim's actions at the BT make him sure that even if Taim isn't black, he is planning a coup to replace Rand. 

Exactly, as far as im concerned. Logain shows genuine concern for those he has bonded and Rand himself. Yeah, he is arrogant, but hell, half of the characters in the book are. Rand is more so, but most of us love him. I also  like Cadsuane, and shes the same.

 

Its all about their motives, so far, Logain has done things for the greater good, jeez, he lands in a nest of vipers (Black Tower) and organizes an active resistance against Taim who he thinks is a DF or worse. Then goes to seek out and help Rand bring the Black Tower to the Light. I mean, thats pretty damn nice of him. He could just avoid Taim altogether like 90% of the other Ashaman do, but no, he stands up against him.

 

Also, look how he helps Suian, Leane and Min escape from the Tower, he did everything he could, its only because we get PoV from Min and the others that makes him out in a bad light, but looking at his actions, he is arrogant, but stil does the right thing.

[aunt_pol]

 

@ Rembrandt: I for may well attempt to eat ToM if it transpires that Taim is not a DF, and a high ranking one at that.

'Let the Lord of Chaos rule' ?! He didn't pull that out of thin air! And, he's the only non- Forsaken person to refer to the Aiel as 'so-called'.

 

There are no accidents in those books, and there's no way that's a red herring. Taim is either a few thousand yrs old himself, or has spent significant time with at least one Forsaken.

 

'Simple and straightforward', in this context, point to Taim being exactly what he appears to be, (a total wanker) and Logain being fairly ok, really.

[Owayn The Traveller]

We are going to get a Taim PoV in the next book and its going to show he just a frightened little man, who has insecurities about himself and is just acting they way he does to throw a protective barrier around himself. Look what happened the last time he followed he heart, he turned out to not be the Dragon Reborn, he got defeated and captured.

[aunt_pol]

Owayn - please stop, you're freaking me out!

[Owayn The Traveller]

I just think we should all take a moment and consider the possibility that Taim isn't a darkfriend. Sure the evidence is damning but if we based things solely on evidence, well were would we be.

There is a chance Taim is just an outrageous pompous arse.

 

Although there is a higher, more probably and quite likely chance that he is exactly what it says on the tin, a lousy darkfriend.

[Samuel]

I completely agree with OP. I've always thought there is more to Taim than "hurr hurr im an evil dreadlord". Rand isn't the nicest guy, he's always been a prick to Taim.

 

Taim being a darkfriend simply seems too obvious. It would go against the entire flow the books have gone so far. I think it will simply turn out to Taim being an unscrupulous and ambitious douchebag. However not evil or a darkfriend per se. Simply an unpleasant character and his assassination attempt on Rand had less to do with helping the DO than it was an attempted powergrab for personal glory and vanity.

 

And Logain will turn out to be the darkfriend or he will be turned by the Black Ajah. His glory being leading the armies of dreadlords.

Ooh ooh, I agree with this man! Nice theory with Logain. Would be an awesome twist if his glory was sort of "dark".