The Two Must Be As One

[yoniy0]

Still, Rand's going to Tear wouldn't have mattered if he wasn't able to grab the sword. And Verin didn't tell anyone that only 4 will come back, or that Rand will proclaim himself the Dragon Reborn in that little trip, and yet it still happened.

[Duskfire]

Still, Rand's going to Tear wouldn't have mattered if he wasn't able to grab the sword. And Verin didn't tell anyone that only 4 will come back, or that Rand will proclaim himself the Dragon Reborn in that little trip, and yet it still happened.

 

But the original part that lead to everything else was still self-fullfilling. The above examples never would have happened if someone hadn't decided for them to happen, thus the self-fulfilling part. Its not like Rand read that he needed to be morally blind in order to go to Dragonmount and solve his problem; that obviously isn't one example. But Rand deciding he needed to go to Tear in order to retrieve Callandor and declare himself the DR is.

 

Not all prophecies are self-fullfing, just some. I am merely arguing that fulfilling a prophecy on your own terms doesn't neccessarily make it incorrect or unprophetic (is that even a word?)

[grayring]

Still, Rand's going to Tear wouldn't have mattered if he wasn't able to grab the sword. And Verin didn't tell anyone that only 4 will come back, or that Rand will proclaim himself the Dragon Reborn in that little trip, and yet it still happened.

 

But the original part that lead to everything else was still self-fullfilling. The above examples never would have happened if someone hadn't decided for them to happen, thus the self-fulfilling part. Its not like Rand read that he needed to be morally blind in order to go to Dragonmount and solve his problem; that obviously isn't one example. But Rand deciding he needed to go to Tear in order to retrieve Callandor and declare himself the DR is.

 

Not all prophecies are self-fullfing, just some. I am merely arguing that fulfilling a prophecy on your own terms doesn't neccessarily make it incorrect or unprophetic (is that even a word?)

 

The simplest way to end this is to point out that nowhere does it say how the prophecies have to be fulfilled, only that they have to be fulfilled.

[Val Mickey]

The two must be as one... Isn't that a hamburger?

[Thor]

Exactly; Rand knew he had to go to the Stone of Tear to get Callandor out. It wasn't the Pattern forcing him to do it by chance, he read it and decided to do it to answer whether he was the Dragon Reborn once and for all. So thats another example of a self-fulfilled prophecy. Then theres the Falme one; Verin told everyone about the five heading off, no one knew anything about it. And because of that only five decided to go. Another self-fulfilled prophecy. There is quite a few of them in the series; Min has like a billion of them, things that wouldn't happen if she didn't tell the person what she saw in their aura.

 

 

 

The prophecy was not that he would take the stone of tear. The prophecy was 'the stone will not fall until the people of the dragon comes'. Rand did not fufill the prophecy, the Aiel did.

 

The thursting of callandor did not fufill anything.

[Duskfire]

Exactly; Rand knew he had to go to the Stone of Tear to get Callandor out. It wasn't the Pattern forcing him to do it by chance, he read it and decided to do it to answer whether he was the Dragon Reborn once and for all. So thats another example of a self-fulfilled prophecy. Then theres the Falme one; Verin told everyone about the five heading off, no one knew anything about it. And because of that only five decided to go. Another self-fulfilled prophecy. There is quite a few of them in the series; Min has like a billion of them, things that wouldn't happen if she didn't tell the person what she saw in their aura.

 

 

 

The prophecy was not that he would take the stone of tear. The prophecy was 'the stone will not fall until the people of the dragon comes'. Rand did not fufill the prophecy, the Aiel did.

 

The thursting of callandor did not fufill anything.

 

"One of the Prophecies says that the Stone of Tear will never fall until the People of the Dragon come to the Stone. Another says the Stone will never fall till the Sword That Cannot Be Touched is wielded by the Dragon's hand."

 

So the second part was fulfilled by Rand by him specifically going to Tear to find out if he was truly the Dragon Reborn or not. That is as self-fulfilling as you can get. As far as the Aiel, then going to Tear was also self-fullfing. They never went their by chance or by fortunte or some twisting of fate; they went there specifically to seek out Rand.

[yoniy0]

As far as the Aiel, then going to Tear was also self-fullfing. They never went their by chance or by fortunte or some twisting of fate; they went there specifically to seek out Rand.

You go too far. They went there because they got a tip Rand'll be in Tear, but they were seeking the car'a'carn, not the Dragon Reborn. And they had no intention of enabling his taking of the Stone, they were just searching for him. Only Rhuarc among them even knew of the name 'People of the Dragon', and it's doubtful whether he put much store in Randland prophecies anyways.

[DocBean]

The thursting of callandor did not fufill anything.

 

Rand interpreted one of the prophesies that said something like "he thrust Callendor into the Heart to capture their hearts... Who shall pull that sword and follow after..."

Rand took that to mean he needed to stab Callendor into the Heart of the Stone of Tear so that the people would wait for his return.

He also believes that means Narishma will be the one who follows after.

 

I believe we've yet to see that prophecy fulfilled.

[Demiandre]

Thor, the Prophecies shall be fulfilled. If it is self fulfilled or not is pointless, as long as they are.

And the Aiel didn't really know they had to go to Tear, as shown by Perris discussion with Gaul. He adviced him to look for him there. And only Clan Chief know the name of "People of the Dragon". So the Aiels didn't really know they had to go to Tear. And they finally went there in time as Rand was climbing the Stone to prove to himself that he truly was the DR.

 

This is a self-fulfilled prophecy.

 

This is the same with the thrusting of Callandor. He interpreted the meaning and did what he thought it meant. As they have to be fulfilled, this became the prophecy. He could have thrust Callandor on the top of Dragonmount, the Pattern would have bent to make it fulfilled. As Rand is Ta'veren, I think it is plausible. (That reminds me of something Taim said about that when he first met Rand.... I'll have to check that)

 

Falme is another sel fulfilled prophecy. Verin made it being fulfilled.

 

But then, it could be the Pattern that makes it all. It would make sense and justify Egwene saying Elaida that all her attempt were pointless as the Karaethon Cycle shall be completed.

 

Then, here is a question : does the Pattern drive Rand along the Prophecy, or is it Rand that pulls the Pattern around him to fulfill the Prophecies?

[Barid Bel Medar]

Everyone seems to be forgetting, or conviently ignoring the fact that RAND WENT TO THE STONE TO PULL OUT CALLENDOR.

 

the Stone  will never fall till the Sword That Cannot Be Touched is wielded by the Dragon's hand."

 

Rand knew what he was doing, he knew what the prophecies meant, so it was intentional.

 

Also another that seems convieniently forgotten

 

He "shall slay his people with the sword of peace, and destroy them with the leaf."

 

He went into Rhuidean and saw his ancestors past, he didnt know that would happen, and that was self fullfiliing yes, but he had read the prophecies, and thus decided that telling the Aiel about this past, he fulfilled it.

 

Now, I am not saying Rand is always right in his interpretation, and it may be that the thrusting of callendor is not that particular fulfillment, but NOT ALL of the prophecies are self-fllfilled in ignorance, the two cheif examples above.

 

So, I take all of the arguments about ALL the propchies having ot be fulfilled in ignorance invaid and void until someone adressess the two points above and explains how that was fulfilled in ignorance. Then, Ill believe.

[nolirion]

like I said prophecies are fulfilled because otherwise Rand will be dead the Do will rule and all will be lost .

 

 

If you recall the first trip using the portal stone when Rand saw all the road not taken , and where all of them lead to destruction and the victory of the Do .

 

In each of them Rand Fight the DO but he fail .

The prophecies are nearly the map of the futur full of hole