Oliver or Noal?

[Hemis AlRhoid]

Olver will not be part of the initial 3. The cover art pretty well spells this out. My thought is he will sneak in after them.

[Hemis AlRhoid]

everyone exccept olver knows that you must break the rules to win everyone just doesnt have the heart of break his childish fancy.

 

They know that you have to break the rules of the game to win it they have not made the connection between braking the rules of the game and the pohibitions insisted on by the Finns.

 

Olver has over the course of the books maintained his fascination with the game. According to the adult perspectives, this fascination goes beyond where most children lose interest. This is pointed out repeatedly. It just seems to much of a Chekov's gun to not come into play. Which is why I think he will be the one to make the connection between the games mantra and beating the Finns.

[Padraic_Seebrr]

everyone exccept olver knows that you must break the rules to win everyone just doesnt have the heart of break his childish fancy.

 

They know that you have to break the rules of the game to win it they have not made the connection between braking the rules of the game and the pohibitions insisted on by the Finns.

 

Olver has over the course of the books maintained his fascination with the game. According to the adult perspectives, this fascination goes beyond where most children lose interest. This is pointed out repeatedly. It just seems to much of a Chekov's gun to not come into play. Which is why I think he will be the one to make the connection between the games mantra and beating the Finns.

 

Mat has already made the connection that you need to cheat to win. He says it multiple times. I think that somewhere in there he also makes the connection with the Fire, Iron, and Music.

[CUBAREY]

Mat has already made the connection that you need to cheat to win. He says it multiple times. I think that somewhere in there he also makes the connection with the Fire, Iron, and Music

 

Do not believe so but if you can point to a spcific passage I would cncede the point.

 

 

Olver has over the course of the books maintained his fascination with the game. According to the adult perspectives, this fascination goes beyond where most children lose interest. This is pointed out repeatedly. It just seems to much of a Chekov's gun to not come into play. Which is why I think he will be the one to make the connection between the games mantra and beating the Finns.

 

I think you make a very good point. Not that I believe that he will not make his contribution prior to the three adults going off but I agree he is the key to the others having a eureka moment.

 

 

[Barid Bel Medar]

everyone exccept olver knows that you must break the rules to win everyone just doesnt have the heart of break his childish fancy.

 

They know that you have to break the rules of the game to win it they have not made the connection between braking the rules of the game and the pohibitions insisted on by the Finns.

 

Olver has over the course of the books maintained his fascination with the game. According to the adult perspectives, this fascination goes beyond where most children lose interest. This is pointed out repeatedly. It just seems to much of a Chekov's gun to not come into play. Which is why I think he will be the one to make the connection between the games mantra and beating the Finns.

 

Mat has already made the connection that you need to cheat to win. He says it multiple times. I think that somewhere in there he also makes the connection with the Fire, Iron, and Music.

 

I know that the Fire, Iron etc.. is cheating, but that does not restrict it to just that form of cheating.

 

What I mean is, Mat is seen to go in with 2 others, yes.

 

But with the ToG, the recurring theme is that you have to cheat to win, so olver going in afterwards ( I have listed my reason for Moiraine not putting it in the letter) it would be another form of breaking the rules, which is, ill say again, the recurring theme.

[CUBAREY]

it would be another form of breaking the rules, which is, ill say again, the recurring theme.

 

Except of course that the limitation of three rescuers is not placed by th Finns but by Morraine's prophetc vision which forsaw disaster if the number was anything over three.

[Barid Bel Medar]

it would be another form of breaking the rules, which is, ill say again, the recurring theme.

 

Except of course that the limitation of three rescuers is not placed by th Finns but by Morraine's prophetc vision which forsaw disaster if the number was anything over three.

 

No, she said that mat had to come in with 2 others, said that the party rescuing had to be three, Olver sneaking in afterwards wouldnt be counted as the rescue party. AS i said, i put this in my earlier post, did you read it?

[Duskfire]

In theory Moiraine would only see those who were directly related to her rescue. She told Mat to only bring two others, he is bringing two others. He can't be responsible for anyone else who may enter on their own. I said something similiar in my Perrin theory as well. If Olver were to sneak in afterwards for whatever reason, and he wasn't directly involved with Moiraines rescue, then in theory that wouldn't be breaking what she saw.

[dmanmiller34]

I know that it sounds like they must cheat to Win but I belive that Cheating would be a mistake. WHo says that if you break the rules with them thye will not "Cheat and do some utterly nasty cheating right back. Do njot forget that the finns have the home field advantage.

 

I think that The 3 will go in and leave Oliver outside. He will be playing his game and finally discover a way to win. This will give him a complelling reason to sneak in. I also think that since Oliver is not an adult he will not be held the prescripts that others normally are. I belive that Olver will find Mat And Co. And end up saving everyones lives by making them NOT cheat. There is also the possiblilty of Oliver reoving all of the cheater itmes off the pack horse the night before in an attempt to sabatoge their cheating attmepts but I don't think he would do that.

[Fains nose]

@dmanmiller34,  i agree, i think that could likely happen

[Lambada]

I'd be surprised if Olver went in. I just can't see it happening. To me his character arc will end when he realises how you need to cheat to win the game.

 

On a related note: can someone please change the thread title to Olver. Seeing Oliver just makes it really jarring for me to read!

[Paladin]

Just wondering, but Has Mat actually made the connection between the "Snakes and Foxes" game and the Finn's.

 

Its obvious to the reader but I dont recall Mat mentioning anything along the lines of connecting the two.

 

I think that is where Olver comes in. He and Mat play a game of Snakes and Foxes, Mat makes the connection between the game and the Tower of Ghenjei. He then decides to cheat properly, Takes Thom + Harp for "Music to Dazzle", Noal + Iron ( chains or knives) for "Iron to Bind", Mat + Fire (Aludra's fire sticks maybe?) for "Fire to Blind". I think the rhyme at the begining of the game is specifically to give people instructions on how to beat the Finns. Folklore being passed on and becomming a game etc. 

 

Think Ring a ring a rosies + plague in our own world. Kids play it today and have no idea that it was actually a list of things to do to avoid the plague back in the dark ages.

[Lambada]

Think Ring a ring a rosies + plague in our own world. Kids play it today and have no idea that it was actually a list of things to do to avoid the plague back in the dark ages.

Whilst I agree with what you say generally, this little quote here is false. For one thing, this interpretation didn't come around until 1950's and is generally considered an ill fit for the rhyme.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_a_Ring_o'_Roses#Plague_interpretation

Sorry for being a pedant, but false folklore is something that grates on me :)

 

Back on topic:

Actually, I wonder if Olver will sneak in. The rhyme lists 4 things:

Courage = strengthen

Fire = blind

music = dazzle

iron = bind.

Yet having each person have one of their own, and all share the first one seems slightly awkward to me.

"Thom will do the music, Noal will carry some iron, Matt will make some fire... oh, and they'll all have some courage." See what I mean? Seems a bit out of place. If we could say that Olver will provide courage it matches up better I think. This of course, relies on Olver sneaking in afterwards.

[Val Mickey]

Olver turns up with brandy! Courage all around, boys.

[Padraic_Seebrr]

Just wondering, but Has Mat actually made the connection between the "Snakes and Foxes" game and the Finn's.

 

Its obvious to the reader but I dont recall Mat mentioning anything along the lines of connecting the two.

 

I think that is where Olver comes in. He and Mat play a game of Snakes and Foxes, Mat makes the connection between the game and the Tower of Ghenjei. He then decides to cheat properly, Takes Thom + Harp for "Music to Dazzle", Noal + Iron ( chains or knives) for "Iron to Bind", Mat + Fire (Aludra's fire sticks maybe?) for "Fire to Blind". I think the rhyme at the begining of the game is specifically to give people instructions on how to beat the Finns. Folklore being passed on and becomming a game etc. 

 

Think Ring a ring a rosies + plague in our own world. Kids play it today and have no idea that it was actually a list of things to do to avoid the plague back in the dark ages.

 

I believe its mentioned when Mat and Olver are playing Snakes and Foxes that it made Mat think of the Finns. I think it was in the book where Mat is first going to Salidar? Refresh my memory someone please, been a while since my last re-read.

[Sid]

Olver turns up with brandy! Courage all around, boys.

 

This made me laugh pretty hard

 

 

Also, the connection between Snakes and Foxes and the 'Finns was mentioned obliquely in Moiraine's letter.

[CUBAREY]

No, she said that mat had to come in with 2 others, said that the party rescuing had to be three, Olver sneaking in afterwards wouldnt be counted as the rescue party. AS i said, i put this in my earlier post, did you read it?

 

 

If he comes in later by himself and laterjoins the party or helps the others why would this not violate the Mat plus two limitation. Frnkly  think you are paying semantic games in order to have Olver not be considered a 4th member of the party.

[Val Mickey]

I don't think Bayle knows enough to help Elayne or another AS to Travel to ToG. They might go there by boat/ship/rivercraft. In which case Olver would be left in Caemlynn or at least on the boat.

[Barid Bel Medar]

No, she said that mat had to come in with 2 others, said that the party rescuing had to be three, Olver sneaking in afterwards wouldnt be counted as the rescue party. AS i said, i put this in my earlier post, did you read it?

 

 

If he comes in later by himself and laterjoins the party or helps the others why would this not violate the Mat plus two limitation. Frnkly  think you are paying semantic games in order to have Olver not be considered a 4th member of the party.

 

I never said Olver would be in the rescue party, i just said he would go in. I dont know where your getting this 4th resucer from. I think omething similar to Rand and Mat when they went in at similar times. They never saw each other, but they came out one after the other.

 

So dont make up things that I supposedly said, I sadi nothing of the sort, just that Olver going in afterwards would be another form of cheating.

[lordofsoup]

i thought Moraine said that if 4 went in they would all die?  correct me if I am wrong.

[Barid Bel Medar]

i thought Moraine said that if 4 went in they would all die?  correct me if I am wrong.

 

Your correct. If there were 4 RESCUERS.

 

however, thats not what I was saying, read above post

[CUBAREY]

I never said Olver would be in the rescue party, i just said he would go in. I dont know where your getting this 4th resucer from. I think omething similar to Rand and Mat when they went in at similar times. They never saw each other, but they came out one after the other.

 

 

So you think Olver will sneak in independntly, not join the three others or effect the rescue in any way? What would be the point?

[Luckers]

No, I think he's saying that Moiraine spoke of the three rescuers going in together, and that therefore Olver later sneaking in on his own and joining them may not violate Moiraine's three requirement.

 

That doesn't seem iplausible to me.

[seraphim]

everyone exccept olver knows that you must break the rules to win everyone just doesnt have the heart of break his childish fancy.

 

They know that you have to break the rules of the game to win it they have not made the connection between braking the rules of the game and the pohibitions insisted on by the Finns.

 

My memory may be dimmed but everyone is basing the prohibitions/rules on the POV's of those going through the door frames.  The TofG must be breached to enter, either by force or magic or arcane knowledge. If you slip in, break in, or B. fire a hole in the side of the tower, will a guide be waiting on the other side to ask you about the agreement?   

[CUBAREY]

If you slip in, break in, or B. fire a hole in the side of the tower, will a guide be waiting on the other side to ask you about the agreement?   

 

Well there were guides waiting at the gates even though it had been years sne ayon used them. Why would guides not be posted near the other entrance?