Jump to content

DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

What's In The Future For Graendal?


Luckers
 Share

Recommended Posts

What's In The Future For Graendal?

 

We know from Brandon that there will at least be mentions of Graendal in ToM. Given the unfulfilled aspect of the mission Moridin gives her in the tGS prologue we should perhaps have expected that anyway. So in this thread I'll try and cover how she might affect the future story. I'll start by covering the question of whether she survived, and then move on to the ways in which she might (dead or alive) play a part.

 

Did Graendal Die?

 

Given we never saw a body, and Brandon refused to confirm whether or not she died, it was expectable that people would start theorising about her potentially living--but is there any reason to do so beyond simple nostalgia?

 

Something Strange...

 

The point that may suggest that things might have gone differently than they appeared to lies in the question--why didn't Graendal flee? Rand himself states that...

 

"She will vanish the moment I threaten her, running to one of a dozen other refuges she is sure to have set up."

 

[tGS; 37, A Force of Light]

 

Through Ramshalan she knows that Rand not only knows precisely where she is, but is thinking about the possibility of killing her at that very moment. Even if she thinks that Rand was playing by her rules--as Rand wished her to--why doesn't she run anyway? By everything that is said about her, she should have--unless she had reason to think she knew exactly what he planned. And that's the oddity here. Nothing in what Rand gave her via Ramshalan should have been strong enough proof that he intended to play with her that she would disreguard the danger of the Dragon knowing her exact location.

 

She should have run. Why didn't she?

 

Why Didn't Graendal Run?

 

The explanation I gave above serves--she would have stayed if she had reason to think she knew Rand's plans, and would be able to counter them safely. So if she didn't have enough to be certain that Rand was only going to play with her, could she instead have been expecting the attack? And if so did she have clues to lead her to the specific nature of the attack Rand intended--the balefire and the compulsion test? Firstly, we have this...

 

"I have to peer into her eyes, see into her soul, and know that it's her that I face and not some decoy. I have to do that without frightening her into running. How? How can I kill a foe who is more clever than myself, a foe who is impossible to surprise, yet who is also unwilling to confront me?"

[tGS; 37, A Force of Light]

 

Whether he meant to or not, he actually lays down his desires there. Specifically he wants a way to kill Graendal before she has a chance to run, and yet ensure it leaves evidence that she did in fact die.

 

Still, that's fairly generic. If Graendal realised there was to be an attack, and only had that, I'd say she still would have run. Too many attack routes, no idea which one Rand might choose, and thus no way to be certain enough that she could foil it and survive. So is there anything that might have directed Graendal to Rand's method?

 

Why Did Rand Send Ramshalan

 

So, acting under the premise of this theory--that Graendal was looking for the attack, and planning how to oppose it--then there is a question that raises itself--why did Rand send Ramshalan? It wasn't to ensure she was there, because she could easily have travelled the second he was out the door. It only served to alert Graendal that Rand knew where she was, and thus that she was in danger--which raises the chance that she would flee, one of the two things Rand stated in front of Ramshalan that he wished to forestall.

 

So if this violated one of Rand's desires, logically would it not being doing so in order to serve the second. In effect it points out, should Graendal have been looking for the attack, that Ramshalan was to serve as the proof of her death.

 

The Stepping Stone To Rands Plans: Compulsion and Balefire

 

That idea that Ramshalan was sent to become the proof of her death opens up the plan. What would be assured if Rand sent Ramshalan to Graedal--she'd compel him. How would that serve as proof of her death? It gives Rand a recent piece of her work to test should she be balefired--and how unlikely would it be for her to consider that Rand would use balefire on her? Not very--he's used it before; it's highly destructive and cannot be shielded against, which fulfils his requirements that he be able to kill her before she can run.

 

Of course, predicting balefire as the weapon, and predicting that he'd balefire the entire palace are two different things. However it has been pointed out that Graendal was charged with making psychological warfare on Rand--that would necessitate studying him, which would mean that she would have a very, very good understanding of what how far he was gone, and thus what he was capable of.

 

Irrespective, she needn't have actually predicted he'd balefire the palace. She could have made a decoy masked in illusion for him to personally balefire. For her to have lived we don't need for her to have guessed everything, just enough, and once Graendal began preparing to meet an attack its next to impossible she didn't consider the possibility of balefire--this is a woman who used human blood on her letters to Inturalde despite doubting any Third Ager could tell the difference between human and animal blood--she fills her plans with redundancies.

 

Defeating The Compulsion Test

 

An Unravelling Web

 

The first method I've seen suggested for how she might achieve this is in having tied off the web so it could unravel on its own. There is the question of why Ramshalan is completely undamaged, but then Nynaeve states that this web is lighter, or more subtle.

 

"Yes. Rand, he's under a heavy Compulsion. There are a lot of weaves here. Not as bad as the chandler's apprentice, or maybe just more subtle."

 

Graendal knows everything there is to know about Compulsion, and she would know how to place a compulsion that could unravel without harming the individual. It likely wouldn't be as effective in the purpose of compelling Ramshalan, but then the suggested purpose here wasn't compelling Ramshalan, but deceiving Rand.

 

Of course this raises the question of timing. How did Graendal set the weave to unravel at precisely the moment that Rand balefired the palace? I've seen three answers to this: The first is that she held a inverted web which she released when she saw the palace destroyed, thereby unravelling the web. The second option is that she set the web to unravel after being delved--this is a reasonably logical idea--if Graendal perceived the compulsion would be the test, then she'd perceive it would be tested twice. Before and after. They test it before, the compulsion dissolved, Rand balefires, and then they test it again and what do you know--all gone.

 

The third option is that she set the weave to unravel in the face of balefire. We know from [KoD; 3, In The Gardens] that Graendal has at least some understanding of what the effects of disturbances in the pattern can be, so it’s not impossible she set the weave up to collapse in the face of the warping that resulted from the use of balefire. Note that Nynaeve says that "There are a lot of weaves here", and that she clearly doesn't understand them all. One could easily be designed to trigger and unravel in the face of the pattern rippling.

 

Channeler Sacrificed

 

The second explanation for the disappearance of the compulsion runs that Graendal either trained another woman and let her weave the compulsion, or else linked with her and used only her power to weave the compulsion (something we know to be possible from both the a'dam, and Narishma in [WH; 54, With the Choedan Kal]). I suspect if either is the case then the latter is more likely given the skill displayed in the compulsion.

 

After that Graendal chucks a runner, and leaves the hapless woman to her fate (likely disguised by Mirror of Mists as Graendal in case of an attack, with compelled commands to ensure she dies satisfactorily at Rand's hands), thereby successfully convincing Rand he's succeeded in killing her, when in fact he has only killed a decoy. In some ways it could be said he gave her the idea himself.

 

Of course this raises the problem of where Graendal came by a channeler so swiftly. I've seen two ideas suggested. One, chronologically this occurs after Aran'gar and Delana flee the rebels. Given Aran'gar's new alliance with Graendal (which Graendal helpfully mentions in the prologue), its not inconceivable that she sought out Graendal after fleeing, and that it is Delana who gets supernuked by Rand.

 

Two, Graendal gathers the powerful and the beautiful. It's not inconceivable then that she has snagged an Aes Sedai, Wise One, Windfinder or Ayyad. The woman herself would be under heavy compulsion, but that doesn't stop you channeling as far as we know, and women gain none of the protections from compulsion that men gain from saidin, so it wouldn't be a risk for Graendal to keep one under the level of compulsion she places on her pets.

 

Conclusions

 

In conclusion, that she did not run in the beginning is strange, and does indicate she thought she knew precisely what was going to occur, and thought she could deal with it. In contradiction to that, what Ramshalan told her seems to contain little in the way of proof that Rand merely meant to play with her, as Rand suggests was her deduction. Thus the fact that she did not run is a problem. From there Ramshalan's presence and knowledge could well have guided her to figuring out the specific nature of the assault.

 

Ultimately the only real evidence to suggest that the stated course of events--that she died--did not occur is in the relative oddities of her providing Rand with precisely what he wanted despite being made aware of that by Ramshalan, and that she did not run immediately upon realising Rand knew where she was. Her surviving does follow a logical progression, but by and large it is far more likely that events fell out precisely as they appeared to, and Graendal is dead.

 

A Note on Sentiment About That Scene

 

Whilst prepping for this thread I came across the sentiment time and again that if she survived it would make that scene pointless--undo all the work it establishes. I just thought whilst I'm here I'll give my perception on that issue.

 

Firstly, I don't think that scene was about Graendal's death. If it had been then we would have seen more of her during tGS so as to pay off that scene when it occurred. That's not to say she didn't die in that scene, just that her death was not the purpose of it. Rand's actions were. The darkness of his decision, and subsequently the darkness within him.

 

And I do not think that would in any way be invalidated if she lives. In fact I think it might even be added to. Consider; Rand did this terrible, monstrous thing... and achieved nothing. Even Nynaeve considers that it might be worth it given it removed Graendal--but what if it didn't? There'd be a beautiful sort of tragedy in that, I think. Rand sacrificing the last of his morals for the good of the War... and it not being enough.

 

I mean consider, Rand's arc was that his instability and inner darkness led him to failure again and again. With the Seanchan, with Arad Domon, nearly with Tam, and quite nearly with the entire world, too. How better to underline that fact than that the one truly monstrous thing he did achieved nothing? I'm not saying it’s nice for Rand, and I can see why people might want for something good to come out of his darkness, but thematically I like the potency of this much better. It underlines everything wrong with his personality, and emphasises the good that will result from Veins of Gold.

 

That may just be me though.  ;D

 

What's In The Future For Graendal If She Did Die?

 

What's this you say? She's dead by balefire, she ain't go no future!

 

Perhaps but the ToM timeline overlaps tGS, which provides us with a rare opportunity for Graendal to still be present in ToM. According to Steven Cooper's timeline she meets Moridin and is assigned the task of making Rand suffer on Adar 2 and Rand kills her on Saven 11. That's 37 days in which she is unaccounted.

 

That combined with Brandon's refusal to 'Toast' her, with his comment that Graendal name will be mentioned in ToM, and a general feeling of a lack of fulfilment in her character makes me think that we will actually see Graendal on screen and active during ToM, up to the moment of her death. Of course it could just be that we'll see effects she set in motion--but I’m gonna back that we actually see her.

 

What Might She Be Up To In This Time?

 

Elayne. Min, she never goes near, though I suppose she may have set in traps that can still be sprung. Aviendha is possible too, given she leaves for Rhuidean a week (10 days) before Graendal's death. But my guess is still Elayne.

 

Consider. Elayne was known to be romantically involved with Rand in the Stone of Tear, and is now pregnant apparently to a man she's since had locked up and beaten, a man who informed the Shadow he was not the baby-daddy (though whether that information was passed on remains up in the air), but even if it wasn't, Graendal's precisely the person to connect the dots. Additionally in tGS we know Elayne experiences a sense of relief so great Rand could feel it in Arad Domon--why? With the Throne secure weeks since, why is she feeling relief?

 

Finally, Brandon refused to comment on Forsaken being around Elayne, making a comment about how so many wondered where Demandred was, and he wasn't going to alter that debate. I think this might have been very clever misdirection on his part. I think if it truly was Demandred he would have RAFO'd flat out.

 

So that's my pick. Elayne.

 

Non-Mission Related

 

I suspect we'll have at least one interaction with Aran'gar. And potentially an Asmotastic revelation. Finally, if I am correct on this, I think it would be a pre-requisite that we be in her POV when she dies. I don't know why I feel so strongly about this, and obviously I could be wrong, but if you split Graendal's arc between tGS and ToM, then the scene in tGS has to be about Rand's decision, and therefore we have to have a scene in ToM that is about her death.

 

What's In The Future For Graendal If She Didn't Die?

 

I still think Elayne. But it opens up the doors for everything under the sun, with no time limit established by her death. If she isn't dead I revert to the old 'Aviendha Will Kill Her' Theory.

 

So What's My Stance On This?

 

I recently twittered Kathana telling her Graendal lives. I meant it in the sense that I think she will be alive at times in the future books. Perhaps she survived Natrin's Barrow, but right now I'm siding more with the idea that she died.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 199
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Im not convinvced at all she died and I wasnt from the very second I read that scene. Its not that I think she anticipated his tactics; I just think that by now the Forsaken meetings have shown them begin to understand that if Rand has a Forsaken in sight he will move heaven and earth to kill them. More than that, the Forsaken know by now that Rand knows stuff only Lewis should. I dont see Graendal as an exception to that. By the time Ramshalan shows up in her house she finds out that Rand is outside, obviously watching her. The Dragon Reborn, the strongest tool the Pattern has to offer, is stood outside my house. Watching me.

 

I dont care that Rand dealt with the situation like Moridin might have. The plan is so simple that anyone could see through it; he sends a messenger expecting that messenger to come back Compelled in some way. She suited Rands need for a sign, but in the time it took Rand to figure out what to do she has more time for herself.

 

Im betting Compulsion can be conditioned to vanish after being examined. Im also certain of other ways around it. As you said Luckers, unravelling weaves are possible. Plus a Warder bond can be passed on, a weave can be duplicated onto someone who cant channel, yada yada. Graendal may have a ter'angreal that tells her when a man channels, so she could even have been maintaining the Compulsion and released when Rand drew from the Choeden Kal.  Who knows? There are plenty of ways for Ramshalans Compulsion to not be as straightforward as we think.

 

I see little reason to believe Rand killed her.

 

P.S. Graendal observed Moridin looking like Rand in the prologue. Whether that makes it easier for her to anticipate his frame of mind I dont know, but I still dont think she needed that to figure out Rands first shot at a mastermind.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My personal feelings aside (oh, what the heck. I think she's dead. You could probably see that anyway from what I had to say), one problem I see with most of these theories is that Graendal must have had those precautions in place BEFORE she Compelled Ramshalan.

You can't logically offer Rand's conversation with Ramshalan as a way for Graendal to anticipate the use of Compulsion as a figurative 'litmus paper', since for her weave to dissipate the way it did, leaving Ramshalan unharmed, she would have to weave it a certain way to begin with. Yet, she won't be able to extract the relevant information from Ramshalan UNTIL she Compelled him. It's a vicious magic circle, it is.

 

So, what parts of that information would she be able to get from him before Compelling him? Certainly, that Rand sent him there. Maybe that she's to help Rand combat an enemy, as well, at which point she should suspect foul play. But that Rand considered that enemy supremely clever and unwilling to face him, thus requiring a very special kind of plot to bring down? I don't think so. Ramshalan would hardly admit to a weakness of his current boss' in such circumstances. And most certainly not that Rand still stood outside and waited, even Ramshalan didn't know that (he thought that the gateway will simply remain open for him).

 

But the most important question is this: would she have waited before Compelling him? Do we know her to hesitate before opting for Compulsion when faced with a mere messenger (we do know that she's capable of subtle Compulsion, but would she bother with just anyone)?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You can't logically offer Rand's conversation with Ramshalan as a way for Graendal to anticipate the use of Compulsion as a figurative 'litmus paper', since for her weave to dissipate the way it did, leaving Ramshalan unharmed, she would have to weave it a certain way to begin with. Yet, she won't be able to extract the relevant information from Ramshalan UNTIL she Compelled him. It's a vicious magic circle, it is.

 

You're forgetting the obvious. The amount of Compulsion needed to question someone isn't sufficient to cause damage. Not even Graendal uses enough to cause damage in simple questionings, and we have seen that before. Not even with Cyndane and Moghedian did she do so.

 

It is only when she decides to make someone a pet that she works strong enough compulsion to cause damage. She can be wasteful, but she is not stupid.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

First, I have a feeling that if she did die, which I believe is what happened, it won't be confirmed until AMoL.

 

Second, if Graendal did the Delana linking she would have had to travel away after weaving the compulsion and then the balefire burned away the entire palace to a point in time before the compulsion was created leads to the question of what happens when the floor ceases to exist before you walk through your gateway?

 

Third:

Graendal knows Rand doesnt underestimate her from that alone. Moghedien wove Compulsion on Nynaeve IIRC, with no permanent damage or previous preparation.

 

Moghedien seemed to prefer not to cause permanent damage, likely to avoid suspicion while Graendal seems to enjoy doing so.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Second, if Graendal did the Delana linking she would have had to travel away after weaving the compulsion and then the balefire burned away the entire palace to a point in time before the compulsion was created leads to the question of what happens when the floor ceases to exist before you walk through your gateway?

 

Nothing, apparently. After all the same applies to Ramshalan whether or not she died, though he simply walked out.

 

I can provide a guess answer for why that is the case--specifically the same answer as applies to why the bracelets were still in the same place when Rand balefired Semirhage and Elza applies to this. Elza had run for the door, yet the bracelet dropped from precisely where she was when she was balefired, not even a few steps back. The bracelet, even though the one who had carried it there, was not an integral part of the balefired person, and therefore seemingly outside of the alterations its absense made on the time line.

 

I don't pretend to understand why this is, and yet when Rahvin murders everyone that was cut back, but it is. Perhaps if Elza had made a specific action toward the bracelet--say trying to remove it--that would be different, and the action undone. But unintentional interactions are different.

 

It must be the same here. Unintentional interaction versus action. One inside the balefire effect, the other outside it.

 

 

Third:

 

Quote

Graendal knows Rand doesnt underestimate her from that alone. Moghedien wove Compulsion on Nynaeve IIRC, with no permanent damage or previous preparation.

 

 

Moghedien seemed to prefer not to cause permanent damage, likely to avoid suspicion while Graendal seems to enjoy doing so.

 

No, again, when simply questioning Graendal is very careful. We see her with Cyndane and Moghedien, not to mention countless people that 'Lady Basne' inteviews, and again with Moridin's messanger. She is cautious to use that much compulsion untill she is sure she wants them as a pet. More cautious, in fact, than Moghedien, who once does accidentally injure an innkeeper by using too strong a compulsion. We've never seen Graendal make that mistake, and it seems far more likely if she was going to slip it would have been against Moghedien and Cyndane in that tense a situation.

 

And outside a mistake Graendal doesn't do it unless she chooses to. Ramshalan is not powerful enough for to choose to, and presented other risks besides.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Second, if Graendal did the Delana linking she would have had to travel away after weaving the compulsion and then the balefire burned away the entire palace to a point in time before the compulsion was created leads to the question of what happens when the floor ceases to exist before you walk through your gateway?

 

Nothing, apparently. After all the same applies to Ramshalan whether or not she died, though he simply walked out.

 

I can provide a guess answer for why that is the case--specifically the same answer as applies to why the bracelets were still in the same place when Rand balefired Semirhage and Elza applies to this. Elza had run for the door, yet the bracelet dropped from precisely where she was when she was balefired, not even a few steps back. The bracelet, even though the one who had carried it there, was not an integral part of the balefired person, and therefore seemingly outside of the alterations its absense made on the time line.

 

I don't pretend to understand why this is, and yet when Rahvin murders everyone that was cut back, but it is. Perhaps if Elza had made a specific action toward the bracelet--say trying to remove it--that would be different, and the action undone. But unintentional interactions are different.

 

It must be the same here. Unintentional interaction versus action. One inside the balefire effect, the other outside it.

 

 

2 points. First, Balefire burns threads out of the pattern. The threads of the pattern are people, not objects. People cease to exist and their actions are undone but inanimate objects are simply destroyed. I think.

 

Second, the bracelets are made of cuendillar. Maybe that is the difference?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 points. First, Balefire burns threads out of the pattern. The threads of the pattern are people, not objects. People cease to exist and their actions are undone but inanimate objects are simply destroyed. I think.

 

Nope.

 

Brandon: Everything has a thread, not just souls.  Even a stone in a wall has a thread in the Pattern.

 

Second, the bracelets are made of cuendillar. Maybe that is the difference?

 

No, once again a Brandon confirmation.

 

Question: (something regarding the bruises remaining on Min's neck, and if this was a typo)

Brandon: No, that is correct.  Rand caused the bruises, so balefiring Semirhage would not make them go away.  Balefire only removes paradoxes caused by the direct actions of the one who is balefired. And the bracelets remained after Rand balefired [semirhage and Elza] because they weren't really part of Semirhage or Elza.

 

It remains uncertain as to whether the copies of the Domination Band are cuendillar, but I think it seems likely. Even so they should have moved back in time--not been destroyed, but altered.

 

Not that it matters. The same effect would have made problems for Ramshalan if it was going to for Graendal. It didn't.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You're forgetting the obvious. The amount of Compulsion needed to question someone isn't sufficient to cause damage.

I was, you're right. Still, my point stands. Not causing lasting damage to one's mind isn't the same as leaving no trace, not even a residue. Now, I have no definite proof that normal use of Compulsion should leave traces, true, but if I had to guess I'd say that it does. And a residue is a different story altogether - I have no doubt that you should be able to sense one if you searched for it (but then again, I can offer no proof that Nyneave did).

All in all, I have to admit that it's plausible Graendal escaped, but I still think that she didn't.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You're forgetting the obvious. The amount of Compulsion needed to question someone isn't sufficient to cause damage.

I was, you're right. Still, my point stands. Not causing lasting damage to one's mind isn't the same as leaving no trace, not even a residue. Now, I have no definite proof that normal use of Compulsion should leave traces, true, but if I had to guess I'd say that it does. And a residue is a different story altogether - I have no doubt that you should be able to sense one if you searched for it (but then again, I can offer no proof that Nyneave did).

All in all, I have to admit that it's plausible Graendal escaped, but I still think that she didn't.

 

I don't think I do, either. I waver.

 

However on this point, compulsion would only remain if it were still acting a purpose. Graendal's questioning compulsion would therefore not remain, which brings us back to the unravelling web points that I covered in the first post. You are correct that it would leave a residue, but Nynaeve does not have the Talent to read residues.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

An Unravelling Web

 

I had a similar theory that a web of Compulsion could have been placed in an entry way to her audience hall that resets itself once an unsuspecting victim had passed through it, capturing any who enter her presence. Rand Balefires the Fortress and destroys the Web trap removing the Compulsion.

 

 

But if she did survive, it's anyone's guess on how she accomplished this, I particularly like the idea of Moridin whisking her to safety. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Remember Grendal has no way of knowing Rands plan.  Rand purposely picks the biggest bumbling idiot he can find.  Sends him off telling him he needs allies, go see if who is at the palace can help.  Grendal knowing he is from Rand has to compel him (you could say she was compeled to compel him).  She doesn't know her hideaway is compromisied and even if she tried to get information from Rands messenger he is to dumb to even understand he is being duped.  Grendal is toast.  People who know they are smarter than everyone else are easy to fool.  You just have to let them see through your ruse.  Once they see what they expect they never look deeper.

 

Also, Rand being willing to balefire an entire palace full of people is completely out of character.  He hasn't even been willing to kill a woman up until now.  No way to expect that even if she thinks he might know where she is.  Which she doesn't.

 

I can't say I loved the way she died after all the build up she had in the last several books, but I am pretty sure she is toast. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think people need to think: whats the point of Graendal beeing alive? She serves more purpose dead, the way Rand killed her was a pivitol moment for him, and now Graendals dead, thats another forsaken down. I think shes dead, but we will 100% see a PoV from her in the next book ending with her dying, but we will get something quite important out of it, maybe she gets a visit from Taim impersonating Sammael

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree with Otarin.

 

Setting a person up to be some kind of twisted human litmus test, ruthlessly killing a woman when he can typically barely stand to put a woman in danger, indiscriminately murdering hundreds of innocent human beings in the blink of an eye, and using balefire on a scale that none of the Forsaken would even be comfortable using are absolutely out of character for Rand.

 

Graendal's confidence in what she thinks she "knows" was her Achilles heel in this instance.  There was no way, as far as I'm concerned, that she could have known how drastically Rand had changed after the Domination Band incident.  (Does she even know about that?)

 

If she were actively trying to think 10 steps ahead of "Old Rand," she would be expecting something completely different from what she actually got from "Cuendillar Rand."  Even if she took in to account any transference between Lews Therin and Rand, she still wouldn't have been able to predict what happened - what Rand did was beyond the pale for Lews Therin, too.

 

I think that was one of the main points of that scene.  Rand was the only person who knew exactly how different he had become.  That was his only edge.

 

He lulled Graendal in to playing a hand with someone who wasn't even there.  She made her strategy and placed her bet based on the opponent she knew.  And while she was sitting at the table staring into his face, confident, confirming to herself that she indeed had a good read on him . . . the dealer pulled out a gun and shot her in the face.

 

That's pretty much how Rand describes it in that very scene, and I think he got the right of it.   

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Setting a person up to be some kind of twisted human litmus test, ruthlessly killing a woman when he can typically barely stand to put a woman in danger, indiscriminately murdering hundreds of innocent human beings in the blink of an eye, and using balefire on a scale that none of the Forsaken would even be comfortable using are absolutely out of character for Rand.

 

Yup, completely agree. The Forsaken all knew that Rand hated killing women. Heck, he had even captured Semihrage instead of just killing her. There is no way that Graendal could assume that Rand would all of a sudden act completely out of character himself and balefire the entire palace down. I was even immensely surprised he did that, and I was reading his thoughts the entire book! It was something that was meant to be shocking and unpredictable and show just how far Rand had fallen; which would have been impossible for any other character to predict.

 

Personally, I think she is dead and thats that. She is clever, but not psychic. However, as Luckers pointed out, she had enough time to put events into motion. I wouldnt be surprised if to some extent she gets the last laugh.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Luckers,

 

You are very convincing.  I really like your well thought-out threads.

 

Whether she's dead or not, I agree that the scene was more about Rand's actions and less about Graendal's death.

 

I also hope you're right about her making an appearance or two or three in ToM pre-palace nuke.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't get why people think she's alive.

 

She's dead. Get over it.

 

Here's the thing. There is only 1 way, possibly 2, to take out the Forsaken forever.

1. Balefire.

2. Turn them back to the light against the Dark One - (Never been done, might not be possible)

 

So rather then just have Rand constantly balefireing Forsaken in battle – which would be repetitive and boring, Sanderson and Jordan have come up with something more clever.

Who read that chapter and wasn't impressed by how clever Rand was?

 

These books are going to end. Realize that some plots need to be finished.

 

Besides, Rand did learn pain of heart - from Semi.

We were supposed to fear for Rand, and Grendals mission made us fear for him.

We couldn't suspect Semi would teach him pain of heart when she was trapped.

 

As for the second way to take out a Forsaken. I expect it's going to happen. I thought it did with Asmodean, but I was wrong.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I hope that we see more of Graendal in the next book, but NOT that she didn't die / got resurrected. I'm rather tired of the whole resurrection boulevard plotline - reminds me too much of Dallas.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I hope that we see more of Graendal in the next book, but NOT that she didn't die / got resurrected. I'm rather tired of the whole resurrection boulevard plotline - reminds me too much of Dallas.

 

You don't have to worry about that methinks.  If she did die by balefire, she can't be resurrected in this Age by the DO, and if she didn't die in that scene, then she's still alive, so she has no need to be resurrected.  Either way, I doubt we'll see Graendal resurrected.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Didn't some forsaken mention ,or was it someone else, that Graendal would bolt at the first sign of Rand. That is enough to convince me she ain't toast. Also it could of been Aran'gar who laid the compulsion. She decided to ally with Greandal. Maybe she was there and Greandal was off pet shopping. She doesn't spend all her time in the castle just most of her time.

 

I must apologize for the lack of effort that went into this post but I can't be arsed right now trying to come up with more conclusive evidence to show why I think she has survived and knows how to carry on. I'm just so very tired  :'(

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well if Graendal was so smart, then probably her best bet would've been to try and rehabilitate Rand although not too directly.  Apparently that was one of the big things she was known for in the AoL.  Not that I think she cared about him at all, or was contemplating trying to switch back to the Light, but from a self preservation perpective it's in her interest to steer him out of murder women mode.  That and there's more opportunities to hurt him with a cleaner slate versus being 99% broken already.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Would Moridin have warned Graendel that Rand was willing to use balefire and kill women? On one hand, Graendel has an important mission ruining Rand's plans in Arad Doman so he knows despair, and Moridin  gave her that mission himself. But on the other, once she's disposed of enough merchants, why not sacrifice her just like Semirhage, if it pushes Rand closer to the edge? After all, the expression is to sacrifice "spires" not just a spire!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Compulsion test may be flawed, in and of itself. One thing to be noted, LTT is not an expert on Compulsion, he was a good sort who didn't use those weaves and wouldn't know the nitty-gritty of how it worked. He also sucks at healing.

 

Quite apart from the saidin-saidar issue, he makes this quite clear when he's chatting to Nyn about the torturer's apprentice.

 

Now in the TFoH prologue Rahvin in Caemlyn uses a version of Compulsion that dissipates a little while after he lets the unnamed young Red AS go back out into the street from the Caemlyn Palace. "He tied off the strands of Spirit lightly, so they would evaporate from her mind shortly after she reached the street"

 

Graendal may have used something similar. It's not unlikely. A Domani Lord appears in her secret hideout as a messenger, she's not sure what she intends to do with him. So she uses a time-limited form of Compulsion to pull stuff from his head (she can after all, make it heavy-duty later if she so desires).

Then she decides to let him go after mulling the conversation over.

She lets him go and does a runner (or not!).

 

Nyn examines Ramshalam first time before the Compulsion has naturally dissipated, and by her own admission is not very sure about the details of what she finds, except that there is some form of Compulsion.

Then Rand balefires the castle, and Nyn examines him again, after an altercation with Rand, which means some significant passage of time between first and second exam.

By then, the Compulsion has naturally dissipated.

 

If it happened this way, the compulsion test tells you nothing about whether Graendal (or any proxy who actually laid on the big C) is alive or not. 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share


×
×
  • Create New...