Galad and Gawyn confusion...

[Demiandre]

I certainly know that I wouldn't be so driven into a decision. I'm a woolheaded man who can teach mules to be stubborn, but if peoples say me that what I believe is false, I always try to understand their point of view and see if it changes anything. This is my way of dealing problems. But he constantly avoid advice and statements to fulfill his revenge. I wouldn't. But his need of revenge is understandable.

 

Galad doesn't have that Pattern-scale dilemma to deal with. He understood he shouldn't follow the White Tower to unroll in an organisation in which sound principles he believes. Galad had Luther Mantelar's book for making his opinion. Gawyn has rumors. Wind. Nothing. Air vetwzen his two ears...

 

And unlawful unsitting, as Aldric has been murdered without Siuan being shielded, a handful of Sitter standing in total secrecy in the Hall. The Warder just defended the Tower Law. One faithful to the raisef Amyrlin, however lawfully she was raised, and others Siuan, as they felt Elaida's election wasn't lawful. They made their choice on the Battlefield. And Gawyn helped Siuan go free, but was fighting FOR Elaida... He cha nged many sides

[yoniy0]

a) How you normally operate is not necessarily how you would upon hearing that your mother is dead, murdered.

b) I believe that you're mistaken. The absolute minimum of required Sitters were present at Siuan's deposing, correct, but it is allowed under Tower Law. Aelric's murder is a different story, but that doesn't render Siuan's deposing unlawful.

c) Gawyn aided Siuan in escaping with her life, not in undoing an act of the Hall. Elaida would certainly frown upon what he did, yet he was under no contradictory orders. And he did what he did as a favor to Min, which doesn't justify it but does constitute extenuating circumstances.

d) Yeah, the Whitecloacks are a better fit for Galad. Still, not a perfect one (he would not condone his mother and sister's execution, for example), and they have become quite corrupt, as he should have been aware (yet he wasn't). Nevertheless, I'm not questioning his character.

[Senexx]

For what it is worth, I frequently mix up the two characters.  It has been easier in the last few books since passages about them were a bit closer together and they were doing extremely different things.

[rhadamanthus]

You guys contradict yourselves. Galad is a man of convictions because he bailed on a sinking ship? When he had obligations to meet there?

Gawyn does not have a history of switching loyalties on a whim. He did that only ONCE, when he abandoned the Younglings.

 

This is true, and I made it a point not to label him a "flip-flopper".  He is not.  He is the opposite - so resolute in his loyalty and his duties that he has no firm convictions of his own.  He's a tool.

 

Galad is a man of convictions because he decided that his ideology was better served and could better serve elsewhere.  Obviously, joining the whitecloaks ain't exactly a step in the right direction, but in principle it fit him rather well.  And, as part of that principle, he has taken steps to guide them correctly after discerning their leadership was not adhering to the published aims (aiding elayne and nyn, killing Valda and deciding to join with AS for TG etc).

 

Gawyn has NONE of those character traits.  He just does what he is told, and justifies it via "duty".  A tool.

[yoniy0]

He allowed himself to be made into a tool by Elaida (though he kept a measure of self, in aiding both Min and Egwene), true enough. Now he's trying to make amends. We'll have to wait and see how that goes.

[Duskfire]

Also I wouldnt be surprised if Egwene falling for Gawyn is part of a self-fulfilling prophecy. She saw that she was meant to love him and whatnot, so she does. Same with Mat really; its arguable he would have had anything to do with Tuon if he didn't know of him needing to marry her.

[yoniy0]

I'll buy that regarding Mat (boys will sometimes fall for a woman if they spend a lot of time with her), but when did Egwene see that she's supposed to end up with Gawyn? By the time she was trapped in his dream (and saw how he felt about her) she was already into him (otherwise she wouldn't get trapped).

[Duskfire]

I'll buy that regarding Mat (boys will sometimes fall for a woman if they spend a lot of time with her), but when did Egwene see that she's supposed to end up with Gawyn? By the time she was trapped in his dream (and saw how he felt about her) she was already into him (otherwise she wouldn't get trapped).

 

Her being trapped happened the chapter before she had the prophecied dreams about him, so I suppose your right. Her affections for him seemed to come on really fast to me, although I guess that could happen in real life too.

[DemandredFO]

I would love to know if Gawyn just is that stupid(probably) or if that peddler that told him his mother was dead was just a peddler.  By his actions in the coup we clearly see that he can be that stupid; Andor will really be ill-served if he ends up as first prince.  I really hope Galad doesn't self-destruct over killing Valda and then finding Morgase alive.

[Hadilmir]

I really hope Galad doesn't self-destruct over killing Valda and then finding Morgase alive.

I doubt it, Morgase can testify to him that Valda needed killing. Combine that with what Valda said during their duel and Galad will feel bad, but accept it.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

I think the general consensus is that Gawyn is a dumb fool, who while being well-meaning and an honest lad; is possibly the loosest cannon on the "Light side," helping the shadow more than most darkfriends could hope to achieve in a lifetime.

 

Whereas Galad is simply a man of principles almost to a fault. Refusing to get manipulated, but also having convictions stronger than the toughest cuendillars. Convictions that will break before they ever bend. Which might be his downfall, in a typical Greek tragic hero type manner.

[Thor]

I would love to know if Gawyn just is that stupid(probably) or if that peddler that told him his mother was dead was just a peddler.  By his actions in the coup we clearly see that he can be that stupid; Andor will really be ill-served if he ends up as first prince.  I really hope Galad doesn't self-destruct over killing Valda and then finding Morgase alive.

 

Valda raped Morgase, so Morgase being alive doesn't really change anything.

 

I don't understand how it is possible for Gawyn to be that stupid at all, you'd think that Gareth Bryne would have trained him better to be Andor's first prince of the sword. There's a saying, 'no manners is father's fault, no discipline is teacher's laziness' (horribly translated btw).

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

I would love to know if Gawyn just is that stupid(probably) or if that peddler that told him his mother was dead was just a peddler.  By his actions in the coup we clearly see that he can be that stupid; Andor will really be ill-served if he ends up as first prince.  I really hope Galad doesn't self-destruct over killing Valda and then finding Morgase alive.

 

Valda raped Morgase, so Morgase being alive doesn't really change anything.

 

I don't understand how it is possible for Gawyn to be that stupid at all, you'd think that Gareth Bryne would have trained him better to be Andor's first prince of the sword. There's a saying, 'no manners is father's fault, no discipline is teacher's laziness' (horribly translated btw).

 

 

Perhaps Gawyn is just naturally weak. Some men were meant to be leaders: Rand, Galad, Matt, etc.. and some are clearly way over their heads and downright incapable of "longterm" leadership: Gawyn for example.

[Jillain Sanche]

Yeah pretty good. He only managed to help play an associative role in the kidnapping and torture of the Dragon Reborn. Then attempt to waylay and destroy forces coming to his rescue. This is after he personally slew the man who taught him how to fight and was "as a father to him." To make matters worse he fantasizes about brutally murdering the Dragon Reborn who is the only hope for human salvation and deliverance from the Dark One.

                                    .    .    .

 

eventually he'll be put out of his misery before he creates even more chaos, destruction and victories for the shadow. Probably by the hand of Galad in an emotional fraternal struggle to the death, as is befitting the Arthurian tales their names are based on.

 

It does make me wonder if events will bring the two into conflict over Rand et al.

 

My questions are: Will Gawyn go on to sow further chaos, do great damage, despite Egwene's influence?

Will Galad be the one to stop him?

and

Will Galad clean up and reorganize the Whitecloaks based on his principles, once all the leading sinister commanding officers are dead or in retreat?

 

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

Yeah pretty good. He only managed to help play an associative role in the kidnapping and torture of the Dragon Reborn. Then attempt to waylay and destroy forces coming to his rescue. This is after he personally slew the man who taught him how to fight and was "as a father to him." To make matters worse he fantasizes about brutally murdering the Dragon Reborn who is the only hope for human salvation and deliverance from the Dark One.

                                    .    .    .

 

eventually he'll be put out of his misery before he creates even more chaos, destruction and victories for the shadow. Probably by the hand of Galad in an emotional fraternal struggle to the death, as is befitting the Arthurian tales their names are based on.

 

It does make me wonder if events will bring the two into conflict over Rand et al.

 

My questions are: Will Gawyn go on to sow further chaos, do great damage, despite Egwene's influence?

Will Galad be the one to stop him?

and

Will Galad clean up and reorganize the Whitecloaks based on his principles, once all the leading sinister commanding officers are dead or in retreat?

 

 

 

I think Galad will transform the Whitecloaks from a Spanish Inquistition type Order into a Teutonic Knights/Knights Templar/Knights Hospitaller type Order. Just my guess.

[DaughterOfNight]

Egwene falls for Gawyn when she sees his dreams of slaying Rand and rescuing her from him.  Makes a lot of sense doesn't it?  It should be intuitively obvious that Egwene is subconsciously attracted to narcissistic, deranged and demented loons with no odium of sanity.  Gawyn is a hopeless lout that was interjected into the story because somebody has to be the idiot who gets everything wrong.

 

I would like someone to attempt to explain how Egwene can feel anything but contempt, loathing and pity for him though?  Remember this though: She has seen Gawyn's motivations (killing Rand) and supposedly loves Rand as a brother yet has no problem with this knowledge of Gawyn and indeed despite this knowledge comes to love him?  Please!  Good luck expalining yourself with this disaster.  Gawyn has no redeeming qualities and the only way he can redeem himself is to just die a well and gruesome death and even still he'll be an idiot to the 9th degree.

 

Ha! Good point...

[DaughterOfNight]

I just want to add that Gawyn was under pressure because of several oaths he made. The first to Elayne, the second to the White Tower and the third to Egwene. He tried to keep them all. Siuan did what she had to do and partially broke her oath toward Bryne to cpncentrate on the one she set on herself re:Rand. Hopefully Gawyn will be less dumb in the future as he finally chose a side. He found his place so to say. Galad, however, understood the White Tower couldn't be trusted and joined the Whitecloaks. But both had the same Oedipe they couldn't overcome and Gawyn was crushed with this, even wanting to put the Pattern in danger. Very silly...

 

Another good point! =)

 

[Fains nose]

Gawyn is a tool, hes been trained his whole life to be a tool for his sister and andor, then he transfered his tooliness to the white tower and the younglings. The convo he had with gareth bryne in TGS showed this, they were talking about gawyns talent with the sword, and who he should give himself to. He needs to become his own man and do something for himself.

[DaughterOfNight]

For what it is worth, I frequently mix up the two characters.  It has been easier in the last few books since passages about them were a bit closer together and they were doing extremely different things.

 

YES! Thank you for posting this because it's exactly why I asked this question/created this topic in the first place.  I think I'm just going to have to comb through the books again so I can cite specific references that contribute to my confusion -- but seriously, I have re-read the chapters involving Egwene/Galad/Gawyn just to see where I got them mixed up.  And even after reading them carefully, I was still confused.  Like I said, I'm useless and shouldn't even bother posting things on this forum because I can almost never remember specific details or where I read them...

 

Anyway, I really wish I could find what I'm looking for right now.  I understand what everyone has said in this thread regarding Egwene's attraction to the men but I seriously think that RJ got the two guys mixed up on a page or two.  UGH, not remembering is killing me.  One tidbit I'm kind of remembering is when Egwene dreamed of Galad as well as when she and Galad were ran into each other in Somara.  Then it seemed like the next time we read Egwene's POV, she is all over Gawyn with no transition in between.  And from then, it flip-flops a little bit.

 

Ok, I'm totally talking out of my arse with this, I know, and I'm sorry.  I promise that, not that anyone cares a lick haha, that I will find what I am talking about -- soon.  All I'm trying to say is that I swear I've re-read these parts only to clarify and un-confuse myself but end up being confused even more.  I really think RJ mixed their names up in a sentence or two, even though it didn't really affect the story arcs or anything.

 

I shouldn't even post this... haha... if you read this far, sorry to waste your time!

 

:)

[yoniy0]

OMG you guys, why does everybody insist that Gawyn's reaction is so out of the normal spectrum of human emotions?

Say your dad is your Head of State (president/PM/chairman/whatever you call that). You go abroad for several years, and then you meet someone from your home country telling you that it's general knowledge back home that your father's dead, he has been murdered by someone you know. Everyone you meet confirms the murder, but some of your mutual acquaintances claim the perpetrator was a different man (and they can offer no proof). Is it really SO out of norm to believe they're mistaken? Would you have stopped and calmly considered all the possibilities if it were your parent?

 

Geez, I just wish someone will recognize that what Gawyn does is perfectly normal. Woolheaded, maybe, but normal. The crazy one is Egwene. Why not tell him the truth, that Rahvin was Gabriel, that Rand launched a strike the day after he learned what happend to Morgase?

[DaughterOfNight]

 

Her being trapped happened the chapter before she had the prophecied dreams about him, so I suppose your right. Her affections for him seemed to come on really fast to me, although I guess that could happen in real life too.

 

That's what I'm saying... it seemed like her attraction came from left field (aside from the dreams) and there was hardly any story to justify her instant and unwavering love for him.

[DaughterOfNight]

 

A few of you have a good point about Gawyn being pulled in many directions because of his oaths.  Now I wonder what's going to happen when it comes time for him to go to his sister's side as First Prince because he's all wrapped up in Egwene at the moment.  I'm curious as to whether he's going to have to face a tough choice between his sister and his love -- and ultimately who will suffer because of his choice. 

 

He told Gareth that he was going to scoop Egwene up and take her to Caemlyn so he can keep his eye on both his sister and Egwene.  Now that he is realizing that isn't going to happen, now what?

[Demiandre]

@yoniy0

 

He has neither proof for Rand being the murderer nor anybody else. He can't have proof. She's not dead... I never said it was abnormal, but you have to question yourself sometimes, and paeticularly when people you trust say you you're wrong. Trusting a peddler and random stranger ans not believing Egwene is one of the stupidity that makes me want to kick his bottom...

 

@DaughterofNight

 

It's Nynaeve in Somara. Not Egwene. You switch them too? Next time you'll make a thred "Rand and Mat confusion" ;D

[torrente]

I can't imagine a pretty man so I just imagine Galad to look like Brad Pitt.  ;)

[Thor]

 

A few of you have a good point about Gawyn being pulled in many directions because of his oaths.  Now I wonder what's going to happen when it comes time for him to go to his sister's side as First Prince because he's all wrapped up in Egwene at the moment.  I'm curious as to whether he's going to have to face a tough choice between his sister and his love -- and ultimately who will suffer because of his choice. 

 

He told Gareth that he was going to scoop Egwene up and take her to Caemlyn so he can keep his eye on both his sister and Egwene.  Now that he is realizing that isn't going to happen, now what?

 

Egwene has prophesised this.  He needs to choose between Andor or stay with Egwene.  And one of the paths will get him killed.