What's In The Future For Graendal?

[Fains nose]

I think Aran'Gar is a wildcard who is gonna do something cool. Anyone else with me?

[Thor]

Sammael had nothing to fear of Rand though. If not for Morridin, Rand would have died.

 

That still doesn't change what he did wasn't exactly incredibly smart. Directly disobeying the Dark One could be seen as a bit idiotic :P

 

It doesn't matter. If he succeeded, he would have accomplished something Ishamael could not even do in the aol. Success overrules disobedience of protocol.

[OptimusPrime]

Sammael had nothing to fear of Rand though. If not for Morridin, Rand would have died.

 

That still doesn't change what he did wasn't exactly incredibly smart. Directly disobeying the Dark One could be seen as a bit idiotic :P

 

It doesn't matter. If he succeeded, he would have accomplished something Ishamael could not even do in the aol. Success overrules disobedience of protocol.

 

Ishamael isnt trying to kill Rand. Hes trying to make him destroy the Pattern. Sammael killing Rand at Shadar Logoth wouldnt be a victory for the Shadow, it would mean the Dark One stays imprisoned for another turning.

[Vermillion]

Sammael had nothing to fear of Rand though. If not for Morridin, Rand would have died.

 

That still doesn't change what he did wasn't exactly incredibly smart. Directly disobeying the Dark One could be seen as a bit idiotic :P

 

It doesn't matter. If he succeeded, he would have accomplished something Ishamael could not even do in the aol. Success overrules disobedience of protocol.

 

Ishamael isnt trying to kill Rand. Hes trying to make him destroy the Pattern. Sammael killing Rand at Shadar Logoth wouldnt be a victory for the Shadow, it would mean the Dark One stays imprisoned for another turning.

 

I don't think he is trying to make him destroy the pattern just not prevent the DO from escaping. 

[Thor]

Sammael had nothing to fear of Rand though. If not for Morridin, Rand would have died.

 

That still doesn't change what he did wasn't exactly incredibly smart. Directly disobeying the Dark One could be seen as a bit idiotic :P

 

It doesn't matter. If he succeeded, he would have accomplished something Ishamael could not even do in the aol. Success overrules disobedience of protocol.

 

Ishamael isnt trying to kill Rand. Hes trying to make him destroy the Pattern. Sammael killing Rand at Shadar Logoth wouldnt be a victory for the Shadow, it would mean the Dark One stays imprisoned for another turning.

 

Killing rand would mean that the world falls under the shadow's rule. It means that when the dragon is reborn again, he can be easily turned. Killing rand means victory for the dark one ultimately.

[farthammer]

Where do you get all that from?

[Vermillion]

Sammael had nothing to fear of Rand though. If not for Morridin, Rand would have died.

 

That still doesn't change what he did wasn't exactly incredibly smart. Directly disobeying the Dark One could be seen as a bit idiotic :P

 

It doesn't matter. If he succeeded, he would have accomplished something Ishamael could not even do in the aol. Success overrules disobedience of protocol.

 

Ishamael isnt trying to kill Rand. Hes trying to make him destroy the Pattern. Sammael killing Rand at Shadar Logoth wouldnt be a victory for the Shadow, it would mean the Dark One stays imprisoned for another turning.

 

Killing rand would mean that the world falls under the shadow's rule. It means that when the dragon is reborn again, he can be easily turned. Killing rand means victory for the dark one ultimately.

 

I don't think that's the case.  I don't think killing Rand is possible either which is why they try to turn him first.  There are elements that seem to have to be meet for DO to break free.

[OptimusPrime]

Sammael had nothing to fear of Rand though. If not for Morridin, Rand would have died.

 

That still doesn't change what he did wasn't exactly incredibly smart. Directly disobeying the Dark One could be seen as a bit idiotic :P

 

It doesn't matter. If he succeeded, he would have accomplished something Ishamael could not even do in the aol. Success overrules disobedience of protocol.

 

Ishamael isnt trying to kill Rand. Hes trying to make him destroy the Pattern. Sammael killing Rand at Shadar Logoth wouldnt be a victory for the Shadow, it would mean the Dark One stays imprisoned for another turning.

 

Killing rand would mean that the world falls under the shadow's rule. It means that when the dragon is reborn again, he can be easily turned. Killing rand means victory for the dark one ultimately.

 

You're acting like Rand must survive for the Shadow to not win. That is not the case, and the books make that very clear.

 

What I think is that this time is a very, very good effort on the Shadows part, that boiling down to the Rand-Moridin connection. Ive spouted the side about Rands will and Moridins personality enough, but I think theres more to it than even all that. I think Rand and Moridins threads are merging, meaning if Rand were to die a "normal" death, the Dark One could catch his soul, channel a ton of the True Power through his soul which would turn Rand into a hollow less-than-half-human, more than half Shadowspawn replica of the CoL, and he would break the Pattern that way.

 

So Rand either has to sort out that connection before or during the part where he dies. Its kinda like the Shadow are there saying "You need to die to fulfill you're role, and we're prepared for that." Shame that preparation is what Rand will use to survive.

[Sharaman]

There are many ways to look at this.

Consider

1) If all the GLoD needed was time to break free, he wouldn't have asked his Chosen and their minions to stir up trouble. He could have just told them to hang around and lie low. In this case, he could have gradually weakened the Seals and eventually busted out, got free without being noticed.

 

2) Since he has instructed his Chosen to let the LoC rule, time is not the only thing GLoD needs. There's some metaphysical conditions that must be fulfilled for GLoD to be completely freed. Perhaps, the Seals cannot be fully smashed without the cooperation of the soul that placed them. Perhaps, the world needs to be a dirtier, more evil and chaotic place before GLoD has enough leverage and a turned or insane DR is the best way to accelerate that process of making the world a darker place.

 

In some way, GLoD does want the DR around - his actions and instructions make that clear. In a very reluctant worst case scenario, he's prepared to allow the DR to be killed but he would much prefer the DR alive.

 

Why and how is a plot element that's unlikely to be revealed until very late into the endgame.

 

[OptimusPrime]

There are many ways to look at this.

Consider

1) If all the GLoD needed was time to break free, he wouldn't have asked his Chosen and their minions to stir up trouble. He could have just told them to hang around and lie low. In this case, he could have gradually weakened the Seals and eventually busted out, got free without being noticed.

 

See, I think the Pattern, existence as Randlanders know it, IS the Dark Ones prison. I think this is possibly backed up by Moridin telling Rand that killing the Dark One is a stupid thing to think about; doing so rids existence of its purpose. I think Moridin might reveal this at the end, convince Rand that killing the Dark One means the Creator doesnt need this construct anymore, that the Pattern needs something to hold back in order to keep existing. (Possibly followed by Moridin saying "Wait, killing DO ends the war" and Rand says "Exactly" and fools Moridin by promising to still kill DO). Imagine the Pattern as a shield on the Dark One, a mountain in comparison to the pebble of what channelers use to shield each other. If Rand shielded Moridin for example, and then Moridin died, and Rand had discovered by then that the threads he wove were alive and had feelings, surely the shield would diminish. But even if it didnt, would Rand continue to channel that shield just so the weaves could live on? I personally dont think he would.

 

In an interview RJ likened the Wheel to a kind of sentient computer system, that makes me imagine it can sense the power and influence of the entity it is holding back, detect any anomolies and calculate both what is needed to rectify the problem and at exactly-EXACTLY-when the solution is needed. Hence, whatever happens, whatever theories we dream up about the what the Dark One needs or could do to escape, the Wheel will always have the smallest detail in place, be it Rand possessing past life memories to remind him why he fought, or Padan Fain showing up at the end and providing a weapon for whoever to stab a physical manifestation of the Dark One with the ruby dagger, or Min filing her nails near Rand and Moridin fighting and wind gusting a bit of the nailfilings up Moridins nose and thus making Moridin sneeze just when hes about to deliver the killing blow. Short version, however and whenever the Dark One intends to do what he needs to, when the time comes for him to enter the world, the solution has already been set up. Entering the world isnt enough, they need to stop Rands Taverenism working against them, it is the only thing that can be used against the Pattern effectively. Even then though, the Horn of Valere is never blown by the CoL himself, which is why I think the Horn is supposed to be a weapon designed to be able to defeat the CoL should he turn Dark.

 

Also I dont think that Shai'tan simply entering the world is him breaking free, because the world itself is the Pattern in my theory. He is outside the Pattern, but to be free of it, he needs to enter it first (You cant channel the True Power without the ability to channel the True Source, Shai'tan needs a channeler to inhabit) and only then-from within the Pattern-can he destroy it, and doing so will sacrifice any shadowy parts of himself left inside the Pattern/CoL/anything else as a well worth it price.

 

2) Since he has instructed his Chosen to let the LoC rule, time is not the only thing GLoD needs. There's some metaphysical conditions that must be fulfilled for GLoD to be completely freed. Perhaps, the Seals cannot be fully smashed without the cooperation of the soul that placed them. Perhaps, the world needs to be a dirtier, more evil and chaotic place before GLoD has enough leverage and a turned or insane DR is the best way to accelerate that process of making the world a darker place.

 

Im more in favor of this option, parts of it. The metaphysics (hate that word) are the key. I wonder... that if for example the Dark One could put a shadowy part of himself in Rand at the end, but during the process Rand was killed together with the Shadowy Part of the Dark One trying to take over his thread, I wonder if the Dark One tried that the time before Lewis, lost the portion of strength that was the Shadowy Part of Himself, and that is why his strength is growing, he is recovering from the events that took place a full cycle ago, the CoL incarnation before Lewis.

 

That post went on for much longer than I thought, and I cant even remember how we got from Graendal to the Wheel of Time Worldbuilding Elements. Great discussion though.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Back to the Future... err I mean Graendal.

 

I see a couple of problems with the theories expressed where she is concerned:

 

1.  Yes, she's smart, but so is Rand.  Nobody gives Rand any credit for being able to think.

2.  Balefire destroys things before the time at which it strikes them.

 

Rand has every reason to believe that Graendal will Compel good ole Ramalamadingdong and learn everything he's been told, so Rand is very careful about exactly what he says, revealing nothing that he isn't willing for Graendal to learn.  He expects her to Compel ole Rammy, learn everything he's been told, and he expects her to run.  Because he's going to use Balefire to kill her, he knows that her attempt to flee will be futile.

 

How so?

 

Because he's going to use the Choeden Kal.  Between his own strength and all the extra wattage the CK will provide, he's going to hit that fortress with enough Balefire to cause it to cease to exist yesterday.  Or, as close to yesterday as the physics of that much Balefire allow.

 

Recall that Balefire burns backwards through time, destroying not just what is there now, but also what used to be there a second ago, and then the second before that, and the second before that, etc., etc. So long as Graendal was anywhere in that fortress between the time the Balefire struck and the prior time at which the fortress ceased to exist, she gets consumed right along with everything else.  Anything she set in motion, anything she personally did, anything she thought, no longer happened. She actually died before Ramalamadingdong knocked on her door.  Before she knew she had anything to fear.  The only way she could have escaped is if she could travel back through time, and nobody, not even the DO, can do that.

 

Thus, she died.  Utterly and irrevocably.

 

The only way we'll see her again is if Towers of Midnight does overlap with The Gathering Storm and we get to see what she was up to prior to her death.

[Sharaman]

Balefire doesn't work like that as another thread famously said.

If Graendal's thread (and her zaftig corporeal presence) isn't in the fortress at the time when Rand uses the CK, it doesn't matter how far back he erases the fortress. She's done a successful runner.

Proof - Ramshalam himself. He doesn't disappear when the fortress is BF-ed. 

 

[csarmi]

You're contradicting your self, Bob. By your account, Ramshalan should be dead too!

[Bob T Dwarf]

Let's look at the things that are self-evidently true.

 

If you are in a building that gets balefired out of existence at the time it ceases to exist, you die.

If, like Ramalamadingdong, you remember entering and then leaving that building between the time it ceases to exist and the time at which it was struck by balefire, you survive.

 

Why?

 

Because the building wasn't really there at the time you remember arriving, so you never really entered it.  If you never entered, you couldn't have been there during the time it was being destroyed by the balefire.

 

So, to slightly correct what I said above, Graendal could survive IF she returned from someplace right before Ramalamadingdong arrived and then gated away before the balefire struck.  Just like Rammy, she would remember being there even though she really wasn't because the fortress was no longer in existence when she remembered arriving.

 

Balefire, due to how it destroys things, creates two realities.  A potential reality where a set of things could have happened, and an actual reality in which a different set of things did happen.  In the potential reality ( the one where the fortress does not get balefired ) Rammy arrives, has his interview with a disguised Graendal, and is sent on his way with an implanted memory of what occurred.  Graendal then escapes.  In the actual reality ( despite what Rammy's memory says ) the fortress no longer existed when he supposedly arrived.  Since it wasn't really there, he couldn't actually go inside, and the interview with Graendal never really happened.

 

If Graendal was there at the time the fortress ceased to exist, she's dead.  She never really saw Rammy.  She never really learned any of the things Rand told him.  She never really Compelled Rammy and implanted the story he told Rand.  She never really had an opportunity to run.

 

Balefire gets very complicated and messy.  The effect occurs before the cause, and that messes with logic in weird ways.

[yoniy0]

Okay, that's your opinion, and it's legitimate, but could I ask people who disagree to take this discussion to the 'BF doesn't work this way' thread? While this does affect Greadal's fate, if we start debating BF here we'll never see the end of it.

[Smalley]

To read the story as is, Graendal was obliterated. The balefire burnt her thread back to before she put the compulsion on Ramshalan. Yes there could be a twist and she comes back but Rand was told that balefire was the only way to be certain that a dead forsaken could not return. Told by one of the forsaken but for all that I think she is gone.

To me the purpose of this execution within the context of the book is to demonstrate that Rand was falling into the dark and did not care how many died. In fact I believe the one of the main purposes of the book was to show the continued decline of Rand. This culminated in the confrontation with his (step) father. The ending of the book being him throwing off this darkness and integrating Lews Therin and Rand two sides of the same person into one. The next book should show Rand as a saner individual certainly up to the point when he is blinded.

[Bob T Dwarf]

yoniy0 -

 

You naively assume we ever see the end to any topic around here :D

 

The one thing that has been and always will be true for these boards is that no question is ever really settled.  No matter what logic is presented either for or against Graendal's death, somebody will disagree.  Then once the author finally settles the question, there will be disagreement about that.

 

Dragonmount - where people will bicker for eternity ;)

 

Since Balefire was the instrument used to destroy the fortress and all within it, it necessarily has to be part of the discussion about what happened as a result.  Ramshalan continued to exist.  That tells us that the balefire either only burned back to shortly after he left the fortress or that it burned back to before he ever arrived there.  The use of the Choeden Kal and the sheer volume of balefire used along with the disappearance of the Compulsion weave argue that the fortress burned back to before he arrived.  That being true, then Graendal never actually saw him, never spoke to him, and never learned that she was in any danger.  Thus, she is dead. 

 

Whether Sanderson has chosen to fill us in on what she had been doing before she died remains an open question pending the arrival of Towers of Midnight.

[Luckers]

Edit: Updated the whole 'Did Graendal Die' section of the original post. I think it's much more concise, and I hope the line between deduction and conjecture is more clear.

[Snarf]

There is the little detail of Rand being a ta'veren.  The Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills, and it uses ta'veren to aid in that weaving.  And, Rand is the strongest ta'veren in recorded history.  Stronger than even the Hawkwing.  I think that Graendal was simply caught in his ta'veren chance altering influence.  He affects chance, causing people (threads) to say or do things that there may only be a small chance that that person would choose to do so.  Sure, she wants to run.  It's her nature.  Flight over fight.  But a dill-hole was sent to her.  While she very well may have dredged the whole conversation with Rand prior to him being dumped on her lawn, he doesn't know that Rand is planning any imminent attack.  So, perhaps she perceived no threat, and decided to send him back as another set of eyes and ears.

 

Graendal was feeling rather proud of herself, having just turned Rand al'Thor's emissary into her own puppet.  Now, with a tool in place, my goal to cause him pain of heart is ready to come to....  What's that glow?

[firstfishman]

She is dead, and so is Asmo... Too little story left to be bringing people back from the dead.

[Durinax]

She is dead, and so is Asmo... Too little story left to be bringing people back from the dead.

theres enoguh unexplained stuff throughout the story to have someone come back. and it wouldnt be bringing them back from the dead if lets say graendal fled immediately, lets say for example she laid on the compulsion and got straight to the important stuff, "who sent you" "how did you get here" "how are you getting back"

then leave a command to wait 5 minutes and head back reporting success and travel away

[firstfishman]

We know from her POV memories that "Minds do not recover from that level of compulsion" "No way of recovering them"

 

The reson RJ/BS had a Graendal POV shortly before her death was so that we couldd see her refrain from compulsing Moridin's messenger because she would not be able to recover him and she didd not want to test moridin's anger.

 

Why would she be able to recover Ramsalan (sp) and not Moridin's messenger? Her weave was "The same as before" from Nynaeve's mention of it. Nynaeve spent hours copying those exact weaves when she took them off Mort, she would not miss a slight difference. She always remembers weaves once she has seen them.

 

Graendal is dead dead dead.

[Luckers]

We know from her POV memories that "Minds do not recover from that level of compulsion" "No way of recovering them"

 

The reson RJ/BS had a Graendal POV shortly before her death was so that we couldd see her refrain from compulsing Moridin's messenger because she would not be able to recover him and she didd not want to test moridin's anger.

 

Why would she be able to recover Ramsalan (sp) and not Moridin's messenger? Her weave was "The same as before" from Nynaeve's mention of it. Nynaeve spent hours copying those exact weaves when she took them off Mort, she would not miss a slight difference. She always remembers weaves once she has seen them.

 

That's not actually true. Nynaeve states that the Compulsion IS different from what was used on the boy. And Graendal considers taking Moridin's messenger for a pet, not simply questioning him. We've seen Graendal use compulsion in questioning before, and she does not make it strong enough to cause lasting harm.

[Demiandre]

Schroedinger's cat. Either dead or alive. I think Grandal is the only person knowing (in the story). And even she has only 50% of chance to be able to say so.

 

But what is different from the cat's story, is that there isn't random chance but rational speculation possible. She escaped or stayed.

 

And indeed, Sammael comments that Graendal often overpowers her Compulsion, but he remember that she can be very subtle when needed. We see it as she refrains from compulsing Moridin messenger. She think of what can come out of her using Compulsion. I don't believe she directly used Compulsion on Ramshalan. But as soon as he announced himsekf, I believe she decided to question, not turn him into a puppet. Which explains the difference Nynaeve feels between Ramshalan and Kerb. The more subtle weaving she.put on the former indicates that she haf many possubilities of interaction set, which wasn't needed with Kerb.

From then, I think she didn't plan for balefire. Why wove a complicated and subtle compulsion if you know it will be erased (through a proxy weave or her directly).

If it is to trap them into believing she is confident, it seems more logical to me to set a similar compulsion on Ramshalan as the one on Kerb, thus making her "touch" recognizeable - if, of course, someone already delved one of her puppet, which is safe for her to assume as Rand discovered Natrin's Barrow.

 

I think she is dead, but there is enough holes in this whole plot that if she came back, I won't be disappointed.

[Crael123]

I think she is dead.